Arctic Sea Ice Shrinkage Grows

Permanent "Sea Ice" Shown To Have Shrunk By Half In Latest NASA Images

(CNET)  NASA has issued a preliminary report confirming environmentalists' fears of disappearing sea ice at the Arctic.

Sea ice is the thick permanent ice formed by frozen ocean water that remains even as seasonal ice melts away in the summer. In the past, it has covered about 60 percent of the Arctic.

The sea ice at the Arctic has now been found to have melted away by as much as half, according to a preliminary report issued Tuesday by NASA and the NASA-supported National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado.

"According to NASA-processed satellite microwave data, this perennial ice used to cover 50 to 60 percent of the Arctic, but this winter it covered less than 30 percent," NASA said in a statement.

It is the second-smallest amount of coverage since NASA began monitoring the situation in 1979. The Artic's sea ice coverage this September is about 33 percent below average, compared with the record low of 39 percent below average recorded in 2007.

At this time, neither NASA nor the National Snow and Ice Data Center have made suggestions as to the possible cause for the change. A thorough analysis of the data is scheduled to be released the first week of October, according to NASA.

[rosesnpearls]

shrinkage grows? is that possible?

[smurfcrusher]

tiddsanbeer, your argument is irrelevant.

It''s like saying, there used to be a Great Depression, so go ahead and be financially irresponsible.

Natural cycles never included unnatural influences.

What effect do you think the following would have on the climate?

127.5 BILLION short tons of coal burned since 1980
950 BILLION barrels of oil consumed since 1960

Regardless of whether or not a natural cycle is influencing climate change, this massive, man-made influence is NOT helping !

Or do you disagree?

[cevn]

I worry more about the melting ice on Greenland running into the north Atlantic and shutting down the thermohaline circulation. If that happens there won''t be a debate about IF humans are responsible for the current warming trend, because we will be fighting for our lives.

[smurfcrusher]

p.s. And don''t forget the 2,000 trillion cubic feet of dry natural gas burned since 1980.

[smurfcrusher]

"I worry more about the melting ice on Greenland running into the north Atlantic and shutting down the thermohaline circulation. If that happens there won''''t be a debate about IF humans are responsible for the current warming trend, because we will be fighting for our lives. "
----------------------------------------------------

Posted by cevn

I''m most concerned about methane hydrates both in melting permafrost, as well as in the ocean.

Methane has more powerful warming effects than carbon dioxide, and there are more methane hydrate stores in permafrost and seawater than all of the world''s known petroleum reserves.

This is known as a WAKE UP CALL, folks!

[erasmus81]

"This is known as a WAKE UP CALL, folks!" Posted by smurfcrusher at 12:30 PM : Sep 17, 2008

I''m afraid that there are some that just don''t want to wake up. It''s easier to remain in DENIAL.

[cevn]

Your right about the methane hydrates. Does anyone know how much the temp must rise for the clathrates to melt? Also, how long does it take for the temperature at these depths to change in proportion to atmospheric increases? I''m done arguing with neocons about scientific topics. Palin thinks the earth is 7000 years old and that scares the BeJebus out of me!

[cevn]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/03/ap/world/main4411300.shtml?source=search_story more melting! How much ice has to melt? tiddsanbeer...this doesn''t scare you? Government beuracracy is worse? Please! If not the government, them who? Will corporations do something? Look what a few changes in banking regulation are doing! Reagan''s neoconservatism is dead, I hope we don''t go down with it!

[smurfcrusher]

"Your right about the methane hydrates. Does anyone know how much the temp must rise for the clathrates to melt? Also, how long does it take for the temperature at these depths to change in proportion to atmospheric increases? I''''m done arguing with neocons about scientific topics. Palin thinks the earth is 7000 years old and that scares the BeJebus out of me! "

Posted by cevn

clathrates are very unstable; but there is already evidence of large-scale dissociation off the coast of Norway (giant submarine holes in the sea bed).

Dramatic footage of dissociation events off California have been filmed and are probably available online... a foaming, bubbling patch of sea where the methane is escaping.

I can''t provide rates per degree change in temperature... but I do know that estimates of carbon in permafrost have recently doubled, and this is a mix of organic carbon (subject to bacterial decomposition, releasing CO2) and methane hydrates.

The thought of dinosaurs and humans coexisting is simply too ridiculous to comment on. You can probably guess how I will be voting...

[justspiffy]

One thing that hasn''t been mentioned is as the melting continues it dilutes the Gulf Stream as that
continues it will cause a new Ice Age.

[redbds]

"Arctic Sea Ice Shrinkage Grows"

More proof that a bunch ao liberal idiots are running CBS!

[seafang]

What a crock; sea ice shrinkage grows. In 2007 it was 39% less than normal and in 2008 it is 33% less than normal. That means sea ice shrinkage shrinks to me. What idiots.
And that ain''t the half of it; they are talking about the shrinkage that took place this winter:
" "According to NASA-processed satellite microwave data, this perennial ice used to cover 50 to 60 percent of the Arctic, but this winter it covered less than 30 percent," NASA said in a statement. "

That''s a direct quote from NASA. Wasn''t this winter way back in february .

Actually, there was 500,000 square miles more sea ice this summer, than in 2007, and it is thicker too. Their silly satellite has been reading impassable sea ice as open water. My Norwegian Nobel prize winning glaciologist in Greenland says there is more than enough ice for everybody, and a lot more than last year; despite the fact that the shrinkage is growing or shrinking according to your understanding of English

[seafang]

"I worry more about the melting ice on Greenland running into the north Atlantic and shutting down the thermohaline circulation. If that happens there won''''t be a debate about IF humans are responsible for the current warming trend, because we will be fighting for our lives.
Posted by cevn at 12:26 PM : Sep 17, 2008 "

No need to worry old chap; first of all there isn''t any "current warming trend" (your words) and there hasn''t been any for the last ten years and maybe 13 years. We are actually in a cooling trend,a nd have been since 1995; yet CO2 continues to go up and none of the computer modelling warming and sea rise has come to pass.

And forget that thermohaline nonsense; so long as the earth keeps rotating in the same direction, the gulf stream will continue to flow; it couldn''t stop if it wanted to.

As for that methane silliness; according to the official NASA/NOAA earth energy budget which you can easily find for yourselves online, the earth emits about 390 Watts per square meter of long wavelength infrared, and out of that 390 only 40 W.m^2 is able to escape directly and the rest is trapped in the atmosphere by GHGs including water; the ultimate GHG.
So even if Methane was 1000 times as absorbing as CO2 (it isn''t) there''s only another 10% of the IR to stop.

And methane is a very desirable and renewable fuel (plants make it constantly) so instead of worrying about that stuff at the ocean bottom we should be tapping into it and using it for natural gas fuel.

[fossilgeek]

Funny. Last week you sought to terrorize us with the news that an ice shelf the size of Manhattan had broken loose. Now we learn that the amount additional ice over last year is over 4,400 times that amount - and now you want to scare us with that?

As for last year''s junk science theory - shutting down the thermohaline circulation - I suggest those who fear this get up to date with the science - even the kooks don''t subscribe to that "theory" any more. You''re better of to join the kooks who believe in the "methane burp" theory ... at least that hasn''t been totally debunked yet.

If you want to really freak out, worry about when (not if, but when) we return to Earth''s normal, colder climate (such as during the "Little Ice Age" and prior to the Middle Ages). If you think it is more difficult to grow some crops in a warmer climate, try growing them in a colder and shorter growing season. Ample Geological evidence points to the inevitability of this - it''s only a matter of when and how much.

[guadalcanal3]

Maybe the birds will get bigger and be called dinosaurs again.

[mydogdylan6]

Well all the data gathered via geology, carbon dating, and other methods that goes farther than 10,000 years ago is a complete myth.

Sarah Palin says the earth is only 10,000 years old and she is by far the smartest woman in America!

[nycprof]

As a professor in paleo climate change, I am so embarrassed by the willfully ignorant climate change deniers. The US is the only first-world country that still has a debate about whether climate change is occurring and that it is caused by anthropogenic effects. When it comes to science literacy we have less in common with western Europe than we do with the level of science literacy of the Taliban and Saudi Arabia.

Please go to the web sites of the European, Canadian, or other developed countries and you will see that we are alone in our reality challenged perspective.

[ocasanas]

Does this mean that it will get harder and harder to get a whiskey on the rocks?

[hawksprings]

The shrinkage grows???
Has anyone told George Costanza?

[noboundary]

Confusing title to some but nevertheless clear.

What is happening is rather simple. More melting than normal = more heat added than normal. Since melting ice requires a massive amount of heat, once the ice is gone, earth won''t be able to handle the heat and temperature swings throughout the year will be higher. Just do this experiment for me. Put some ice in a glass of water and add heat while monitoring temperature. Notice that the temperature really doesn''t rise at all until the ice melts - then, even small additions of heat cause a substantial rise in temperature. The same will happen to the earth. Unfortunately, most people commenting on this forum are the victims of an educational system gone very wrong. But there is still hope if you will take the time to study and think critically!

[lovesamerica]

They called it permanent ice. n the winter things freeze,yes, but they,I believe are talking about ice that has been frozen for millenium disapearing. Ignorance will not stop it from happening

[hawksprings]

"...ice that has been frozen for millenium disapearing. Ignorance will not stop it from happening"
Posted by lovesamerica

A millenium? A 1000 years?
How do you know this?
How do you know that sometime in the last 1000 years the artic ice hadn''t melted more than it has now?
NASA has only been monitoring it since 1979, I think that''s only 29 years.
Who''s been monitoring it the other 971 years for you?
Eskimos?

[downsteamjim]

Maybe the growing is shrinking!

[cbs_tom]

The northern cap is certainly being warmed. However, to the other cap, it is getting colder. Can anyone explain?

[barbaraf4]

"As a professor in paleo climate change, I am so embarrassed by the willfully ignorant climate change deniers. The US is the only first-world country that still has a debate about whether climate change is occurring and that it is caused by anthropogenic effects. When it comes to science literacy we have less in common with western Europe than we do with the level of science literacy of the Taliban and Saudi Arabia.

Please go to the web sites of the European, Canadian, or other developed countries and you will see that we are alone in our reality challenged perspective." Posted by NYCPROF
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well said. For some reason, the masses just don''t get this message and I find it frightening. These are the same people who believe McCain is a viable option after 8 years of Republican rule (mine isn''t a political message, just one of logic.)

[louiville2]

Langmuir''s Laws of bad science

1 .The maximum effect that is observed is produced by a causative agent of barely detectable intensity, and the magnitude of the effect is substantially independent of the intensity of the cause. (e.g. CO2)

2. The effect is of a magnitude that remains close to the limit of detectability, or many measurements are necessary because of the low level of significance of the results. (0.6 C degree world wide)

3. There are claims of great accuracy. (climate models that can''t predict past KNOWN data)

4. Fantastic theories contrary to experience are suggested. ( we are seeing that now)

5. Criticisms are met by ad hoc excuses thought up on the spur of the moment. (just listen to Al Gore etc....)

6. The ratio of supporters to critics rises to somewhere near 50% and then falls gradually to zero. (supporters currently dropping/accelerating)

[frankie2fing]

A millenium? A 1000 years?
How do you know this?
How do you know that sometime in the last 1000 years the artic ice hadn''''t melted more than it has now?
NASA has only been monitoring it since 1979, I think that''''s only 29 years.
Who''''s been monitoring it the other 971 years for you?
Eskimos?

You are a fool as well as an idiot. You MUST be a ditto head, since you are incapable of free thinking. Gotta have some other idiot explain it to you. Have you ever heard of ice cores? These cores show that the ices has been there for more than a million years. Our environment is in peril. But with dumb@sses like you walking around, maybe the humam race should go extinct for the greater good.
Posted by HawkSprings

[frankie2fing]

When Ivan Langmuir coined your quotes, he was 76 years old and, some say, senile.

[xmanborg]

Now the Polar Bear will be on the endangered list and they will be very very very hungry because there is no seals to catch and eat.

Since food will be hard to find for the Polar Bear we will just have to start feeding them REPUBLICANS and we will start with George Bush and his Family and then the Cheneys and then Connie Rice and then the Senate Republicans and House Republicans and then all the Red Neck Republicans and so on and so forth.

[usamohammed]

All guys know Freezing cold causes shrinkage

[xmanborg]

Now the Polar Bear will be on the endangered list and they will be very very very hungry because there is no seals to catch and eat.

Since food will be hard to find for the Polar Bear we will just have to start feeding them REPUBLICANS and we will start with George Bush and his Family and then the Cheneys and then Connie Rice and then the Senate Republicans and House Republicans and then all the Red Neck Republicans and so on and so forth.

McLame and Sarah Palin will be on the menue after the election. Fyi McLame is not very tasty because he is old and full of medications but Sarah Palin is Kibbles and Bits for the Polar Bears she is Hot and Spunky.

[louiville2]

This article proves that the Ice cap is growing from last year. Since we were told in June that the north pole would be free of ice just shows another scare monger story bust (for those who refuse to see/remember you know the "half empty" crowd).

[louiville2]

"When Ivan Langmuir coined your quotes, he was 76 years old and, some say, senile.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by frankie2fing"

Typical self loathing individual.


"Can''t attack the message attack the messenger%u201D eh truth hurts?

AGW proponents fit this law better.
Maier''s Law

If the facts don''t conform to the theory, they must be disposed of.

Corollaries:
1) The bigger the theory, the better.

2) The experiment may be considered a success if no more than 50% of the observed measurements must be discarded to obtain a correspondence with the theory.


(for proof see http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/noaa-claims-global-summer-temperature-was-ninth-warmest-questionable/ )

[xmanborg]

willo1301

WWWWWWWWaaaaaaa

We will feed you to the Polar Bears also because your a douschbag.

[frankie2fing]

Since food will be hard to find for the Polar Bear we will just have to start feeding them REPUBLICANS and we will start with George Bush and his Family and then the Cheneys and then Connie Rice and then the Senate Republicans and House Republicans and then all the Red Neck Republicans and so on and so forth.


Posted by XmanBorg

Like they are not dying fast enough, now you want to poison them?

[nycprof]

As a scientist conducting research on climate change, I am once again embarrassed by the stupidity of the American populace as exemplified by the preceding comments.

The arrogance of the commentators below who are so willfully ignorant resulting in being reality challenged is so distressing.

We are the ONLY developed country that still has a debate about climate change. When it comes to science literacy, we have less in common with Western Europe and more in common with the Taliban and Saudi Arabia. This type of hubris is so typical of people who are willfully ignorant (e.g., think Germans in the 1930%u2019s).

[xmanborg]

frankie2fing

Pretty Funny !

[frankie2fing]

louiville2 - wow, someone questions your narrow view of the world and you will find anything to contradict even common sense. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, it traps heat - FACT. Nature (environment) deals with it using plant life to convert CO2 into cellulose (wood) and other plant material - FACT. When the plants die, they become buried and the carbon is buried with it. Over time, the plant material will build up and eventually be converted to a hydrocarbon, usually deep within the Earth. Nature has already dealt with the CO2. Now along comes this really smart animal who digs up the hydrocarbons and burns them, releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. Further, this smart animal is multiplying at such an alarming rate that they are displacing the space that nature would use to grow plants to try and get rid of the CO2 again. The smart animal decides that it is not a problem, closes his eyes to it and says "climate change is not happening."

[louiville2]

This type of hubris is so typical of people who are willfully ignorant (e.g., think Germans in the 1930%u2019s).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by NYCPROF

Funny you should bring that up!

"National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel."-Joseph Goebbels Just insert environmetalism (or green) where national socialism is and American where German is.

[louiville2]

Further, this smart animal is multiplying at such an alarming rate that they are displacing the space that nature would use to grow plants to try and get rid of the CO2 again. The smart animal decides that it is not a problem, closes his eyes to it and says "climate change is not happening."-Posted by frankie2fing Hey frank nice diatribe but I spreken ze Fourier transforms etc... so let''s really debate this at a higher level.

[louiville2]

I think most AGW proponents do not really understand the scale we are talking about. For example:
Texas 268,601 square miles x 5280 ft x 5280 ft = 7,488,166,118,400 sqft. 7,488,166,118,400 sqft/ 7,000,000,000 people = 1069 sqft/person. In other words ALL of the people in the world could easily fit into the state of Texas. So a family of four will have over 4,000 sqft to live in (about the size of the typical suburban home) and that%u2019s with out stacking in apts. Etc... Earths surface area is 196,935,000 sq miles. 268,601 /196,935,000 sq miles= 0.00145 x 100 = 0.15% of the earths surface. In other words the entire population of the planet occupies less then 0.15% of the world. But the AGW proponents make outlandish claims of how us, really bacteria of bacteria, on the scale of things are changing the planet. CO2 as compared with the rest of the atmosphere is only 38 molecules out of 100,000 and of that 38 man%u2019s contribution is about 1-2. CO2 is a %u201CTrace Gas%u201D, that%u2019s why after $50 billion the scientist have still not found conclusive proof of AGW and it is still an hypothesis. I really doubt that another $50 billion will solve it.

[frankie2fing]

But the AGW proponents make outlandish claims of how us, really bacteria of bacteria, on the scale of things are changing the planet. CO2 as compared with the rest of the atmosphere is only 38 molecules out of 100,000 and of that 38 man%u2019s contribution is about 1-2. CO2 is a %u201CTrace Gas%u201D, that%u2019s why after $50 billion the scientist have still not found conclusive proof of AGW and it is still an hypothesis. I really doubt that another $50 billion will solve it.
Posted by louiville2

Those numbers are inaccurate. Further, even if they were right, the way they are presented is misleading. CO2 is about 370 PPM in the atmosphere, that is UP 30% since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. As a ''trace gas'' it is suppose to be a small amount in the atmosphere, and a small increase can cause a large change in the heat trapped by it. While your 38 per 100,000 molecules is accurate, the amount contributed by man is about 11-12. And increasing each year because people like you will not even try to take basic steps towards Environmentally Friendly energy sources.

[frankie2fing]

BTW - Hey frank nice diatribe but I spreken ze Fourier transforms etc... Posted by louiville2

Huh?

[frankie2fing]

Texas 268,601 square miles x 5280 ft x 5280 ft = 7,488,166,118,400 sqft. 7,488,166,118,400 sqft/ 7,000,000,000 people = 1069 sqft/person. In other words ALL of the people in the world could easily fit into the state of Texas. So a family of four will have over 4,000 sqft to live in (about the size of the typical suburban home) and that%u2019s with out stacking in apts. Etc... Earths surface area is 196,935,000 sq miles. 268,601 /196,935,000 sq miles= 0.00145 x 100 = 0.15% of the earths surface. In other words the entire population of the planet occupies less then 0.15% of the world.
Posted by louiville2

Also, nice try. The human footprint is huge. Man requires the about 3 square miles per person to live (farm land, golf courses, roads, work locations, etc.) That is alot bigger than a family of four will have over 4,000 sqft. Typical republican smoke and mirrors.

[louiville2]

BTW - Hey frank nice diatribe but I spreken ze Fourier transforms etc... Posted by louiville2

Huh?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by frankie2fing

Hmmmm. Fourier transforms are used in CLIMATE MODELS,kind of one of those DUH things that NYCPROF was complaining about.

[louiville2]

"Also, nice try. The human footprint is huge. Man requires the about 3 square miles per person to live (farm land, golf courses, roads, work locations, etc.) That is alot bigger than a family of four will have over 4,000 sqft. Typical republican smoke and mirrors.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by frankie2fing "

Frank ALL those areas have plants and animals living on them, you know converting CO2 to fixed carbon (i.e. plants grow on CO2-animals eat plants grow then die and get buried, you should really read your own information. They figure that plant production is up by almost 30% over the last 200 years. (i.e. more plants more animals) Typical "red herrings" of the left. BTW I''m not a republican I just have a disdane for people who cry fire over a drop of the hat.

[dburfears]

"At this time, neither NASA nor the National Snow and Ice Data Center have made suggestions as to the possible cause for the change."

We know why. Bush and the McCain Republicans CENSOR SCIENCE they do not agree with.

Don''t look for the truth about what is really happening to the planet until these anti-science luddites are shown the door.

[on_alert247]

We know why. Bush and the McCain Republicans CENSOR SCIENCE they do not agree with.
Posted by dburfears at 08:21 PM : Sep 18, 2008

If you are going to open your mouth and sound like a moron, you''re going to get feedback. What scientific journals have censored reports at the request of the WH on the recent arctic ice melt? Answer: NONE YOU IDIOT.