Baptism Of Holocaust Victims Sparks Anger

Holocaust Survivors Demand Mormons Stop Baptizing Jews Murdered By Nazis

(AP)  Holocaust survivors are trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database to make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."

"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

"We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion," Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. "We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."

Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, are over. He said his group will not sue, and that "the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion."

In 1995, the church agreed not to perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon.

Church spokesman Mike Otterson said Michel's decision to publicly denounce the church seems like a unilateral termination of the discussion.

"Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate and belie the long and valued mutual respect that we have had in past years," Otterson said in an e-mail.

Posthumous baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Otterson said the church has kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 200,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database.

She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.

"I've seen a steady procession of Jewish Holocaust names, especially names with camps linked to them, going to the International Genealogical Index," said Radkey, who acknowledges that she has limited access to the records. "There's no possible way of knowing exactly how many names, but it's substantial."

Church officials say a new version of the database - called New Family Search - will fix the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation - not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

[ardiva1]

I don''t understand if the Jewish people do not believe as LDS people do, then why would this bother them?

[karlo59]

Why is religion and greed ALWAYS at the root of ALL conflicts and wars? Man is pathetic and very ignorant.

[walkshe]

I have grown up (and still live) in a small Mormon community. One of 6 children, and the only one NOT baptised into the Mormon church. Anyone in the community was teased, chastised, even ostracized for not being a Mormon. They have a "holier-than-thou" attitude. Baptising the dead is a common practice and it''s not only the Jewish community that objects to it, but....the Mormon''s do as they please.

[sandy19731]

I don''''t understand if the Jewish people do not believe as LDS people do, then why would this bother them?
Posted by Ardiva1 at 09:33 AM : Nov 11, 2008

You have a point, however they AGREED not to do this and they should honor that promise.

I would guess that it doesn''t bother all Jewish people but it does bother some Jewish people a great deal. My parents would be very upset if someone who believed differently than they do would baptize their ancestors. Frankly, it wouldn''t bother me.

[evian_ycnan]

I protect my right to be a Catholic by preserving your right to believe as a Jew, a Protestant, or non-believer, or as anything else you choose. We know that the price of seeking to force our beliefs on others is that they might some day force theirs on us. --Mario Cuomo, 52nd Governor of New York (b. 1932)

Some people just cannot grasp even the simplest of abstract concepts.

Baptizing the dead is a harmless practice; after all, the dead know for sure, eh?

[hawksprings]

Somebody dunking themselves in water does nothing for a dead person.
What Mormons need to do is taze themselves for the dead.

[buttonjockey]

Posthumous baptism is a ridiculous concept! By that thinking, any old religion from now until eternity could chant over my remains and change my religious affiliation. If I didn''t believe in the separation of church and state, I''d want a law against it.

Baptism itself has problems. The very basis of religion is belief. That is the only tie that one truly has to a religion. If you don''t believe the tenets of a religion, you don''t belong to that religion (even if you claim to). So if a person has beliefs that fit, I can see baptising them, but if they don''t have these beliefs (too young or not in agreement) it makes no sense. Only I determine what I am.

I strongly disagree with the Mormon practice of baptising those who cannot speak for themselves. And then they have the audacity to record it in geneological records! Why don''t they just pass a proclamation stating that all people throughout history were really Mormons? It''ll backfire though. Historians will realize that this posthumous baptism practice is a sham and not an accurate reflection of the true number of Mormons who lived and died. The Mormon geneology records, while very extensive, will always be suspect in the category of religion.

[evian_ycnan]

I strongly disagree with the Mormon practice of baptising those who cannot speak for themselves.

Posted by buttonjockey at 10:10 AM : Nov 11, 2008

What then of the baptism of infants, children, the mental incompetent and the giving of Last Rites to the unconscious or comatose dying?

All religion is a sham.

[mswolfestock]

Hey y''all -

I lived in Utah for three years, where the Mormons run the state like a theocracy. The problem is, Mormonism is not so much a religion as it is a cult. Everything they do offends most other reasonable people whether they practice a different religion or not.

They need to mind their own business but I don''t see that happening any time soon.

To all of the Holocaust survivors and other Jewish folks - I''m just as ashamed of the Mormons as you are, and I''m terribly sorry that the Mormons have chosen to offend you for no good reason whatsoever. Go in Peace and God Bless Us Everyone (except for those cult fanatics in Utah).

[greengrasgal]

Out of respect for the families, the Mormons should not presume to change a deceased individual''s religious affiliation without the express authorization of the descendants. However, the choices and voluntary affiliations they made while alive will follow them (and us) into eternity. The Bible does not make any allowance for a second chance after death. Whether it''s offering prayers for the dead, or performing proxy baptisms, or anything else religious groups use for financial gain or spiritual control, these practices are worthless as far as the deceased is concerned. "Now is the day of salvation," not later.

[daniel1004]

The problem is the Mormons keep saying they''re going to stop and then they don''t. A church out of control, to say the very least.

[tnz650-2009]

This kind of thing makes my head spin. Mormonism is one of the craziest, most perverted of the Bible religions. There''s never been a larger, more organized collection of freaks in man''s entire history. Their whole history is just a freak show. Why would Jews (or anyone) care about their freaky baptism rituals?

[daniel1004]

Whether people know it or not, the Mormons in Germany during the Holocaust were quite supportive of Hitler. One Mormon individual who protested Hitler was excommunicated and then executed. Only until after the Holocaust did the church try and correct this. Since the church didn''t know enough to say no to Hitler, then they should be the last ones trying to save Jewish souls from beyond the grave.

[rags6243]

Should one be surprised by the arrogance of the Mormons? I think not. When one BELIEVES one has the WHOLE truth, the ONE truth, the ONLY truth then nothing will stand in the way of forcing that truth on others...even dead Jews that died as a result of the false beliefs of the Nazis who believed they had the WHOLE, SINGLE and ONLY truth as well. Such extreme behavior has no place in any society. Shame on the Mormons and their warped views of right and wrong.

[rushlimpdrug]

jews and mormons.

They should go to war.

That would make for a cool war.

it could be the mor-jew war.

[clovernyc]

Why do the Jewish people who have centuries of rich history and religious significance in the world even CARE what the Mormons do?

Think ''hideous pastel prairie dresses'' and ''child brides''

[rich_price]

It is true that the new family search being rolled out prevents members from submitting names of unrelated persons. Under the old system any names could be submitted.

The teaching of redeeming the dead is one of the reasons that I am a member of the Church. Many of the critics of this practice are fundamental Christians who do not even believe that Jews can be saved, and yet they fault us for believing in this principle.

[barcar55]

What then of the baptism of infants, children, the mental incompetent and the giving of Last Rites to the unconscious or comatose dying?
All religion is a sham.

Posted by Evian_Ycnan at 10:14 AM : Nov 11

This is against Biblical principals (infant baptism, etc). Catholics baptize babies but such practice is found no where in the word of God. You must be able to acknowledge you are a sinner, ask forgiveness for your sin, and then be baptized. Read the book of the Acts of the Apostles if you have any questions.

[msimamaji]

I am not surprised. As previous bloggers stated, this practice simply reflects the arrogance of the Mormon Church. Last month, they spent millions of dollars - money that should have been spent helping the poor - to ban "gay marriage" in California. Actually gay marriages have been sanctified by all churches including the LSD for ages. Consider the "gay marriages" of Larry Craig and Ted Haggard as two examples. The only difference is that now *** want to marry each other rather than heterosexuals.
Is there anything wrong with that?

The proxy baptisms are just another example of the dogmatic stupidity of the Mormon Church which incidentally has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.

[barcar55]

The teaching of redeeming the dead is one of the reasons that I am a member of the Church

Redeeming the dead? That is only found in the Mormon book--not the Holy Bible. Did you not read that who ever adds to or takes away from God''s Word shall have his part taken away? See Reveation 22:19. Also see Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[earache4]

God:

"ROFLMAO!!!"

[ioweign]

This illustrates, yet again, the fractious nature of religion. Religion is divisive, intolerant, arrogant and toxic.

RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING.

Posted by jmcgilvray at 11:24 AM : Nov 11, 2008


It should be taxed like any other "BUSINESS"...

[evian_ycnan]

if the body is merely a vessel for the soul which a god placed there, what`s the difference what anybody does over or with a dead body so long as they aren`t having *** with it?

Posted by ccfsdca at 10:29 AM : Nov 11, 2008

Some like `em hot,
Some like `em cold,
Some like `em in the ground,
Nine days old...

This is just the Mormons making damned sure Mitt Romney hasn`t a flicker of a chance in 2012.

[rich_price]

It is true that the new family search being rolled out prevents members from submitting names of unrelated persons. Under the old system any names could be submitted.

The teaching of redeeming the dead is one of the reasons that I am a member of the Church. Many of the critics of this practice are fundamental Christians who do not even believe that Jews can be saved, and yet they fault us for believing in this principle.

[yongamerica]

Why would one care about this? This is such nonsense from both parties.

[yongamerica]

All Churches should be taxed the same as other businesses. Why were they exempt in the first place?

[centerfall93]

Show a little respect. The victims of the Holocaust do not deserve to be used as political and religious tools.

Religion poisons everything.

[rich_price]

It is true that the new family search being rolled out prevents members from submitting names of unrelated persons. Under the old system any names could be submitted.

The teaching of redeeming the dead is one of the reasons that I am a member of the Church. Many of the critics of this practice are fundamental Christians who do not even believe that Jews can be saved, and yet they fault us for believing in this principle.

[andrew_693]

maybe the jews should ban any mormons from stepping into israel, particularly the ones that have those names. They should expel the entire mormon religion from israel.

[earache4]

Well, that''s one way to boost the numbers of the mormon church.....now pass the plate....

[germanmom]

daniel1004: Don''t you think you should cite your source? You wouldn''t want us to think you are fabricating this, do you?

[germanmom]

msimamaji has broken the rules of engagement.

[yourpointis]

This is just wrong.

[kirstinharr]

This is one of the many things about Mormonism that is suspect. They refer to non Mormons as Gentiles--as if they are Jewish. There are so many little things about this religion that are frightening. I am a firm believer in freedom of religion. There are only two faiths that I am uncomfortable with--Islam and Mormonism. Probably because women are not at all equal...this practice should stop. The nerve to say that a Jew who gave his or her life during the Holocaust is not worthy of Heaven is just amazing.

[clovernyc]

Mormons are NOT Christians. Do not get it twisted.

[clovernyc]

And the Jewish people should care about some ninnies baptizing the dead because.... ?

[earache4]

Just something else I%u2019ll have to add to my epitaph:
Here lies earache4
%u201CI told you I was sick%u201D
No solicitors
Post no bills
No vendors
No Mormon baptisms

[mediabrat60]

It''s just another form of arrogance of the LDS church.
They believe they are THE true religion and do whatever they want.
They have no right but they have no tact either!

[evian_ycnan]

Show a little respect. The victims of the Holocaust do not deserve to be used as political and religious tools.

Religion poisons everything.

Posted by Centerfall93 at 11:50 AM : Nov 11, 2008

And it uses Zyclon-B to do it.

[antoniof123]

Has anyone thought about the fact that these people are dead and don''t really care.

But hey I guess some nut cases want to fight about anything.

[excoachken]

I never knew that the Mormons were such a hate-filled group. Between this and spending tons of $$$ just to keep same *** couples from enjoying what most of us married heterosexuals find to be a wonderful part of our lives (marriage), they must have a lot of free time to think of ways to "impose" their narrow minds upon others. Here''s my warning: Stay away from my doorstep!!!!

[luvcomments]

lastdance126

I have a news flash for you. They ARE doing it to all of our dead, not just the Jews. Have been doing it forever, getting the names from records and gravestones. It''s an obscenity. Just who do they thin they are? I contacted the Mormons asking how I could make sure I wasn''t rebaptized by them after I died and they would not respond. We need laws against that self-righteous disregard for other people''s beliefs. Are you aware they believe they are the only ones permitted by God to baptize? Their stance is that priests and ministers do not have the authority. They deny a whole lot of things about their "religion" but it needs to be thoroughly investigated when it comes to their interfering with normal Christian and other beliefs.

[davidhinkson]

The mormons aren''t baptizing to make jews mormons, they believe that everyone who lives on the earth must be baptized and that baptism for the dead is a biblical practice as taught in 1 Corinthians 15:29. if they want to do someone the favor of making sure that they are baptized that is fine. It certainly isn''t hurting anyone who is dead and I believe Mormons are good people who do a lot of good in this world.

[davidhinkson]

The Mormons do a lot of good in this world and baptism for the dead which is actually taught in the bible in 1 Corinthians 15:29 is harmless. I am certain that Jews will go down in history as jews whether or not their names are used by Mormons in a harmless baptism practice.

[davidhinkson]

The Mormons are not jew haters or Homosexual haters. They are the most loving group of people I have ever found. I hear many other religions and athiests dissing the Mormons but I have attended years of Mormon meetings and have NEVER heard one word of hatred or even a negative reference about any other group of people. Many of these anti mormon comments are completely false.

[rushlimpdrug]

Was it because of jews that there was a holocaust?

[excoachken]

To davidhinkson: Why can''t they respect people who have a different belief system? Why do they pick these fights, instead of just living a decent life and, in that way, selling their "belief product" through example, instead of in-your-face bullying?

[luvcomments]

lastdance126
I have researched a ton on the web about mormons. Better yet, I have a lot of mormon friends, many of whom have left that group in utter disgust and told me what really goes on, not what they want you to think they are about. The most dangerous people on earth are the ones who truly believe they know what is best for everybody else.

[element51]

I was raised in the Church. At the age of 11 I was molested by a priest and that set me on a course that changed my life. For several years after this happened I thought it was my fault and I grew to hate myself. I felt guilty and dirty. I had no one to confide in and kept this terrible secret locked inside. When I reached my late teens I started to wonder about religion and the existance of a God. So I started to read about all religion. The more research I did, the more I became convinced that it was all just a con game to manipulate the masses. When I got to the Book Of Mormon I was amazed to find that it read like a science fiction novel. It was a collection of some of the most rildicilous stories I had ever seen. After spending much time looking at the concept of religion I bacame an atheist and have lived happily ever after. I do not put the religion of others down nor do I attempt to "convert" others to my ideas. But what I see is groups of people at each others throats over a collection of fairy tales. I have learned to keep my beliefs to myself since there are so many out there who actually think I am in league with the devil. It is my responsibility to live a good and decent life which I try to do. I believe that we all know right from wrong and how silly to believe that you can do wrong, get forgiven, and do more wrong. Learn from your mistakes and resolve not to repeat them.

[caldwellptr]

Perhaps the Prop 8 amendment in California should have said that Marriage is between one living man and one living woman ....