Judge Bars Some Bin Laden Driver Evidence

War Crimes Judge Says Former Driver Was Subjected To "Highly Coercive" Conditions At Afghan Base

(CBS/AP)  The judge in the first American war crimes trial since World War II barred evidence on Monday that interrogators obtained from Osama bin Laden's driver, ruling he was subjected to "highly coercive" conditions in Afghanistan.

But Judge Keith Allred, a Navy captain, left the door open for the prosecution to use statements Salim Hamdan made at Guantanamo, despite defense claims that all of his statements were tainted by alleged abuse including sleep deprivation and solitary confinement.

Hamdan, who was captured at a roadblock in Afghanistan in November 2001, pleaded not guilty at the start of a trial that will be closely watched as the first full test of the Pentagon's system for prosecuting alleged terrorists. He faces a maximum life sentence if convicted of conspiracy and aiding terrorism.

The chief prosecutor for the tribunals, Army Col. Lawrence Morris, said the loss of some of Hamdan's statements will not keep the trial from going forward.

"It does not reduce my confidence in our ability fully to depict Mr. Hamdan's criminality," he told reporters. "We're fine."

The judge said the prosecution cannot use a series of interrogations at the Bagram air base and Panshir, Afghanistan, because of the "highly coercive environments and conditions under which they were made."

At Bagram, Hamdan says he was kept in isolation 24 hours a day with his hands and feet restrained, and armed soldiers prompted him to talk by kneeing him in the back. He says his captors at Panshir repeatedly tied him up, put a bag over his head and knocked him the ground.

Michael Berrigan, the deputy chief defense counsel, described the ruling as a major blow to the tribunal system that allows hearsay and evidence obtained through coercion.

"It's a very significant ruling because these prosecutions are built to make full advantage of statements obtained from detainees," he said.

A jury of six officers with one alternate was selected from a pool of 13 flown in from other U.S. bases over the weekend. Hamdan's lawyers succeeded in barring others, including one who had friends at the Pentagon at the time of the Sept. 11 attacks, and another who had been a key government witness as a student.

Monday marked the first time after years of pretrial hearings and legal challenges that any prisoner reached this stage of the tribunals.

For months his lawyers fought to delay the trial, arguing that military rules don't allow for a fair defense, CBS News correspondent Bob Orr reports.

The U.S. plans to prosecute about 80 Guantanamo prisoners, including the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and four alleged coconspirators.

Lawyers argue that enemy combatants like Hamdan, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others may not have complete access to witnesses or classified information that may help their defense. And questionable evidence, produced by harsh interrogations, may be used against them.

The legal advisor to the Military Commissions rejects the concerns, Orr reports.

Hamdan appeared to go along with the process despite earlier threats to boycott. The Yemeni with a fourth-grade education appeared to cooperate fully with his Pentagon-appointed military lawyer, whispering in his ear during the questioning of potential jurors.

"Mr. Hamdan expressed great interest in this," said Charles Swift, one of his civilian attorneys.

In addition to the other interrogations, the judge said he would throw out statements whenever a government witness is unavailable to vouch for the questioners' tactics. He also withheld a ruling on a key interrogation at Guantanamo in May 2003 until defense lawyers can review roughly 600 pages of confinement records provided by the government on Sunday night.

Hamdan has been held at Guantanamo since May 2002. A challenge filed by his lawyers resulted in a 2006 Supreme Court ruling striking down the original rules for the military tribunals. Congress and President Bush responded with new rules, the Military Commissions Act.

Hamdan met bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1996 and began working on his farm before winning a promotion as his driver.

Defense lawyers say he only kept the job for the $200-a-month salary. But prosecutors allege he was a personal driver and bodyguard of the al Qaeda leader. They say he transported weapons for the Taliban and helped bin Laden escape U.S. retribution following the Sept. 11 attacks.

[feelfree4u]

The Bush League global crime network gets spanked once again by the rule of law. This is encouraging.

Torturing people is a very serious crime. Holding people for years and abusing them without ever charging them with a crime is a disgrace to the stated ideals of the United States and to civilized people everywhere.

Even if this man has committed a crime, which I seriously doubt, his shameful treatment leaves us with no legitimate option but to apologize to him and release him.

The only terrorists, torturers, and mass-murderers that we need concern ourselves with are the ones that have seized control of our Federal Government and who are destroying and plundering our nation.

All other current threats are insignificant by comparison.

Bush/Cheney for Prison in 2008!!!

[ajayvee]

I have been reading comments here, there and everywhere and I find such hatred for President Bush. Deserved or not is besides the point; it is there. Is it possible that he is so completely shielded from newspapers, radio, television that he really is not aware of this animosity? I can see clearly now that this hatred is so intertwined with a frustration arising from the general public realization that even after Mr. Bush leaves office, there is no court in the land, or in the world, for that matter, that can do anything to him. And I worry about what could possibly be on the horizon for Mr. Bush when he is no longer head of state and protected by a thousand soldiers and bodyguards every time he goes for a cr*p. Our history has been darkened sufficiently over the last 8 years, it certainly does not need another black spot.

[smurfcrusher]

"War Crimes Judge Bars Afghanistan Evidence
Bin Laden''s Former Driver Was Subjected To "Highly Coercive" Conditions At Afghan Air Base"

Too bad King George lied about torture.

If he prohibited torture, as his Democratic colleagues suggested, we would be able to try and perhaps lock this guy up.

I guess this means we shouldn''t torture.

And yes, shipping prisoners off to places that torture, does count.

Friggin'' fools.

[smurfcrusher]

orange129 has been reported for SPAMming, in violation of Terms of Service.

[smurfcrusher]

ajayvee, I don''t know that there has been as hated a politician as George W. Bush in generations.

All richly deserved; especially given that it will take generations also to fix the destruction he has wreaked.

None of this would matter to him; he''s The Decider, God tells him what to do, or at least that hollow echo he hears in his thick skull that he interprets as such.

That''s why he calls the Constitution a "God- Da mned piece of paper!"

He doesn''t understand what it represents.... Not an opportunity to loot a country, but instead a way to govern to laws not people, to allow millions to benefit from the Enlightenment principles it was founded on.

Pearls before swine.

[smurfcrusher]

One of the "side effects" of torture that eludes this administration, is the fact that it doesn''t just cause the victim to suffer, but it devalues, and degrades the torturer as well.

It means that the terrorists have won a victory, from turning us from a country which believes in fairness and justice, to a place that believes the ends justifies the means.

Not only is torture ineffective, but it hands the moral high ground to the enemy, at least in their eyes (which matters, since that is what guides their behavior).

It serves as an honest and effective recruiting tool. What better than to be martyred by the enemy, and be cleansed by suffering, knowing that they are the unjust?

It disturbs me that this administration is so incompetent that all of this is like glass in a swimming pool.

Just because they can''t see it, doesn''t mean it won''t cut.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "George Bush & Dick_ Cheney should likewise be on trial for mass murder and war crimes."

Posted by tuckerndfw


Agreed, and great to see you!

[stn_sage]

I''ve noticed that to conservative posters on this board, this is a ''cut''n dry'' issue. That is, proceed to the hanging!

However, knowing as we do---or rather, as we should---this administration has a fantastic record of *** things up! So, before we hang this guy, let''s be damnn sure he committed the crime!

The USA has a tarnished enough reputation without making it worse!

[txlakeside]

Yes we all hate terrorist tactics. But to justify that hate of terrorism we must stand on a higher ground than the terrorist. If you are not ashamed of the torture the US has inflicted on "Prisoners of War" in direct violation of the Geneva Convention then you are as ignorant and evil as our leaders. Our dumb as dirt "Shrub" and the devil boy Cheney should be impeached and convicted of treason and war crimes. From outing CIA operatives for political reasons, firing prosecuters for political reasons, no bid war contracts, lieing to Congress to promote a war for oil these guys are as low as they get! I am ashamed of the current President and Vice President!

They have shamed America all for power and a profit! The Repubs will suffer badly in the next election!

[feelfree4u]

Deal!

[burneb]

Are they going to put Osama''s ex-barber or the second cousin of his ex-dentist''s nephew, or haven''t they finished torturing those guys yet?

[forasongca]

This is sad.

If this man did what he''s accused of, he should pay. But because our administration was so intent on "he''s guilty because we *say* he''s guilty," he might go free.

This guy probably doesn''t deserve to go free. But because our government has pursued these people in the way that it has...we probably don''t deserve to win a conviction either.

Like I said...sad.

[booray5]

Too long to post here, but for those who so are so eager to blame Bush for everything, this article printed in a German Magazine might be of interest.

www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/dapfner.asp

[randynason]

Maybe this guy is guilty, maybe he''s not. I think Bush and Cheney are guilty. When are we going to try them? I think a good time to initiate proceedings would be after they have vacated the White House. That way, they cannot pardon or claim executive privilege. They are directly responsible for deaths that number in the tens of thousands. Through ethnic cleansing by the Iraqis themselves, they are indirectly responsible for deaths that number several hundred thousand. It''s sad, that the leaders of the wealthiest nation in the free world are so corrupt, manipulative and inhumane. People''s eyes are wide open now, and it''s not a pretty sight.

[cyberus-2009]

Nothing like spending millions prosecuting a limo driver to bring the real criminals to justice!

[vnveteran72]

Shrub: "But, but, yer Honor, we don''t have any evidence other than that Confession we got while Burning his Nuttsackk with that Blow Torch"....
"Yer gonna ruin our whole case".....*sniff*...

[lmartink]

So when do George Bush and *** Cheney go on trial for war crimes? They are the ones who should be on trial.

[smurfcrusher]

Nancy_Naive! Hahahaha! Well said!!


I noticed we haven''t heard a "peep" out of our conservative friends - not a single post on this issue.

They would rather die of thirst than to admit their hero leader was way out of line for torturing prisoners.

[omded]

Is he guilty? Is he innocent? Who knows? The only thing we know for sure is that if a single one of those officers on the jury finds this man "not guilty", his future with the U.S. military is ruined. So much for a fair trial.

[jumkey]

Posted by Booray5

It''s called "personal responsibility". You conservatives should try it on sometime instead of blaming everyone else for your failures.

It Bush didn''t want to be accused of authorizing "coercive interrogation" he shouldn''t have ordered it.

BTW, the British Government has advised it''s MP''s to assume that the entire US Government and George Bush specifically are liars and not to take anything they say at face value. Britain is our oldest ally.

You must be so proud of the disgrace you''ve brought to our nation.

[stn_sage]

...I can see clearly now that this hatred is so intertwined with a frustration arising from the general public realization that even after Mr. Bush leaves office, there is no court in the land, or in the world, for that matter, that can do anything to him. And I worry about what could possibly be on the horizon for Mr. Bush when he is no longer head of state and protected by a thousand soldiers and bodyguards every time he goes for a cr*p....

Posted by ajayvee at 10:14 PM : Jul 21, 2008
--------------------
The assertion that there is NO court in the land or world that can do anything to him is ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

He can be indicted, charged, and tried ANYTIME!

The point is: the people primarily responsible for taking action against him are REFUSING to do so---they are refusing to do their jobs! They are acting to
PROTECT him and deny the public JUSTICE.

Who is protecting Bush? None other than Nancy PELOSI!
Why? The reasons for it can''t be good. That''s for sure!

[informedone1]

This vile piece of human garbage should be afforded the same rights the victims of 9/11 were afforded by Al-Qaeda before they were slaughtered: absolutely none. He should''ve been giving a bullet in the head, not a lawyer. I just hope after he''s given the death penalty, they throw his ashes far away from American soil. If him and his terrorist scum ilk want to go meet Allah so bad, I say we help them along as quickly as possible.

[tawpdawg11]

He was merely subjected to simulated drowning. SIMULATED!

Why would this judge throw out his confessions?

Does the judge think the captive may have admitted to something he didn''t really do even though he knew it was simply a SIMULATED drowning?

Apparently the judge didn''t get the memo about TORTURE BEING LEGAL NOW!

[smurfcrusher]

I find it incredibly cynical that this administration has no faith in our system of justice.

They act like they are fearful that a fair trial might not go their way.
I suggest they are right - if people are fair, some of these prisoners may be revealed for what they are:

Just some dude walking on a street and mugged for a $4,000 bounty by the US military.

There''s another possibility - that a fair trial would reveal the war crimes perpetuated by this administration in an open court.

I believe this is the real fear that clutches at their hearts, and the reason they want to use a military tribunal (if forced to do something). Much easier to cover up the abuses.

[smurfcrusher]

"If him and his terrorist scum ilk want to go meet Allah so bad, I say we help them along as quickly as possible."

Posted by informedone1


So you are judge, jury, and executioner!

What evidence do you have that he is a terrorist? How would you feel if you were grabbed and thrown in prison indefinitely without trial or contact with the outside world?

Think it can''t happen, if you''re a US citizen?

Think again.

"Can Anyone Be An "Enemy Combatant"?
"Sleeper Cell" Case Questions Bush Authority To Detain U.S. Residents Indefinitely Without Trial"


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/24/national/main4125235.shtml#Post

[smurfcrusher]

King George''s response to 9/11 closely parallels a mindless virus...

Specifically, avian flu at the end of WWII. For decades it was a mystery why young and healthy people seemed especially susceptible to death from this unusual strain of flu.

As it turns out, the victims perished because their immune systems mounted such a vigorous defense against the virus, that their lungs filled with fluid and they asphyxiated.

This is much like King George is doing, wrecking the economy, printing more and more money and depressing the dollar against the world''s currencies through out-of-control spending.

Over the last several years, the greed of the Republicans with their multi-billion dollar no-bid contracts, lack of fiscal oversight, and other irresponsible acts have caused the deficit to balloon by trillions of dollars.

Dumb as a virus.

[feelfree4u]

Related to Bush regime Gulag network-

"18 Afghans released from US controlled Bagram prison"

"Among the released Abdul Rauf a resident of Tirinkot claimed he was arrested for no crime and spent two years in jail..."

"I run a shop in my village the US forces came and took me out of my shop by the name of Talib and carried me to Bagram jail." he claimed.


"By the same token Zafar Jan a resident of Kunar claimed he spent two years in jail for having committed no crime, he added, US forces took him out of his house"

[smurfcrusher]

should be end of WWI. (typo).

see this:
"The Influenza Pandemic of 1918

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster. "

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

[smurfcrusher]

King George''s reign over America is like a disease upon this Earth.

We''re lucky only tens of thousands or perhaps a couple hundred thousand have died from his War of Choice.

[greybeardvet]

As an old Army vet, I am highly skeptical of military justice when politics are involved as they are here. The judge seems to have a sense of judicial prudence but that is no guarantee that the six officers on the jury do. They may be independent thinkers or they may be the biggest suck-butts in uniform; time will tell.

By the way, how is it that McCain was released from prison at the end of the VietNam war but this little guy with a fourth grade education is facing a life sentence?

[smurfcrusher]

Humanavance - That is a remarkable quote.

Neither King George (English, or Shrub variety) was a fan of the Constitution.

Thanks for sharing that quote.

[smurfcrusher]

"As an old Army vet, I am highly skeptical of military justice when politics are involved as they are here. The judge seems to have a sense of judicial prudence but that is no guarantee that the six officers on the jury do. They may be independent thinkers or they may be the biggest suck-butts in uniform; time will tell."

posted by Greybeardvet


I''m sure the military officers that would form the tribunal are only the very finest ex-torturers a promised promotion can buy!

I wouldn''t put it past King George to have the torturers on the tribunal, deciding the prisoners'' fates.

Give ''em a fair hearing, THEN hang ''em!

[stn_sage]

smurfcrusher:

There''''s another possibility - that a fair trial would reveal the war crimes perpetuated by this administration in an open court.

Posted by smurfcrusher at 12:07 AM : Jul 22, 2008
-------------------------------
In any legitimate court---military or civilian---the issues of how and under what conditions the evidence was obtained could be reviewed. Which means war crimes offenses by the Bush administration would be acknowledged.

Under this made up court system designed to railroad the accused, what''s included is ONLY what they want, what''s not, they don''t allow! There''s no justice involved, it''s just about getting a conviction!

It will inflame the Middle-East against us!

I think you''re correct about your speculation!

[soshljustic]

"Defense lawyers say he only kept the job for the US$200-a-month salary." and a 4th grade education, oh the poor little misbegotten man, who is pleading it is not his fault he is in bed with a master terrorist and we should pardon his poor little transgressions because after all he had no personal choice, no personal agency in the matter and he should be treated like the excuse make he is and we should all feel sorry for him,yeah. Bullkaka! I dont have a full brain, am poor, going to school to learn a new occupation i can do, to make money again, at 50 years of age. I dont have the bleeding heart to feel sorry for this jack w/o the nuts to know better-sitting here without a large chunk of brain. He should be severely spanked for his poor choices in support of terrorism,selling out his moral and ethic to other humans to serve self,we hardly owe him the time of day

[toldyouso12]

Torture any one of us, including Bush or Cheney and most would admit to being the driver for Saddam, having engineered 9/11, having personally killed every one in WWII or anything else.

The simple truth is, no information that is gained by torture can be trusted--because to stop the torture--anyone of us and this man, will say anything and admit to everything to stop the pain or torture.

This is just common sense. If all the government has is forcing people they torture to admit to crimes-then they have no case. If civilian police could do this--every case would be solved. NOT because the real criminal was caught or admitted to crimes--but because anyone who was brought in and tortured would admit to the same crime--even if they had not been born when the crime occurred. Tortured people will do or say anything to stop the horror of it. Even the most evil and sadistic among us, know this is true.

[feelfree4u]

The regime also regularly imprisons, tortures, and murders journalists, as a matter of course, and as an attempt to silence and intimidate them.

"National and foreign organizations for protection of journalists have described the condition of journalists in Afghanistan as shocking. They also demanded an unconditional release of Afghan journalist Jawid Ahmad, who is currently being detained in the US Bagram prison. Mariam Asi reports:"

"Addressing a press conference held in Kabul, officials from these organizations say Jawid Ahmad, an Afghan journalist, is innocent and that the US forces have imprisoned him illegally. They say the US troops imprison innocent people in Bagram and Guantanamo detention centres on various charges."


SEE B.S.???

Nary a peep.

[soshljustic]

"Defense lawyers say he only kept the job for the US$200-a-month salary." and a 4th grade education, oh the poor little misbegotten man, who is pleading it is not his fault he is in bed with a master terrorist and we should pardon his poor little transgressions because after all he had no personal choice, no personal agency in the matter and he should be treated like the excuse maker he is and we should all feel sorry for him,yeah. Bullkaka! I dont have a full brain, am poor, going to school to learn a new occupation i can do, to make money again, at 50 years of age. I dont have the bleeding heart to feel sorry for this jack w/o the nuts to know better-sitting here without a large chunk of brain. He should be severely spanked for his poor choices in support of terrorism,selling out his moral and ethic to other humans to serve self,we hardly owe him the time of day

[feelfree4u]

Re: "He should be severely spanked for his poor choices in support of terrorism,selling out his moral and ethic to other humans to serve self,we hardly owe him the time of day"

Posted by soshljustic


And how shall we treat you for being foolish enough to hitch your sorry wagon to a cowardly cowboy- a war criminal, torturer, psychopathic greedy liar, and mass-murderous traitor?

Should you receive the same?

[ajmarine111]

By the way, how is it that McCain was released from prison at the end of the VietNam war but this little guy with a fourth grade education is facing a life sentence?


Posted by Greybeardvet at 12:24 AM : Jul 22, 2008


Because the guy with the fourth grade education was not wearing a uniform.

[ofbyfor1]

In any legitimate court---military or civilian---the issues of how and under what conditions the evidence was obtained could be reviewed. Which means war crimes offenses by the Bush administration would be acknowledged.

Under this made up court system designed to railroad the accused, what''''s included is ONLY what they want, what''''s not, they don''''t allow! There''''s no justice involved, it''''s just about getting a conviction!

It will inflame the Middle-East against us!

I think you''''re correct about your speculation!

Posted by stn_sage at 12:29 AM : Jul 22, 2008

I want to repeat this post because this is a point that the neocons always seem to neglect and then they want to accuse those of us who DO take it into account as being ''America haters'' or ''terrorist apologists''.

I don''t think that I belong to either of those categories.

But I do believe that evidence gathered under torrture and hearsay should simply NOT be allowed under any system that wants to have the word ''justice'' associated with its name.

For those of you who want to justify this--do you realize that we are only a short step away from the right of the state to take away anyone for any reason and keep them indefinaitely, without any right of ''habeus corpus''?

Boumediene v. Bush, look it up!

[ofbyfor1]

Posted by AJMarine111 at 12:50 AM : Jul 22, 2008

Because, perhaps, he may not have been involved in an army? Yeah, I know you''ll say that none of them wear a uniform, because terrorists AREN''t part of any country''s army. And you''d be RIGHT on that point!

BUT, how do you differentiate the terrorists from the poor slobs who end up working with them because THEY cant tell the difference?

In other words, if WE can''t tell the difference because someone isn''t wearing a uniform, how do you expect the driver to?

I''ll give you my entire life savings if you can answer this conclusively in a logical argument!

[feelfree4u]

Related-

Bush regime torture Gulag expanding:

"US military jails ''black holes'', say US lawyers for Afghan reporter"

"KABUL (AFP) %u2014 US human rights lawyers charged Sunday that US military prisons are "legal black holes" and the force is detaining journalists to "shut people up" about activities in Iraq and Afghanistan."

"A vast detention camp planned for the main US base in Afghanistan will be a "second Guantanamo" where laws do not apply, they said at a press conference about an Afghan reporter in US military custody without charge for nine months."

"The US military is holding Jawad Ahmad, who has worked with Canadian Television (CTV), at its detention facility at Bagram north of Kabul on allegations he is an "unlawful enemy combatant."

"Ahmad is among 650 people being held at Bagram without trial..."

"Many people in Afghanistan and in Iraq that have been targeted for detention are local journalists covering the conflict in their own country,"

[ajmarine111]

BUT, how do you differentiate the terrorists from the poor slobs who end up working with them because THEY cant tell the difference?


Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:16 AM : Jul 22, 2008


Because they can''t tell the difference in what?



"In other words, if WE can''''t tell the difference because someone isn''''t wearing a uniform, how do you expect the driver to?''


The man drove for OBL,............don''t you think he knew what he was doing? When they caught him, he had two anti-aircraft missles in the car with him.

[ofbyfor1]

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:16 AM : Jul 22, 2008

AJMarine111---Can I go to sleep know or are you still attempting to come up with a lucid and logical response?

I get reeeeeally tire of conversing here with people who can''t respond when you call them on something!!!

It''s not that I can''t deal with people who have a different opinion from mine; it''s that people who get called out on their opinions or facts don''t have the guts to respond or have the honor to admit when they are wrong!

Have some cojones, gentlemen (if I can use THAT term loosely)!

[ofbyfor1]

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:16 AM : Jul 22, 2008

AJMarine111---Can I go to sleep know or are you still attempting to come up with a lucid and logical response?

I get reeeeeally tire of conversing here with people who can''t respond when you call them on something!!!

It''s not that I can''t deal with people who have a different opinion from mine; it''s that people who get called out on their opinions or facts don''t have the guts to respond or have the honor to admit when they are wrong!

Have some cojones, gentlemen (if I can use THAT term loosely)!

[feelfree4u]

Re: "All the religions of peace.

Fighting to the death."
SearingTruth


A particularly nice one, ST.

[ajmarine111]

Have some cojones, gentlemen (if I can use THAT term loosely)!

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:31 AM : Jul 22, 2008


Sorry, I''ve been away and just got back. Let me see what you have asked.

[ajmarine111]

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:16 AM : Jul 22, 2008

AJMarine111---Can I go to sleep know or are you still attempting to come up with a lucid and logical response?

I get reeeeeally tire of conversing here with people who can''''t respond when you call them on something!!!

It''''s not that I can''''t deal with people who have a different opinion from mine; it''''s that people who get called out on their opinions or facts don''''t have the guts to respond or have the honor to admit when they are wrong!

Have some cojones, gentlemen (if I can use THAT term loosely)!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:27 AM : Jul 22, 2008




I thought I gave you an answer, or asked you what you meant?

[closethippy1]

I really don''t understand how President George Bush could have gone wrong here.
Yes, he can argue all you want about how no laws whatsoever, be it the US'' or the UN''s, apply to a particular group of people.
Yes, he can detain them for a whole bunch of years without a trial.
Yes, he can try to drown them and not call that torture.
Yes, he did all that because he thought he heard a ticking bomb and he wanted to find out where the perpetrators are.
But in the end, when those so-called "Enemy combatants" come before a judge, the judge only knows one thing and one thing only, that''s the Constitution of the USA along with its amendments and all the laws created around it.
So what in the world does President Bush expect other than the laws of the land to be applied regardless of how much he dislikes the accused parties?
That is what is so insane about Jr.&Co.: To pretend that the law is going to be ignored or redone on the spot by the judges who are supposed to implement it.
I have said it once and I''ll say it again: Jr. just doesn''t give a sh.it.
He''s there for himself and nothing else.

[stn_sage]

ofbyfor1:

Posted by stn_sage at 12:29 AM : Jul 22, 2008
--------------------------
I want to repeat this post because this is a point that the neocons always seem to neglect and then they want to accuse those of us who DO take it into account as being ''''America haters'''' or ''''terrorist apologists''''.

I don''''t think that I belong to either of those categories.

But I do believe that evidence gathered under torture and hearsay should simply NOT be allowed under any system that wants to have the word ''''justice'''' associated with its name.

For those of you who want to justify this--do you realize that we are only a short step away from the right of the state to take away anyone for any reason and keep them indefinaitely, without any right of ''''habeus corpus''''?

Boumediene v. Bush, look it up!

Posted by ofbyfor1 at 01:08 AM : Jul 22, 2008
---------------------------
You have stated what I only implied---and what our neocon brethren who rush to judgment should consider---these kangaroo courts could be used against them! Deny justice to others, lose it for yourselves!