Why The French Can Afford To Get Sick

Sunday Morning: Medical Care In France Is Efficient, Quick, And Costs Half What Americans Spend On Health Care

(CBS)  "A votre sante" ... "To your health" … say the French as they raise a glass in toast. The French do take health care seriously, and provide it in a system quite different from our own. Our Man in Paris, David Turecamo, offers his take on the French model:

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This summer in Paris my friends Matt and Noemi had twins. Matt's British so they ended up naming their sons George and Alistair. But Noemi's French - and that's what's important here, because the entire family is covered by the French Social Security system.

So, even though the boys were delivered by Cesarean section and Noemi spent nine days in a private room, after leaving the hospital they paid …

"19 euros, for the TV," Matt said.

That's around twenty-five dollars.

Well, they also paid a $165 for the first night, but for twins delivered by Cesarean, and nine days in a private room, and the cost was about $190?

Maybe we could learn anything from it.

"All the people coming to our emergency department are treated equal," a doctor told Turecamo. "We can't say to a patient, 'Oh, you don't have money or the right kind of insurance.'"

In fairness, emergency rooms in the United States are obliged to treat and at least stabilize everyone - but because of the cost many Americans never see a doctor until it's an emergency.

If anything the French go to doctors too much simply because they can afford it. You see, a typical office visit will cost them 22 euros. That's about $28.

"Obviously that would make an American laugh," the doctor said.

But don't laugh - 65% is covered by the national health system. The rest is picked up by private insurance which is available to everyone at a nominal cost. But even with that, one doctor in private practice told me, "If a patient has a big problem - no job, nothing - I say 'Okay - don't pay.'"

You should know French doctors make a lot less than their American counterparts - roughly $50,000 to $100,000 a year - because the French government (not doctors or pharmaceutical companies) sets the prices for everything - prices they feel are reasonable.

While critics argue that's socialized medicine, some doctors argue it's what we call managed care.

"Most of the time it doesn't cost anything for the patient," said the doctor.

So the French go to a drug store to fill a prescription and most people don't pay anything.

Sound good?

Well, eight years ago the World Health Organization released a study ranking France as having the best health care system in the world.

"Well, even the French tend to roll their eyes when they hear that," David said, "and the study itself has been criticized for its methodology.

"But it's not just the quality of health care this country offers, it's the fact that it's offered to everyone. Every man, woman and child who is a legal resident in France is covered by national health care."

It's a comprehensive system that's innovative as well. When you call the emergency number (SAMU is like our EMS, or emergency medical services), first you talk to a doctor ...

"Oui, bonjour c'est le docteur du samu."

… who decides whether or not your case is an emergency. It's a time- and cost-effective measure because out of every thousand calls they receive, only about fifty turn about to be real medical emergencies.

"That means in more than 95% of the case we can deal with the call without using the full team," the SAMU medical chief said.

Because the full SAMU team in France includes a doctor, nurse, technicians and a battery of equipment and drugs, including drugs you will not see in an American ambulance. "These are drugs for general anesthesia," the SAMu staffer said. "We have all the monitoring; we have the possibility to give the drugs with infusion with a computer. It's like having a small part of the emergency room in the street."

See, in the U.S. ambulance teams are paramedics whose job is to get a patient to the nearest hospital quickly. Here the idea is to bypass the emergency room altogether. The patient is treated at the scene (on average for about 45 minutes), and when she is moved to a hospital it's one chosen not for its proximity but for its specialty

"We think this hospital is the better place for this type of disease," the SAMU doctor said.

Because treatment has already begun, the patient is taken directly to the specialized ward where the specialist is waiting for her.

Are there failures? Of course … case in point: the death of Princess Diana, which some say was caused because SAMU spent more than an hour and a half treating her at the scene before moving her to a hospital.

But overall, doctors agree the system is pretty effective.

"If you have some paramedics that is allowed to do some procedures that's good," SAMU medical chief said. "But where is the diagnosis? To go in the hospital and to save time we need a precise diagnosis."

But what if it's not an emergency? What if it's, like, well, during this January blizzard a few years back, my daughter ran a fever and …

Look, every doctor makes house calls, but this group, SOS Medecins, specializes in making house calls at off-hours and weekends

They respond to about 2 million calls a year across France and can have a doctor at your home or hotel generally within an hour of your call.

They receive no state support and charge 52 euros, or about $65 for a visit - which generally is fully reimbursable.

Of course, all this comes with a price tag.

On a per capita basis it costs the French about $3,400 a year for health care, most of which, they complain, comes from taxes.

But in the U.S., per capita spending for health care is almost double that figure

And there are still roughly forty six million Americans who are uninsured.

And while the French are determined to preserve their system (it's currently running a 12 to 14 billion dollar deficit), most agree something's got to change.

"People come to France just to have free care and they don't pay," one doctor said.

So, is their system really better than ours?

Well, the only thing I can really say definitively is, in France you can go to the hospital without going broke.

[d0rrell]

When will we in the United States wise up to the fact that health insurance for all is necessary. Even if we had a minimum level for all that allowed individuals to see a nurse or other health care personal at the first sign of a medical problem would save money over the current system. The fact that we pay one of the highest percentage of GNP for health care of major industrial countries and have 46 million uninsured is crazy.

[graylion1]

French doctors make roughly $50,000 to $100,000 a year. I am an LPN in Arkansas and make over $40,000 a year.

William Vogler, LPN

[ahmtk]

France Why do we want to copy a country that only works 4 days a month. They do not have the drive or will of this country. As a Texan we are required to see illegals who yank down our health system requiring the tax payers to tighten the belt and pay higher cost of insurance France only takes care of France we take care of every body. as Jerry Seinfeild quoted on one of his shows "French and rude who saw it comming"

[rmherbst]

I enjoyed the segment; however, an important aspect was left out--the role of the insurance companies. Our son had to have shoulder surgery. We have insurance and it cost us about $150.00. The bill was $27,000.00; the healthcare providers accepted $7,000.00 as paid in full from BCBS of Alabama. If we did not have insurance, our cost would have been the total $27K! The insurance company have too much power. In the U.S. there are those who make way to much money on the ill health of others, and it is not the doctors.

The United States has the resources and ability to do something simular to what the french are doing much better--including pay received by our healthcare professionals.

For all the conservative out there who push pro-life issues,doesn''t everyone have the right to live? Medical care should be a right, not a luxury!!!

[hypnotoad72]

For all the conservatives out there who push pro-life issues,doesn''''t everyone have the right to live? Medical care should be a right, not a luxury!!!

Posted by rmherbst at 10:56 AM : Oct 26, 2008
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Excellent point.

[lmdm1]

Sarah Pallin buys some of her own clothing from consignment shops in Alaska. More one sided, inaccurate reporting about her campaign clothes.

[aladdin49]

France Why do we want to copy a country that only works 4 days a month. They do not have the drive or will of this country. As a Texan we are required to see illegals who yank down our health system requiring the tax payers to tighten the belt and pay higher cost of insurance France only takes care of France we take care of every body. as Jerry Seinfeild quoted on one of his shows "French and rude who saw it comming"
Being French, I particularly enjoyed the comments from AHMTK. Immigrants are taken care of in France too. One thing I find particularly telling is the state of one''s teeth don''t necessarily tell one''s income - many of our U.S. friends couldn''t afford braces for their children - unheard of here. And whre does he get the "only work 4 days a week" stuff? We work 35 hours a week, have 5 - 6 weeks vacation per year and are still more productive than Americans. Quality of life is indeed very important - eg time spent with family. I''d heard about people from Texas and you have confirmed the stereotype.

[jn122736]

For all the conservative out there who push pro-life issues,doesn''''t everyone have the right to live? Medical care should be a right, not a luxury!!!

Posted by rmherbst at 10:56 AM : Oct 26, 2008
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Absolutely!!!

Protection against sickness and injuries are every bit as important as protection against military attacks, and socialized health care would be viewed no differently than our socialized military defense.

[ubrew12]

For sale: one thousand tons of freedom fries with a little too much ''liberty'' seasoning.

Will trade for decent health insurance.

[jonstorm-2009]

Viva la France

I would take France over Texas any day. They also have more visitor arrivals than any other country in the world. To all you dimwits living in our red states that says alot. If France is such a joke why does everyone want to visit there. And if you haven''t had the chance or opportunity I feel really sad for you because the French know how to live..

From an American in Hawaii

[normspier]

Thanks for your timely story. I found it informative. I did find it tended to understate what various health policy analysts have found as a big flaw in the McCain plan: increasing reliance on the individual market (the least efficient--paying out only 70 cebts in medical bills for every dollar of premiums paid in), and as well as a WORSENING of problems for people with pre-existing conditions, due to REMOVED STATEWISE REGULATION WORSENING PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS PROTECTIONS from the varying statewise levels of pre-existing-conditions protection. As well, McCain seems to destroy the current funding mechanism for high-risk pools in 26 states, by allowing insurance to be bought across state lines.

(For those interested, I''ve actually done some looking into the pre-existing conditon issue in both the McCain and Obama plans. I''ve also done some statewise research for each state on the current (usually risky) situation with pre-existing conditions, posted at: http://www.nastechservices.com/HealthInsuranceUSAPolicy.html )

Lets hope the country can stop the medical bankruptcies and deaths due to uninsurance. Most ridiculous--this is the only industrialized country where this happens, and we spend about double what the others are spending. (Last industrialized country to abandon our system was Switzerland in 1994.)

[north1949]

AHMTK, I agree with Aladdin49. (I not French, but I am Canadian, and we also have universal access to medical care.) In fact, Ontario surpassed Michegan
as a car manufacturer, because of our medical system. Consider that medical insurance and benefits costs for American car manufacturers add about$6500
dollars annually for each employee. Because we have socialized medicine, the employee benefits package costs less than $800 annually. Do the math. Most industrialized countries have some form of socialized medicine, which makes them highly attractive to employers. I also agree with Aladdin49, in that countries such as France, and to a less extend, Canada, put more value on the quality of life than on dollars and cents. Wouldn''t you rather live and work in a country that allows you optimum time with your family without subtracting from your standard of living? Americans have to work so very hard for so very little.

[fseipel]

A logical question to pose: Would this program ever run a segment on how France''s nuclear program is a model to be followed and why the US is still burning coal? Of course not. The stories chosen, as well as the content, is biased, based on politics.

There are no free lunches. Universal coverage will increase costs. Historically, government is not an efficient mechanism to deliver services; look only at the cost increases per year for Medicare/Mediacaid and the unbelievable fraud.

We need *more* competition in healthcare to drive costs down, NOT less. This might be achieved by changes in how we pay for services: making hospitals post rates for services, require individuals without insurance OR insurance companies be charged the same rate for identical services, and, instead of simple deductibles, making me pay a certain percent of total cost of a procedure, thereby, encouraging me to choose the lowest cost hospital/supplier.

To those who believe Universal Care is most efficient, why, then, should the government not adopt 5 year plans governing allocation of resources in other industries? Wouldn''t that improve efficiencies? Hasn''t this been tried before?

Even if you do believe in Universal coverage, a more market-driven approach would be to subsidize private insurance, giving each citizen an allowance if they can''t afford it. At least the insurance companies would act to control costs.

[paradude2]

Well you guys that are Americans will get your wish most likely. One of you should research the average tax rate for France. Compare that to us here in the U.S. I am a health care provider. I am a Paramedic who must work 2 full time jobs to support his family. I am not paid enough, but I am paid better than these doctors in France, and luckily I don''t have to pay their taxes.

Look, this sounds wonderful but the cost will be prohibitive.... Trust me. Problem is, once Universal Health care starts, it can never stop. It will only get more expensive, and the money has to come from somewhere. If any of you buy that "only tax the rich" line, I have some ocean front property here in Tennessee you will be interested in. That''s the oldest "bait and switch" line in politics.

Look, this is probably a moot point, because we likely won''t even have the numbers with which to even filibuster in Washington for at least the next four years, so all these European aspirations that the left has is probably gonna come true.

I wonder what will happen to the 650+ dollars that my employer pays to my health insurance???? Oh yeah! They''ll keep it. Good for them!!

[xlib]

mherbst-would that go for a baby who had the AUDACITY to survive a late term abortion attempt??? Answer, does it??
Talk about picking and choosing.
So, for all those who think France is great-SEE YA.

[xlib]

jn122736-and do you agree that the individual has a responsibility for his/her health or should the government control everything??

[jaykay3141]

Thank you for a story about a European health care system other than Britain''s!

Too many Americans are unwilling to look at another culture, and God forbid if has a different language too - it might as well be on Mars. I''ve been lucky enough to travel in France and Germany (et oui, je parle francais; auch kann ich Deutsch sprechen) and long ago saw just how much we have to learn. By eliminating duplication, covering pre-existing conditions, letting everyone see a doctor BEFORE a condition worsens, their plans cost far less per capita and people are healthier! The Wall Street Journal''s hardly a leftist looney tabloid and even they''ve said we can''t continue to lose 30% of our health-care $$ on administration, vs. 2 to 4% for other systems elsewhere - including Medicare.

Before any extremists drag out the "S" word again, ask if you want a health care system where bureaucrats overrule doctors, decide who gets treated and who doesn''t, and line their own pockets at public expense. It''s called corporate socialized medicine - we already have it and it sure as h$#! doesn''t work.

The right-wing types who still chant "we''re the best" remind me of the NY Yankees in the 1970s. They relied on images of Ruth and DiMaggio long after the team had descended into mediocrity. They remained the best team in baseball only in their own minds, while other clubs ate their lunch and dinner. The Yankees improved only after they accepted how far they''d fallen. Seems to me there''s a parallel here.

[paradude2]

I ask again.... Taz rate on countries with universal health care?

[ljb6599]

Americans would never accept this type of medical care because they are too stupid to believe that it could actually save them money while still providing good care. The first time most Americans experience similar care is when they retire and go on medicare.I have never heard one senior citizen ever complain about medicare other than please never take it away!!!!

[north1949]

JayKay3141, From looking over some of these posts, I would have to agree with you that Americans simply can''t look outside their own system. As for taxes, mine here in Canada were only slightly higher than a friend of mine in Colorado. If you added in the exorbitant amount she was paying for health insurance, I won the "disposable income" test, hands down. As well, if I lose my job, I don''t lose my health care benefits. I don''t have to worry about "pre-existing conditions". I chose my own doctor. Yes, for some procedures there is a bit of
queue, but at least no one has to claim bankruptcy to cover medical costs. NO ONE!! NOT ONCE CANADIAN I KNOW HAS EVER HAD TO CLAIM BANKRUPTCY FOR MEDICAL COSTS. Not having universal health care is dragging down your economy, shortening your lives, responsible for companies outsourcing jobs to other countries.
Again, you seem to work so very hard for so very little.

[paradude2]

Spoken as one of those stupid Americans, let me answer my question on tax rate for France. It''s about 50 percent, and they are at a deficit. I am talking personal tax, not corporate tax. Corporate tax rate is much less in France. Whereas, our corporate tax rate is much higher than our personal tax rate. See where the "bait and switch" comes in?

We have argueably some of the best doctors in the world here in the U.S. Yes, they are at the top of their field because they strive for excellence, and service to their fellow man, but if there was not prosperity in the way of big money at the end, I doubt they would care as much. Look at many of the "doctors" of the former Soviet Union. They were paid about the same as a bus driver, and their apathy was legendary.

[ubrew12]

North1949 said: "you [Americans] seem to work so very hard for so very little. "

True dat. And not only do we work hard, but our ''betters'' in our society have for 30 years felt that with a little paddle in the butt, we could work EVEN harder!!! That''s why they''ve gifted us a $10 trillion debt to work off, which will only take the rest of our lives.

Thanks older generation, for the opportunity to work my fingers to the bone!!!

[north1949]

Paradude, perhaps you should "google" some of the cutting edge medicine that has come out of Canada. The Universty of Alberta Hospital is cutting edge in children''s transplants (liver) and several years ago pioneered research in diabetes. Just last week, one of North America''s leading neuroscientists, a specialist in the neurology of Alzheimers, was awarded $20 million dollars and is returning to Alberta from the University of Arizona. I''d rather pay a neuroscientist $20 million dollars than give the same amount to a baseball player!!
As for our health care getting more expensive...well, since it is a single-payer/single provider system, and has taxpayer oversight, admin costs are constantly being scrutinized so that direct care dollars increase. You just don''t get it, do you!!

[north1949]

Hey, Paradude, where are you? Also, I would like you to look at some of the medical breakthroughs that have come out of France, GB, and other countries with socialized medicine. I would like to see you really refute the article, especially the last section, that virtually renders the screaming amulances and the EMT''s obsolete. To paraphrase an oldie....When will we ever learn?....

[north1949]

Hey, Paradude...you talk about the $650 that your US employer has to pay for your health benefits. Here in Candada...in Alberta....for my AHCIC benefits...after Jan 1, 2009..it is $0. for health insurance. If I were a telemarketer, or working in the automotive industry...where would the job move? To the US, where I have to pay $650 a month for an employee, or to Alberta, where I have to pay $0.00 for health insurance for an employee. BTW, Nieman-Marcus put its call centre in Edmonton, Alberta for just that reason!!

[abectriza]

Yesterday I watched Michael Moore''s Sicko which adresses this exact issue and how the life expectancy is higer in France, Canada, Britain, Germany an many other countries than in the US.

[north1949]

Hey, Paradude and Xlib, where are you? I was just starting to enjoy the debate, when you disappeared.
Or is it, when faced with the fact, from France, from GB, from Sweden, from Denmark, from Germany, from Switzerland, from any other industrialized country...that socialized medicine not only works, it works well, does not inhibit research, serves the public, and makes you competitive in the global market? Where is the debate? Where are all the neo-cons? Where are all those who would have US citizens die for lack of insurance? Come on...debate the issue!!

[bsmith2079]

"You should know French doctors make a lot less than their American counterparts - roughly $50,000 to $100,000 a year - because the French government (not doctors or pharmaceutical companies) sets the prices for everything - prices they feel are reasonable." All discussion is about WHO should pay...not WHY IT COSTS SO MUCH! Does anyone else notice that doctors live in the fanciest parts of town and drive the fanciest cars? Granted, their education costs are high, but don''t they eventually get paid off??? I only know two doctors whose lifestyles approximate mine. And I''m not poor!

[north1949]

Abectriza, You are so correct..as was M. Moore, although he was guilty of using some hyperbole in his film. The point is that Americans have been so brainwashed by the neo-cons, by the insurance companies, by the for profit providers, that they cannot see outside the box. I am a 60 year old Canadian lady. My life expectancy far outweighs that of an American lady, especially a black American lady.
Here there is no difference...all ladies have the same life expectancy. Mammogram...free. PAP...free.
Blood work...free. My doctor is not afraid to tell me if I am overweight or if I smoke too much, and it is to his benefit to prescribe and support a diet, and a smoking cessation program. It is to his benefit to keep me healthy and alive and enjoying life. He is not constrained by an insurance company, who tells him what care I need. I trust my doctor, and I trust my government. That is the difference!!

[endofempire]

Apparently, Mr. Moorer''s utopia has a different side, seen from his former school mate Kevin Leffler, who traveled to Cuba and filmed the truth about a regime that treats paying customers from abroad but turns away their own sickos:

''''Moore''s behavior is malicious and hypocritical,'''' said Leffler, 51.

``For those of us who have followed his footsteps during these years, his falseness about the Cuban health system and the deplorable state of medical services that Cuban nationals receive shouldn''t surprise us.''''

The Cuban footage was shot in November 2007. It includes scenes at Miguel Enriquez Hospital in Havana that show a dilapidated facility and the somber panorama of the reception area.

''''It is very exciting to know that the images filmed by Kevin Leffler will be seen in the U.S., as he had the bravery to come to Cuba to find out the reality of this nation''s healthcare system,'''' said Ferrer, who runs the Juan Bruno Zayas Center for Health and Human Rights in Cuba.

[endofempire]

Kevin L. Leffler, an accountant and university professor who grew up in Michigan and went to high school with Moore, embarked on his own cinematic adventure as a counterpoint to his former classmate. His documentary, Shooting Michael Moore, is an 80-minute analysis of the conduct and premises touted by Moore.

In Shooting Michael Moore, Leffler contrasts the scenes of the American patients being attentively cared for in the Havana clinic with images of Cuban citizens seeking care at the same facility being turned away.

The dialogue between the hospital''s receptionists and dissident physician Darsi Ferrer and his journalist friend Jaime Leygonier, who request appointments for MRIs, was captured with a hidden camera, and shows a reality far removed from the scenes in Sicko.

[smurfcrusher]

"Apparently, Mr. Moorer''''s utopia has a different side, seen from his former school mate Kevin Leffler, who traveled to Cuba and filmed the truth about a regime that treats paying customers from abroad but turns away their own sickos:

''''''''Moore''''s behavior is malicious and hypocritical,'''''''' said Leffler, 51.

``For those of us who have followed his footsteps during these years, his falseness about the Cuban health system and the deplorable state of medical services that Cuban nationals receive shouldn''''t surprise us.''''''''

The Cuban footage was shot in November 2007. It includes scenes at Miguel Enriquez Hospital in Havana that show a dilapidated facility and the somber panorama of the reception area.

''''''''It is very exciting to know that the images filmed by Kevin Leffler will be seen in the U.S., as he had the bravery to come to Cuba to find out the reality of this nation''''s healthcare system,'''''''' said Ferrer, who runs the Juan Bruno Zayas Center for Health and Human Rights in Cuba."


Posted by endofempire

I''m sure our longstanding embargo doesn''t impact the country at all, so any shortcomings must be entirely Cuba''s fault.

...I wonder how it is, that Cuba has developed in some cases, superior medicine than in the U.S. ? Such as a vaccine for a strain of hepatitis that the US doesn''t have.. Hmmm....

[abectriza]

Forget about Moore, the fact is, I lived in different parts of the world, and I can tell, when I needed a doctor, I was treated in a different manner: doctors spend even one hour talking to you, getting to know you, devoting their time to the patient. Contrary to the US where they want you out of their offices as soon as possible! In many nations, Medicine is not a business and patients are not profitable assets.

[north1949]

You make that point so well,Abectriza. Doctors in the United States are controlled by the insurers. In countries with socialized medicine, there is nothing coming between the doctor and the patient. The doctors are there for the patient, and they can care for the patient without intereference.

[daisyifyou2]

I thought it was interesting that the woman who owned the restaurant couldn''t afford health insurance for her employees, who make minimum wage or 1/2 of minimum wage and their tips make up the rest of their wages. The employees are what makes her business succeed. I wonder how much profit she makes in comparison to what it would cost for insurance for her employees...hmm.

[incog-nito]

Universal health care not only works, it''s the moral thing to do.

[incog-nito]

In other countries doctors make roughly the same as other professionals with similar levels of education. In America they''re multimillionaire businessmen. This, plus the additional cost of private insurance middlemen, is the reason health care costs in the U.S. is through the roof.

[kesac4650]

No Malpractice lawsuits, cut medical costs 30% right there. Then there are all the tests and procedures that Doctors subject us to these days, just in case it all goes to court, the Dr. can demonstrate that he took no shortcuts. There is a big part of our costs right there, that the French and many other countries have sidestepped.

[slim1h2o]

Doctors in the U.S. are nothing but ***$ to Big Pharma.

Nothing more, nothing less....

[slim1h2o]

***$= W/hoer$

[treehugger55]

Nobody can understand the financial squeeze of the doctors unless they''ve actually been in their shoes. Their business costs go up, up, up every year, and reimbursements keep falling. I do not understand why anybody would begrudge a doctor making a good living when they''ve invested so much time in school and training. In addition, they are constantly a target for malpractice suits in a society where the plaintiff has no financial risk in accusing a physician, but the physician must pay fully for the attorneys, time off from work, and damage to their reputation, even if the accuser has no case. The malpractice system in the US is pretty much a lottery system, whereby anybody thinks they can squeeze out something if they can harass enough to get a doctor to cry "uncle!" and make them pay. It''s legal extortion, as far as I''m concerned. I would love to see how much someone would want to be paid after spending half of their lives in school and training -- how much would YOU want to be paid?

[dinkydog1]

No Malpractice lawsuits, cut medical costs 30% right there. Then there are all the tests and procedures that Doctors subject us to these days, just in case it all goes to court, the Dr. can demonstrate that he took no shortcuts. There is a big part of our costs right there, that the French and many other countries have sidestepped.

Posted by kesac4650 at 05:51 AM : Oct 27, 2008

.............................

Sorry sparky, According to a Congressional Budget Study (Republican presiding) medical malpratice law suits only account for .2% of all US medical cost.. Why do you think Bush dropped his "tort reform" like a hot rock? The report also said only a small percentage of malpratice ever resulted in litagation and defensive medicine at most only added another .1%.

Looks like you conservatives will have to think up another excuse to block progress. Why dont you try the equally as stupid "healthcare rationing in Canada" argument?

[standlee5]

Exactly, then let''s just be France. Vote pelosi/reid/obama and we''ll be the cute litte european country they dream of running. Turn USA into ussa, vote pelosi/reid/obama.

[incog-nito]

treehugger55: There are many other fields requiring just as much postgraduate education as a medical doctor. There''s nothing wrong with making a good living using your education, but MDs in the U.S. have taken it to new levels. Not just the MDs but the insurance companies are at fault here.

My company''s health care premium shot up 13% this year. My wife''s company a whopping 25%. This has been going on year after year for decades now, while income stagnates. Defend the current system if you want, but the fact is it simply cannot be sustained. It''s mathematically impossible.

[north1949]

Standlee5, you prove my point that most Americans are simply unable to look at other countries and learn from there. France, and its wonderful health care system, are as different from the late USSR as chalk is from cheese. You Americans just don''t get it!!

[curtisgbnfl]

Health care is a many faceted issue. France doesn''t have all the answers. They know that. That''s why they elected Sarkozy, because they are rational enough to know some things are broken and need to be fixed.

Problem is they have people who vote with molotov coctails instead of ballots (when they don''t get their way).

Socialized medicine models are falling apart in Canada and the UK as well. People that aren''t enslaved to rationed health care--won''t use it. They''ll travel to a Swiss clinic (or similar) and get a higher level of care than what is determined they are ''eligible'' for. Remember, at one point, Ohio had more MRI machines than the nation of France.

There ain''t no such thing as a free lunch and there ain''t no such thing as state of the art free health care. Rationing is a staple of socialized medicine.

You could buy an insurance policy that would cover every procedure you could possible want. Trouble is--we can''t afford it.

[paradude2]

Ok, I didn''t quit the debate. I was working. I had ambulance calls where sick people who would not pay their bills, were treated with dignity and respect and the highest level of care I can give.

Trust me, I am not an elitist. I believe that everyone whould recieve the best health care possible. I don''t like the idea that pharmaceutical companies get fabulously wealthy after hardworking scientists and chemists develop breakthrough medicines that will keep people alive that would otherwise die, as well as make millions of lives better. I do however, feel that doctors should live at least in the upper middle class financial bracket. Its more than just schooling, it is the gruelling internship they must complete as well as other things. I want them to know that being the best they can be is good for their standard of living.

I live in Tennessee.

[dianetu]

I just looked up the population of France and found it to be almost 64.5 million people. The population of the US is almost 305.2 million. Would anyone be willing to do the math on what France''s debt would be at our population levels?
What about the land area differences?
It''s hard to compare the US to our EU neighbors. There are good and bad points to both systems and comparing them in such broad strokes is unfair to all.

[paradude2]

As for people dying due to lack of insurance...

I don''t want to derail this thread, so lets keep off the whole illegal immigrant thing for now.

A couple of years ago, I responded to the local health department. It was for a young man who did not speak any English. He was an illegal migrant worker who was having severe difficulty breathing. He had gotten sick, and due to condtitions these poor guys live in, it had deteriorated to a severe case of pneumonia. I ended up intubating him before I got him to the hospital, and he spended a week or so in ICU, and a total of a couple of weeks in the hospital before he was released.

[dianetu]

I just looked up the population of France and found it to be almost 64.5 million people. The population of the US is almost 305.2 million. Would anyone be willing to do the math on what France''s debt would be at our population levels?
What about the land area differences?
It''s hard to compare the US to our EU neighbors. There are good and bad points to both systems and comparing them in such broad strokes is unfair to all.