WASHINGTON, July 2, 2008
Feds Weigh Profiling-Based Investigations
Justice Dept. Likely To Let FBI Investigate Americans Based On Race, Other Traits Alone, No Evidence Necessary
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(CBS/AP)
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War On Terror
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Law enforcement officials say the proposed policy would help them do exactly what Congress demanded after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks: root out terrorists before they strike.
Although President Bush has disavowed targeting suspects based on their race or ethnicity, the new rules would allow the FBI to consider those factors among a number of traits that could trigger a national security investigation.
Currently, FBI agents need specific reasons - like evidence or allegations that a law probably has been violated - to investigate U.S. citizens and legal residents. The new policy, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press, would let agents open preliminary terrorism investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, were deemed suspicious.
Among the factors that could make someone subject of an investigation is travel to regions of the world known for terrorist activity, access to weapons or military training, along with the person's race or ethnicity.
More than a half-dozen senior FBI, Justice Department and other U.S. intelligence officials familiar with the new policy agreed to discuss it only on condition of anonymity, either because they were not allowed to speak publicly or because the change is not yet final.
The change, which is expected later this year, is part of an update of Justice Department policies known as the attorney general guidelines. They are being overhauled amid the FBI's transition from a traditional crime-fighting agency to one whose top mission is to protect America from terrorist attacks.
"We don't know what we don't know. And the object is to cut down on that," said one FBI official who defended the plans.
Another official, while also defending the proposed guidelines, raised concerns about criticism during the presidential election year over what he called "the P word" - profiling.
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If adopted, the guidelines would be put in place in the final months of a presidential administration that has been dogged by criticism that its counterterror programs trample privacy rights and civil liberties.We don't know what we don't know. And the object is to cut down on that.
Unnamed FBI officialCritics say the presumption of innocence is lost in the proposal. The FBI will be allowed to begin investigations simply "by assuming that everyone's a suspect, and then you weed out the innocent," said Caroline Fredrickson of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Attorney General Michael Mukasey acknowledged the overhaul was under way in early June, saying the guidelines sought to ensure regulations for FBI terror investigations don't conflict with ones governing criminal probes. He would not give any details.
"It's necessary to put in place regulations that will allow the FBI to transform itself ... into an intelligence gathering organization in addition to just a crime solving organization," Mukasey told reporters.
The changes would allow FBI agents to ask open-ended questions about activities of Muslim- or Arab-Americans, or investigate them if their jobs and backgrounds match trends that analysts deem suspect.
FBI agents would not be allowed to eavesdrop on phone calls or dig deeply into personal data - such as the content of phone or e-mail records or bank statements - until a full investigation was opened.
The guidelines focus on the FBI's domestic operations and run about 40 pages long, several officials said. They do not specifically spell out what traits the FBI should use in building profiles.
One senior Justice Department official said agents have been allowed since 2003 to build "threat assessments" of Americans based on public records and information from informants. Such assessments could be used to open a preliminary investigation, the official said.
However, another official said the 2003 authorities are limited, tightly monitored by FBI headquarters in Washington and, overall, confusing to agents about how or when they can be used.
Justice spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the guidelines governing when to open a national security investigation are part of a "harmonizing" process that will not give the FBI any more authority than it already has. He declined further comment, but he and two other senior Justice officials, would not deny the changes as they were described to AP by others familiar with the guidelines.
"Any review and change to the guidelines will reflect our traditional concerns for civil liberties and First Amendment liberties and our traditional investigative emphasis on using the least intrusive means feasible," Roehrkasse said Wednesday.
© MMVIII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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See all 129 CommentsThey should do it at Airports too!
I was stopped in an all black neighborhood, because a white guy commited a crime, and I happened to be white. Humm think they should have irnored me and messed with the black guy across the street from me?
KGB, KGB, KGB, from GWB.
But J Edgar never had the patriot act which gives the FBI the power to tell them all that they cannot tell you that they were questioned (under penalty of prison time). So you will NEVER KNOW why you lost your job, your wife left you, and your church turned against you.
Welcome to the land of liberty. The knuckle draggers have won. ROFCMAO
J Edgar must be having org*sms in his grave right now.
Which makes the President a lier.
NO! Not just no, but HELL NO! Investigating someone strictly because of their race is disgusting and un-American! It stinks of Nazi Germany going after people strictly because they were Jews! We''re supposed to be better then that!
HEIL TO DER HOMELAND!
Profile this middle finger, and if I ever find that you have been illegally spying on me, it will be a personal lawsuit against you, and those who assisted you, in front of a jury of my peers, in LA...
Sarge, most "Black" folk have been waiting for us to become "better than that" for generations now, so this is not new to us.
Re: "Justice Dept. Likely To Let FBI Investigate Americans Based On Race, Other Traits Alone, No Evidence Necessary"
Not unlike the Guantanamo, Bagram, or Abu Ghraib operations, among others.
Re: "Feds Weigh Profiling-Based Investigations"
Something tells me that they will have their thumb on the scale.
Yeah,sure. This sounds reasonable to me---if I were in Russia, or Hitler''s Germany, or Cuba, or China, or North Korea or any one of a couple dozen other places---but, here in America?! Have America''s leaders become SO corrupt, so thoroughly evil, that they''d even consider this?! EVIDENTLY!
It looks like Mukasey is every bit as big a criminal as Alberto Gonzalez! Like GWB would say, ''you''re doing a heck of a job, Mikey''! Thanks Democrats for putting this monster in over at Justice, you might as well have left Gonzalez there for the lack of good the change made!! Thanks Feinstein, thanks Schumer! I hope you get replaced, too!
Heil Bush.
"It''''s about time.
They should do it at Airports too!
I was stopped in an all black neighborhood, because a white guy commited a crime, and I happened to be white. Humm think they should have irnored me and messed with the black guy across the street from me?"
You probably deserved it.
Everybody knows whiteys can''t be trusted.
I''m surprised you weren''t shot down in a hail of bullets just because you looked suspicious and you *might* do something.
Stupid whiteys - someone needs to teach them a lesson.
He was happy to be a part of the process, and didn''t mind the inconvenience. Was he ''profiled?'' dunno if you can call that profiling. Didn''t bother him, as he had nothing to hide.
He was only lucky. In the absence of habeas corpus, you don''t have to have anything to hide, they can make up whatever story they need, you don''t even get the chance to prove them wrong, and with the recent advocacy of legalized torture, then they can torture you, to make you "confess" to whatever they want you to.
It is actually a very reassuring thought, once one has acquiesces to the accomplished total domination of the state. Relax and appreciate the benign promise of an increasingly industrial corporate police United States?
Don''t worry,
be happy
and be sure you shop at k-mart today
"He was happy to be a part of the process, and didn''''t mind the inconvenience. Was he ''''profiled?'''' dunno if you can call that profiling. Didn''''t bother him, as he had nothing to hide."
I suspect there is a difference between being questioned about a crime that was committed, and a crime that *might* or *might never* be committed.
When the Feds start questioning your boss and he fires you "just because" they are investigating you (and where there''s smoke there''s fire), you might feel differently.
Posted by republic1776
But a crime was committed, right? It''s not unreasonable to be stopped and asked a few questions if you fit the suspect description. It''s when no crime was committed and cops start asking for your "papers", that I begin to worry. Sounds like the Justice Dept is heading in that direction.
FBI agents would not be allowed to eavesdrop on phone calls or dig deeply into personal data - such as the content of phone or e-mail records or bank statements - until a full investigation was opened.------ Seeing how these terrorist use our freedoms against us with their muslim styled Saul Alinsky tactics,....I have no problem using common sense measures to get to the truth of a matter. However, just because someone is a member of a law enforcement agency doesn''t mean that the person who is actually doing the hoofin'' is trustworthy in honesty. Better a team work effort I''d say. The more eyes the merrier. In all, it''s been muslims that have been aggravating the peace in our nation, not granny or Joe/Jane American in the airport boarding line. Hold them more so to the same rules that govern us!
Not at all true and completely against the CONSTITUTION!!! This would be a sad moment in our nation''s history. Law enforcement is more than 99% of the time wrong and some of the biggest terrorists in our nation have been sheriffs and other supposed law enforcement people. Profiling is lazy police work.
This is just ridiculous. It''s going back to rounding all the Japanese-Americans and putting them into camps while the German-Americans didn''t have to worry about such treatments. Terrorists come in all shapes, sizes, religions, etc. To single out a group of people is moving in the direction of becoming Nazis. Shameful!
This is just ridiculous. It''''s going back to rounding all the Japanese-Americans and putting them into camps while the German-Americans didn''''t have to worry about such treatments. Terrorists come in all shapes, sizes, religions, etc. To single out a group of people is moving in the direction of becoming Nazis. Shameful!
Posted by whatithink at 06:18 AM : Jul 03, 2008------- Nah, your going to far with that. I can''t let enemies hide behind the Constitution to hurt me. I want the authorities with the common sense tools necessary to protect me from them. That oath on the Constitution that our leaders make themselves a servant to, is it not to protect us who have to do with it from those who do not? Common sense serves the Constitution, not betrays it.
Your enemies are not ALWAYS who you think your enemies are. You have no idea the full story behind all of this. I don''t either. I do know that it is known that our liberties at home can be given away by us to our government when our government makes us fear of enemies (either real or make believe). The truth, I think, is much more complicated than what we know.
Not to mention anyone expressing a contrary view about things dear to the White power structure, like the Vietnam war and American imperialism.
Not to mention their acts as agents provocateurs in causing violence at civil rights and antiwar demonstrations to give the cops a chance to main and kill.
So the FBI will spy on whomever it wants, for whatever reason.
The Bush administration, embodiments of the White country club wealthy power elite that owns and operates the USA and wants to own and operate the world, certainly isn''t going to put a stop to it.
What are you going to do about it?
The Framers of the Constitution wrote the 4th Amendment to prevent exactly this.
RINOpublicans and the NASCAR Stupid supporters are such a hoot.
John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814
James Madison
Posted by cfin5 at 06:32 AM : Jul 03, 2008
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Its a metaphor for people too stupid to realize that their Rights are being taken away - that is when they''re not cowering in imaginary fear and begging Bush and the Government to take them away for a false sense of a little more safety.
You are such a person for this metaphor.
Your enemies are not ALWAYS who you think your enemies are. You have no idea the full story behind all of this. I don''''t either. I do know that it is known that our liberties at home can be given away by us to our government when our government makes us fear of enemies (either real or make believe). The truth, I think, is much more complicated than what we know.
Posted by whatithink at 06:30 AM : Jul 03, 2008----- No problem with your words. That''s why we have investigations for clarity in a matter. I demand equal scrutiny for justices sake if they claim equal constitutional rights. This isn''t wrong,....it''s needed.
James Madison
Posted by whatithink at 06:35 AM : Jul 03, 2008
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Translation: Fear! Fear! Please Mr Bush, take my Rights away to protect me!
James Madison
The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.
James Madison
John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814
Posted by whatithink at 06:33 AM : Jul 03, 2008---- Point taken. You could consider me a "Jeffersonian Democrat" of old.
property rules, people follow is what the constitution says, and has said ever since washington got that recipe for the laird applejack, became the largest distiller in the colonies, and enforced the tariff he had to pay against the freemen west of the alleghenies that thought to make a free man''s living in liquid gold. those were the good old days of terror, when it was a domestic proposition of taxes and resources, and heads would roll.
Whatever freedom one believes one has is subject to the rule of the lowest common denominator, and law according to the rotten apple. too bad if the law is written by the apple, and executed by the common dominator.
So, I guess that any CBS poster will be jeopardy. Seems most of us hate Bush and his antics, we would/do fit their narrow definition of terrorism.
Beware of that knock on the door folks.
I think there is more danger in profiling. If you know what the profile is, you just have to find someone who doesn''t fit the profile to commit the crime. That happened not too long ago when an Irish woman tried to took a bomb on a plane.
--------
Another frightened little girl, cowering in fear of a few terrorists and fully willing to give away her freedoms and rights for a little imaginary security.
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Posted by FloydZepp2 at 06:37 AM : Jul 03, 2008"
EXACTLY!
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And a 3rd cowering, frightened girl, willing to give up someone else''s rights.
If you stop looking at grandmas from Omaha, somebody will find some grandmas from Omaha to commit the crime.
"A young Irish woman was arrested while trying to smuggle a bomb on board an Israeli El Al airliner at London Airport Heathrow."
I remember when property seizures by police was OK''d but it was only to take away illegal profits of drug dealers in Miami. Of course now its used to get property for police forces across the Nation.
No, they''ll never use it against me.
The cowering frightened girls in America, fearful and cowering over a few tribal level terrorists, willing to give away their rights because the Government softly assures them that its the right thing to do.
I propose to you that a power-hungry government may be the true lowest common denominator. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin. Remember Hitler starting a fire at the Reichstag and blaming his enemies in order to increase his control over the country.
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