Dem: Pentagon Sought Harsh Interrogations

Military Lawyers Objected In 2002 To Abusive Techniques, Top Senate Democrat Says

(AP)  The Pentagon in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks pursued abusive interrogation techniques once used by North Korea and Vietnam on American POWs despite stern warnings by several military lawyers that the methods were cruel and even illegal, according to a Senate investigation.

The findings, detailed in a hearing Tuesday, brought rebukes of the Pentagon effort from Democrats and Republicans alike.

"The guidance (administration lawyers) provided will go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation's military and intelligence communities," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., an Air Force Reserve colonel who teaches military law for the service.

The hearing is the Senate Armed Services Committee's first look at the origins of harsh interrogation methods and how policy decisions were vetted across the Defense Department. Its review fits into a broader picture of the government's handling of detainees, which includes FBI and CIA interrogations in secret prisons.

The panel is expected to hold further hearings on the matter and release a final report by the end of the year.

Among its initial findings is that senior Pentagon lawyers, including the office of general counsel William "Jim" Haynes, sought information as early as July 2002 regarding a military program that trained U.S. troops how to survive enemy interrogations and deny foes valuable intelligence.

Much of the training program, known as "Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape," or SERE, is based on experiences of American prisoners of war in previous conflicts, including those in Korea and Vietnam.

In response, SERE officials provided Haynes' office a list of tactics that included sensory deprivation, sleep disruption and stress positions.

Haynes, who resigned his post in February, testified that he remembers receiving the information, but that he did not recall requesting it personally.

Several of those techniques, including stress positions, were later approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in a December 2002 memo for use at Guantanamo Bay. Rumsfeld and Haynes agreed to the methods, despite objections by military service lawyers that they might be illegal.

"Whatever interrogation techniques we adopt will eventually become public knowledge," wrote Col. John Ley of the Army's Judge Advocate General office in November 2002. "If we mistreat detainees, we will quickly lose the (moral) high ground and public support will erode."

Haynes said he too had misgivings, but that he was unaware of the legal objections in the military services. He said he was doing the best he could to help prevent another major terrorist attack.

"There was a limited amount of time and a high degree of urgency," Haynes said of his decision to cut short at one point a department-wide review of the legality of the interrogation methods.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said Rumsfeld's endorsement paved the way for abuses to occur in Iraq and Afghanistan and makes U.S. troops more likely to someday be tortured if captured by the enemy.

"If we use those same techniques offensively against detainees, it says to the world that they have America's stamp of approval," said Levin.

The committee also released previously secret and privately held documents on Tuesday. According to minutes from an October 2002 meeting, a top military lawyer at Guantanamo said prisoners were exposed to previously forbidden techniques, such as sleep deprivation, but that such treatment was hidden from the International Committee of the Red Cross.

"Officially it is not happening," Lt. Col. Diane Beaver said in the meeting. "It is not being reported officially. The ICRC is a serious concern. They will be in and out, scrutinizing our operations, unless they are displeased and decide to protest and leave. This would draw a lot of negative attention."

A senior CIA lawyer at the meeting, John Fredman, explained that whether harsh interrogation amounted to torture "is a matter of perception." The only sure test for torture is if the detainee died.

"If the detainees dies, you're doing it wrong," Fredman said.

Beaver wrote a now-infamous Oct. 11, 2002, memo that determined abusive methods could be used against detainees at Guantanamo Bay prison because they were not considered prisoners of war. Her proposed methods included extended isolation, 20-hour interrogations, death threats and waterboarding.

On Tuesday, Beaver told the committee that she was "shocked" that her memo became the primary justification for Rumsfeld's approval to use harsher methods.

She had asked her superiors for input because those working at Guantanamo and engaged in the interrogation program "don't always have the best perspective."

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the administration does not review every legal opinion, but that its position has been "to deal with these detainees humanely" and "get the information from them that we can to protect this country."

Notably absent from the hearing Tuesday was the Senate's biggest champion of detainee rights and the top Republican on the committee, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. A former prisoner of war, McCain has become less visible on the issue of detainee treatment since becoming a presidential candidate.

McCain was in San Antonio on Tuesday giving a speech on energy and attending campaign fundraisers.

[sgtrds-e4]

Rumsfeld is a war criminal, just like Bush and Cheney are. Here''s hoping he takes the Goring way out before he''s convicted and hanged.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "Rumsfeld Interrogations May Be Illegal"

Rumsfeld''s torture techniques at his illegal torture centers "might" be illegal?

Gee, who would have guessed it?

Rumsfeld is on the sidelines now, CBS.

Where were you when he first began implementing these torture techniques?

[sgtrds-e4]

Arrest Rumsfeld with war crimes and put him on trial. It makes no difference to me whether he''''s tried in the U.S. or in the Hague, just as long as ample evidence is presented and there will be a chance that he can be convicted.

Posted by antixlayer at 01:09 AM : Jun 17, 2008

And when he is properly convicted, hanged. Just like Bush and Cheney and Rice and Wolfowitz, etc. I''ll gladly buy all the rope necessary.

[pvperson]

Spoken like a true neo-con corey, don''t let little things like law or morals or right and wrong slow down things. Just grab a few ragheads off the streets and torture them into confessions before we kill them.

[sgtrds-e4]

The Bush administration took the horrible tragedy of 9-11 and used it as an excuse to trample on the Bill of Rights and American laws. In their insane zeal for more and more an more power they kidnapped and tortured people who had nothing to do with 9-11 or terrorism. They acted no different then Nazis and they should be treated no different then them now. War crimes tribunals and executions. We MUST make an example of them to deter any other future administration from ignoring our laws and worse, thinking they are above them. They are OUR servants and employees, not the other way around. They REPORT to US!

[mr_totten]

Rumsfeld is an idiot.

He should of stayed perfectly legal.

Then if more attacks happened he could ask for asylum in Sweden when the American People wanted his butt.

[feelfree4u]

Again we see an Exxon-Mobil ad with this article, attempting to further profit from the torture programs that have benefited their earnings so obscenely already.

[mr_totten]

The American People are willing to die like flies rather than let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them.

[sgtrds-e4]

The American People are willing to die like flies rather than let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them.

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:25 AM : Jun 17, 2008

I agree! 100%

[ausus-2009]

Judging from the comments, the term "liberal" would be inappropriate. Liberalism implies tolerance. We have people advocating hanging of a former Cabinet member. Other than the sovereignty issues, trials in the Hague do not lead to death penalties. In fact, they rarely lead to anything other than a circus.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "And when he is properly convicted, hanged. Just like Bush and Cheney and Rice and Wolfowitz, etc. I''ll gladly buy all the rope necessary."

Posted by SgtRDS-E4


Here is one of my favorite photographs of the treasonous, dead-brained Zionist, Paul Wolfowitz:

www.commondreams.org/headlines04/images/0503-04.jpg

Could someone please get that door?

[mr_totten]

This country should totally cease to exist rather than survive on one questionable act.

[harpoot]

" let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them. Posted by Mr_Totten"

One shady act??? The US government behaves just like a third world dictatorship. Protect us? What a laugh. It''s window dressing for the brain dead.

[sgtrds-e4]

Other than the sovereignty issues, trials in the Hague do not lead to death penalties. In fact, they rarely lead to anything other than a circus.

Posted by ausus at 01:26 AM : Jun 17, 2008

I don''t advocate a trial in the Hague. I''m looking for a new Nuremberg tribunal. Bush and Cheney''s crimes are nearly as big and certainly deserve the same format and punishment.

[sgtrds-e4]

This country should totally cease to exist rather than survive on one questionable act.

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:28 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Yes. If that act is torture, then yes.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "I agree! 100%"

Posted by SgtRDS-E4

This guy is yanking your chain "SgtRDS".

Caution.

[mr_totten]

One shady act??? The US government behaves just like a third world dictatorship. Protect us? What a laugh. It''''s window dressing for the brain dead.

Posted by harpoo
.............
That''s right on!

This country has acted like all the other countries in order to survive. That''s shameful..

[babooph]

Being that both candidates claim to be anti Bush-how come the propaganda system has not asked them if they will turn the whole rotten bunch over to the world court??Oops they are in it with them !!

[sgtrds-e4]

Re: "I agree! 100%"

Posted by SgtRDS-E4

This guy is yanking your chain "SgtRDS".

Caution.

Posted by FeelFree4U at 01:31 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Oh I know, but I do agree with what he posted, if he likes it or not or if he was cynical or not.

[sgtrds-e4]

This country has acted like all the other countries in order to survive. That''''s shameful..

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:31 AM : Jun 17, 2008

If you mean torture, then I agree, it is shameful.

[mr_totten]

Caution? I am posting the truth of the movement to make America what it should be.

[feelfree4u]

If anyone is actually interested in reviewing more imbecilic blather from Michael Totten, he can be found at his Website:

www.michaeltotten.com

[sgtrds-e4]

Caution? I am posting the truth of the movement to make America what it should be.

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:33 AM : Jun 17, 2008

A free, brave and honest nation that does not resort to torture at all. I agree.

[mr_totten]

America has always had the choice to make choices.

Everyone here knows those choices and everyone here has criticized those choices.

Shame for being cowards and not fighting for the right choice instead of the CAUTION cowards choice.

[sgtrds-e4]

If anyone is actually interested in reviewing more imbecilic blather from Michael Totten, he can be found at his Website:

www.michaeltotten.com

Posted by FeelFree4U at 01:33 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Been there, but even if he cynically posts that America should not resort to torture under any circumstance, then he''s right and I agree.

[harpoot]

" let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them. Posted by Mr_Totten"

One shady act??? The US government behaves just like a third world dictatorship. Protect us? What a laugh. It''s window dressing for the brain dead.

[harpoot]

" let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them. Posted by Mr_Totten"

One shady act??? The US government behaves just like a third world dictatorship. Protect us? What a laugh. It''s window dressing for the brain dead.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "Been there, but even if he cynically posts that America should not resort to torture under any circumstance, then he''s right and I agree."

Posted by SgtRDS-E4

Agreed.

[sgtrds-e4]

Shame for being cowards and not fighting for the right choice instead of the CAUTION cowards choice.

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:36 AM : Jun 17, 2008


I agree! Shame to any who resort to the cowards choice of torture! They should be run out of government and imprisoned, then hanged!

[harpoot]

" let one shady act be performed in their name to protect them. Posted by Mr_Totten"

One shady act??? The US government behaves just like a third world dictatorship. Protect us? What a laugh. It''s window dressing for the brain dead.

[ausus-2009]

SgtRDS-E4, To equate the current US administration and its present and former cabinet members with Nazi Germany is ridiculous. I think the deaths of 6 million Jewish people and all of the other Nazi atrocities made a greater impact on the history of the world. Perhaps that is why you were only an E4, certainly not officer material.

[sgtrds-e4]

Agreed.

Posted by FeelFree4U at 01:38 AM : Jun 17, 2008

His cynicism and sarcasm are weak tools. Tricks of children. Easily turned around.

[sgtrds-e4]

Agreed.

Posted by FeelFree4U at 01:38 AM : Jun 17, 2008

His cynicism and sarcasm are weak tools. Tricks of children. Easily turned around.

[feelfree4u]

Re: "And so, just as Hitler and Stalin before them, Bush and his henchmen recruited brutal sociopaths to torture and murder, accounting only to their personal will. Lending them, wholeheartedly and enthusiastically, all necessary moral and legal blessing."

So true, SearingTruth.

So true.

[mr_totten]

The powers that control this country have appropriated OUR resources and without our permission are looting Iraq and Afghanistan and using those same resources to create phony proof of enemy atrocities.

Even FeelFree4U will agree crooked people have taken our money and turned over innocent people to be brutally tortured and even killed in the fictional ruse presented to us.

There are no terrorists - merely patriots defending their homeland.

[sgtrds-e4]

SgtRDS-E4, To equate the current US administration and its present and former cabinet members with Nazi Germany is ridiculous. I think the deaths of 6 million Jewish people and all of the other Nazi atrocities made a greater impact on the history of the world. Perhaps that is why you were only an E4, certainly not officer material.

Posted by ausus at 01:40 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Even the worst mass murderers started small. How nice for the world it would have been if we''d been able to stop the Nazis BEFORE they murdered the 6 million. Don''t you think? Why wait to stop fascism until it''s almost too late?

[mr_totten]

The Twin Towers were brought down the way they were because it was too expensive to do it the right way.

These people in charge would kill you or me in a second. They would kill 10,00 people in a second.

They have no soul or conscience but merely look at all as one big video game.

BUT!!! They have played this game since mankind could think and organize.

We are merely one big Monopoly game to these elite secret people.

[ausus-2009]

SgtRDS-E4, Either you are prone to gross exaggeration or you have little knowledge of history and political science.

[sgtrds-e4]

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:44 AM : Jun 17, 2008


You are a paranoid fool. I honestly hope you get help before you crack and start shooting innocent people from a bell tower somewhere. You know there is medication to control those voices inside of your head.

[mr_totten]

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:44 AM : Jun 17, 2008


You are a paranoid fool. I honestly hope you get help before you crack and start shooting innocent people from a bell tower somewhere. You know there is medication to control those voices inside of your head.

Posted by SgtRDS-E4
.. .. ..

I thought we were in agreement. You mean the Administration is innocent of all this wrong doing??

[sgtrds-e4]

Either you are prone to gross exaggeration or you have little knowledge of history and political science.

Posted by ausus at 01:46 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Actually I have an excellent understanding of both history and political science. Still your contentions to the contrary don''t change the truth of what I said. If one had the opportunity to strangle the next Hitler in the crib, rather then to wait until more then 20 million people die trying to defeat him, why wouldn''t they? Bush and Cheney are baby fascists. Stop them now before they grow too strong.

[sgtrds-e4]

I thought we were in agreement. You mean the Administration is innocent of all this wrong doing??

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:47 AM : Jun 17, 2008

There is no doubt that this administration danced with joy when the towers fell, but that they had a hand in it is a paranoid conspiracy theory. they aren''t that good or smart.

[ausus-2009]

SgtRDS-E4, Don''t you know there will be an election at the end of the year? Obama is an overwhelming favorite. Hitler, Mugabe, Castro, Stalin, Kim etc. would have never allowed a democratic regime change. Can''t you see the difference?

[mr_totten]

I thought we were in agreement. You mean the Administration is innocent of all this wrong doing??

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:47 AM : Jun 17, 2008

There is no doubt that this administration danced with joy when the towers fell, but that they had a hand in it is a paranoid conspiracy theory. they aren''''t that good or smart.

Posted by SgtRDS-E4
.. .. ..

Well I had no idea you knew them personally. Tell me more!

[sgtrds-e4]

SgtRDS-E4, Don''''t you know there will be an election at the end of the year? Obama is an overwhelming favorite. Hitler, Mugabe, Castro, Stalin, Kim etc. would have never allowed a democratic regime change. Can''''t you see the difference?

Posted by ausus at 01:52 AM : Jun 17, 2008

Obama is not the President yet. Given the chance there is no doubt in my mind that the Neoconservative movement will try to have him killed or will declare the new war in Iran as a "National Emergency" and seize power that way. This will be the first time in American history when power has changed hands WITH bloodshed. I''m afraid to say it, but it''s true.

[mr_totten]

Obama is not the President yet. Given the chance there is no doubt in my mind that the Neoconservative movement will try to have him killed or will declare the new war in Iran as a "National Emergency" and seize power that way. This will be the first time in American history when power has changed hands WITH bloodshed. I''''m afraid to say it, but it''''s true.

Posted by SgtRDS-E4
.. .. .. ..

That''s why they built all those prisons. They need somewhere to put the patriots that live through the civil war.

[sgtrds-e4]

Well I had no idea you knew them personally. Tell me more!

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:53 AM : Jun 17, 2008

I know Cheney is evil and that Bush is a mere meat puppet. Still the Neoconservative movement is NOT some deep dark undeafeatable conspiracy. It''s a baby bird, a fledgling, that can still be murdered in the nest. if people see it for the danger it is and stop it now.

[mr_totten]

All the signs are here. The people notice the exact techniques of Nazi fascism. The prisons will be emptied and the inmates will be used just like in Iraq and just like in Nazi Germany by the administration.

[sgtrds-e4]

They need somewhere to put the patriots that live through the civil war.

Posted by Mr_Totten at 01:57 AM : Jun 17, 2008

There does not have to be a civil war, or at least not much of one. IF the American people refuse to accept the duplicity of the Neoconservatives and refuse to accept their rule when they move to take it, then the troops will (as they say) "stay in the barracks" and the Neoconservatives will give up. The Constitution is strong and will survive IF we demand it.

[ausus-2009]

SgtRDS-E4, You are as much of a paranoid as Mr Totten (whoever he or she is). I remember reading the same thing in an article in the early 70s about Nixon seizing power in a coup. It didn''t happen. It won''t happen now. The military leadership is not stupid (at least not as much as some NCOs). Congress and the American people wouldn''t allow it. There will be only six more months of a Bush presidency.