Peru Fights Yale To Reclaim Artifacts

CBS Evening News: Yale Locked In Dispute With Andean Nation Over Incan Artifacts

(CBS)  More than half-a-millennium old, some ancient Incan artifacts from the Machu Picchu ruins in Peru have sparked quite the present day international dispute, reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod.

Yale University has them. Peru wants them back.

"Right now Yale believes that it has clear title to them," says Barbara Shailor, deputy provost for the arts at Yale.

"Why do the artifacts belong back here in Peru?" asks historian Mariana Mould de Pease. "Because they were made here."

When Yale professor Hiram Bingham rediscovered Machu Picchu early last century, he carted thousands of pieces of pottery, jewelry, even bone fragments, back to Yale's campus in New Haven, Conn. Peru says it was a temporary arrangement for 18 months.

"The Peruvian government said, you take these artifacts because you want to do research," de Pease said. "The understanding was you give them back. That was in 1916."

As with any dispute, both sides are looking at the same set of events and drawing two very different pictures. But here's what's not in dispute, not here in Peru nor on the Yale campus. When it comes to the bulk of the artifacts, Yale doesn't want to give them back. When the Peruvian government asked for the artifacts back, de Pease said Yale's response was "arrogant."

"They tried to convince Peru that we were not able to conduct serious research, that we were not able to take care of those artifacts," she said.

"We believe we've been good stewards for the last almost 100 years and that we want to see that stewardship continue for the next 100 years and beyond," Shailor said.

As often happens, Axelrod reports, the strong feelings are leading to strong words, like looting.

"Because looting is not only taking away and hiding the objects you are taking with you, looting is saying you can't take care of the things, that's why I keep them," de Pease says.

"This is not loot," Shailor says. "It was not the spoils of war. And the conditions under which they were brought to New Haven, I believe, were legitimate ones."

Yale has offered to return some of the artifacts. But not nearly enough for the Peruvian government, which wants them all back in time for Machu Picchu's centenary in 2011. If not, it has threatened a modern day remedy - a lawsuit.

[pvperson]

Is Peru going to ask Spain to return all the gold they took?

[pvperson]

Are the Egyptians going to ask for all the obelisks back from around the world?

[pvperson]

Is China going to ask for all their relics back from museums around the world?

[pvperson]

Once you start with "returns" from museums, where does it end?

[smurfcrusher]

"Is Peru going to ask Spain to return all the gold they took?"

Posted by PVperson

Some of it, yes. A recently discovered treasure galleon may yet benefit the descendants of the victims who mined the gold.

Good for Peru. Just because Yale wants to have a wonderful museum does not justify a unilateral change in the agreement that allowed the artifacts to be removed.

It''s completely irrelevant if Peru can take care of the artifacts or not. It''s their property - they can burn it to ashes in a ritual if they so choose.

So....if I see a sweet antique car across the street, and want to "borrow" it to research part numbers, can I keep it if I say I can take better care of it?

Of course not. It doesn''t take a rocket scientist to see Yale is abusing a position of trust. They need to be honorable and give Peru its rightful property back.

[fake-id-2009]

Typical elitist attitude: "I don''t care where they came from or who they belong to...I''ve got them and I''m keeping them."

[smurfcrusher]

Yale''s unfortunate stance will harm it in the long run, since others will see their behavior and deny them the ability to perform research on their artifacts.

[anillafield]

It was looting. The visiting archaeologists picked up anything they want from the ruins and sent them to the US. The basic assumption at the time was exactly the same as the basic assumptions all of the Western researchers made from the very beginning: they assumed that the non-white natives are not qualified to research anything about their past because they are uneducated and inherently weak-minded, and the very fact the natives are willing to work for the researchers as they steal or destroy the local cultural artifacts proved to them that the native were not qualified. Funny thing is that the researchers didn%u2019t make the same assumptions about any of the European archaeological sites in France or Germany.

The attitude displayed by Yale is exactly the same attitude that has been the norm for all of the Western researchers for centuries. And, many of the stolen cultural artifacts are still prominently displayed in the American and European museums.

[downtowner97]

It''s too bad Iraq''s artifacts weren''t in England with Egypt''s. Violent people can''t take care of their own histories. As for Peru''s stuff, it seems like the best solution is to cut the baby in half. There must be duplications in the collection.

[rf35]

Hiram Bingham discovered nothing. He was led to the ruins by a local boy from a near-by village. Why is nothing "discovered" until it is seen and documented by a white man?

[ilsadago]

Sorry to say this but Yale is wrong. If there was an agreement - no matter how long ago - and if they don''t honor it, they are morally, and probably legally, wrong. The items are not American and do not belong to Yale. Return them and return honor to America.

[common-cents]

This argument continues regularly and will never end. One hundred years ago Peru was backward and incapable of researching and preserving those artifacts - That is a fact. I''m sorry, I don''t mean to offend Peruvians, but that is or was reality. For 100 years Yale has done research and preserved the artifacts. They%u2019ve also shared this research in the form of papers and books, helping to both preserve and publicize the culture of Peru. Now Peru''s government has grown-up and they want their artifacts back. They want to profit from their history and from Yale%u2019s efforts. Is that fair to Yale? Don''t they deserve some compensation for their work and investment?
Poland has made the same argument to the UK asking for the Copernicus artifacts and Egypt similarly asked for the Egyptian artifacts. Had these items been left to the original countries, they would have been lost - Look at what the legitimate government of the Taliban did to the historical artifacts of Afghanistan %u2013 They destroyed them. Other countries, at times in desperate need of money melted down precious gold objects for cash.
I agree that it is unfair for the US to keep Peru''s historical and cultural artifacts, but it is equally unfair to force Yale, the people who have worked to preserve them, to give them up. A balance must be met: Yale is justified in their assertion that they earned the right to be the care takers. For Yale to return a portion of the artifacts to Peru is an appropriate compromise.

Yale needs to return this stolen property. These artifacts belong to Peru, and they have the right to throw them into a furnace if they want. We don''t own Peru''s past - they do.

[xelaju23]

I know and feel where the Peruan people are coming from. I hope that Peru recovers what is ready there''s. And that Yale understands their position

[cusefanjapan]

The articles belong to Peru. Give them back. You have no formal documents showing they were ceded to you by someone of credible authority. You are essentially a thief.

[joeovercoat]

CBS is not telling the whole story here - Yale is in the wrong, but so is Peru: Peru has every intention of recovering those artifacts and then displaying them in very poor conditions, essentially open to the environment in an unsecured building. When you look further into it, sadly, Peru appears cares not for its own heritage, but only for the tourism of it.

[legacyabq]

Screw Yale, bunch of no-good theives

[cbscrash072]

Seems to me the dispute is over ownership. Who owns items created by a dead civilization? Do they belong to the finders? The possible descendants or to the entire world? Perhaps Yale needs a Peruvian campus. Perhaps the Peruvian government should pay for the care and storage of the priceless articles for the last one hundred years.

Seems to me the dispute is over ownership. Who owns items created by a dead civilization? Do they belong to the finders? The possible descendants or to the entire world? Perhaps Yale needs a Peruvian campus. Perhaps the Peruvian government should pay for the care and storage of the priceless articles for the last one hundred years.


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Posted by cbscrash072 :

The Inca civilization might be extinct, but the people are not. The owners of this property are the people of Peru. Hiram Bingham took them, and Yale has a duty to restore them to the rightful owners. Americans have NO RIGHT to pass judgment on the treatment of any property that is not ours. Peru has asked for the return of these artifacts, and Yale should abide by their request.

Western museums are full of stolen property from thousands of archaeological sites around the world. This smacks of colonialism. We don''t own the world, nor do we own everything in it. It''s time to start restoring this property to the rightful owners.

[rushlimpdrug]

Peru is working on the belief that
Yale will do the proper thing.

Think again.

Peru is just a shell of a country it once was.

[evian_ycnan]

Yale? They should go after Spain for their gold.

[redbds]

Bottom line here is that possession if 90% of the law. Unless Peru can produce a written document showing that a representative of Yale promised to return the items, they do not have a case.

[clathrate]

Bottom line here is that possession if 90% of the law. Unless Peru can produce a written document showing that a representative of Yale promised to return the items, they do not have a case.


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Posted by redbds

You obviously have little understanding of the law.

Spain has sucessfully reclaimed a considerable amount of antiquities discovered by treasure hunters. There need not exist a specific written document; there need only be a provision in the nation''s constitution affirming sovereignty to national treasures.

Peru is the rightful owner here and they need to quit wasting so much time and legal expense fighting this. In the end, they will lose a lot more than just the artifacts in their museum; they are punishing their own scholars with this dispute.

[lady_organs]

I have got the perfect solution. Yale should break the artifacts into itsy bitsy pieces and put them in a large cardboard box and ship it back to them.

[anillafield]

Even in this thread the self-righteous and arrogant mentality that has infected our American minds for centuries is clearly evident. Simply examining the condescending comments made about the people of Peru in here reveal the following:

1) The bigotry. All of the comments about the %u201Cinability%u201D of the Peruvian people to research their own history and culture expose the raw prejudice about them. They are just as offensive as the KKK comments made about the black peoples%u2019 inabilities.

2) The ignorance. Despite the pretense of academic superiority, it%u2019s quite clear that the negative comments made about Peru are not based on any knowledge or analysis. The statements that express what the Peruvian people would do with their own cultural artifacts are presented as if they were facts or common knowledge, but it%u2019s obvious from the depth of intellectual content that the person who%u2019s made the comments know nothing about Peru or Peruvian people.

3) The arrogance. The very idea that the Yale researchers, under the pretentious cover of academic accolades, presume to be in the position to judge, predict and even dictate what the Peruvian people should or would do with their own properties reveals the sheer arrogance that could only come from the centuries of self-righteous ignorance. The American %u201Ccivilization%u201D was built with the slave labor. We are not, and should not pretend to be, in the position to judge the world.

[bread57]

What I don''t understand is why this is suddenly an issue after almost 100 years. If the Peruvians really cared about the antiquities, why did it take until now for them to speak up?

If they really have a legitimate case, let them show some kind of evidence for it. Is there a contract that indicates the possession was temporary? If not, they''re pretty much SOL.

[anillafield]

%u201CWhat I don''''t understand is why this is suddenly an issue after almost 100 years. If the Peruvians really cared about the antiquities, why did it take until now for them to speak up?%u201D

%u201CIf they really have a legitimate case, let them show some kind of evidence for it. Is there a contract that indicates the possession was temporary? If not, they''''re pretty much SOL.%u201D

- Posted by bread57 at 02:13 PM : Nov 24, 2008

See what I mean? More self-righteous comments about the behavior of the Peruvian people made with complete lack of knowledge about them or the issue at hand. The artifacts belong to them; we know that because Yale has the cumulative research material that clearly proves that they are Peruvian.

This attitude is very much like the G.W. Bush%u2019s attitude toward the international diplomacy. With extreme self-righteousness backed by great ignorance, the Bush administration attacked the %u201Cwrong country%u201D with the view to %u201Cspread democracy%u201D as if Americans were in the position to dictate to the world how they should behave. And we now have disastrous wars, destroyed economy and loss of international respect.

[godseyesore-2009]

Is is property of Peru, pure and simple. They have every right for its full return, regardless of ANY political or economic circumstances. Yale is the criminal culprit here (which doesn''t surprise me given they graduated georgie bush).

[imotorist]

According to Yale officials, I can take what I want as long as I don''t plan on giving it back.

[summarex]

That Yale guy didn''t rediscover anything. The local Peruvians always knew about Macchu Picchu and would have documented what they knew eventually.

If they don''t return those artifacts the Peruvians should round up that provost and start cutting off body parts on video until they return the things.

Them archaeological widgets are worth money!

[toolmangler-2009]

I have got the perfect solution. Yale should break the artifacts into itsy bitsy pieces and put them in a large cardboard box and ship it back to them.
Posted by Lady_Organs at 02:01 PM : Nov 24, 2008



A ''real'' Lady would never have such a thought, let alone make such a statement.
So what should we call someone that ''would''??????

[presjfk]

Machu Pichu was discovered by Hiram Bingham in 1911. Bingham was an American academic, explorer and politician.

I think considering this fact andf that the artifacts are probably safer in the USa than in Peru, Yale should keep the artifacts.

[mzwild]

The sheer arrogant assumptions made by Yale sicken me. The artifacts are the proptery of the people of Peru and their historic legacy. And-you cannot tell me that no one in Peru is not qualified to curate that collection. For once do the right thing. I also think that colonized countries like the United States have their own specific organization like NAGPRA, the Native American Graves Repatriation Act. This countrie''s so-called scientists are ghoulish grave-robbers. Hah!

[smurfcrusher]

Yale asserts they should keep the artifacts since they are qualified to preserve them.

Hello??

1. Since when does that dictate ownership
2. I would remind Yale that these items were sitting on a mountaintop for hundreds of years and didn''t require specialized "care".

Yale is grasping at straws for reasons to keep their plunder. SHAME ON YOU!

[evian_ycnan]

An American university laying claim to stolen artifacts?

Whoa. Next thing you know, some jerkwad in the Oval Office might even claim that America has the right to attack some country on the pretense of a preemptive strike.

Well, it could happen.

[anillafield]

%u201CMachu Pichu was discovered by Hiram Bingham in 1911. Bingham was an American academic, explorer and politician.%u201D

%u201CI think considering this fact andf that the artifacts are probably safer in the USa than in Peru, Yale should keep the artifacts.%u201D

- Posted by mzwild at 07:12 PM : Nov 24, 2008

The comments above reveal the basic flaw of the Yale argument. The underlying principle here is exactly the same as the %u201CColumbus discovered America%u201D idea. The %u201Cwhite%u201D people in America and Europe do NOT consider anything to be %u201Cdiscovered%u201D until the %u201Cwhite%u201D people find out about it. Obviously the Peruvian people knew about their own history and culture just as the Native Americans knew about the existence of America, but any knowledge held by the %u201Cnon-white%u201D people is PRESUMED to be irrelevant and incorrect. The sheer magnitude of arrogance and ignorance involved in this bigotry is staggering especially when the bigots presume themselves to know and understand more about the Peruvian history and culture than the Peruvian people. Yet that%u2019s exactly what we have here; a handful of Yale academics are claiming to know more about Peruvian culture and history than the entire population of the Native Peruvians. This is equivalent to some two-bit museum curators claiming ownership to the stolen Van Gogh paintings because they consider themselves to know more about Van Gogh than Van Gogh himself.

What I don''''t understand is why this is suddenly an issue after almost 100 years. If the Peruvians really cared about the antiquities, why did it take until now for them to speak up?

If they really have a legitimate case, let them show some kind of evidence for it. Is there a contract that indicates the possession was temporary? If not, they''''re pretty much SOL.


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Posted by bread57: Wrong. Let''s see the letter from Peru authorizing Yale to remove thousands of priceless artifacts from a Peruvian archaeological site.

Machu Pichu was discovered by Hiram Bingham in 1911. Bingham was an American academic, explorer and politician.

I think considering this fact andf that the artifacts are probably safer in the USa than in Peru, Yale should keep the artifacts.


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Posted by presjfk: Machu Picchu was built by the Peruvians long before America existed. Hiram Bingham no more "discovered" it than the Beatles discovered the US on their first visit. The artifacts belong to Peru. Yale stole them. Being an American institution doesn''t give them special privileges.

[anillafield]

My apologies to mzwild. I''ve incorrectly attached your posting identification to the comments by presjfk.

In my previous posting the quoted comments were made by:

- Posted by presjfk at 05:35 PM : Nov 24, 2008

[galloglaigh]

Machu Pichu was discovered by Hiram Bingham in 1911. Bingham was an American academic, explorer and politician.
I think considering this fact andf that the artifacts are probably safer in the USa than in Peru, Yale should keep the artifacts.
Posted by presjfk at 05:35 PM : Nov 24, 2008
- - - - - - - - - -

Wrong on both counts!!

Most of the locals living in the area knew about Machu Picchu and it was one of those locals who led Bingham to the ancient city ruins. In addition, two local missionaries had already climbed to the ruins in 1906, five years before Bingham arrived in the area.

The only credit Bingham (and Yale) should be given is for bringing world attention to Machu Picchu, and the National Geographic Society should be given most of that credit.

Who says the artifacts are safer in the U.S. than in Peru? The ONLY way valuables can be kept safe in this country is to LOCK them up. When is the last time Yale offered these artifacts for public viewing?

In September 2007, Yale agreed to give the artifacts back.

So, why doesn''t Yale live up to their agreement and give them back?

[frankfurt200]

Posted by galloglaigh at 11:01 PM

The Smithsonian continues to keep the heads of four Modoc Indian leaders whose bodies are remain buried in Oregon. The Tribe has requested they be returned several times, and Smithsonian continues to hold them. After these leaders were executed, circuses took their heads and paraded them around the country for the public''s amusement.