Proposed Terrorist Rules Worry Senators

Some Say FBI Rules Could Target Innocent People Based On Race, Religion

(AP)  Proposed rules to help the FBI catch terrorists could lead to innocent Americans being spied upon by government agents or informants "all without any basis for suspicion," a group of Democratic senators said Wednesday.

The rules, known as the attorney general guidelines, have not been approved or even publicly released yet, but four Democrats joined a growing chorus of lawmakers raising concerns after being briefed on what the guidelines say.

Among their fears: Americans could be targeted in part based on their race, ethnicity or religion - or free speech activities protected by the Constitution.

"As you know, attorney general guidelines were first implemented in the wake of the FBI abuses of the 1960s and 1970s, and serve as one of the most important bulwarks against future abuses," the senators said in a letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey.

The four Democrats - Sens. Dick Durbin of Illinois, Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island - indicated they remained concerned even after assurances from officials during the Justice Department briefings.

The lawmakers asked Mukasey to hold off finalizing the rules to allow a public review.

"Given the importance of these guidelines, providing a period of time for public comment would be a reasonable and responsible way to move forward and achieve the best possible end result," the Democrats wrote.

Earlier this week, Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and the panel's top Republican, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, also called for delaying the guidelines.

Justice spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the department will review the requests. Citing remarks earlier by Mukasey about the new rules, the spokesman said an investigation would not be opened based solely on a person's race, ethnicity or religion.

"The guidelines will require all activities to have a valid purpose," Roehrkasse said, adding that the rules will "include robust and effective oversight measures."

The guidelines are expected to be finalized next week. They do not require congressional approval.

First reported last month by The Associated Press, the rules are intended to update policies governing investigations as the FBI shifts from a traditional crime-fighting agency to one whose top priority is protecting the United States from terrorist attacks.

Currently, the FBI must have evidence or allegations of wrongdoing before opening an investigation of U.S. citizens or legal residents from other countries. As described by some law enforcement officials, the new policy would let agents open preliminary terrorism investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, were deemed suspicious.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the rules, said factors that could trigger an inquiry would include travel to regions of the world known for terrorist activity and access to weapons or military training, along with the person's race or ethnicity.

Following their briefings, the four Democrats said the guidelines would:

Let the FBI use "a variety of intrusive investigative techniques" with no evidence of possible wrongdoing. The techniques could include: long-term FBI surveillance, interviewing neighbors and work-mates, recruiting informants and searching commercial databases for information on people "all without any basis for suspicion."

"We are particularly concerned that the draft guidelines might permit an innocent American to be subjected to such intrusive surveillance based in part on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, or on protected First Amendment activities," the senators wrote.

Allow the government to collect foreign intelligence information inside the United States without current legal protections for U.S. citizens or legal residents. The senators noted that the broad term "foreign intelligence" would cover any information relating to the activities of a foreign government, organization or person.

Allow the information gathered to be broadly shared among government agencies. "We have serious questions about the scope of information sharing as it relates to U.S. persons who are under no suspicion of wrongdoing," the senators wrote.

[cdfoxtrot2]

Welcome to the United Police States of Amerika

[rosieod4prez]

Don''t you just love it when liberals speak up to help someone. As long as it doesn''t cost or endanger them personally, they don''t care.

I wish Sens. *** Durbin of Illinois, Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island has to hold a confernence with the families of the 3000 that lost their lives to explain why they weren''t going to support the FBI to catch terrorists.


I wonder if those 3000 families feel this law is infringing on their civil liberities.

Would they trade the chance that they ''might be spied upon'' to get their loved ones back ?

[rosieod4prez]

"Welcome to the United Police States of Amerika - Posted by cdfoxtrot2





Spoken like the paranoid far left idiot he is.

[tootoo68]

You whiney , gutless liberals will be the FIRST to look to our goverment to save your pitifull ***** when the s--t hits the fan.. Get some balls and join the military and become a worhtwhile human being. I''ve seen you cowards all my life. that live behind the true heros that protect your miserable souls. I hope the proud Americans buried all over the world could meet you some day, you''ll know what HELL means..They''ll teach you what being a coward is all about.. Rot in Hell gutless ones''..You won''t be meeting any of these Heros there...

[afmca]

It is amazing how many of the conservatives in America resemble Hitler''s Brown shirts. Their racism and bigotry is so easy manipulated by immoral, power driven egomaniacs. Stalin and Mao would have been amazed how a little terror emasculates the American conservative. Why go to the expense of building nuclear weapons - a little terror has those brave neo-cons running for cover. America needs to get over 9-11. Yes innocent people died and it was tragic but over the long haul the numbers that died and the damage done was minimal. It has been 7 years and we still get manipulated. It is over and we have to stop allowing the neo-cons to use the collective fear of the far right to cancel out the Constitution. Other countries have suffered far worse and have kept their basic rights intact. The Repub party plays on this fear because they have nothing positive to offer and their lemmings do not question. BinLaden must be laughing in his cave on the basic cowardice of the American public. He does not even have to do another terror attack, the Republican Party is doing more damage than another bombing ever could do.

[afmca]

Unfortunately the Democratic Senators fwill buckle just as they have done every time before. The Repubs will vote yes to support their failed president over the good of the country. They will hold their press conferences and speak of how they will fight this to the end and then they will let the neo-con propaganda machine (i.e Fox News) scare them into debasing the Constitution once again.

[deacon20081]

It is amazing how many of the conservatives in America resemble Hitler''''s Brown shirts. Their racism and bigotry is so easy manipulated by immoral, power driven egomaniacs. Stalin and Mao would have been amazed how a little terror emasculates the American conservative. Why go to the expense of building nuclear weapons - a little terror has those brave neo-cons running for cover. America needs to get over 9-11. Yes innocent people died and it was tragic but over the long haul the numbers that died and the damage done was minimal. It has been 7 years and we still get manipulated. It is over and we have to stop allowing the neo-cons to use the collective fear of the far right to cancel out the Constitution. Other countries have suffered far worse and have kept their basic rights intact. The Repub party plays on this fear because they have nothing positive to offer and their lemmings do not question. BinLaden must be laughing in his cave on the basic cowardice of the American public. He does not even have to do another terror attack, the Republican Party is doing more damage than another bombing ever could do.
Posted by afmca
---------------------------------------------
Good Post and worth repeating.

[deacon20081]

The Constitution is just a damnnn piece of paper....... right Dubya?

[notfooled]

In recent remarks, Bush said the war on terror "cannot be won, however if we treat terrorism primarily as a matter of law enforcement. Law enforcement is an essential part of our strategy but our strategy cannot be limited to law enforcement alone."

These guidelines are part of the "forever war" and their forever need to take our freedoms in the name of protecting us strategy, where they bleed the citizens of America of their money and funnel it to the military industrial complex / police state thus producing Concentration Camp America.

They want us to be afraid of even one person being able to cause great harm on the rest of us to justify turning our country into a Big Brother is watching police state.

The true terrorists are the Bush/Cheney/Saudia crime syndicate and their Rethuglican followers that are responsible for the 911 black ops twin-tower demolition missions, including the anthrax attacks.

We must hold war crime trials against this administration for the genocide of more than a half million senseless deaths in the mideast caused by the 962 public lies (wmd, wmd, the sky is falling)for the oil and military industrial profits and to usher in their version of 1984.

If you support these criminals, you are supporting terrorism.

Get ready for the witch hunts.

[smurfcrusher]

Marching forward with the Police State...

[allurfears]

Stalin and Mao would have been amazed how a little terror emasculates the American conservative. Why go to the expense of building nuclear weapons - a little terror has those brave neo-cons running for cover.

Posted by afmca at 07:32 PM : Aug 20, 2008
------

Not Really. They would be amazed to see that their techniques for creating a totalitarian state are alive and well in the Neo-republican party in the U.S.A.

"The easiest way to gain control of a population is to carry out acts of terror. [The public] will clamor for such laws if their personal security is threatened".- Joseph Stalin

Or as our current Little Dictator said:

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there''s no question about it." G.W. Bush
Source: Business Week Online, "A Gentleman''s "C" for W," Richard S. Dunham, July 30, 2001

[allurfears]

Posted by tootoo68 at 07:30 PM : Aug 20, 2008
---

Those heroes who you hide behind as you spew your hateful un-American propaganda FOUGHT FOR OUR LIBERTIES. They did not fight to see those liberties taken away by a bunch of cowards who never saw combat (Bush, Cheney, and every neocon authoritarian war chickenhawk Republican in power).

I am 100% confident that those who died for our liberties would be the FIRST in line to defend this country against leaders who incite fear to destroy our Constitution and way of life in the name of "security".

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you''''re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."
-- Dwight Eisenhower

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
- Abraham Lincoln

[allurfears]

Marching forward with the Police State...

Posted by smurfcrusher at 08:55 PM : Aug 20, 2008
-------

Yes we are- little by little until it is too late to stop it. Those who defend the direction we are heading will one day wake up. Let''s hope it is not too late.

"As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas

[allurfears]

Let us first apply universal government surveillance to these government functionaries who would betray America and throw away our liberty. Let us see just how they find their lives made better by the constant surveillance. Let''s just see what pure lives they follow. Then let the government act upon what small (LMAO) imperfections it finds in their lives. Hey- we could eliminate 90% of these traitors!

"There is no man so good, who, were he to submit all his thoughts and actions to the laws, would not deserve hanging ten times in his life."
Michel de Montaigne

God may forgive, but government does not.

[allurfears]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

For 219 years the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America has stood. Now Bush and his traitors want to "redefine" what "The right of the people to be secure..." and "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause ..." mean.

Today, Bush and McCain push for unlimited Presidential power under the concept of "unitary executive"- code for the "KING" they dream of. Their "King" has unlimited power: "State Secrets" to hide their nefarious activities, warrantless surveillance of all Americans, secret DOJ "memos" claiming Bush need not follow the law or Constitution, refusal of oversight, using tax $ to push their political power agenda, suppressing dissent, no accountability, shredding Habeas Corpus for Americans, claiming no limits on their power in an endless "wartime", and more.

Bush and his "Police State" CLONE McCain are apostates of American Principle and Liberty. Their loyalty is only to their own power and party orthodoxy. They are the lowest kind of traitors and deserve the punishment of traitors. Jury and Firing Squad volunteers will be welcome...

[deacon20081]

Thank the Democrats for folding on FISA and the Patriot Act. Get ready for a civil war if any Administration attempts to make the USA a Police State.

The Senate had better Impeach NOW!

[gramto8]

From an article found at:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/03/national/main4229431.shtml

The Justice Department is considering letting the FBI investigate Americans without any evidence of wrongdoing, relying instead on a terrorist profile that could single out Muslims, Arabs or other racial and ethnic groups.


Although President Bush has disavowed targeting suspects based on their race or ethnicity, the new rules would allow the FBI to consider those factors among a number of traits that could trigger a national security investigation.

[allurfears]

Thank the Democrats for folding on FISA and the Patriot Act. Get ready for a civil war if any Administration attempts to make the USA a Police State.

Posted by deacon20081 at 09:56 PM : Aug 20, 2008
----------

The Dems are the worst kind of enablers. They talk about liberty but sit on their hands when it comes to doing something to defend liberty against the Republican apostates of liberty.

The problem with stopping the coming American Police State is that it will come in little pieces- bit by bit.

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedoms of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." -- James Madison

There will be reasons and rationalizations that many Americans will accepts without seeing the overall picture.

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

The cowards who want safety over liberty will applaud. True patriots will cringe. Only if Americans wake up in time can we stop what Bush started and McCain wants to continue.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
- Abraham Lincoln

[allurfears]

When the government is the repository for every detail of your life, every minor failing, every preference and interest, every bit about your family and friends, every tidbit about your private life- then you will know fear. However, by then it will be too late to do anything about it. This will be America in name only.

"When The People Fear The Government, There Is Tyranny; When The Government Fears The People, There Is Liberty. " -- Thomas Jefferson

[allurfears]

"The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live - did live, from habit that became instinct - in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and except in darkness, every movement scrutinised."
George Orwell, "1984"

"It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself%u2014anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face ... was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime ..."
George Orwell, "1984"

[winslowe1]

The Muslims sure hope the Democrats win the elections.

[tootall10142]

Do you remember back in 1936? a small framed man of little known origin stated a small party and killed millions. Well his watch dogs were called KGB.Now they call it terrorist watch and recognition offices.You can dress that snake any way you want and you still have republican in disguise.

[tootall10142]

yOU ARE RIGHT I DID GET THE DATES WRONG BUT IM FAR FROM A IDIOT.I AM A VETERAN AND ENJOY GOING TO THE MAIL BOX AND GETTING YOUR TAX MONEY.THANK YOU AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.BY THE WAY WHY ARENT YOU AT WORK IM EXPECTING A RAISE AND NEED ALL OF YOUR INPUT TO MAKE SURE THE CHECK CLEARS.

[figuy30]

When we have the love of God in our hearts and kindness towards others, then we will not have to worry about anyone watching us. Bad manners corrupt good morals. We have the best government on earth here in the U.S. which, despite negatives, has always protected our freedoms collectively and individually. We must continue to elect and support individuals of high moral character upon whom we can depend and whose lives are beyond reproach.

[shaggydo-2009]

We must continue to elect and support individuals of high moral character upon whom we can depend and whose lives are beyond reproach.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by figuy30 at 10:37 AM : Aug 21, 2008

If only we had used this guideline before the bush cheney fascist regime gained power and they collectively started stomping on what use to be our constitutional rights and freedoms.

[barbaram99]

Yes read the book 1984 on talking book years ago..I was appalled as it hinded one world govt.. Can it happen yes if allowed. I hated the book. Yer just subhuman in the book.

[oldpilot954]

This is one case where I tend to side with the democrats. I am concerned about the loss of personal freedom in the USA. I see too many similarities in DHS to those other countries of history where dictators abused the citizenry.

[bobnjersey]

[By comparison to what other countries would do, or what we would have done 50 years ago, our response has been VERY mild.]
[Posted by clgl_fubar at 09:22 AM : Aug 21, 2008]

until they use these rules against you ... then you''ll have a different opinion.