For Average Joes, Mixed Feelings On Wealth

Debate Over "Spread The Wealth Around" Comment Reveals Complicated (And Contradictory) Feelings

(AP)  The war of words waged by John McCain and Barack Obama for the votes of plumbers and other average Joes is a reminder of the nation's long-standing doubts about concentrated wealth - and its qualms about doing something about it.

Americans have voiced concerns about putting too much wealth in to too few hands since the country was founded, but the public's views also come with contradictions.

Now it's clearer than ever - thanks to Obama's much scrutinized talk about taxes with a certain Ohio voter and McCain's dogged criticism - that these mixed feelings about income inequality are a long way from being resolved.

"I think that when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody," Obama told the man - maybe you've heard of him - Joe the Plumber.

The remark may have sounded pretty innocuous. But McCain has lambasted his rival's words as sounding "a lot like socialism," and turned the criticism into a central theme of his campaign's final round. Obama's remarks, McCain says, are emblematic of a tax plan to confiscate wealth and give it to the poor that would make the IRS "into a giant welfare agency."

The comments of both presidential candidates touch nerves in American politics - longtime concern about too much concentration of wealth, but also about the role of government and the individual. More than two centuries after Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson and other early leaders warned about the hazards of too much in the hands of too few, Americans have developed complex views on the intertwining issues.

A substantial majority of Americans say the rich don't pay their fair share of taxes, opinion polls show. A growing number say the U.S. is becoming a nation of haves and have-nots.

The public's concerns reflect a shifting dynamic in recent years, as an increasing share of the wealth has gone to people at the top of the income scale. The top tenth of U.S. households now earn an average of 11.2 times what those in the bottom tenth make, according to the Census Bureau. That's up from a ratio of 8.7 three decades ago. The wealthiest fifth of U.S. households now take in 50 percent of all income, up from 44 percent in 1977. The differences are even more pronounced in analyses of incomes for the top 1 percent of households.

"The income gap between the rich and the rest of the U.S. population has become so wide, and is growing so fast, that it might eventually threaten the stability of democratic capitalism itself," then-Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said in 2005.

But Americans are divided on whether government should be heavily taxing the rich in order to benefit those with less.

"It's a complicated area to try to understand American attitudes," said Frank Newport, editor-in-chief of the Gallup Poll. "It's kind of like, in some instances, conflicting medical research ... There's no one answer."

A majority of Americans - 51 percent in a poll by Gallup this past April - said they support "heavy taxes" on the rich to redistribute wealth. That is significantly higher than when the same question was asked in 1939, at the tail end of the Great Depression, when 35 percent agreed.

But people's support for higher taxes on the wealthy are tempered by their own aspirations.

"Most Americans hope to some day be wealthy and as a result, the idea of kind of redistributing income is not as popular as (government policies resulting in) making a bigger pie so everybody does better off," said Dennis Jacobe, chief economist for Gallup.

[samthetvcat]

---"Obama is a little like God"---
Posted by SmartVote8

Yeah, he often masks his deception by speaking out against a practice at the very time he''s engaging in that same practice by appealing to peoples'' vanity.

Politicians all perpetuate stereotypes to get people to buy into the idea that people need what it is they''re selling . . . nobody thinks Barack supporters who think he''s some sort of different kind of politician are savvy when they call Joe the Plumber stupid . . .

[hootal2]

That has always been how the Rebublicans have convinced the middle and lower middle class to vote for them. By perpetuating the self-deluting fantasy that they too will one day be that rich person the Republicans are always benefiting. It is sad how they get the lower middle and middle class to screw themselves.


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Posted by mkcscbs at 08:49 PM : Oct 26, 2008
+ report abuse
the world needs ditch-diggers too! work hard and get ahead. simple concept you demoturds need to grasp.

[mkcscbs]

That has always been how the Rebublicans have convinced the middle and lower middle class to vote for them. By perpetuating the self-deluting fantasy that they too will one day be that rich person the Republicans are always benefiting. It is sad how they get the lower middle and middle class to screw themselves.

[smartvote8]

Joe the Plumber only provided a small ***** in the tough armour that Obama hides behind. Obama is a little like God -- people don''t read the bible and check the facts, they just make up and believe whatever they choose to believe he is.
Vote McCain/Palin!

[samthetvcat]

---"All the charisma in the world won''t save Obama when his policies fail"---
Posted by jimiwhitten

You know what we seem to love to do in politics is symbolically rail ''against the British'' (any institutional concept that''s come to be too powerful). This year it''s all about the CEO''s and big business. In 4 or 8 years it might very well be the cultural elites in politics - celebrities, performers/entertainers, the punditry, academia - all the people saw all those same qualities in Barack and really went out there to champion him and his idea that one can intellectualize any human experience through study - power plays, business savvy, handling a crisis, etc.

Barack beating Billary seemed to be all about repudiating legacy candidates for President. Maybe the next trend to be repudiated''ll be the ivy leaguers - there hasn''t been a non-ivy leaguer since Reagan, is that right?

[misha128-2009]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:09 PM

the Freddie and Fannie central cause of the financial meltdown was refuted by Greenspan and two other administration officials. In their refutation Greenspan refuted the validity of deregulation and called for significant and appropriate regulation noting that

Business does not act in it''s own best interest.

Meaning management is not acting in the interests of either the stockholders or the employees.

[jimiwhitten]

I am very well read up on the FORRESTAL and the Keating five, how well read up are you on Marxism and socialism, on what eventually happens when politicians get caught in a lie (like Nixon and Clinton). All the charisma in the world won''t save Obama when his policies fail and he is still telling stories (I plan to stick to public money - Hell, McCain has done a great job considering that he is outspent 8 to 1).

[misha128-2009]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:22 PM

Ever hear of preventing identity theft?

[ciabello]

You know people cheer and say he only wants to tax the rich. But they don''t realize if the 250,000.00 ceiling doesn''t adjust with inflation it will be just like the AMT Tax that all married people pay that make over 100K pay each year. The politicians are having a hard time getting rid of it. They could adjust the AMT with inflation but they aren''t going to do that.

Also if you have insurance policies, or inheritance and it is a one time payment of over $20,000.00 you will be hit with at 38% capitals gains tax if you have another source of income. Not only will you pay payroll taxes you will pay capital gains. If you put the money in the bank and it earns interest you will have to pay taxes on it as well.

So his "tax the rich" will really tax anyone that has parents that will leave them with an estate even if it is just a modest one or has an insurance policy.

[samthetvcat]

PS Applied to a different scenario, I think having a narrow rather than full view of greed both across the board good and bad is going to impede Barack''s ability to grow the economy, no matter how much he tries to ''intellectualize'' the concept of economic growth. If he believes that spreading the wealth is ''fair'', he''s never going to be able to accurately gauge when is the right situation for good greed to flourish imo

[samthetvcat]

pt 1

---"Reveals Complicated (And Contradictory) Feelings"---

Now that I think about it, maybe it''s not that peoples feelings are ''complicated'', but that there''s good greed and bad greed and the interpreters of data don''t necessarily see greed as ever good the way most sometimes people do.

Bad greed is the kind that makes people feel they feel like they have money owing to them from people not because they''ve contributed a valuable service to society but because they feel deserving. Everybody sees that Wall Street CEO''s largely made their money through deregulation, deception, market manipulation and then made off like bandits while others'' investments were destroyed and still don''t take responsibility for their actions. But what about Unions that have demanded such high salaries in excess of what workers truly deserve that they''ve destroyed entire industries and still don''t allow the businesses to bargain them down to make the industry viable? Do high-school graduate line-workers really deserve to make like $65,000 when it makes cars $30,000 here when they''re only apparently about $3,000 in China? (The numbers may not be accurate)

Good greed is the kind Warren Buffett has urged - don''t feel fearful, feel greedy. Good greed is the kind Joe the Plumber buys into - the kind that motivates him to dream of being more than just an employee.

[samthetvcat]

pt 2

Half of becoming a business owner is just the mindset of liking money and not associating it with greed (bad greed). The other half is having the self-discipline and knowledge to turn a profit in a competitive environment.

I''ve seen people trash Joe for claiming that he''s going to one day be in that $250k bracket, but it''s totally doable given that he''s got the right mindset - once he gets certified, if somebody helps him and his employer craft a business plan of how his employer can one day look forward to retirement knowing he''s got somebody that''s going to be able to buy him out when the time comes because he''s saved enough money to get a loan for the rest, the employer''ll likely want to show Joe the other aspects of the plumbing business that he hasn''t already been exposed to - cultivating clientele, bargaining for retainer services, sending out invoices and demanding payment, making payroll, etc . . .

This is totally doable for Joe - I think if he were to have had the mindset limited solely to the idea of greed being something bad and only seen way up above he wouldn''t be aspiring to more than he already is (?)

[homespunlady]

Posted by jimiwhitten at 07:17 PM : Oct 26, 2008

What''s the matter?
Are you ticked off that Buffet Didn''t leave his fortune to YOU rather than arranging to have nearly ALL of it go to CHARITY?

Or are you THAT afraid that a kid who was mostly RAISED by his Middle Class KANSAN Grandparents and lost his MOM to cancer MIGHT just become President rather than a Plantation owner''s SPOILED BRAT born with a SILVER SPOON in his mouth and an overwhelming LACK of REAL ethics?

Why don''t you read up on the USS Forrestal and KEATING 5?

[homespunlady]

Posted by NEEDERBAUR at 07:12 PM : Oct 26, 2008

The ONLY thing I see "quashing" MY rights is the NEOCONS with their double-speak "Patriot Act", warrentless wiretaps,
demands to know what you check out of the Public Library,
The AT&T room in California that "monitors all the calls in the US,
extraordinary rendition,
allowing TORTURE (even on children),
"you''re on your own but we''re CONFISCATING your guns during Katrina,
trying to force federal attorneys to "target" political opponents,
moving native Americans onto TOXIC WASTE DUMPS,
and on and on...

[jimiwhitten]

IF I were really trustworthy and wanted to get people to vote for me, then when they asked I would produce all the documents they wanted, inclding:
1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- ''Not available''
4. Harvard College records -- Not released
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Illinois State Senate schedule -- Not available
8. Your Illinois State Senate records -- Not available
9. Law practice client list -- Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released
12. Record of your baptism -- Not available
Why won''t your favorite socialist release thes documents - something to hide?

[jimiwhitten]

Buffet is in it for BUFFET! You watch closely and see which way your tax level goes if Obama wins. He is a socialist who WILL raise your taxes, and he nor McCain can do a lot about socializing health care without a HUGE windfall - guess where they plan to get it?

[jimiwhitten]

Actually the Dems brought about the current economic mess. They FORCED banks to make loans to people who couldn''t pay them back in area nobody else wanted to live in the name of equality - Bill Clinton signed that law, not W.

[windmaster12]

Any One who can still Vote RepugnantCon
After 8 Years of Dumbya Bush''s Ineptitude
Is seriously in need of Therapy.

Bush was left a surplus by Clinton--
Proceeded to engage us in an unnecessary war
of Choice, For shady corporate enrichment--
Gave tax breaks and incentives
To Big Oil, and The GOP Defense Conglomerates!!

Deregulated Wall Street--
Causing unbridled Corporate Thievery--
Then Pulled a Commie Chavez Move by
Socializing the banks, and bailing out the Wall Street Incompetent''s who brought them to bankruptcy!!!

Left us with Two very expensive ongoing wars--
Created The Greatest deficit in the Nation''''s history
Outsourced Millions of US jobs-
Lost our respect throughout the world,
Through Imperialist nation building!!

And still these right wing Bozo''s believe
Bush Mcsame and The GOP did a good job--

The definition of insanity is
To do the same thing over and over
Expecting a different result

Thus the only conclusion is--
The GOP rule over a bunch of Dumba$$ Moron''s
Who will vote for the same Bozo''''s who
Left the Country in tatters!!
Time, after time, without accountability!!!

Red State Fever -- Terminal condition---
Resulting in Brain Death!!!

[sbelknap01]

Something BBinFla said a minute ago bears another look. Suppose I do open my own small business and earn $300,000. How much ''extra'' tax will I pay? Not a penny. Because, I assure you, I am a very typical American and I will hire some less fortunate Joe for $50,000 a year to help me out. Which, of course, reduces my income to the magic quarter mill and wah-la, no income tax increase. I call it the trickle UP theory of economics. So does Barack Obama and so does Warren Buffett.

[sbelknap01]

Most people have no idea how much money they paid in federal income tax last year. Do you? How much does a married couple with 2 little ones have to earn before they pay tax? Don''t know? You''re not alone. How much did you earn last year? Gross, now, annually, not how much you cleared last week. If you don''t know these very basic answers, may I suggest that you quit debating taxes and vote for someone with a decent education and a clear ability to gather round him the greatest minds on economy (Warren Buffett!) and vote for him? Oh, and look at your own tax return and figure out how much tax you will pay on your health benefits if Sen. McCain prevails. And how much your state tax will have to increase to pay for the expenses that he will toss back to the state level to make his federal situation better. What''s your state tax rate, by the way? Give up fussin'' over it, you don''t understand your own tax return well enough to debate it - pick your candidate on something else: pick him based on who he trusts- and who trusts him. Obama/Biden.