Baptism Of Holocaust Victims Sparks Anger

Holocaust Survivors Demand Mormons Stop Baptizing Jews Murdered By Nazis

(AP)  Holocaust survivors are trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database to make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."

"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

"We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion," Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. "We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."

Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, are over. He said his group will not sue, and that "the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion."

In 1995, the church agreed not to perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon.

Church spokesman Mike Otterson said Michel's decision to publicly denounce the church seems like a unilateral termination of the discussion.

"Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate and belie the long and valued mutual respect that we have had in past years," Otterson said in an e-mail.

Posthumous baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Otterson said the church has kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 200,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database.

She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.

"I've seen a steady procession of Jewish Holocaust names, especially names with camps linked to them, going to the International Genealogical Index," said Radkey, who acknowledges that she has limited access to the records. "There's no possible way of knowing exactly how many names, but it's substantial."

Church officials say a new version of the database - called New Family Search - will fix the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation - not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

[mytoosense]

Wow, the Mormans have been busy;
Pisssing off California Gayys, Getting busted for peligomy marriage with pubescent girls and now, assult with holy water.

If they are''nt careful, their reputation may sink as low as the Evangelicals.

[nikosk11]

Religion is the universal, obsessional neurosis of the human race. Sigmund F.

[nikosk11]

LDS is a CULT.

[ioweign]

Is there a reason Mormons do not babtize the unborn?

Increasingly Religion is more about those that haven''t been born yet or those that have already died.

Posted by caldwellptr at 03:25 PM : Nov 11, 2008

Who else will listen to them??

[fush2]

random_radar

yea and it has the name jesus christ on it..whats your point??? look at their practice..is it something that jesus would do or teached? they have their own religion thing going on...

[fush2]

no jews arent hateful people....and the mormon religion is ridiculously weird..they baptize the dead? who wants to be a mormon anywayz they sleep with kids

[cyberdjs4]

These Morons...er Mormons can''t keep their ******* out of the blender can they?

Funding against same *** marriage in another state, desecrating the Jewish faith?
What''s next, a raid on a Mormon cult compound resulting in the seizure of 400 children?

Wait...never mind.

[moralityguy]

Oh, buttonjocky, you don''t know anything about Mormonism do you? I run a genealogy library for the Mormon church. NO one is listed as "Mormom" after having these ordinances performed. That is not only false, but it is against the doctrines of the church. The doctrine is simple. People receiving temple ordinances are given and "offer." That''s it. We don''t baptize the dead. Period. We make offers to the dead. Our goal is to perform all ordinances (not just baptisms--but marriages, sealings, gift of the Holy Ghost, and others) for every human being that has ever lived on the planet. Does this make them Mormon in our eyes as Mormons? NOT AT ALL. Never. It does no more in our eyes than Jesus did in offering the atonement. It is an offer and that is it. It is not disrespectful to offer something we deem beautiful to others. If they, or you, deem it not beautiful, not true, or simply not for you, then reject the offer. Don''t worry, the rejection doesn''t send you to hell either. We don''t believe in that kind of dogma either. Relax.

[buttonjockey]

phillna, a Mormon, said:

: "When baptisms or other ordinances are performed by proxy for
: deceased persons, they do NOT force the deceased to change
: religions against their will. The ordinances are in effect being
: offered up as a GIFT to the deceased, which they may accept and
: claim in the spirit world if they so choose. It is rather like
: a person being offered a copy of a Book of Mormon. He is not
: being forced to take the book, and he does not automatically
: become LDS if he does accept the gift. But he can choose to
: accept it and read it and live by it if he so chooses."

Nice try. Now explain why the Mormons perform these baptisms by proxy and then label the victim as Mormon in geneology records? That is unethical. Only I get to speak for myself!

I have relatives that are Mormon and they are especially talented at aggrandizing their religion and justifying their immoral and unethical practices.

[phillna]

Look at all the hate and anger in this supposed discussion about religion, or how people choose to worship God. "Jews are hateful people." "bloody thumbprints on other people''s souls." The list in this comment string alone could go on and on.

LDS proxy ordinances for the dead have absolutely nothing to do with "rewriting history." Instead, they are a gift lovingly offered to our ancestors. One of my best friends in the church is a man who is Jewish by birth but decided after much heartfelt prayer and study to become a Latter-day Saint. Now if this Jewish-born man can make that decision, why is it unthinkable that the spirits of deceased Jews, even Holocaust victims, could not come to the same decision in the spirit world? Who are we, the living, to make a decision that denies them that opportunity, if they learn new spiritual truths after they leave this world and wish to act upon them? Do you believe a person loses his or her free will at death, that they are forever frozen in the state in which they died? Or do you believe that a person''s spirit dies when their body does? In which case, what does it MATTER whether proxy baptisms are performed??

One commenter here asks why we don''t baptize the unborn. I''m sure he/she was being facetious, but it''s not a bad question. First, because we don''t know who they are or when they will begin or end their mortal lives. But second, because they may have the opportunity to choose baptism for themselves when they are of age.

[caldwellptr]

Is there a reason Mormons do not babtize the unborn?

Increasingly Religion is more about those that haven''t been born yet or those that have already died.

[rushlimpdrug]

Now are these jews orthodox?

[oldpoet-2009]

Posted by jcr103:
Wow! You people aren''''t just stupid, you''''re crazy!

Mormons don''''t just baptize Jews and victims of the Holocaust but everyone else whom they can gather information upon and have not previously been baptized in the Mormon church. They do this because they believe they alone have the authority to do this.

Most of the people posting here have no idea what they are talking about. Feel free to get a clue. Maybe pull your head out once in a while, huh?
--------------

Thank you jcr103.
At least someone here understands what''s actually going on with the Mormon practice.

[oldpoet-2009]

Posted by nolle61:
It''''s like the Catholics giving "last rights" to a person of their faith. It''''s simply not how it works. You can not "will" another human being into heaven. It''''s entirely up to the individual.
--------
It''s NOTHING like the "Anointing of the Sick".

I just love people who THINK they know or understand the religious beliefs of others (even though they are completely clueless).

The Catholic sacrament of "Anointing of the Sick", formerly known as Last Rites or Extreme Unction, is a ritual of healing of physical, mental and spiritual sickness.

The priest anoints the recipient on the forehead and prays "Through this holy anointing may the Lord help you with the grace of the Holy Spirit." Then he anoints the person%u2019s hands and prays, "May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up."


As one can see, there is NOT a belief that the anointing is any sort of automatic ticket into heaven.

It is, instead, a REQUEST (prayer) to God that He help the person see the Grace of the Holy Spirit in their life and a second REQUEST (prayer) that God (who CAN forgive ALL sin) forgive THEIR sins and raise them up to heaven.

[rushlimpdrug]

"Now remember son, you are a jew
so you are better than those weird
catholics or mormons, and baptist,
but espcially the irish"

[jcr103]

Wow! You people aren''t just stupid, you''re crazy!

Mormons don''t just baptize Jews and victims of the Holocaust but everyone else whom they can gather information upon and have not previously been baptized in the Mormon church. They do this because they believe they alone have the authority to do this.

Most of the people posting here have no idea what they are talking about. Feel free to get a clue. Maybe pull your head out once in a while, huh?

[rushlimpdrug]

I now baptise all you posting freaks into
the limpdrug church.

Congrats!

Now go forth and reproduce like crazy!

thank you.

[walt1944-2009]

The Mormon church has gotten it into it''s head that all Jews who were victims of the Nazi Holocaust should be Mormons and has begun "post-baptizing" them into the Mormon religion!!!!!

It is assumed that not only Jews, but gypsies, Catholics, and athiests who were also victims of the holocaust are suffering the same fate!

And since the victims are not able to speak up for themselves, the Mormons appear to feel they can do whatever they want, having the same mind-set like most neocon Fascist Nazi Republicans do!

It is a mystery as to why the Mormons want to do this, although it is thought the Mormons want to re-write history by baptizing all victims of the Holocaust as Mormons, then arguing that the Nazis didn''t really exterminate any Jews, but Mormons instead!!!! This revelation would drive Adolph Hitler mad if he were alive today!!!

The moral of this crazy story is that even after you are dead and buried, you don''t get any respect!!!!!!!

Rodney Dangerfield was right after all!!!

SIG HEIL, AT LEAST THE MORMONS WILL WANT ME!!!, BUSH!!!

[rushlimpdrug]

The jew Jesus started a cult among jews.

Jews hated him so much for it they murdered him.

It is in the Bible.

jews are hateful people.

[jcr103]

If you don''t believe that Mormonism has any spiritual authority...why in the world would their baptism by proxy of Jews worry you? Maybe you are just getting your panties in a wad over something you should not be concerned about in the first place.