Math Tests For Five-Year-Olds?

NYC Proposal To Assess Kindergartners' Skills Stirs Debate Over Standardized Tests

(AP)  The city is asking public school principals to consider giving math tests to kindergartners, a proposal that comes amid debate over the growing use of standardized tests nationwide.

The experiment could involve tests as long as 90 minutes and change reading assessments for kindergartners through second-graders in the nation's biggest school system, where Mayor Michael Bloomberg's administration has embraced testing. The approach dismays some parents and educators who see it as mechanizing education.

The Department of Education unveiled the $400,000 program in an e-mail Monday inviting elementary school principals to participate. About 65 principals have expressed interest, and as many as 12,000 pupils may ultimately be involved, said James Liebman, the department's accountability chief.

Principals who sign on will choose from five testing systems, each with math and reading components. They include workbook-like, multiple-choice assessments estimated to take kindergartners as much as 60 to 90 minutes per section, according to the Department of Education. Other options include roughly 30-minute-long tests pupils would complete on computers and 10-minute-long sessions face-to-face with a teacher.

Children in kindergarten through second grade are currently assessed only in literacy, through one-on-one, 20-to-30-minute-long interactions in which teachers write down their multiple-choice answers, Liebman said.

The scores on the new tests would not affect pupils' grades or teachers' evaluations but would yield a better picture of children's progress than current tests do, he said.

The city plans to evaluate next year whether the initiative is worth continuing. Liebman said it could help principals see how their schools are doing before third grade, when testing required by the 2002 federal No Child Left Behind Act begins.

"There's nothing about (the tests) that is designed to create anxiety or create a sense of evaluation or create a sense of being compared to someone else," he said.

But the head of the city teachers' union says that's unlikely.

"Once the information is available, the potential exists for school administrators to use it to track students and make premature assessments," said Randi Weingarten, president of the city-based United Federation of Teachers and its nationwide parent, the American Federation of Teachers.

The Bloomberg administration has made testing a centerpiece of its school policy, going beyond No Child Left Behind requirements. For each of the city's more than 1,400 schools, third-grade through 12th-grade test scores factor significantly in letter grades - which can earn principals bonuses or jeopardize their jobs.

The kindergarten through second-grade scores wouldn't affect school grades for now, Liebman said, though the Department of Education might take the results into account if principals requested it. Some feel the current grading system shortchanges their schools' accomplishments with younger students, he said.

The school grades and stress on test scores anger some parents and teachers, who say classes are being drained of creativity and reduced to drills on how to ace standardized exams. Critics fear the proposed assessment changes could turn even kindergarten into test prep, despite the city's insistence that the intent is only to guide teachers' and administrators' efforts.

"We're teaching kids how to get the right answers, not how to find the knowledge," said state Assemblyman Mark Weprin, a Queens Democrat with sons in public middle and elementary schools.

The rise of testing in No Child Left Behind's wake has caused contention nationally. Some studies show students' math and reading skills have improved, but that schools have cut back on history, music and other subjects.

[billings31]

Who are these idoits who want all the standized testing??? Have we not learned that when these tests are in place that education goes down hill? All school districts that I have been associated with that have these tests are now teaching at a level so that the students pass the test. Nothing else is taught. You think that doesn''t happen? Look again. The American education system is being dumbed down. Starting with the No Child Left Behind Act. Great idea but the implications have resulted in No Child Can Get Ahead of the One that is the slowest.

[rational_1]

What a bunch of idiots. They should be locked up in a room with a group of 5 year-olds for 90 minutes while they try to get them to sit through their tests. LOL. Obviously the genius who thought up this little beauty of an idea has never spent more than 10 minutes in the company of a 5 year-old (especially a boy). I would like to see them try it though, if only for my amusement - the phrase herding cats comes to mind.

What we need are teachers that can teach math and not use the "government standard" for teaching it. I would say at least 80 percent of the population will say, "I hated math" which doesn''t help our children at all. Teachers need to bulk up on their own skills in mathematics and science. Not have a bunch of bean counters sitting on their duffs trying to figure out an "EASY" way of teachin.

[feddupp]

What on Earth do people have against CHILDREN being CHILDREN for the FEW PRECIOUS years that they have??
Why rush them into adulthood?

Can this possibly have anything to do with why some children join GANGS so they can feel wanted and accepted?

gop_forever, yeah right....my daughter graduated with straight "A''s" and won a 65 thousand dollar scholarship and her mother and I work full time. You come up with the dumbest reasons. You must be the one who didn%u2019t finish school.

[eggy1620]

Gop_forever: you right wingers need your wives to spend all their time keeping you away from your children.

[eggy1620]

Gop_forever: you have just admitted that conservative republican men are horrible fathers.

[govwatch-2009]

Our public school system graduates students that can not pass these tests, what good will pretested them do?

[credibility2]

Unfortunately, today''s kids don''t have the attention span of even a fruit fly and they''re shipped off to school with little to no core or basic starting educational skills, because the lax parent now expects the schools to also raise their little darlings and teach them basics like their abc''s, counting, name, address, etc. I do think kids in school, regardless of their class level, should be given all types of tests to determine the intellectual capabilities or deficits of the kid. Unfortunately, for a kindergarten kid, more than thirty minutes of testing is too much since their little pea brains can''t concentrate for longer periods of time. Schools need to stop pandering and placating and go back to serious regimented instruction, even at the expense of offending both the parent and the kid. There''s a reason why are educational system is failing and it is because of the pandering and placating which is part and parcel of being PC. Inclusion is a crutch that inhibits and holds back. Time to raise the standards and levels of expectation.

[urboydigger]

Posted by Credibility2 at 11:32 AM : Aug 28, 2008

"because of the pandering and placating which is part and parcel of being PC."

Precisely.

gop_forever, you think you are the foremost authority on everything, which just makes you look stupid. She earned those "A''s".....out of 450 students; she graduated in the top 5. It was because of my standards she did so well. I bestowed in her the importance of her education, and what it will mean in the future. She is well a well rounded individual, and is looked up upon as an example of what students should be doing. If I weren''t a good person, your dumbfounded statements would get me angry, but like I said before, you sit on your fat duff, preaching to everyone how NOT to be.....

[questionnews]

gop_forever

Still hooking the suckers I see!
They seem to be biting pretty good today.
To those that respond to her posts all I can say is.
FISH ON!!

Questionnews, yeah the bltch got me good.....hook, line and sinker.... LOL

[hypnotoad72]

Better that than meth tests, I suppose.

[myopinion381]

"more than thirty minutes of testing is too much since their little pea brains" - Posted by Credibility2

I will assume that you have no children because anyone that has a child would never say that at kindergarten age, they have little pea brains!

[myopinion381]

I''m a little stumped here. Is GOP_forever male or female? May be that the jury is still out on that one.

[mandylou4u]

Kids are smart, but let them be kids! They only get one chance, then they have to be responsible adults. Just because you test them doesn''t prove if they are smart or not. They are FIVE!

[mandylou4u]

I used to teach kindergarden and the five year olds are pretty smart. Some of them were smarter than their parents, lol, but seriously, they do deserve a little more credit. I don''t think they should be tested this way until they are a little older. They must be able to play first. It is a balance of play and work. Most of my five year olds could button their own shirts and tie their own shoes. They could also read their parents like a favorite childrens story!

[myopinion381]

No, really...Kindergarten Kids are essentially PeaBrains! They can barely tie their shoes, can hardly write a decent paragraph, have trouble remembering their multiplication tables, and couldnt bait a hook or trap a Bar if their life depended on it! They ARE PeaBrains. Posted by DaVicar2 at 12:43 PM

DeVicar2: Children at the age of 5 (for the most part) are able to tie their shoes. That is if the parents take the time to teach them as I did with my child. Are you stating they are pea brains based on experience with your own children? Then again, maybe you don''t have any. I don''t agree with testing them at that age but people shouldn''t say that they don''t have any knowledge by that age.

[myopinion381]

I used to teach kindergarden and the five year olds are pretty smart. Some of them were smarter than their parents, lol, but seriously, they do deserve a little more credit. I don''''t think they should be tested this way until they are a little older. They must be able to play first. It is a balance of play and work. Most of my five year olds could button their own shirts and tie their own shoes. They could also read their parents like a favorite childrens story! Posted by mandylou4u at 12:47 PM

Thank you for posting your comment. I completely agree with you.

[mandylou4u]

thanx! Kids see everything you are doing, if you are acting like a peabrain, they probably will too, hehehe

[haoli25]

I''''m a little stumped here. Is GOP_forever male or female? May be that the jury is still out on that one. Posted by MyOpinion381


We are not even sure if it is animal, vegetable, or mineral yet! lol

[sistatee-2009]

Story problem:
If a dealer have a dime-bag, an a dude walk up an snatch it; how many rounds do your momma''s boyfriend hafta cap-off foe his nine run outa bullets?

[haoli25]

how many rounds do your momma''''s boyfriend hafta cap-off foe his nine run outa bullets? Posted by SistaTee



17? lmao

[mandylou4u]

And DaVicar2 wonders why some 5 year olds are peabrains. Just look at SistaTee''s comment. Maybe that will shed some light on why some 5 year olds don''t even get a chance period.

[viscor]

Sure great idea. Let''s start SAT prep in Kindergarten too. Sigh.

[mandylou4u]

How are you able to down five year olds when you can look around and some five year olds are prodigy''s? The reason they say a man may have a mind of a five year old is because they mean he is far behind his level. It doesn''t mean he is dumb. And most five year olds are cute, but that doesn''t mean they can''t be smart too. I am guessing you have never hung out with a five year old before. Let''s hope you are not a parent either. I would hate to have a parent that thought I was dumb or a "peabrain". Good luck to you

[mandylou4u]

I am also rarely confused when it comes to kids. I''ve been around them too long and have seen how smart they really are. Like I said before, some are even smarter than their parents. Most five year olds can learn something faster than an adult because they don''t have all the pressure on them.

[questionnews]

I''''m a little stumped here. Is GOP_forever male or female? May be that the jury is still out on that one.

Posted by MyOpinion381 at 12:35 PM : Aug 28, 2008

We may be forced to deal with GOP_forever like the Pat charactor on Saturday Night Live.

[mandylou4u]

Actually I work with math everyday now. And I was hoping you were smart enough to know I wasn''t talking about you being my parent. My parents were much more loving than you seem to be.

[myopinion381]

I''''''''m a little stumped here. Is GOP_forever male or female? May be that the jury is still out on that one. Posted by MyOpinion381

We are not even sure if it is animal, vegetable, or mineral yet! lol. Posted by haoli25 at 12:56 PM

Thanks for my laugh for the day. Only problem is people are wondering what I''m laughing at. Oh well, let they wonder.

[displeased]

Sure great idea. Let''''s start SAT prep in Kindergarten too. Sigh.
Posted by viscor

The earlier the better.

[displeased]

I''''''''''''''''m a little stumped here. Is GOP_forever male or female? May be that the jury is still out on that one. Posted by MyOpinion381


GOP_forever is a genderqueer who rode the short bus to school.

[barbaram99]

i am poor with numbers. Should they learn their numbers yes.Math is every where. So I think if they learn to court,print their name,learn their letters. It seems all the adults care is tests so they can look down on the ones that in their eye..dumb.Learning should be fun and I don''t mean force them into a mindset where they must complete with each other. That is how I see the school system going.going.

[MIpapaof4]

Let us see if Bush and Cheney can pass that one. I bet not. They''re more corrupt than Sadaam was.

[imperfexshun]

So ridiculous. Teachers spend their time testing, not teaching. School systems are forcing concepts on kids before they are ready, e.g., in Kdg., the kids were taught to "print" with a slant & little curls on letters to prepare them for cursive when they could barely draw a line. My grandson didn''t learn block printing & his printing is awful. In 1st grade, the teacher said she had no idea how to teach the barter system to 6-year-olds as required. In 2nd & now in 3rd, they changed the math so an equation is a "number model"; & things like 12 tally marks, the word ''dozen'', 6+8-2, 6 6, 15-3, etc. are all "names" for the number 12. They draw pictures of meat grinders ("numbers in, answer out"). They use triangles with numbers such as 15, 7, & 8 on them with both a & - in the middle, so you would take the 15 & subtract 7 to get 8; but if you use the instead, their little theory doesn''t work (i.e., 15 7=8). In spelling, the term "alphabetical order" doesn''t exist--it''s ABC order. Why don''t they just teach the kids their 3 R''s by using methods, common terms, & common sense the way they used to teach through the ages instead of trying to reinvent the wheel? Since there''s no discipline in school & every child who acts up is labeled ADD/ADHD, they don''t put "Johnny''s" desk in the corner or in front near the teacher''s desk when he acts up because they might hurt his feelings--oh wait, there are no corners or front because the desks are arranged helter-skelter.

imperfexshun, you have just hit the nail square on the head....WAY TO GO!! I totally agree with the re-inventing the wheel analogy. GREAT EXAMPLES TOO!!!!

[foreducation]

These terms--educate, school, test--have been grossly abused. What do we mean by "educate," "school," and "test"? According to OED (Oxford English Dictionary), etymologically,

1) educate: to rear, to bring up (children).
2) School: leisure, hence employment of leisure, study,...
3) TEST: To subject (gold or silver) to a process of separation and refining in a test or cupel; to assay.

I do believe the majority of five-years-old are a joy to teach than their older counterparts, with due respect to both. Guess you all know why.

My recommendation(?)

The five-year-olds need to get organized in a union and make a 5ySAT for their (school and political) administrators ...Just try hand-painting, some math, foreign languages, and nursery songs. Those who fail will be detained at their classroom when school is over.

[usclimey]

There are too many tests in schools as it is. As for testing 5-year-olds - good luck. You can''t keep a 5-year old still doing something he wants to do for 90 minutes.

BTW gop_forever - I''m pretty sure is a female who showed up first about 3 months ago as gopsoccermom. Same troll-like attitude, same style.

[imperfexshun]

Thank you mitchoncbs.
-----------------------------------
By the way, if the math examples I used seem confusing, it appears the "plus symbols" were eliminated (at least when I refreshed my screen, they were gone) so if you see 6 6 or 15 7=8, it should have been 6 plus 6 and 15 plus 7=8.

[deacon20081]

Another reason to wonder what happened to common sense in New York.

[loyalto1]

Why after all these years are we still trying to figure out how to solve the education problem? The future seems dim to me! ITS ALL ABOUT PARENTING AMERICA!!!

[eggy1620]

If standardized testing had been norm 40 years ago, we would not have our current president in office. He would have been weeded out long before causing any problems.

[sharednotion]

90 minutes seems way too long to expect 5-year-olds to take a written test. Maybe instead, a MUCH briefer test, just to learn more about what is known & understood by today''s American 5-year-olds. (I understand that today''s kindergarten is not like it was when I went to kindergarten in the early 1960''s, which consisted basically of some games, milk & cookies, and ending the school "day" by noon; but, just HOW complex & academic should we try to make today''s 5-year-olds?)

[indianaman96]

why don''t we look at the teaching programs used at the Elite Super Rich schools, and use what they do for the poor. Obviously what ever these private schools do works. That way, there is no educational divide. Remember Bush and John Kerry went to the same college, are in the same Secret Society, both have lots of money, and believe me, they don''t want more people with money. Why else spend (How many billion?) on killing gods children (Bush''s jesus teaches not to kill) and we keep cutting back educational spending yet expect more and more from kids? If the administration really had america''s future in mind, our children''s education would be a priority.

[indianaman96]

why don''t we look at the teaching programs used at the Elite Super Rich schools, and use what they do for the poor. Obviously what ever these private schools do works. That way, there is no educational divide. Remember Bush and John Kerry went to the same college, are in the same Secret Society, both have lots of money, and believe me, they don''t want more people with money. Why else spend (How many billion?) on killing gods children (Bush''s jesus teaches not to kill) and we keep cutting back educational spending yet expect more and more from kids? If the administration really had america''s future in mind, our children''s education would be a priority.

[indianaman96]

why don''t we look at the teaching programs used at the Elite Super Rich schools, and use what they do for the poor. Obviously what ever these private schools do works. That way, there is no educational divide. Remember Bush and John Kerry went to the same college, are in the same Secret Society, both have lots of money, and believe me, they don''t want more people with money. Why else spend (How many billion?) on killing gods children (Bush''s jesus teaches not to kill) and we keep cutting back educational spending yet expect more and more from kids? If the administration really had america''s future in mind, our children''s education would be a priority.

[indianaman96]

why don''t we look at the teaching programs used at the Elite Super Rich schools, and use what they do for the poor. Obviously what ever these private schools do works. That way, there is no educational divide. Remember Bush and John Kerry went to the same college, are in the same Secret Society, both have lots of money, and believe me, they don''t want more people with money. Why else spend (How many billion?) on killing gods children (Bush''s jesus teaches not to kill) and we keep cutting back educational spending yet expect more and more from kids? If the administration really had america''s future in mind, our children''s education would be a priority.

[indianaman96]

real quick
1. bush and john kerry both went to private school
2. both went to same college
3. both belong to same secret society
4. both don''t want you to have money
5. both are supposedly very intelligent

Why then don''t we just examine the teaching techniques used at the Elite Super Rich schools and implement them into public schools, obviously they work, or the Elite Super Rich wouldn''t send their kids there.

[indianaman96]

real quick
1. bush and john kerry both went to private school
2. both went to same college
3. both belong to same secret society
4. both don''t want you to have money
5. both are supposedly very intelligent

Why then don''t we just examine the teaching techniques used at the Elite Super Rich schools and implement them into public schools, obviously they work, or the Elite Super Rich wouldn''t send their kids there.