8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father

Police Investigating Possible Abuse As Motive In Double-Murder; Father's Friend Also Killed

(AP)  Police in this small eastern Arizona community are looking into the possibility that an 8-year-old boy who is charged with killing his father and another man with a rifle had been abused, the police chief said Saturday.

The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, Police Chief Roy Melnick said.

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

A judge determined Friday that there was probable cause to show the boy fatally shot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos, with a .22-caliber rifle.

Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older. The judge ordered a psychological evaluation.

The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.

Police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but authorities were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed, Melnick said.

"We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side," he said.

Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 170 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St. Johns.

The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said.

Melnick said police got a confession, but the boy's attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.

"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."

FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.

Earlier this year in Arizona, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.

Defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the latest case, said that each case has to be considered on its own merits, but that it would be hard for him to comprehend that an 8-year-old has the mental capacity to understand the act of murder and its implications.

"If they actually prosecute the guy, it's a legal minefield," he said. "And, two, society has to make a decision as to whether they want to start using the criminal justice system to deal with 8-year-olds. That doesn't mean you don't have a troubled kid."

Wednesday's homicides were the first in at least four years in the community, where most people know one another, Melnick said.

Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother visited St. Johns during the weekend from Mississippi and returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.

Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits.

"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."

[toolmangler-2009]

Abuse begets retribution.

At the age of eight I was skilled with a rifle as were most boys my age,

[phoenixandy]

Sounds like the father was just like most gunowners, very irresponsible. Only idiots give a gun to an 8-year-old boy. As a gunowner, this is what you deserve when your child has easy access to your gun.

[roseglow3]

sounds like this boy may have been aused if multiple domestic violence calls were made to the address. This biy was unfortuante in his luck if that is the case, in his draw of a father.

His WORSE luck is living in the state of Arizona. Child welfare is near the bottom of the list in Arizona (ranks 46th I think). Governor Napolitano ran on CPS reform then dropped it like a hot potato. In my 15 years ofdealing with Arizona CPS/DES, it has become increasingly broken as a system with callous regard for the children in the state.

It is very telling that an 8 year old would even be consisdered to be tried as an adult (!) but the great state of Arizona is still in the 1880''s and ready to lynch anyone...even abused children. My prayers to this child.

[atlanta1962]

to bad that state worried about gay marriage and trying to get mccain in the white house yes that child was out the womb, he was on his own

[caliengineer]

Gun ownership is necessary to protect the citizens of ANY nation from the menace of un-checked government. Anyone who pretends to themselves that guns are for "home defense" against burglars, or for shooting groundhogs, has become nothing more than a talking box for government propaganda.

Feeling wise and superior in their position, they show themselves fools to those who really understand.

Lenin took away guns. Hitler took away guns. Tens of millions of people died. Compare that to the small number of tragedies.

[loppyloo]

I just can''t believe that it is legal to try an 8 year old as an adult! There is NOTHING adult about an 8 year old and in this case where there is no previous indication of sociopathy/antisocial behavior or other disorder that would lead someone to believe that there is something inherently wrong and un-fixable about this boy. An 8 y.o. who does something like this either has a reason or does not understand his actions, and possibly both. To try this kid for pre-meditated murder would be a crime.

[toolmangler-2009]

Any person that is more afraid of a thing (guns) than another person is a fool that deserves no freedom. People are the only fearsome things in the world.

[toolmangler-2009]

this is what you deserve when your child has easy access to your gun.
Posted by phoenixandy at 08:34 PM : Nov 08, 2008


Especially if you cause them to hate instead of respect you.......

[toobigtofail]

we dont yet know the facts. the 8 year old may have been acting in self defense. and even if his self defensive behavior might not be justfieable for an adult or a teenager, it may well be "reasonable'' from the perspective of an 8 year old. or possibly this incident has nothing to do with abuse or self defense, we just dont know.

so you all, on the right and on the left, just hold your fire!

btw, im a lib dem who supports the 2nd amendment!

[forever1973]

Guns don''t kill people.

People with guns kill people.

[rsmik]

According to news reports, the father bought his son a rifle and taught him to shoot prairie dogs. So maybe the kid just wanted bigger prey.

[W.W. Terry]

The boy didn''t shoot his father and his father''s friend because he felt loved. Who knows the full story. Maybe time will tell. This reminds me of a boy about his age some 26 years ago just north of Fresno, Cal. His mother and her boyfriend were trash. The boy had no friends and I didn''t befriend him. One evening the boy ran out into traffic and was killed. He had committed suicide. I feel sorrow for that kid and wish I had reached out to him. Caio! wwterry

[gatofeo]

The problem isn''t guns. I shot my first .22 rifle when I was 6, and my father taught me gun safety from the beginning.
I''ll tell you what the problem is: American culture has changed dramatically going back 40 years but even more so in the last 15.
Video games celebrate crime and violence upon others. Kids think being a pimp, drug dealer or assailant are cool. There is no personal responsibility.
There was a time when adults -- parents, teachers, relatives and even neighbors -- could immediately stop bad behavior with a slap on the hand or spanking.
Not anymore!
How much you want to bet that 8-year-old had violent video games and watched VH1 or MTV.
I can hear the arguments against this already, so I have a little project to prove you wrong.
If kids aren''t swayed and behaviorally modified by what''s on TV, video games and movies, then let''s start pumping out a message of, "Throw a brick through your neighbor''s window!"
After tens of thousands of windows are replaced, I think you''ll believe differently.

[tmittelstaed]

"...I''ll tell you what the problem is: American culture has changed dramatically going back 40 years but even more so in the last 15. Video games celebrate crime..."

Rot and rubbish. American culture is not responsible for an 8 year old''s view of the world. That boy''s view of the world is a result of his PARENTS.

Where is the mother? Why did the father have full custody? I''ll bet the reality is that mother is a white trash druggie tramp that the divorce court couldn''t even find enough redeeming value in to even give her partial custody, and the father had major anger control issues and solved every argument by slapping the kid around, or shooting up stuff.

[bobgee_1999]

Oh for Christ''s sake, this isn''t a 2nd Amendment story, you imbeciles. Knock it off. And just for the record, Hitler did NOT take away anyone''s guns; lies invalidate any argument. Private gun ownership was abolished by the previous Weimar Republic in 1933. For that matter, the "right to bear arms" was never a widespread liberty to begin with, elsewhere in the world. I''m a gun owner, and there are quite a number of things I think are vastly more important.

The fact that these dopes always pop up with their ill-informed opinions (religious nuts always comment on science stories, gun freaks always comment on stuff like this) demonstrates poor reading comprhension & critical thinking skills.

No 8-year old should be in any way exposed to dangerous weapons. Children are not simply short adults; they are mentally, emotionally and judgementally undeveloped. That''s why they require parenting, and why parenting is a 24/7 occupation that very very few are qualified for or interested in.

[caitlinndad]

I am sure an 8 year-old killing people is ok with the gun huggers. Because without a gun, how else could he kill them?
sounds right to me .

[ffoulkes-2009]

Guns don''''t kill people.

People with guns kill people.

Posted by forever1973 at 11:08 PM : Nov 08, 2008
____________________________________________________________
.........and people with knives kill people
.........and people with baseball bats kill people
.........and people with pipes kill people
.........and people with sticks, rocks, cars, tall places, ropes, belts, bikini tops, wires, etc.......
We can''t totally disarm the nation...Everything can be used as a weapon. We need to teach people to use firearms responsibly, to teach the kids to use them properly and when to use them (apparently this lesson was not tought well enough)...not take them all away.

[flolake]

buckfush500:

I like yer screen name!(;

[cbs_bull]

This tragedy is more an irresponsible parent issue than a gun issue. Please don''t use it to push your political agenda. (Don''t know why. The ABC News doesn''t allow me to post this on their site.)

[shameonbush]

There is no way that child should be tried as an adult. Hello, he''s eight.

[ffoulkes-2009]

That is just about the STU.PID.EST thing I have ever heard! How are your little rods going to save you from the government? Sure, if a cop or two comes by and threatens you, you can shoot them. But then MORE will come until you are eventually dead. Or, if the citizens get too *** uppity with their guns, the government can just bomb you out of existence. How are your stupid little pea shooters going to protect you from that? Are you going to get your OWN nukes? Do you have your OWN satelite and communications systems? Do you have YOUR OWN air force, army, navy, marines, etc? NO!

You are living in a sick, violent and self-defeating fantasy world! It''''s time to GROW UP!

Posted by IDNNSG at 07:20 AM : Nov 09, 2008
______________________________________________________
I agree...we shouldn''t be limited to just rifles, pistols and shotguns...fully automatic machineguns, tanks, aircraft, anti aircraft and missiles should be available too, right?

[jennmarie620]

I have an eight year old daughter, and I cannot even begin to understand how ANYONE can think an eight year old is qualified to be charged as an adult in ANY crime.

Yes, it''s a horrible tragedy and almost incomprehensible to think that an eight year old picked up a shotgun and killed two people with it - almost TOO incomprehensible.

My first thought was, can an eight year old REALLY hold a shotgun steady - let alone pull the trigger and withstand the recoil? I''m a 26 year old adult and can barely stand the recoil on a shotgun.

And for police to question an eight year old child without representation is a completely misuse of power on their part.

I am ashamed of what is happening to this country, its justice system, and life in general. To live in a country where an eight year old child will be charged in a crime whose punishment will be life in prison ...

... I believe that''s what some would call overkill ... and the psychological community would call insane.

[slim1h2o]

Posted by jennmarie620 at 07:40 AM : Nov 09, 2008

Sorry, according to the article, the kid used a .22, which has less recoil, than a shotgun. And also, is much lighter than a shotgun as well.

So, an average sized 8 year old can hold up a .22 rifle.

Which by the way, is what I learned on when I was 8.

[leftonred-2009]

another indicator that material wealth- money, and what it bnys, has become more important than raising kids in our country....more and more parents do not truelly bond with their own children less and less...this is just another extreme case....

[leftonred-2009]

excuse the poor english but you know what i mean...

[kurlikew]

First of all, why was there a loaded gun in a house where a small child lives, and why did he have access to it?

Secondly, can anyone be surprised when kids resort to violence? Look at the garbage they watch on television, and at the non-stop violence of the video games they vegetate with all the time. If this kid was being abused - and if there are previous domestic abuse calls on record he was - that''s all the more reason why he''s learned to respond to violence with violence.

I agree with the comment below - you can''t possibly try an eight year old as an adult. That''s just ridiculous. And I seriously doubt that juvenile hall has turned out many productive, law-abiding citizens, so that''s very likely not a good option. Neither is pumping the kid up with psychiatric drugs, which they''ll no doubt try to do.

Where is this boy''s mother, anyway? The article doesn''t say.

[usmc1968]

This is a child, 8 years old and anyone suggesting he be tried as a adult is a idiot, do not know why this happened, even if he did it, since a 8 year old is very impressionable, easily presuaded to say or do anything by a adult {mother}, whom visited just prior to this incident, maybe she was back in Mississippi when all this happened, maybe not, one can bet if she has any culpability in this matter its being looked into, a very similiar case occured sometime ago, a young boy allegedly shot his father, mother lured him to the house, a bitter custody dispute was on going, child confessed, prosecutors believed either the mother did it, or presuaded the child to do it, and convinced him to take the blame in either event, he got convicted as a juvenile, sent away till he turns 21, mom is still under suspicion, murder before or after the fact has no statute of limitations, I find it unbelievable this child all on his own came up with this idea, act, I am suspicious by nature!

[usmc1968]

And as to the second amendment, as a ex-marine vietnam era, find anyone trying to use this case as a gun rights issue is like beating a dead horse, kids are killed every day by guns left in the home, loaded, unsecured, one cannot blame a child with no adult supervision for a accident, this was no accident, I leave my judgment on who did this when all the investigation is done and said, but as a gun issue for pro or anti its stupid to use this case as a rally point for either case!

[messiahx4eve]

IF this child is tried and convicted as an adult, what about the adult that claims an 8 year old seduced him or her sexually? IF an 8 year old can be tried as an adult, you are opening up a whole new realm of confusion. We, as a society, "create" the environment these children live in, and we, as a society, should be held accountable as well. This child learned to kill, be it video games, television, or self expression through parenting, but he still learned, if only this child would have learned the difference between right and wrong first, perhaps this would not have happened. We have a very diversed neighborhood here and we all have heard children as young as 8 brag about everything from fighting to not being a virgin & proud of it. This is how it is becoming nationwide, not just in small communities any longer. Take a moment to inventory just what your child 5 and up really is knowledgable of or aware of these days.

[slim1h2o]

ms1-1-1 at 10:40 AM : Nov 09, 2008

Where does it say that he was molested?

Getting a little racist ain''t ya?

[usmc1968]

I find it strange many are automatically assuming something sexual here, in this case, father was married to woman {step-mom to kid}, likely this is the issue of the domestic violence calls to the home, the "renter" is suspicious, yes maybe he was molesting the boy, unknown to the father, I find it almost unbelievable a father would knowingly allow this, but leave that to the state bureau of investigation, you can bet the deceaseds backgrounds are being fully investigated for sexual issues, my suspicious nature asks why did this happen right after the visit from the biological mom, she seems to have a air tight alibi, being back in Mississippi when shots were fired on wednesday, but does she have a boyfriend, if so where was he during all this event, if this boy did this and I am not sure if he did or not, since any 8 year old can be presuaded to say or do anything by a adult he loves such as his mother, whether she was fit, unfit, fighting for custody or not, my suspicious nature says something was amiss here, either some abuse either non sexual, sexual, occured and if not, no child simply kills his dad and another man for no reason, something strange exists, here and it might be a murder plot by mother, and a compliant boyfriend, or a mother so desperate to win custody she induced her son to kill his dad! I find the whole issue sad, disturbing and hope the truth comes out!

[think51]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can blame guns for such acts as this. Face it, society is going to hell in a handbag. Rather than face this fact, it''s easier to blame the inate object that is picked up to aid in the job. You can ban any and all things that could be used to harm someone, but you can''t ban the desire they have to do the things they do. Until people realize this, and start treating the disease instead of the symptoms, nothing will change. They will just find a new and probably more effective way to do their perverted acts.

[usmc1968]

There is racial over tones to this case, names of the deceased are hispanic, so one might assume the kid is hispanic, which leads one to ask would a white 8 year old boy be subjected to coeircive interrogation as he was by obviously white police officers? I can bet the issue is being looked at by ACLU, La Raza and rightly so! I am white, and have no dog in this fight, it disturbs me some hicks in St. Johns, not fit to be police officers might have induced a false confession out of a 8 year old boy, which has been documented to have occured by children older than this boy, so it is not beyond the realm of possible!

[berniepeders]

This is a sign of the times- I''m 56 years old, and when I was a kid (pre-teen), everyone in our neighborhood had guns in their homes, and no one had gun safes or racks, they were just stacked in their cases in the closet. Our dads taught us how to use them safely, so we didn''t have much curiosity about them. We only took them out when it was time to go hunting. Now though, kids don''t know diddly about guns and gun safety, and they are inured to gun violence from movies and video games.
Peace

[berniepeders]

"There could be no shooting without guns. When you bring weapons into your home the chances of death are increased." Posted by Professor209

But Professor, why, when we all had many guns in our homes, (and dads who sometimes gave us spankings or punishments we didn''t like), why weren''t there a lot more shootings then? I don''t recall EVER hearing about someone purposely shooting someone in anger, just an OCCASIONAL hunting accident.
Peace

[berniepeders]

My father taught me how to shoot and hunt, and I never even had the faintest desire to shoot him. It just wouldn''t enter my mind. I loved him. Kids today are just screwed up.
Peace

[usmc1968]

Professor209, I concede to be totally bewildered as to cause of this case, and yes having a 10 year old whom is into video games, and cartoons, a 8 year old might have no real concept of death, killing, in fact in most court systems, a hearing has to be held pre-testimony of any child 7 and under to determine if they know fantasy from reality, so your right this kid might have been taught to hunt, might have did this horrible crime, but as a father of a 10 year old I guess I am just bewildered, by this case, and I live in arizona, and the rural arizona towns are different than the big cities, hunting, gun ownership is second nature, my view is this father made one big mistake, not keeping the gun under lock and key, but I still am suspicious of the mothers visit prior to this incident, he convienantly being back in Mississippi when killings occured, one can assume a custody issue existed, she might have a boyfriend, if so, I would hope the arizona state bureau of investigation is investigating his where abouts during this time frame, and if the boy as reported denied the killing at first, and only confessed after coercive interrogation by St. Johns police, I suspect a possible false confession maybe, or maybe not, trully this case is disturbing to me, as a father, cannot fathom it, my dad was a abusive alcoholic, to me and mom, I never killed him, nor would have ever considered the idea no matter how mad I got at him.

[mygramma]

My gawd!!! The police chief wants to try this youngster as an adult while also recognizing that something was very wrong in the house??? Something is very wrong with the chief''s head and the heads of the idiot legislators that enacted such a statute.

There is only one explanation for such thinking -- revenge and blind retribution. A statute like Arizona''s would deter crimes by 8 year old children who can''t even fully forecast the consequences of casting a spit wad in their 3rd grade class??? Give me a farging break. It''s the adults in this case that should go on trial for perpetrating stupidity.

[think51]

I see on this same page today where 2 people were stabbed and killed in their home. Maybe we should not allow knives in the home either, Huh?

[displeased]

The formula is simple. No guns=No shootings!~
Posted by Professor209

It''s not hat simple. The more accurate formula...No guns = Reduced shootings. You will never eradicate all the guns in the US.

[gdig60804]

I think it is disgusting that any parent would teach small children 8 and under to kill animals and use a rifle . That in itself is abusive! How can any parent have a small child hold and use a gun of any sort with bullets? That in itself should be illegal. Then to hold the child responsible and punish him for something he cannot possible comprehend is absurd!! This kid needs extensive therapy a guardian ad litum and a lifetime of prayers.

[groggyrock]

1st, the parents would have to be partially responsible, since the boy was able to get his hands on the gun. So, here is one time where it may be possible to actually put a little blame on the victim (oh right, he''s dead, blame won''t change his ways) 2nd I also got a kick out of the fact the young boy didn''t have a long rap sheet. That''s some pretty tight and fast police work, let''s see seven years ago there were rumors he pooped his diapers and wet the bed. No, there does need to be an instruction manual and a test, before people are allowed to become parents.

[honestabe8]

Wait until Sherriff Joe gets hold of the little tyke...

[pinewalker-2009]

You all belong in a utopian society. This tragic accident has yet to unfold. It may be that the truth will take years to uncover. It could be the child mistook the "real" weapon for a cap gun or water weapon. On the other hand, maybe allegations of abuse may be grounded in truth. No matter what, execution without legal process is illegal, and lack of knowledge of the law is not an absolutioning factor. The child SHOULD be held accountable for his actions, no more!!! He MUST be given the fair and honest rights our great country is founded upon.

[mugaluv]

This is so sad. It seems to me that the missing equation was love. His parents probably were full of hate, so the little guy learned nothing about self-respect or self-control from them. Children are a blessing (no matter the circumstances of their birth) and should be treated like they are exactly that. It won''t do us any good to haggle about who is more at fault; somebody let this little boy down. I am so sorry this happened to him and the victims. I''m praying for him, but I know he won''t learn anything about love in a juvenile detention center. There has to be a better punishment. God bless you little one.

[slim1h2o]

Wait until Sherriff Joe gets hold of the little tyke...

Posted by honestabe8 at 01:45 PM : Nov 09, 2008

Pink undies?

[luvcomments]

So many seem to blame guns, knives, etc. I have to agree I abhor teaching children to slaughter animals as their merciless fathers do. Appalling. However, it''s not the guns and knives, it''s what is going on..... many factors could be involved.

When I was 8 I tried to poison my father, a vicious bully to my mother and myself. Before I gave it to him (in his coffee) I slung it out because I didn''t want my mother to be accused and hung (not in the US).

So, I know that an 8 year old can know full well what he/she is doing but when it seems there''s no way out a mere child is desperate. I might add that because I didn''t want my mother blamed, I tried three times to poison myself - was so disappointed when, the following mornings, I was still alive :) This was 60 years ago. So before you stand on your orange box and spout off about guns and knives, think a bit.

[dewbug2]

okay,all you anti- gun (anti- American) democrat dipsticks, jump on the anti gun bandwagon one more time!!!!
If the alleged 30 000 gun related deaths mentioned previously is an accurate figure (which it ain''t) I want to ask how many of those guns were controlled by a HUMAN? then what is the common denominator???? the gun or the human ????did those shootings include any by a "legal" shooter, such as a cop wasting some lowlife?
The "guns kill people" crowd will continue to spout their idiotic ideas until somebody finally shoots the last of the morons.
As for the little kid, if those two were molesting him and abusing him, they SHOULD HAVE been shot....and probably earlier than they were.

[credibility2]

I don''t buy the abuse premise. This kid is off his beam and more than likely planned the two murders. The laws need to be changed to charge even kids this young as an adult. He knew enough about guns and what they can do. He is old enough to be charged and punished as an adult. Keep him in prison for the rest of his natural life. He murdered two people. There''s absolutely no excuse or reasoning for this.

[luvcomments]

Professor209

You say I chose other ways to kill? You are another of our too many educated idiots. If you could read, you would have read that I didn''t kill anybody. But my initial plan, driven by no way out, was not via guns or knives. And, since you obviously are not very well educated, guns don''t pull their own triggers...... not on your best day. Guns don''t decide to kill and neither do knives. Go back to school.