For Average Joes, Mixed Feelings On Wealth

Debate Over "Spread The Wealth Around" Comment Reveals Complicated (And Contradictory) Feelings

(AP) 
The tension between those ideas runs through American politics in ways that don't always seem logical. Even many wealthy people support higher taxes on the rich. In a country that believes in itself as a place where anybody who works hard enough can make it, though, there's a certain wariness of taxes that might discourage hard work.

McCain's criticism of Obama's tax plan is "trying to go for this idea that, in the U.S., is much more popular than in other countries ... that you get ahead through your own efforts," said Bryan Caplan, author of "The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies," and an economics professor at George Mason University. "I think he's trying to tap into what is a distinctly American view."

That view is far from universal, but it does go way back. In fact, the debate over distribution of wealth has been going on since the U.S. was a brand new nation.

After years of being ruled by British royalty, the country's first political leaders argued that the U.S. must avoid creating its own aristocracy that would allow the wealthy to exert unfair power. But the party that touted itself as the true champions of economic equality was the Democratic-Republicans, led by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

"Of course, in actuality, many followers of Jefferson were also slaveholders and the greatest disparities in wealth concentration were right in front of their noses," said Robert E. Wright, who teaches economic and financial history at New York University's Stern School of Business.

Americans didn't face the first tax on personal income until 1861, when a Union government desperate for cash to fight the Civil War decided it had little choice. The tax was sold as a way of making sure the rich, most of whom who were not marching off to war, were bearing their fair share of responsibility, Wright said.

That tax - a flat assessment - survived until 1895, when it was declared unconstitutional.

The country's first experiments with income taxes were promoted as necessities, rather than as a way to shift wealth to where it was needed. Over time, economists came to embrace the concept of a progressive tax - one that levies higher rates in proportion to income - as a means of not just paying for government, but ensuring fairness.

And when the income tax was brought back with the passage of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, the tax that was enacted was progressive. Rates began at 1 percent and rose to 7 percent for taxpayers with income above $500,000. Less than 1 percent of the population paid income tax at the time.

A 2003 survey of U.S. economists found most endorse policies resulting in redistribution of wealth. The strongest support came from economists who identified themselves as Democrats, said Daniel B. Klein, a co-author of the survey. But self-identified Republican economists were near neutral, offering only mild opposition to the concept.

Misgivings about wealth are pretty universal. For most of economic history, people viewed the total amount of wealth in society as finite and those with less viewed those with more as having gotten it by unfair means.

That view has shifted in modern economies, as people have embraced the idea that policies that lead to growth can improve all fortunes. Still, in much of the world, proposals to share wealth more fairly by means of higher taxes on the wealthy would win wide support.

But the U.S. is a young nation with a highly developed economy, giving rise to a uniquely American strain of thought. Those with less look at those with more and try to figure out how to catch up.

"Here we call it 'keeping up with the Joneses,"' Wright said.

Americans do strongly favor higher taxes on those with more, and back efforts to help those with less.

When Americans were polled by Gallup in April, 68 percent said they believe money and wealth should be distributed more fairly. In a survey in July, 49 percent said the U.S. has become a nation of haves and have-nots, up from 37 percent who felt the same way four years ago.

But a majority of Americans also say the government is doing too much and should instead be leaving more to individuals and businesses. And when asked how government should fix the economy, people overwhelmingly said they favor policy to improve overall economic conditions and the jobs situation, rather than steps to redistribute income.

In retrospect, though, the question forced people to make a choice that now seems obvious, Gallup's Newport said. Who wouldn't favor policies to improve the total economy?

To him, the poll showing more than half of people favor "heavy" taxes on the rich is more revealing, given the strong wording of the question.

But even with such support, politicians have learned to walk a careful line in explaining the need for higher taxes.

"It's not like, 'Look, we're raising your taxes to (more evenly) distribute," income, Caplan says. "We're doing it because we need to raise money."

[samthetvcat]

---"Obama is a little like God"---
Posted by SmartVote8

Yeah, he often masks his deception by speaking out against a practice at the very time he''s engaging in that same practice by appealing to peoples'' vanity.

Politicians all perpetuate stereotypes to get people to buy into the idea that people need what it is they''re selling . . . nobody thinks Barack supporters who think he''s some sort of different kind of politician are savvy when they call Joe the Plumber stupid . . .

[hootal2]

That has always been how the Rebublicans have convinced the middle and lower middle class to vote for them. By perpetuating the self-deluting fantasy that they too will one day be that rich person the Republicans are always benefiting. It is sad how they get the lower middle and middle class to screw themselves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by mkcscbs at 08:49 PM : Oct 26, 2008
+ report abuse
the world needs ditch-diggers too! work hard and get ahead. simple concept you demoturds need to grasp.

[mkcscbs]

That has always been how the Rebublicans have convinced the middle and lower middle class to vote for them. By perpetuating the self-deluting fantasy that they too will one day be that rich person the Republicans are always benefiting. It is sad how they get the lower middle and middle class to screw themselves.

[smartvote8]

Joe the Plumber only provided a small ***** in the tough armour that Obama hides behind. Obama is a little like God -- people don''t read the bible and check the facts, they just make up and believe whatever they choose to believe he is.
Vote McCain/Palin!

[samthetvcat]

---"All the charisma in the world won''t save Obama when his policies fail"---
Posted by jimiwhitten

You know what we seem to love to do in politics is symbolically rail ''against the British'' (any institutional concept that''s come to be too powerful). This year it''s all about the CEO''s and big business. In 4 or 8 years it might very well be the cultural elites in politics - celebrities, performers/entertainers, the punditry, academia - all the people saw all those same qualities in Barack and really went out there to champion him and his idea that one can intellectualize any human experience through study - power plays, business savvy, handling a crisis, etc.

Barack beating Billary seemed to be all about repudiating legacy candidates for President. Maybe the next trend to be repudiated''ll be the ivy leaguers - there hasn''t been a non-ivy leaguer since Reagan, is that right?

[misha128-2009]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:09 PM

the Freddie and Fannie central cause of the financial meltdown was refuted by Greenspan and two other administration officials. In their refutation Greenspan refuted the validity of deregulation and called for significant and appropriate regulation noting that

Business does not act in it''s own best interest.

Meaning management is not acting in the interests of either the stockholders or the employees.

[jimiwhitten]

I am very well read up on the FORRESTAL and the Keating five, how well read up are you on Marxism and socialism, on what eventually happens when politicians get caught in a lie (like Nixon and Clinton). All the charisma in the world won''t save Obama when his policies fail and he is still telling stories (I plan to stick to public money - Hell, McCain has done a great job considering that he is outspent 8 to 1).

[misha128-2009]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:22 PM

Ever hear of preventing identity theft?

[ciabello]

You know people cheer and say he only wants to tax the rich. But they don''t realize if the 250,000.00 ceiling doesn''t adjust with inflation it will be just like the AMT Tax that all married people pay that make over 100K pay each year. The politicians are having a hard time getting rid of it. They could adjust the AMT with inflation but they aren''t going to do that.

Also if you have insurance policies, or inheritance and it is a one time payment of over $20,000.00 you will be hit with at 38% capitals gains tax if you have another source of income. Not only will you pay payroll taxes you will pay capital gains. If you put the money in the bank and it earns interest you will have to pay taxes on it as well.

So his "tax the rich" will really tax anyone that has parents that will leave them with an estate even if it is just a modest one or has an insurance policy.

[samthetvcat]

PS Applied to a different scenario, I think having a narrow rather than full view of greed both across the board good and bad is going to impede Barack''s ability to grow the economy, no matter how much he tries to ''intellectualize'' the concept of economic growth. If he believes that spreading the wealth is ''fair'', he''s never going to be able to accurately gauge when is the right situation for good greed to flourish imo

[samthetvcat]

pt 1

---"Reveals Complicated (And Contradictory) Feelings"---

Now that I think about it, maybe it''s not that peoples feelings are ''complicated'', but that there''s good greed and bad greed and the interpreters of data don''t necessarily see greed as ever good the way most sometimes people do.

Bad greed is the kind that makes people feel they feel like they have money owing to them from people not because they''ve contributed a valuable service to society but because they feel deserving. Everybody sees that Wall Street CEO''s largely made their money through deregulation, deception, market manipulation and then made off like bandits while others'' investments were destroyed and still don''t take responsibility for their actions. But what about Unions that have demanded such high salaries in excess of what workers truly deserve that they''ve destroyed entire industries and still don''t allow the businesses to bargain them down to make the industry viable? Do high-school graduate line-workers really deserve to make like $65,000 when it makes cars $30,000 here when they''re only apparently about $3,000 in China? (The numbers may not be accurate)

Good greed is the kind Warren Buffett has urged - don''t feel fearful, feel greedy. Good greed is the kind Joe the Plumber buys into - the kind that motivates him to dream of being more than just an employee.

[samthetvcat]

pt 2

Half of becoming a business owner is just the mindset of liking money and not associating it with greed (bad greed). The other half is having the self-discipline and knowledge to turn a profit in a competitive environment.

I''ve seen people trash Joe for claiming that he''s going to one day be in that $250k bracket, but it''s totally doable given that he''s got the right mindset - once he gets certified, if somebody helps him and his employer craft a business plan of how his employer can one day look forward to retirement knowing he''s got somebody that''s going to be able to buy him out when the time comes because he''s saved enough money to get a loan for the rest, the employer''ll likely want to show Joe the other aspects of the plumbing business that he hasn''t already been exposed to - cultivating clientele, bargaining for retainer services, sending out invoices and demanding payment, making payroll, etc . . .

This is totally doable for Joe - I think if he were to have had the mindset limited solely to the idea of greed being something bad and only seen way up above he wouldn''t be aspiring to more than he already is (?)

[homespunlady]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:17 PM : Oct 26, 2008

What''s the matter?
Are you ticked off that Buffet Didn''t leave his fortune to YOU rather than arranging to have nearly ALL of it go to CHARITY?

Or are you THAT afraid that a kid who was mostly RAISED by his Middle Class KANSAN Grandparents and lost his MOM to cancer MIGHT just become President rather than a Plantation owner''s SPOILED BRAT born with a SILVER SPOON in his mouth and an overwhelming LACK of REAL ethics?

Why don''t you read up on the USS Forrestal and KEATING 5?

[homespunlady]

Posted by NEEDERBAUR at 07:12 PM : Oct 26, 2008

The ONLY thing I see "quashing" MY rights is the NEOCONS with their double-speak "Patriot Act", warrentless wiretaps,
demands to know what you check out of the Public Library,
The AT&T room in California that "monitors all the calls in the US,
extraordinary rendition,
allowing TORTURE (even on children),
"you''re on your own but we''re CONFISCATING your guns during Katrina,
trying to force federal attorneys to "target" political opponents,
moving native Americans onto TOXIC WASTE DUMPS,
and on and on...

[jimiwhitten]

IF I were really trustworthy and wanted to get people to vote for me, then when they asked I would produce all the documents they wanted, inclding:
1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- ''Not available''
4. Harvard College records -- Not released
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Illinois State Senate schedule -- Not available
8. Your Illinois State Senate records -- Not available
9. Law practice client list -- Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released
12. Record of your baptism -- Not available
Why won''t your favorite socialist release thes documents - something to hide?

[jimiwhitten]

Buffet is in it for BUFFET! You watch closely and see which way your tax level goes if Obama wins. He is a socialist who WILL raise your taxes, and he nor McCain can do a lot about socializing health care without a HUGE windfall - guess where they plan to get it?

[jimiwhitten]

Actually the Dems brought about the current economic mess. They FORCED banks to make loans to people who couldn''t pay them back in area nobody else wanted to live in the name of equality - Bill Clinton signed that law, not W.

[windmaster12]

Any One who can still Vote RepugnantCon
After 8 Years of Dumbya Bush''s Ineptitude
Is seriously in need of Therapy.

Bush was left a surplus by Clinton--
Proceeded to engage us in an unnecessary war
of Choice, For shady corporate enrichment--
Gave tax breaks and incentives
To Big Oil, and The GOP Defense Conglomerates!!

Deregulated Wall Street--
Causing unbridled Corporate Thievery--
Then Pulled a Commie Chavez Move by
Socializing the banks, and bailing out the Wall Street Incompetent''s who brought them to bankruptcy!!!

Left us with Two very expensive ongoing wars--
Created The Greatest deficit in the Nation''''s history
Outsourced Millions of US jobs-
Lost our respect throughout the world,
Through Imperialist nation building!!

And still these right wing Bozo''s believe
Bush Mcsame and The GOP did a good job--

The definition of insanity is
To do the same thing over and over
Expecting a different result

Thus the only conclusion is--
The GOP rule over a bunch of Dumba$$ Moron''s
Who will vote for the same Bozo''''s who
Left the Country in tatters!!
Time, after time, without accountability!!!

Red State Fever -- Terminal condition---
Resulting in Brain Death!!!

[sbelknap01]

Something BBinFla said a minute ago bears another look. Suppose I do open my own small business and earn $300,000. How much ''extra'' tax will I pay? Not a penny. Because, I assure you, I am a very typical American and I will hire some less fortunate Joe for $50,000 a year to help me out. Which, of course, reduces my income to the magic quarter mill and wah-la, no income tax increase. I call it the trickle UP theory of economics. So does Barack Obama and so does Warren Buffett.

[sbelknap01]

Most people have no idea how much money they paid in federal income tax last year. Do you? How much does a married couple with 2 little ones have to earn before they pay tax? Don''t know? You''re not alone. How much did you earn last year? Gross, now, annually, not how much you cleared last week. If you don''t know these very basic answers, may I suggest that you quit debating taxes and vote for someone with a decent education and a clear ability to gather round him the greatest minds on economy (Warren Buffett!) and vote for him? Oh, and look at your own tax return and figure out how much tax you will pay on your health benefits if Sen. McCain prevails. And how much your state tax will have to increase to pay for the expenses that he will toss back to the state level to make his federal situation better. What''s your state tax rate, by the way? Give up fussin'' over it, you don''t understand your own tax return well enough to debate it - pick your candidate on something else: pick him based on who he trusts- and who trusts him. Obama/Biden.