RIVIERA BEACH, Fla., Sept. 18, 2008

Florida Judge Rules Against Fashion Police

Says Local Law Banning Saggy Pants Is Unconstitutional

  • Photo

     (AP Photo)

  • Interactive Crime Beat

    Statistics and specifics on crime in America.

(CBS/AP)  A judge has decided a law banning sagging pants in this town is unconstitutional after a teenager spent a night in jail on accusations he exposed too much of his underwear.

Julius Hart, 17, was charged last week after an officer said he spotted the teenager riding his bicycle with 4 inches to 5 inches of blue-and-black boxer shorts revealed.

Hart's public defender, Carol Bickerstaff, urged a judge Monday to strike down the sagging pants law, telling him: "Your honor, we now have the fashion police."

Circuit Judge Paul Moyle ruled that the law was unconstitutional based on "the limited facts" of the case. Technically, however, the charge hasn't been dropped yet: a new arraignment awaits Hart on Oct. 5.

Voters in Riviera Beach approved the law in March. A first offense for sagging pants carries a $150 fine or community service, and habitual offenders face the possibility of jail time.

Proposals to ban saggy pants are gaining ground in several places around the U.S., and have met with opposition from civil liberties advocates who say they will lead to racial profiling against young African-Americans.

The fashion is believed to have started in prisons, where inmates are not given belts with their baggy uniform pants to prevent hangings and beatings. By the late 1980s, the trend had made it to gangster rap videos, then went on to skateboarders in the suburbs and high school hallways.

Bickerstaff said she wants the city to drop the law - regardless of whether anyone dislikes low-riding pants.

"The first time I saw this particular fashion, I disliked it," she told the judge. "And then I realized I'm getting old."

The issue in Riviera Beach illustrates a larger trend among U.S. cities that have outlawed the fashion trend.

For example, in Flint, Mich., a city with a similar law banning droopy drawers, Police Chief David Dicks said his officers will continue to arrest violators in spite of the Florida ruling. Dicks called the style of dress "disorderly" in an interview with The Detroit Free Press.

And the hubbub isn't isolated to suburban areas either. Last year, in Dallas, Deputy Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway proposed that the city council send a message to young men in his city; Pull your pants up.

"This is not about the government trying to control how you dress," Mr. Caraway told The Dallas Morning News. "It’s to protect the rights of others who don’t want to see someone’s butt."

© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Video and Galleries from U.S.

Add a Comment See all 50 Comments
by minnick8-2009 September 18, 2008 6:05 PM PDT
Proposals to ban saggy pants are gaining ground in several places around the U.S., and have met with opposition from civil liberties advocates who say they will lead to racial profiling against young African-Americans.

Oh for h e l l sakes. Why don''t they just pull their pants up. If they had any idea how ridiculous they look, they would be embarrassed to be seen in public. What are they trying to do? Are they trying to see how long their little p r i c k s will hold the pants up?
Reply to this comment
by downsteamjim September 18, 2008 6:13 PM PDT
Judge Moyle says its unconstitutional but fails to say why. I guess laws against public nudity are also unconstitutional.
Reply to this comment
by magoo2u1 September 18, 2008 6:31 PM PDT
Why don''t people just mind their own business? You aren''t doing me any favors by making it harder for me to spot the idiots out there. Let these folks wear their pants down low, spray their hair pink and stick a fork in their nose. I can spot a moron from 50 yards off that way. When you make them look like anyone else I may mistake you for a moron. Actually , if you think you should be permitted to make fashion a criminal offense with jail time attached, you are a moron.
Reply to this comment
by mikej1363 September 18, 2008 6:44 PM PDT
Grow Up Morons. It''s not nudity to show underwear. If a hottie jumps out of the car in a bikini at am/pm for a soda on the way to the pool bet your old self doesn''t say any thing about that do you. We are talking about America and her freadoms. You know, the thing our men and women are over seas fighting for. I bet more than half of those boys over there wore thier pants that way before they left to boot camp. Now you clowns want to make it a crime. Next it will be hair color.
Reply to this comment
by gladetryst September 18, 2008 7:03 PM PDT
Yes, schools have totalitarian dress codes. So why don''t we get rid of public schools?
Reply to this comment
by lewiston14 September 18, 2008 7:11 PM PDT
So now the world needs a standard uniform? Look at some plumbers they look more like slot machines then teens making fashion statements.
Just move on to something more important.
Reply to this comment
by credibility2 September 18, 2008 7:19 PM PDT
This trashy dress mode, a direct take on the disgusting prevalence of the hip-hop and street gang personas is laughable. It''s not fashion. it merely shows the base level of the ignoramuses who should be locked up until they''re well into their sixties. They''re hideous to look at and I hope all of them lose their droopy drawers as they''re trying to cross a busy street, trip on them and then get squashed by a truck. It would serve them right. And, what a fool and idiot of a judge. Respectable people of sick and tired of having to look at this trash. We have just as much right not to see this trash and more so than these low-life''s parading around this way.
Reply to this comment
by bob5ford September 18, 2008 7:32 PM PDT
If the people who dress like that knew the origin and connotation of it they would not do it! Google it to see! (Hint-it started in prisons)
Reply to this comment
by pat1967-2009 September 18, 2008 7:54 PM PDT
First off: It is not illegal to wear a speedo or bikini which shows way more skin than saggy pants and boxers.

Second: Just because you don''t or wouldn''t wear your pants this way doesn''t mean that we should waste our time and money making it illegal. Cops have much more important things to do, or at least they should.

Third: In spite of what you racist idiots think, this fashion is now mainstream. Who cares where it started. When I was in school it was fashionable to wear scrubs. It didn''t mean I was a nurse or doctor. If my son wears his pants on his hips it just means that he is young and is showing the fashion of the young, not trying to be a thug.

FYI: My mother tells stories of when she was in school in the 50s this same fashion trend was all the rage, although the underwear at the time was white briefs.
Reply to this comment
by hypnotoad72 September 18, 2008 8:17 PM PDT
So what does all this mean? More vermin - whoops, urban people - will start dressing like they just got out of the shower and forgot to buy a belt?

Okay, it''s unconstitutional. And if anybody tells such a nitwit to pull up their pants, they''ll get sued for harassment.

And Bob5ford, I will definitely attempt to look that up as you suggested - if inmate filth came up with that sartorial waste... well, judging by today''s pop music the "style" (rather the lack of) fits right in.

Breastfeeding isn''t a crime. Neither is peeing. But our society cultivated itself to keep those acts (and others) private for valid reasons - usually consideration for OTHERS in the same society.
Reply to this comment
by hypnotoad72 September 18, 2008 8:18 PM PDT
We have just as much right not to see this trash and more so than these low-life''''s parading around this way.

Posted by Credibility2

Oh, but it''s freedom of speech!

See, they get to walk around like gutter trash - we''re allowed the freedom to, at least behind a computer screen, say what degenerate filth they are. Tell them to get dressed to their faces, well that''s harassment and a million dollar lawsuit...
Reply to this comment
by hypnotoad72 September 18, 2008 8:21 PM PDT
So now the world needs a standard uniform? Look at some plumbers they look more like slot machines then teens making fashion statements.
Just move on to something more important.

Posted by lewiston14
------------------------

Children in schools need uniforms. I thought the late-1980s were bad enough with those bloody awful heavy metal t-shirts... FWIW, at least they wore clothing...

Adults can wear what they want, but what''s wrong with a bit of DIGNITY, SELF-RESPECT, RESPECT FOR OTHERS, et cetera?
Reply to this comment
by hypnotoad72 September 18, 2008 8:23 PM PDT
I give up. It IS freedom of speech. We have the right to see the name of the company that made her underwear so we can go buy it too.

:eyesroll:

End Sarcasm.

Or maybe boycott, but then we''d all be naked so that''s not the solution...
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 18, 2008 8:49 PM PDT
Started in prisons?

Pure BS

I remember seeing "White" people, from power linesmen, to gardeners, to truck drivers, and many other "regular joes" in my youth, whose pants sagged to the point that not only underwear, but their bare crack was showing, and I am sure many of the older posters also remember such, the sight has been joked about in movies that came out more than a decade or ago.

Why was it not a problem then, but is now?
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 18, 2008 9:11 PM PDT
"Adults can wear what they want, but what''''s wrong with a bit of DIGNITY, SELF-RESPECT, RESPECT FOR OTHERS, et cetera?" Posted by hypnotoad72

Nothing wrong with it, but such concepts cannot be legislated. Dignity and self-respect are subjective, I personally know tribal chiefs in Papua Nugini who are very dignified, and have not only self respect, but the respect of others, and all they wear is a hollowed out gourd called in English a p*enis sheath, but in their language a koteka.

Besides, if such concepts were to be codified into law, groups like the kkk, aryan nations, and people like Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, David Duke, and others of such ilk would be in jail.

Peeing is indeed a public health hazard, so there is logic behind bans on urinating in public, but breast feeding is a perfectly healthy way of showing concern, respect, and love to the humans that need it, i.s., infants, and so I have always considered bans on public breast feeding to be an idiotic extremist variant of outdated pre-Victorian prudishness.

The "right to not see" a thing is easily exercised, simply avert your vision.

Stercus accidit.
Reply to this comment
by pensacola98 September 18, 2008 9:12 PM PDT
If we were all naked, then what would be our next criteria about appearance, that would be used for arresting someone?

Rebellion and non-conformist expression is designed to oppose the establishment. When someone gets offended, then the so-called offender just became gratified. They are dissentors, not offenders.

If we were all naked, then what would be our next criteria about appearance, that would be used for arresting someone?

Living with dissentors isn''t going to make us weaker, but stronger. We need to open our minds and know that without dissentors, we not only are easily trapped by our own righteousness, but are victims of it!!

Be happy that we can have a country that permits dissentors to express their views.

Imagine Communist Russia 1980, with everyone wearing the same thing, and no freedom or choices...then remember what happened to the dissentors. How short is your memory? If you want to arrest dissentors, go live in that type of place.

This is not a place for people who arrest their dissentors. This is not NAZI Germany, COMMUNIST Russia, or FACIST Italy.

Get off your high horses and open your minds! The judge in Florida was wise not to waste tax dollars fighting for the state''s right to oppress dissentor behavior. Doing so would have taken Florida one step closer to totalitarian government that many people fought to repel!!!
Reply to this comment
by rushlimpdrug September 18, 2008 9:27 PM PDT

"Pure BS
I remember seeing "White" people, from power linesmen, to gardeners, . . . .
Why was it not a problem then, but is now?
Posted by brianbwb at 08:49 PM


Is EVERYTHING racial to you?

Get over it already.

Your krap points are getting older than slavery.

Reply to this comment
by missingamerica September 18, 2008 10:26 PM PDT
Although I think the saggy pants thing is about as dorky as you can get, what really bothers me is the "fashion" actually is an imitation of jail house attire, where inmates have their belts taken away from them to insure they don''t strangle or otherwise assault another inmate or hang themselves with them.

That is sad on two counts:

One, that kids would want to look like they are prepared to go to jail.

Two, that so many people have been in jail these days - far too many of them for minor drug crimes - that that quirk of attire could become "fashion".
Reply to this comment
by txrebrn September 18, 2008 10:52 PM PDT
The statement about the "fashion" originating in the prison system is correct. The part that was left out of that explanation is that the sagging pants is a statement of solicitation. Those in prison know this and when give their wisdom to those outside it is denied, not believed or felt to be made up just to get a reaction from those who perpetuate this "fashion". Those same young men will see this for themselves should they continue participate in this life pathway.
Reply to this comment
by kidjr27 September 18, 2008 10:59 PM PDT
Testing,,,
Reply to this comment
by kidjr27 September 18, 2008 11:02 PM PDT
Do you people not see that they are taking freedoms away little by little. They been trying all kinds of things in different area basically testing out how to go about their New World Order. It is time to wake up america and stop doing what your told. They are wrong! You have been lied to! WAKE UP!!! Peace and God bless..
Reply to this comment
by notfooled September 18, 2008 11:05 PM PDT
"This is not about the government trying to control how you dress," Mr. Caraway told The Dallas Morning News. "It%u2019s to protect the rights of others who don%u2019t want to see someone%u2019s butt."

I must have missed this right in the constitution. Must be in the fine print somewhere.

People can wear next to nothing, bikini''s and speedo''s, that pass for a swimming suit, and yet these folks are giving tickets for letting your underwear show?

What''s next, a limit on the amount of cleavage that can be shown?

What about women who wear men''s boxer shorts for pants? Thats showing all of the underwear!

Of course, in my opinion, letting your underwear show is adolescent and tasteless, but it''s surely not criminal.

Me thinks some folks simply have their shorts on too tight:)
Reply to this comment
by ursodumb September 19, 2008 12:27 AM PDT
this is stupid. these kids nowadays are stupid. showing their butts in public. like anyone wants to see that. im sure my kid does it when im not around because he tries sometimes when i am around, when i catch him i give his pants a little tug. thats a funny sight when it happens. him thrashing around trying to pull them up. hahahaha
Reply to this comment
by smurfcrusher September 19, 2008 12:39 AM PDT
"this is stupid. these kids nowadays are stupid. showing their butts in public. like anyone wants to see that. im sure my kid does it when im not around because he tries sometimes when i am around, when i catch him i give his pants a little tug. thats a funny sight when it happens. him thrashing around trying to pull them up. hahahaha"

Posted by URSODUMB

Did he get that habit in prison, too?
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 19, 2008 12:53 AM PDT
"Your krap points are getting older than slavery."
Posted by rushlimpdrug

So are sagging pants, this lie about it starting in prisons is total BS, as is your non rebuttal of the main point. judging from your inability to understand the point, it seems you, or maybe your father were guilty of it way back then, also.

Racist? It is what I, and those around me saw. I very rarely ever saw "Black" people, even the economically less well off, dress in such fashion, while it was a common sight amongst working-class "Whites".

We used to laugh, at them a popular joke was that such people gave new meaning to the word "cracker."
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 19, 2008 12:53 AM PDT
"Your krap points are getting older than slavery."
Posted by rushlimpdrug

So are sagging pants, this lie about it starting in prisons is total BS, as is your non rebuttal of the main point. judging from your inability to understand the point, it seems you, or maybe your father were guilty of it way back then, also.

Racist? It is what I, and those around me saw. I very rarely ever saw "Black" people, even the economically less well off, dress in such fashion, while it was a common sight amongst working-class "Whites".

We used to laugh, at them a popular joke was that such people gave new meaning to the word "cracker."
Reply to this comment
by smurfcrusher September 19, 2008 12:58 AM PDT
"We used to laugh, at them a popular joke was that such people gave new meaning to the word "cracker."

Posted by brianbwb


Hahahahaha!!!

Crack kills!!
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 19, 2008 12:59 AM PDT
Posted by txrebrn

No, it is not correct. It was a common sight to see working class "White" people whose rear cleavage was on ample display way back in my childhood during the 60s. These were not ex-cons, just normal people, whose blue jeans were not designed for a hips that were smaller than the bulging waistline.

Construction workers, plumbers, power line workers, truck drivers, just normal working-class people.
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 19, 2008 1:03 AM PDT
"Crack kills!!" Posted by smurfcrusher

Don''t be a wise crack, you''re cracking me up ; )
What do you call a g*ay man''s vibrator? A crack pipe.
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 September 19, 2008 1:08 AM PDT
Step on a crack, break that mutha''s back.
Reply to this comment
by rudy654-2009 September 19, 2008 2:37 AM PDT
How hypocritical. A judge can tell me that I have to dress appropriately in his courtroom but the people cannot tell others to pull up their pants when out in public.
Reply to this comment
by airboatboy1 September 19, 2008 4:06 AM PDT
I''m afraid if they outlaw this next they will outlaw bikinis or thongs, so let em'' wear em'' down to their ankles. I hate it, but if ya'' don''t like it, don''t look.
Reply to this comment
by dsr57 September 19, 2008 4:08 AM PDT
Judge Moyle says its unconstitutional but fails to say why. I guess laws against public nudity are also unconstitutional.

Posted by downsteamjim

-----------------------------------------------------

Not even close to the same thing. A woman wearing bikini bottoms around town would probably get looked at funny but she would be well within her rights to do so and all they are is basically underware. So, what''s the difference if a guy wears pants showing his underware? I mean seriously, have you seen some of the runners shorts? They might as well be speedo''s and NO MAN should ever wear Speedo''s. Ever.
Reply to this comment
by dsr57 September 19, 2008 4:22 AM PDT
What I find weird is that I graduated from high school in 97. and when I was a freshman which was 15 years ago, we were all sagging our pants. it%u2019s not like this is new. God, now that I think about it, 2 years before that we were tight rolling our pants too, now THAT was embarrassing.
Reply to this comment
by stupidrules3 September 19, 2008 6:40 AM PDT
If all the thugs want to wear their pants like that, let them. The cops love it. Have you ever tried to run with your pants crotch at your knees? It also makes them easier to identify. What? Profiling? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......
Reply to this comment
by stupidrules3 September 19, 2008 6:53 AM PDT
I saw a sign in a local liquor store window that said:

If you want to be treated with respect, pull up your pants. If you don''t want to pull up your pants, go somewhere else.

I guess the owner of this store is exercising his freedom too.
Reply to this comment
by xraytwonine September 19, 2008 8:10 AM PDT
gotta love this country, we are constantly on the edge of becoming either a fascist or communist state
Reply to this comment
by beehive21-2009 September 19, 2008 9:10 AM PDT
The Judge made the right call,riding a bike in a bathing suit is not against the law,so whats up with the cop.Hope the police have more important things to do.
Reply to this comment
by cutie89tx September 19, 2008 9:34 AM PDT
isn''t it racist to begin with for someone to say that only african-americans wear their pants like that? and by the way, it''s almost similar to a girl who wears low low low-rise jeans with her granny panties hanging out. it''s not always "indecent" but no one needs to see your underwear. What''s the point of that? You''re not at home. You''re in public.
Reply to this comment
by cutie89tx September 19, 2008 9:40 AM PDT
Posted by Bob5ford at 07:32 PM : Sep 18, 2008
+ report abuse

'''' .. i saw a tiny nudist kid once walking down a city sidewalk, a full grown man with a badge and a gun told her to get dressed or he''''d have to do things to her, and she whispered something to him and they lived happily ever after, for about twenty minutes till she got bored with him .. ''''


---ok, stop talking about porn.
__________________________________
Posted by stick1771 at 06:53 PM : Sep 18, 2008
report abuse
Grow Up Morons. It''''s not nudity to show underwear. If a hottie jumps out of the car in a bikini at am/pm for a soda on the way to the pool bet your old self doesn''''t say any thing about that do you. We are talking about America and her freadoms. You know, the thing our men and women are over seas fighting for. I bet more than half of those boys over there wore thier pants that way before they left to boot camp. Now you clowns want to make it a crime. Next it will be hair color.

---it''s "freEdom" -not "freAdom". anyway, they''re not fighting for our freedoms over there. They''re fighting for something else; terrorists can take away lives but seriously, what can they do to abolish our freedom? they can''t completely take over our country - especially when they are located in terrorist cells throughout various countries...
Reply to this comment
by September 19, 2008 9:45 AM PDT
Guess all plumber will need to wear overalls....
Reply to this comment
by September 19, 2008 9:47 AM PDT
cutie89tx, have you had your meds today? You seem to be rambling about three different things at once, not making sense of any of them...
Reply to this comment
by indianaman13 September 19, 2008 11:43 AM PDT
at least plumbers work. Kids, and children in adult bodies, simply, and will always, flaunt the rule of law, and social ecxeptance of an older generation, just to be a rebel.
Reply to this comment
by myopinion381 September 19, 2008 3:37 PM PDT
I, myself, don''t have a problem if people want to walk around with their underware hanging out and their pants about to fall down. I have, however, asked my teenage daughter what she thinks of it and she said they look stupid. Good thing her boyfriend doesn''t do it. Think I would have to get out a staple/nail gun and make sure they don''t fall down.
Reply to this comment
by swwils September 20, 2008 5:19 AM PDT
People we have more things to worry about than sagging pants,I mean there are countries out there trying to destroy America,and all Americans,lets get our S.H.I.t. together for once and stand united.
Reply to this comment
by tootall10142 September 20, 2008 10:28 AM PDT
RAG HEADED RAPPERS AND WANNA BE GANGSTERS THAT CANT KEEP THIER PANTS UP AND THIER SHIRT TAIL TUCKED IN.THIS IS BLACK PEOPLE BEING ******* AND WHITE PEOPLE EXHIBITING THIER ABILITY TO FULL FILL THIER AMBITION TO BE WHITE TRASH AND DEFIANT LOSERS.
Reply to this comment
by ericv2644 September 20, 2008 1:17 PM PDT
The sagging pant style originated in jail, the homosexuals would wear their pant low to indicate that they were willing to have anal intercourse. The lower the pant the more they were willing to do sexually. Maybe if these kids knew where this style started they would be less willing to expose themselves.
Reply to this comment
by barbaram99 September 20, 2008 4:16 PM PDT
My father is a vet. I realise this 08. I wear jeans and comy garments. No I do not dress in that manner. I am older. When I go out I am covered. They see my face,hands and not my underwear..Have them folks read the constution? What it is they want to applease the them by saying it is a black thing .It is not. White,black,male,female and all ages do this. WHY. They want to belong to something and clothes send that message. Sure they want to dress as their peers. I was a teen and I was told what I could /could not wear. We had dress codes.I have met persons who would not males most so who told them would not cut their hair and remove the ear rings to serve this nation. That earring was more inportant to him than America asking his service. It is the same with the bloody haft dressed ,body art,etc. I read that most can''t enter the military. I can''t due to age and blindness and phy handcaps. I thank our vets and troops. I don''t just say that here. I do and *** their paw. When it comes to the kids I can''t blame them. I do the adults who allow this. No where in the condtution does it say we are allowed to dress to shock,control,etc. There are dress codes at school,work,home, How we dress has/is/will be a sore spot. I did have this problem and when I raised my paw in class my blouse did not stay put and so that meant I had to a not raise my paw or b have to tuck it in right there. I wore what I was given to as a fostor child. I was not allowed to dress as the other girls.
Reply to this comment
by babooph September 20, 2008 9:34 PM PDT
How do the family values politicians dress -I know they have a" wide stance"-pants are "high" or off?
Reply to this comment
by silverado2nv September 21, 2008 7:24 AM PDT
RAG HEADED RAPPERS AND WANNA BE GANGSTERS THAT CANT KEEP THIER PANTS UP AND THIER SHIRT TAIL TUCKED IN.THIS IS BLACK PEOPLE BEING ******* AND WHITE PEOPLE EXHIBITING THIER ABILITY TO FULL FILL THIER AMBITION TO BE WHITE TRASH AND DEFIANT LOSERS.

Posted by tootall10142 at 10:28 AM : Sep 20, 2008

You my friend are a ***, get over it and go change your depends, ohh and you might want to hit the CAPS LOCK
Reply to this comment
See all 50 Comments
  • MOST POPULAR
  • Viewed
  • Commented
Latest News
Featured Blogs