Should Votes Of Dead People Be Counted?

State Laws Split Between Tallying And Dumping Ballots Of Those Who Die Before Election Day

(AP)  If you vote by mail, but die before Election Day, does your vote count? It depends on where you lived.

Oregon counts ballots no matter what happens to the voter. So does Florida. But in South Dakota, if you die before the election, so does your vote.

Increasingly popular mail-in ballots mean voters can now choose candidates up to 60 days before an election, raising new questions about an age-old phenomenon normally associated with chicanery in places like Chicago: What should be done with the ballots of the recently dead?

Laws in at least a dozen states are evenly split between tallying and dumping the votes. No one keeps records on how often such deaths occur.

Yet in this year's contentious campaign, the right of every American to a counted ballot has become a rallying cry - even if the voter dies before the tallying starts.

Take the case of Florence Steen, an ailing 88-year-old grandmother born before women had the right to vote. One of her last wishes was to vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton. She wanted to be part of history, said her daughter Kathy Krause.

Steen was confined to a hospice bed in Rapid City, S.D., when she was brought an absentee ballot weeks before the June 3 primary. She studied it a long time, then marked her choice with such determination her daughter feared she would poke through the paper.

Steen died on Mother's Day. With a heavy heart, her daughter took the ballot and dropped it in a mailbox. "In my mind, her vote counted," Krause said. "My mother believed she had voted for a woman to be president."

But the women down at the county courthouse told Krause the ballot had to be tossed because state law declared a voter must be alive on Election Day.

So Krause passed that word to the Clinton campaign. And Clinton drew great applause when she told the story in her concession speech four days after the South Dakota primary.

"It's just a goofy law, and it needs to be changed," said Krause, who plans to lobby state legislators to reverse that statute just as soon as her grief eases.

"What about the soldiers in Iraq? What if they vote and they're killed in action, God forbid? Should we take away their vote because they died for their country?"

There are no military standards governing voting by soldiers. Rather, their mailed-in ballots are counted at the individual election districts where they are registered to vote. But like civilian votes, no one keeps track of whether the ballots of soldiers are thrown out because they died after casting them.

"No one can tell you that," said Susan Dzieduszycka-Suinat, head of the Overseas Voting Foundation in Munich. "Every single election jurisdiction can do it the way it wants. And there are more than 7,000 of them."

Thirty-one states allow some form of early voting.

Ballots cast by the dead are usually the focus of fraud allegations, as happened in Washington's extremely tight 2004 gubernatorial race, decided by a margin of 129 votes out of 3 million cast. More than a dozen ballots were linked to dead people.

But some advocates say legitimate, mail-in votes from people who die before Election Day should be counted, particularly in rural elections, where races can hang on a handful of votes.

"In Montana, there have been several legislative seats decided by one, two, three votes," said Tim Storey of the National Conference of State Legislatures, an organization that recently looked at 12 mostly Western states and found that half have no rules governing ballots of the deceased.

Those remaining states - Colorado, Idaho, Minnesota and Utah - demand that such ballots be rejected, leaving Montana and Oregon as the only states that count them.

South Dakota Secretary of State Chris Nelson said he doesn't understand why a dead person's vote should be counted.

"In my mind, it's clear," Nelson said. "You have to be a qualified voter on Election Day. I don't know how someone can say you're a qualified voter if you're deceased."

Pam Smith, director of the advocacy group Verified Voting, disagrees: "By definition, the day you cast a ballot is Election Day. That's it."

Mail-in ballots arrived in record numbers during this year's protracted primary season.

In California's San Diego County, for example, 45 percent of the presidential vote arrived by mail. Similar numbers surfaced across the country. Election experts have predicted that as many as 25 percent of voters will vote by mail in November.

Dan Seligson, an editor at electionline.org, a voter watchdog organization, said ballots from the recently deceased could affect the contentious presidential showdown between Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain.

"It could be a great contribution to any legal challenge," he said. "That's what happened in 2000, when we had this perfect storm of questions about ballot counts, ballot designs, and dead voters."

[toldyouso12]

We worry about dead people''''s votes; legal citizen''''s votes but we don''''t worry about the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants'''' votes. Let the dead people vote good lord, they''''ve earned the right to have their last wishes heard.

Posted by standlee5 at 09:32 PM : Jul 25, 2008


Nope. Since they are dead, they should have no say and no right to influence the government the rest of us will be stuck with. You never know when some of them might just want to give us the proverbial "finger" by sticking us with the most svcky government in history.

If they have no vested interest and will be impacted by it--they should have no say. LOL

[standlee5]

We worry about dead people''s votes; legal citizen''s votes but we don''t worry about the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants'' votes. Let the dead people vote good lord, they''ve earned the right to have their last wishes heard.

[libsluv2spit]

technically,, the Democrats would be in deep doodoo if we clean up our voting system..

[libsluv2spit]

Sen. Mitch McConnell (R.-Ky.) castigated his Democratic colleagues by reminding them of the necessity of voter reform. "There are countless examples of dead people voting, dogs voting, and people voting multiple times. Nearly all these instances of voter fraud have one thing in common: They were perpetrated through lax mail-in registration requirements."

Sen. Frank Murkowski (R.-Alaska) outlined specific problems in St. Louis during election 2000. "Over 30,000 illegitimate voters were added to voter registrations in the 2000 presidential election in St. Louis, Mo. Over 5,000 ilegal ballots were cast in the 2000 presidential election in Florida by individuals who were not U.S. citizens and not permitted to vote. One individual in Missouri actually voted 47 times-and was not even prosecuted!"

Sen. Gordon Smith (Ore.) voted against the tabling motion because there was no special provision for his state, which receives all ballots by mail. Both parties agree that some accommodation needs to be made for Oregon and Washington, which also heavily uses voting by mail.

[libsluv2spit]

On Feb. 27, 2002, by a vote of 46 to 51, Senate Democrats defeated a motion to table (kill) the Schumer amendment to the bill that the previous day the Senate had unanimously renamed the Martin Luther King, Jr. Equal Protection of Voting Rights Act of 2001 (S 565). The bill, spawned by the 2000 Florida ballot dispute, supposedly would make the presidential voting system run more smoothly by imposing new federal regulations and spending federal money to help finance new voting equipment

The amendment would have stripped from the bill a Republican-backed provision to reduce voter fraud by requiring first-time voters who register to vote by mail to prove photo IDs or other proof of residence before being allowed to vote. Instead, Schumer would allow just signature comparisons at the polling place.

[libsluv2spit]

Wednesday, October 20, 2004
Thousands of new-voter cards in Ohio undeliverable


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By Jim Siegel
Enquirer Columbus Bureau


COLUMBUS - Thousands of cards mailed by county election boards to newly registered voters in Hamilton County and throughout the state are being returned because the people can''t be found.

John Williams, director of the Hamilton County Board of Elections, said the situation indicates that there might not be as many new voters as some expect in a state deemed crucial in the presidential election.

Ohio Republican Party Chairman Robert Bennett on Tuesday said it''s a result of statewide registration fraud conducted by independent groups that support Democratic candidates.

"By most accounts, their work can only be considered sloppy, haphazard and, in some cases, downright illegal," Bennett said, noting that the state party plans to take out full-page ads in Ohio newspapers encouraging citizens to stop voter fraud.

Democratic Party spokesman Dan Trevas said the fraud uncovered in Ohio equates to "minor errors" when viewed in the bigger picture.

[libsluv2spit]

Democrats around the country are applauding the Fulton County (GA) Superior Court ruling that blocks Georgia%u2019s voter ID law.

This leaves the door wide open for Democrats to continue to perpetrate fraud on the electoral system.

By successfully defeating a bill that would require legitimate voters actually show proof of identification, they can continue to receive votes from illegal aliens, dead people and people voting multiple times.

Many groups on the Left have organized against this bill, claiming that proof of identification to vote is harmful to the poor, the elderly and minorities.

During a day of testimony before Murphy issued his decision, American Civil Liberties Union attorney Neil Bradley argued that making voters go to county registrar%u2019s offices to get a required ID was an inconvenience that did nothing to address fraud at the ballot box.

What he meant to say was it did everything to address fraud at the ballot box and thus was bad for liberals.

[libsluv2spit]

if dead people cant vote..then how would the DNC win elections?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/206969_dead07.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/09/dead-voters-still-showing-up-on-election-records-puzzling-officials/

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/11/i_see_dead_peop.html

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-js031401.html

[libsluv2spit]

Clinton Proposes Election Holiday and Ex-Felon Voting
James Joyner | Friday, February 18, 2005

Sen. Clinton pushes for voting holiday (SPI)

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, a possible White House candidate in 2008, joined 2004 nominee John Kerry and other Democrats Thursday in urging that Election Day be made a federal holiday to encourage voting. She also pushed for legislation that would allow all ex-felons to vote.

Standing with Massachusetts Sen. Kerry and other Democrats who had alleged voting irregularities in the 2004 contest, Clinton said, %u201COnce again we had a federal election that demonstrates we have a long way to go.%u201D


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/02/sen_clinton_proposes_ex-felon_voting_with_day_off/

[libsluv2spit]

Why can''''t criminals vote? One criminal should be able to vote for another,even if his connections save him from charges.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by babooph at 06:09 PM : Jul 25, 2008
+ report abuse

************

you know nancy pelosi and john kerry made that same argument last 2004

[babooph]

Why can''t criminals vote? One criminal should be able to vote for another,even if his connections save him from charges.

[barbaram99]

NO NO NO.THE DEAD HAS NO RIGHTS. THE PEOPLE WHO FILE IN A DEAD PERSON''S NAME KNOW BETTER.

[barbaram99]

toldyouso,yer right. When I did go to the poll I have ask for their help in filling my ballot. In WA state the inmates can''t vote. It stands to reason the illiegals can''t vote. The Dead can''t vote. If a voter dies then the state should be told. I mail my ballot in before the day so that they have it to cound as the mail is slow.

[bloogirl-2009]

I guess most folks believe and/or hope that they will be alive when they cast these votes. If God would only let us know when we are going to die, then we wouldn''t inconvenience the government, the company or anyone else.

[toldyouso12]

if the vote doesn''''t count until election day, then don''''t allow absentee votes. these folks need to make up their minds. can''''t have it both ways.

Posted by bloogirl at 08:46 AM : Jul 25, 2008


The votes are not supposed to be opened or counted before the actual election date. In many states, the absentee ballots are the last ones opened and counted--if there are any questions or concerns that they are fraudulent, the voter must be available to clear that up. Absentee voting does not mean early voting--it means casting your vote by mail because you will not be available on election day--but it is understood that the vote cannot be opened or read or counted until Election day.

[toldyouso12]

Since they legally voted when they were still alive their vote should count.

Posted by GrammaWhamma at 06:52 PM : Jul 24, 2008


but that vote does not become valid until Election day. Most states will not even open or count it until that date. Because it is a write in vote, anyone could scan the voter card and simply change the vote marked--if there was a question--no one could answer as the voter would be dead.

The other main reason dead people can''t and should not vote besides fraud, is that elections are to effect the lives of those still alive--we do not give votes to the dead because the dead have no rights--not even the right to vote. It''s sort of like getting a new credit card by mail. It goes out but is not "activated" until validated by a phone call from the right address and certain questions answered. Even though someone might find and try to use the card--only if it is in the right place, at the right time, with the right person, will the card truly become valid.

Same is true here--the right venue is the voting card, the right person must be able to be verified, and the right time is Election day. If even one of the criteria can''t be met--that vote--like that credit card cannot be activated and therefore is DOA.

[toldyouso12]

Not alive on election day--NO vote. I think an exception could be made if people could vote absentee valid electronically and have their identity confirmed at the time of voting--maybe, if people voted and had their visage on a web-cam at the same time, declaring they were voting a that moment--otherwise anyone committing id theft could also steal or defraud the vote --even via computer.

[toldyouso12]

During the primary, polls showed that many of the voters in California switched their voting allegiance from HRC to Obama. IN fact, so many switched, that news pundits and pollsters said that if California was allowed to re-do its primary, Obama would win.

This is one of the reasons votes only should count on election day--because people can change their minds.

The other reason is very simple--dead people cannot confirm their vote--this means people can easily switch or change a dead persons ballot and none could contest it Because the real voter would be dead.

Absentee ballots are distributed ahead of time, but often, they are not counted or opened until election day. Since they are write in ballots, they often are counted last. People who vote in any way except in person, must be available on election day to confirm that vote if it is challenged. Dead people can''t do that.

Of course, the HRC crowd wants the dead woman''s vote to count--but we doubt there would be even a peep from them, had that woman voted for Obama. Did she really vote for HRC? We will NEVER, EVER know. Because votes are private things--and we are left only with hearsay and the words of her daughter as to how she really voted--The actual voter can''t confirm anything. We do not leave confirmation of votes to others--because it is too easy for people to lie for their own reasons--even relatives.

[minnick8-2009]

If an absentee voter dies before the election,the vote should be thrown out. However, who tracks That?

[bloogirl-2009]

the vote should count if it''s legal to cast it. if you go to the poll and vote; walk out the door and get ran over by a truck - does your vote not count? how about our soldiers? if the vote doesn''t count until election day, then don''t allow absentee votes. these folks need to make up their minds. can''t have it both ways.