In Israel, Christians Feud Over Holy Site

Coptic And Ethiopian Christians Fight Over Monastery Near Purported Site Of Jesus' Crucifixion

(AP)  Two rival monks are posted at all times in a rooftop courtyard at the site where tradition holds Jesus was crucified: a bearded Copt in a black robe and an Ethiopian sunning himself on a wooden chair, studiously ignoring each other as they fight over the same sliver of sacred space.

For decades, Coptic and Ethiopian Christians have been fighting over the Deir el-Sultan monastery, which sits atop a chapel at the ancient Church of the Holy Sepulcher. The monastery is little more than a cluster of dilapidated rooms and a passageway divided into two incense-filled chapels, an architectural afterthought alongside the Holy Sepulcher's better-known features.

And yet Deir el-Sultan has become the subject of a feud that has gone far beyond the walls of Jerusalem's Old City. The Ethiopians control the site, but the Egypt-based Copts say they own it and see the Ethiopians as illegal squatters.

The quarrel has erupted into brawls - in 2002, when the Coptic monk moved his chair into the shade and too close to the Ethiopians, a dozen people were hurt in the ensuing melee. And today, the Ethiopians claim the battle for control could result in the monastery's collapse and even in damage to other parts of the church, one of the holiest sites in Christendom.

Since the 1970s, the Israeli government has refused to allow renovations or significant repairs at the disputed monastery until the Ethiopians and the Copts come to terms. That hasn't happened, and the Ethiopian Church says the years of neglect have put the structure in danger. The Copts suggest the Ethiopians are merely trying to further cement their hold.

The Ethiopian Church commissioned a report from an Israeli engineer backing up its claim, and in early October the Ethiopian patriarch, Archbishop Matthias, asked the Israeli government to carry out urgent repairs. The archbishop attached the engineer's assessment that the humble monastery structure could collapse - and possibly damage the chapel below - if steps are not taken to repair it.

The report, compiled by Yigal Berman of the Milav engineering firm, cited "safety hazards" that "endanger the lives of the monks and the visitors," according to a report in the daily Haaretz newspaper. Yifredew Getnet, a spokesman for the Ethiopian Embassy to Israel, confirmed the report. A committee made up of embassy representatives, churchmen and lay leaders has been appointed to oversee the monastery, he said.

Outside the monastery, Coptic monk Antonious El-Orshlemy said his church owns Deir el-Sultan and the Ethiopian claim that the monastery is about to collapse is false.

"The building is very fine, and not dangerous to someone," he said.

The most recent round of the feud over Deir el-Sultan began in 1970, when Ethiopian monks changed the locks while the Copts were at services on the eve of Easter and moved in.

The Ethiopian Church has six monasteries and 70 monks in the Holy Land, according to the office of the patriarch. A handful are stationed at Deir el-Sultan. The main parts of the Holy Sepulcher are divided between the Catholics, Armenians and Greek Orthodox.

Three years before the Easter takeover, Israel captured the Old City from Jordan in the 1967 Mideast War and found itself in charge of the Holy Sepulcher.

The Copts appealed to an Israeli court, which ruled that the Ethiopians should not have altered the fragile status quo at the church but said it was the government's job to decide what to do. The government decided not to take action, according to Daniel Rossing, director of the Jerusalem Center for Jewish-Christian Relations and an expert on the city's fractious religious mosaic.

International politics likely played a role in the decision: At the time, Israel had warm ties with Ethiopia and was at war with Egypt. Later that was reversed: Communists came to power in Ethiopia and cut ties with Israel, and Egypt and Israel signed a peace agreement. But Israel still did not act, possibly because of concerns that angering Ethiopia could hamper the emigration of the country's Jewish community.

Feuds like the one over Deir el-Sultan "don't have a solution, period," Rossing said. "The trick, then, is to do the very best job to make things as livable as possible, within the limitations of never being able to solve these issues."

Israel's interior minister, Meir Sheetrit, now plans to mediate the dispute, and the government will help renovate the site when the sides can agree on a course of action, said spokesman Ilan Marciano. But with each side entirely rejecting the other's claim to the monastery, it is unclear if an agreement is possible.

The feud is only one of a bewildering array of rivalries among churchmen in the Holy Sepulcher, where each group remains on guard against any encroachment onto their turf. Fights have flared over issues such as who is allowed to sweep which steps, and Israeli police occasionally intervene.

The Israeli government has long wanted to build a fire exit in the church, which regularly fills with thousands of pilgrims and has only one main door, but the plan is on hold because the sects cannot agree where the exit will be built. In another example, a ladder placed on a ledge over the entrance sometime in the 19th century has remained there ever since because of a dispute over who has the authority to take it down.

[eddom949]

Come to Israel, there are two guys there fighting about whether it''s open to the world or not.

[missingamerica]

Funny, how all of the religions that prohibit the worshipping of false idols all worship patches of dirt and buildings constructed by man - and spill each other''s blood on them as if to prove their devotion.

Over and over again.

For centuries - and now millenia - on end.

[ndjam]

This is a sacred site. No one should be fighting over it. This is our site, it belongs to all of us.

[indianaman13]

How can they call themselves christians when they act like satanists. Would Jesus want them to kill each other and glorify the site of his death? I bet the devil would love to trick people into killing in Jesus''s name especially where he was put on a stick. It''s like they forgot what they stand for in their want to claim a piece of earth. Here''s some logic, God is perfect which means he is above favoritism and if he created the whole world, do you think he favors one mountain over another, or one ocean more than another?

[egresor]

that''s so silly

it shows that when the bible says many ar called but few are chosen it means few

all the rest only have felt the call and think they have been chosen

and they miss the entire truth of the scriptures

that there are NO holy physical places in the world

only those filled---literally and truly---not just telling yourself it''s so because you want to believe it''s so.

when God appeared to Moses in the desert and he told Moses to take off his soes for the ground he stood on was holy? the presence of God in that place was what made it holy and when God departed from that place it was no more holier than any other place. that''s the truth.

it correlates to a single person also. if a person truly becomes filled with His Spirit that holiness is only there as long as God is there. and if God departs (actually the person departs) from that person---is that person still holy?

obviously not----nor is a physical place holy if God himself is not there at that moment---as with Moses.

that is a truth of the Bible...tho few truly see it.

[egresor]

This is a sacred site. No one should be fighting over it. This is our site, it belongs to all of us.

Posted by ndjam

with respects----you are mistaken

if God himself is not manifested at a single moment in a single place it is no more holy than another other....only a patch of earth.

if you are a christian----don''t call Jerusalem the City of God for it is not. since the new testament the City of God was no longer found in a physical place, but found in the spirit.

[airboatboy1]

"..a bearded Copt in a black robe and a Ethiopian sunning himself in a wooden chair..". A bet these two religious nutballs would be easy to reason with! How about some pictures? I''m laughin'' just thinkin'' about it!

[silverstar06]

Most amazingly, how in an arrogant fued, they are allowing not even only their, but every devout Christian''s tradition be destroyed, slowly and painfully. This has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. Merely ancient male arrogance disguised as piety.

[idnnsg]

"nor is a physical place holy if God himself is not there at that moment---as with Moses" -- egresor

Just a little FYI: God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Check out the meaning of #3 sometime. There is no place or time where God is not.

But I agree with your main point, that these people fighting over this supposedly "holy land" are simply ignorant fools.

[idnnsg]

"Here''s some logic, God is perfect which means he is above favoritism..." -- indianaman13 at 01:30 AM : Oct 26, 2008

Your concept of "logic" is a bit weak. "above favoritism" does not follow from "perfect". Your argument might as well be, "God is perfect, so he agrees with me"!

Otherwise, you made a good point.

[zwaggsy]

Still find both tragic and ironic that what should be a peaceful haven off worship can be used as an excuse for a pathetic feud by people who seem incapable of practising what they preach.

It''s even more tragic that Jerusalem which is called the "Holy City" has been the site off so much bloodshed for over a thousand years now, this does cause me to wonder just what exactly is taught by the preacher''s of peace & forgiveness.

On a plus side though I thought that the posts on this article were a lot more thoughtful than the usual left/right wing abuse!

[stopsocialis]

When I die I swear I am going to find that frigging Jesus and yank his sorry a_ss right out of Heaven and toss him right in the middle of that friggin hellhole Holy Land and say ''''Enjoy It!"
posted by bailmeout1

Sorry mr. satan worshipper, you won''t find Jesus in the place you''re going with your blasphemous remarks.

[stopsocialis]

Not just two, but nations of idiots fighting a battle over whose imaginary friend is more "real". And we have put ourselves smack in the middle of this stupidity.
Posted by curse914 at 11:47 PM : Oct 25, 2008

Only uneducated fools who believe in propaganda, not truth, would call Jesus Christ "imaginary".

[robert7562]

God Bless Everyone, NO Exceptions

[stopsocialis]

Moses, Christ, Mohammed... only one got what they all deserved.
Posted by Nancy_Naive at 08:13 AM : Oct 26, 2008

Moses and Christ are in heaven. Muhammed is in that other place.


Christ is risen, He is alive. Muhammed''s body has been rotting for about 1,400 years now and counting

Nuff said

[stopsocialis]

Typical religion nuts. Worshiping idols and buildings and forgetting God.
Posted by FloydZeppt at 08:03 AM : Oct 26, 2008

Wow you just described the Vatican and also fundamentalist Islam when they get on their knees 5 times a day and face "Mecca" and worship the pagan crescent moon god "allah".

[patriotic9]

We need to conduct a new scientific study to figure out whether very religious people become psychotics or psychotic people become very religious!

[bailmeout1]

StopSocialis-

haha So if I do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I automatically believe in Satan? Well before we get into your "faith" I will give you a few facts.

1. You can believe in your Bible if you want. The fact is it is only the Word of God, because it says it is the Word of God.
2. Not only has it been rewritten a million times, but men themselves decided which Books would go in. In addition to that, there have been additional findings within the Dead Sea Scrolls that carry completely different wording than your book.
3. You can believe in your Book, or you can accept it from the Jews themselves. They were right there, they lived there, they had plenty of opportunities to see these "miracles". Yet they believe that Jesus was a man.
4. You are Gods second choice. his first choice was stupid pea sized brained dinosours that lived here for 60 million years.
5. If your God is immortal, he would have no need for food. Why did he make it so that every living thing actually EATS other living things?
6. Why did Jesus never mention to anyone that the world was round and not flat? That knowledge came 1492 years later.
7. Judging from the nutcases that live in that region, on all sides - why would anyone believe that their Religion was real and not a form of control?
8. If that is the Holy Land, why is it the piece of chit property of the universe?
9. Ever wonder why Jesus has never come back for you?

[bailmeout1]

10. Plus I did not get struck by lightning for that post.

I had to give him some time in case he was busy.

[patriotic9]

Sins committed by Adam and Eve, sinners are those new born children born in sins who can not even differentiate between what is a sin and what is not a sin, and the price is paid by a third party free of sins named Jesus.
Those who believe in jesus as son of god and god in human flesh (I never understood how is it possible that god came out of a woman''s private part) are god-neglected whereas those who oppose jesus, insult him, accuse his mother of fornication and accuse jesus of being illegitimate son of his mother, are god-chosen.
Concentration camps in Germany and Israel founded in Palestine.
Innocent people killed in Europe by Nazis and price paid by those Palestinians who can''t even speak the language spoken by Hitler.
OSAMA BEEN FORGOTTEN was in TORA BORA and PSYCHOTIC CHRISTIAN Bush attacked Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11.

Based on the above mentioned reasons, I came to following conclusion;

"CHRISTIANITY is PSYCHOSIS and CHRISTIANS are PSYCHOTICS"

If somebody disagrees with what I said, please come up with valid and sound reasons to prove me wrong. If you do that, I would acknowladge my mistake and change my point of view!

[stopsocialis]

StopSocialis-

haha So if I do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I automatically believe in Satan? Well before we get into your "faith" I will give you a few facts.
posted by bailmeout1


-You''re either for Christ or against Him, and by the blatantly obvious wording of your post, you''re against Him.

[grumpas]

It''s unbelievable what some people will fight over??????

[bailmeout1]

-You''''re either for Christ or against Him, and by the blatantly obvious wording of your post, you''''re against Him.
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Posted by StopSocialis at 09:34 AM : Oct 26, 2008

"blatantly obvious" Ok, so we just established an end to your abilities on faith. Cant you just accet that my words actually mean something completely different? Maybe it is a message, you know like a "sign". How can you be sure? Maybe I am testing you... Have some Faith man!

[Scooter68]

bailmeout1 - Interesting that you would, in your attempt to dicredit the Bible, actually mention so much of what makes the Bibles words so much more reliable. It''s integrity remains quite secure today even though man has copied and recopied so much of it by hand. The various historical events which it describes have been repeately confirmed by non-religious sources today.
It''s various books written by so many authors speak the same and and, despite your claim, the words of different copies are virtually identical.
Yes, Jesus was a man, and he lived just as men live, by his choice, the Jewish leader rejected him not the Jewish people as a whole. It was from the Jewish people themselves that the first Christians were brought forth.
It''s a shame that you have twisted yourself in such knots in your efforts to deny Christianity, you sound so bitter and unhappy.
And I don''t have to wait for Jesus to come back for ''me.''

[bailmeout1]

Dude, If I suppose for a moment that your God and your Heaven existed, there could only be one single reason for those spiritual beings to create living beings of flesh and blood. It would be to experiance LIFE! Life, with all of its emotions. All of its pains. To be able to taste, and to touch. To become a single soul apart from the whole and experiance love. To feel fear and pain that has the ability to become unimaginable. To feel joy, happiness and love to that same degree. These are all of the things that you will no longer have once you reach Heaven. I believe you will miss them. If Jesus is God, or whomever God is - I am sure it is the gravest sin to limit peoples freedoms. And yet in that region, The Holy Land.... that is all they do, and that is all they have ever done. Even beyond murder that is the worst, for when you die, you merely go back from where you came.

[ritad7]

Why are religious people so crazy? Two Christians fighting over a supposedly holy relic. Do these religious nutjobs ever stop to consider what Christ would make of their hate and stupidity. If Jesus came back today he would not be a Christian, that much is certain.

[bailmeout1]

I just do not appreciate that someones makes a statement as to what they believe in, and you are a slam-dunk piece of chit sinner if you do not beieve what they believe. Why are there 99 million branches of Christianity if all of this is so clear cut? Why do Christians pick and choose what in THE BOOK they will follow? Not one follows it all, except the freakazoids. Why was is OK to tie women up to a tree and burn them alive as they were Witches? No one jumped in to help those women? Do you realize how much fire hurts man? Frig you are your Jesus.

[displeased]

The Bible also declares that the earth is spherical in shape.
Posted by StopSocialis

Doesn''t the bible indicate the earth is the center of the universe?

[bailmeout1]

The Bible also declares that the earth is spherical in shape.
Posted by StopSocialis

If your Bilble says that, it was rewritten after 1492.

[bailmeout1]

The Bible also declares that the earth is spherical in shape.
Posted by StopSocialis

That is so much total BS. There was no one more wacko on Christianity than Christopher Columbus and he thought it was flat.

[impeach__w]

They say that there is only enough religion in the world to make men hate one another but not enough to make them love.
-Unknown

[bailmeout1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Says here that the earliest writings even close to being a Bible were in the year 331 and that the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516. So I will give you all the way to the year 331. That is 331 years of telling and re-telling the story, prior to even printing one up. Or did the Christians also have a printing press to go with their knowledge of the universe? You believe that all of the nutz during the Crusades and during the Inquesition didnt do a little "bending" as they rewrote or translated the book?

[displeased]

Why are religious people so crazy?
Posted by RitaD7

People become so passionate with their personal beliefs they eventually become delusional. I can''t remember where I read this...but if one person is delusional, we call it insanity. If a group of people is delusional, we call it religion.

[missingamerica]

that Earth was flat and anybody who would get close to the broken end would fall off the cliff into sure death! LOL!

Posted by trishab58 at 10:31 AM : Oct 26, 2008

The existance of fundamentalists religion is proof enough that the world is round.

Were it flat, at some time in centuries past someone would have said "God is that way!", and they all would have followed the prophet of the moment and fallen off the edge like lemmings.

[bailmeout1]

I''ll tell ya, I am a die-hard Republican in the sense that I am very pro ''small government'' but this "The Bible is the Word of God, because it says it is the Word of God" stuff of of these JesusFreaks is too much for me. I keep hoping they will grow some b_alls and form their own party. I can easily see how the left gets so ticked off. I am out, frig it!

Dems? Got room for one more? Go Obama! Oh man, I gotta sign up, wheres Acorn when you need them?

[bailmeout1]

Plus we are supposed to be seperation of Church and State. Why is our tax money going over there if they are going to be all freaking about it?

[bailmeout1]

Plus since it is Jihad, thats a Holy War. Why is our tax money going to that? (see Dems, I can help out!)

[Scooter68]

"Not one follows it all, except the freakazoids." Bailmeout - You got it pretty close to right! That''s whats so great about it all. WE cannot get it all together, we are H u m a n, we have flaws and we need help. Any Christian that tells you otherwise is more than a little confused. Christians are not that much different than anyone else, except that we put our trust in God to pull us through, we know we can''t do it on our own, and as arrogant as you may think we are, we know that we are very imperfect and need help.
A Church isn''t for perfect people doing everything perfectly, it'' for those hurting from their mistakes and others mistakes who are seeking help to make it through this world. We aren''t to be a bunch of sad faced people, we are joyous about the future and it gives us strength when things here don''t go as we want.

Sorry you are missing all the joy a life with God will give one. It''s a pretty cool thing to know that we have someone watching out for us, no matter what the world dishes out to us in terms of illness, disaster or pain, in the end it won''t matter for us as Christians, it''s comparatively, a very fleeting thing, this life. Until you get that, you are missing the whole purpose of living life as a Christian, it''s not about reaching ''nirvana'' here in this life, it''s about the future.

[bailmeout1]

Sorry you are missing all the joy a life with God will give one. It''''s a pretty cool thing to know that we have someone watching out for us, no matter what the world dishes out to us in terms of illness, disaster or pain, in the end it won''''t matter for us as Christians, it''''s comparatively, a very fleeting thing, this life. Until you get that, you are missing the whole purpose of living life as a Christian, it''''s not about reaching ''''nirvana'''' here in this life, it''''s about the future.
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Posted by gscotth at 10:58 AM : Oct 26, 2008

Well maybe you can help me out then. Maybe I can be fixed. I will help you pinpoint the problem. "I believe in God" - ok so far. "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God" - I will go along. "I believe that the Bible is the Wod of God" - Ok, I haven''t left yet. "And this is what that Bible tells you to do" - It''s right there, that is it.

Dude, Don''t assume that because I do not believe that Jesus was anything other than a mortal man, and the Bible is nothing more than a book, that I am unhappy or missing anything in life. In fact it is I that has voiced the importance of Human freedoms. Don''t assume that I have no feelings on a Creator or of self, or soul. Those thoughts pertain to me and stay within me. Hey, maybe you can learn from me. haha

[bailmeout1]

Hey, now that I am with the Dems, I can watch the Obama-Girl on you tube not on mute! Go Obama!

[junglejimy12]

Obama and his radicals plan to diminish Israel''s influence on our policies.Israel''s days are numbered and Jerusalem will be carved up and parcelled out to the Palestinians if Obama gets into office. The writing is on the wall. He will bring the curse of God on us to finish off what Bush has already destroyed.Our once fine nation has begun its decline.

[displeased]

Our once fine nation has begun its decline.
Posted by junglejimy12

Our decline began 8 years ago.

[piercetheval]

...too bad the ''True Templars'' and the "Hospitallers'' aren''t still in control.
This bickering among so-called ''Christian Churches'' has got to end soon.

[oleander8]

When is organized religion going to get over itself!!

[egresor]

"Not one follows it all, except the freakazoids." Bailmeout - You got it pretty close to right! That''''s whats so great about it all. WE cannot get it all together, we are H u m a n, we have flaws and we need help. Any Christian that tells you otherwise is more than a little confused. Christians are not that much different than anyone else, except that we put our trust in God to pull us through, we know we can''''t do it on our own, and as arrogant as you may think we are, we know that we are very imperfect and need help.
A Church isn''''t for perfect people doing everything perfectly, it'''' for those hurting from their mistakes and others mistakes who are seeking help to make it through this world.
Posted by gscotth
===
this illustrates the understanding the church world has. that noone is perfect. that we all have sin?
apostle paul told timothy to "mark the perfect man".

if there are no perfect people? why did he instruct timothy to mark him? ...and in addition the bible gives a commandement "be ye perfect". that''s a commandment!

so if you are not perfect from sin you are failing god''s commandments and have your place with the imperfect church world.

not running down people''s faiths but god isn''t stupid.

they know THEY aren''t perfect and make that an excuse for failure to follow the commandment "be ye perfect".
a C-O-M-M-A-N-D-M-E-N-T (same as the 10)

and columbus DID believe the world was round. flat was for the ignorant masses. columbus not one of them.

[impeach__w]

After the final battle between muslims and Jews? Why are Chritians fighting each other? Why is anyone?

They say that there is only enough religion in the world to make men hate one another but not enough to make them love.
-Unknown

[sepa2]

Obama and his radicals plan to diminish Israel''''s influence on our policies.Israel''''s days are numbered and Jerusalem will be carved up and parcelled out to the Palestinians if Obama gets into office. The writing is on the wall. He will bring the curse of God on us to finish off what Bush has already destroyed.Our once fine nation has begun its decline.


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Posted by junglejimy12 at 11:33 AM : Oct 26, 2008
Isreal lobby''s undue influence has lot to do with our current dire situation

[egresor]

i''ll give this as an example

a preacher told me that about 6 months after getting saved he was working in a basement and stood up and banged his head really hard...gave out a big G*D D*MN

what was the lesson god was trying to teach him?

that he wasn''t where he thought he was. that he was in the basement...not upstairs in the living room.

most of the time church people aren''t where they think they are, but how many climb those stairs?
hmmm?
and where are the stairs?
where is jacob''s ladder?

[bailmeout1]

and columbus DID believe the world was round. flat was for the ignorant masses. columbus not one of them.
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Posted by egresor at 12:14 PM : Oct 26, 2008

He believed it yes. But that was not from the Bible, if it was he would "Know" it.

[egresor]

most of the time church people aren''''t where they think they are, but how many climb those stairs?
hmmm?
and where are the stairs?
where is jacob''''s ladder?

Posted by egresor

ahhh....but there''s a big black thing standing at the foot of our beds. that same big black thing jacob wrestled.