9/11 Families' Differing Views Of Justice

Relatives Of Two Killed In Terror Attacks Discuss Controversial Tribunals At Guantanamo

(CBS)  By CBS News correspondent Russ Mitchell and CBS News producer Phil Hirschkorn.

---

After years in detention, this week marked the first time that five men accused of direct involvement in the September 11, 2001, terrorism attacks on America made their first joint appearance in a military court, at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

It was the start of a process which, the government expects, will bring justice for the families of 9/11 victims.

But, as heard from two close relatives of the victims, those families don't view the Guantanamo proceedings the same way.

"We must not forget the 2,973 people that were so brutally murdered as a result of this conspiracy," said Debra Burlingame.

Her brother, Charles, was the pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, the hijacked plane that crashed into the Pentagon on September 11.

"This is a way to be there for him, to witness for him these men getting American justice," she said.

The five men arraigned this week are accused of planning 9/11, training the 19 hijackers, and wiring them money to carry out the attacks.

"They are being given a great deal more of due process then they deserve, quite frankly," Burlingame said.

The long-delayed commissions are controversial - such as allowing government prosecutors to use hearsay evidence and statements coerced from the detainees under torture ... while limiting the witnesses whom detainees may call.

But Burlingame supports the process wholeheartedly.

"We mustn't let this turn into a focus so much on process that we forget who it is we are dealing with and what it is they did," she said.

Process is a focus for Carie Lemak, whose mother Judy was aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first hijacked plane to crash into the World Trade Center. She said she rejects any mistreatment of detainees that's occurred and, she says, so would her mother.

"These are not good people, but I'm also very concerned about the system of justice that this country stands for, and want to make sure that we have trials that aren't perceived as kangaroo courts around the world," Lemak said.

"She would want to see the American system of justice demonstrated around the globe for what it is, which is a beacon of hope - that even though they can treat us terribly, we are going to treat them humanely."

At his arraignment, defendant Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged architect of 9/11, told the commission he would welcome becoming a "martyr" - and that worries Lemak, who opposes the death penalty sought by the government in this case.

"I want them to go to jail for the rest of their lives," she said. "Since my mom's been murdered, the biggest kind of torture for me is not being able to hug her ever again, and to me that's the fate that these people deserve - to be locked up in a jail cell for the rest of their lives and never get to hug anyone they love again."

This month, the Supreme Court is expected to weigh in, again, on the constitutionality of the Guantanamo commissions. The Pentagon calls them fair; critics call them a "show."

"I'm concerned that it could turn into that, and I want to make sure it doesn't," Lemak said.

"It's still some form of holding these men responsible for what they did," Burlingame said.

No start date has been set for the trial of the five 9/11 detainees, who say they want to represent themselves in the proceedings.

[ubrew12]

Article: "After years in detention, this week marked the first time that five [Al-Qaida]... made their first joint appearance in a military court at... Guantanamo Bay"

As a loyal neocon, I''m sure glad Bush didn''t turn these trials over to the Justice Department. Keeping it in the military means these trials are timed with an eye to the next election. Our purpose is the get McCain elected, and if these five had to languish in jail for 20 years before the right political moment came along to do their show trials, then thats a small price to pay for ''democracy-neocon-style'' in America.

[jumkey]

"They are being given a great deal more of due process then they deserve, quite frankly," Burlingame said.

"We mustn''t let this turn into a focus so much on process that we forget who it is we are dealing with and what it is they did," she said.

What an idiot. The "process" is called the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Conservatives are just too stupid.

[gkc99]

"At his arraignment, defendant Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged architect of 9/11, told the commission he would welcome becoming a "martyr" - and that worries Lemak, who opposes the death penalty sought by the government in this case."


Obviously a life sentence in "Maxie" would be far more appropriate in this case--in a bare white room with a floor drain, 1 hour exercise (alone) per day, no drugs, no books other than Koran, no visitors. And a constant suicide watch.

Have a nice life, "sheikh"!

[edward1975-2009]

jumkey: The two documents cover U.S. citizens and have no bearing in a military court. And these detainees are allowed no relief under either. Nice try though.

[nanging3]

Have you seen the petition to remove Father Pfleger ?

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/removable-of-father-michael-pfleger

[ioweign]

We mustn''t let this turn into a focus so much on process that we forget who it is we are dealing with and what it is they did," she said.


And what if by chance "they didn''t do it"...

[lewiston14]

Gkc "bare white room with a floor drain, 1 hour exercise (alone) per day, no drugs, no books other than Koran, no visitors. And a constant suicide watch."

How about a pink room with pictures of dogs on the walls?

[ioweign]

jumkey: The two documents cover U.S. citizens and have no bearing in a military court. And these detainees are allowed no relief under either. Nice try though.

Posted by Edward1975 at 01:12 PM : Jun 08, 2008

The Constitution makes any treaty we sign the "Law of the Land". The Geneva Convention was signed by the US and we signed and are members of the UN.

Article Six establishes the Constitution, and the laws and [treaties] of the United States made in accordance with it, to be the [supreme law of the land], and that "the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the laws or constitutions of any state notwithstanding."

[voidmaster-2009]

The rest of the world understands the blood lust these men inspire. But consider that if the government in fact failed to prove one of them guilty and thus freed him, how much more respect much of the world would have for the U. S. No, not all of the world would respect America, not by any means. But certainly former allies might well consider becoming allies once again.

I would like to see that, but of course we all know it will not happen that way. Kangaroo sauce, anyone?

[rhs648]

Gkc "bare white room with a floor drain, 1 hour exercise (alone) per day, no drugs, no books other than Koran, no visitors. And a constant suicide watch."

How about a pink room with pictures of dogs on the walls?
------------------------------------------------

Posted by lewiston14 at 01:26 PM : Jun 08, 2008

1) Why provide a copy of the Koran? This was their inspiration for the 9/11 attacks and terrorism?

2) The only just punishment is beheading in public. I will gladly volunteer to be the executioner. Each should have to witness the beheading of the others.

Let the world see what happens to scum. They get due process while depriving others of the same thing. How Insane!

[Kacela]

Can''t wait for Cheney''s trial for his involvement in 9/11

[rhs648]

What an idiot. The "process" is called the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Conservatives are just too stupid.

Posted By Junkey


The Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to those living in America. Is there an obligation to apply the Constitution to foreign fighters from foreign countries? Was this ever the intent of the Constitution? Other countries have their own laws, constitutions, and customs. Liberals would be appalled at our forcing our constitution and Bill of Rights on other countries. Watch who you call stupid.

[feelfreee4u]

These Jihadist psychopaths murdered almost 3000 people. Let''s not forget this is first and foremost a MURDER trial, not a show or a drama or a political statement. Just picture those two burning towers in your head and imagine how YOU would feel if your loved one had vanished that day because of what these guys did.

[missingamerica]

The Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to those living in America. Is there an obligation to apply the Constitution to foreign fighters from foreign countries? Was this ever the intent of the Constitution? Other countries have their own laws, constitutions, and customs. Liberals would be appalled at our forcing our constitution and Bill of Rights on other countries. Watch who you call stupid.

Posted by rhs648 at 01:57 PM : Jun 08, 2008

Ummmm...then whisking people out of their own nations so that we can put them in a place that is devoid of laws - both ours, and the laws of the nation where we snatched them from - is a little bit suspect, is it not?

[ioweign]

The Constitution and Bill of Rights apply to those living in America. Is there an obligation to apply the Constitution to foreign fighters from foreign countries? Was this ever the intent of the Constitution? Other countries have their own laws, constitutions, and customs. Liberals would be appalled at our forcing our constitution and Bill of Rights on other countries. Watch who you call stupid.

Posted by rhs648 at 01:57 PM : Jun 08, 2008

What are we doing in Iraq then ?

Read Article Six - we signed the Geneva Convenstion and are bound to it. Some of these detainees were captured on a battle field.

[rhs648]

These Jihadist psychopaths murdered almost 3000 people. Let''''s not forget this is first and foremost a MURDER trial, not a show or a drama or a political statement. Just picture those two burning towers in your head and imagine how YOU would feel if your loved one had vanished that day because of what these guys did.

Posted by FeelFreee4U

Hi FeelFree4U - Sadly there are people who would give these people a second chace or feel that they can be reformed or turned into good people. Anthing short of death is too good for these terrorists.

[dowjones20k]

Interesting that one of the victims relatives wants these evil pieces of garbage to spend the rest of thier lives in jail if convicted?

So is she going to donate to a fund to pay for this with some of her tax free government 9-11 money?

It is compelling to listen to how folks look into a crystal ball and speculate on how a relative would want something .... who knows the horror these folks endured?

With the events that transpired, they may well feel that death is not even good enough for this scum ...

If the reporter was woth his salt they would have tried to use some type of straw poll to indicate how many families feel death is the only way for them to have justice ... which is probably more the case ...

[dowjones20k]

Read Article Six - we signed the Geneva Convenstion and are bound to it. Some of these detainees were captured on a battle field.

Posted by IOWEIGN at 02:09 PM : Jun 08, 2008

THe Geneva convention was based on military that wore identifiable uniforms and fought for a country ... not a religious belief who runa around in robes and hide in schools, mosques, and innocent neighborhoods .. so to use the OUTDATED Geneva Convention as a guideline for this point in time is actually silly ...

[rhs648]

Ummmm...then whisking people out of their own nations so that we can put them in a place that is devoid of laws - both ours, and the laws of the nation where we snatched them from - is a little bit suspect, is it not?

Posted by ibsteve2u

Most of us have better things to do than shed tears for these people. As Bill Clintor promised, we will find these people wherever they are. We would be better off spending our time and effort protecting Americans, not sworn enemies of the American people.

[edward1975-2009]

IOWEIGN: The Geneva Convention doesn''t apply to these detainees and never has. And the Article that you have referenced also does not apply. These detainees are military prisoners and are afforded no rights under any of the references you make. Nice try.

[wiscojason]

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. It doesn''t say "all men born in the United States are created equal" or that they are endowed with certain inalienable rights "unless we think they did something really really bad, then we presume them guilty without a trial and execute them without due process."

[j62kd4b]

Find it interesting that the US has been reduced to allowing HANGINGS & a commenter today suggests BEHEADING - is this the same Democracy (excuse me, Republic of the U.S.) we are bringing to the Mid East - in fact, many of the peoples of the Mideast, had 5000 years of DEMOCRACY - including Iraq before Sadaam!

[rhs648]

THe Geneva convention was based on military that wore identifiable uniforms and fought for a country ... not a religious belief who runa around in robes and hide in schools, mosques, and innocent neighborhoods .. so to use the OUTDATED Geneva Convention as a guideline for this point in time is actually silly ...

Posted by dowjones20k

Very well said! The Geneva Convention rules were designed for armies fighting against each other. These terrorists do not meet the criteria.

[ioweign]

THe Geneva convention was based on military that wore identifiable uniforms and fought for a country ... not a religious belief who runa around in robes and hide in schools, mosques, and innocent neighborhoods .. so to use the OUTDATED Geneva Convention as a guideline for this point in time is actually silly ...

Posted by dowjones20k at 02:14 PM : Jun 08, 2008

The Geneva Convention covers uniforms and non-uniform combatants.

Silly - then why did Bush/Gonzales/Cheney/Hadley come up with these tribunals - to circumvent the Geneva Convention.

[rhs648]

Find it interesting that the US has been reduced to allowing HANGINGS & a commenter today suggests BEHEADING - is this the same Democracy (excuse me, Republic of the U.S.) we are bringing to the Mid East - in fact, many of the peoples of the Mideast, had 5000 years of DEMOCRACY - including Iraq before Sadaam!

Posted by j62kd4b

So what! None of us were alive then. What matters now is what happens currently. My nephew is in the hospital because of a roadside bomb in Iraq. I''m sure he doesn''t care about democracy in the middle east five thousand years ago if, in fact, it ever existed.

[dowjones20k]

Find it interesting that the US has been reduced to allowing HANGINGS & a commenter today suggests BEHEADING

Posted by j62kd4b at 02:19 PM : Jun 08, 2008

Amusing you bring that up ... many middle east & asian nations use the death penalty ... and once a defendant is convicted and sentenced to death, take them out and SHOOT them in the head or behead them ... avoiding the ridiculous never ending appeals/housing that cost this justice system millions ...

So if these sum bags are convicted what would your suggestion for punishment be?

Maybe in a half way house next door to you?

[edward1975-2009]

IOWEIGN: The Geneva Convention applies to lawful combantants and these detainees do not qualify, better start reading what you reference. You would afford rights to people that neither abide or reconize said Convention. Let me ask under what rights do the men and woman of our military who are captured recieve. They are found hours later dead,brutalized, mutilated and defiled. You hypocrites would ask us to give these detainees rights that they themselves don''t offer to ours, you have more compassion for these detainees then the men and woman who defend this nation. You are an embarassment to this nation.

[ioweign]

"The Secretary (Rumsfeld) seems unaware of the requirements of international humanitarian law. As a party to the Geneva Conventions, the United States is required to treat every detained combatant humanely, including unlawful combatants. The United States may not pick and choose among them to decide who is entitled to decent treatment."

Jamie Fellner
Director of Human Rights Watch4s U.S. Program

[wiscojason]

If the Geneva Convention didn''t apply, the administration wouldn''t need to craft flimsy arguments and secret torture centers to circumvent it. If it were ok to simply execute people without a trial or due process to determine guilt then we wouldn''t be having this conversation as it wouldn''t be allowed; anyone who disagreed would be labeled a terrorist sympathizer and sent to the same torture centers. That''s not the country I live in, though it is exactly where the terrorists come from and what they want for us. Why do you advocate to give the terrorists what they want?

[nolalou]

Why should we make these guy martyrs, like they want, which would make them heroes to their followers and be used to recruit more terrorists? If they are guilty, then I agree they should get life in prison. I also agree that any information gained while the suspects were being tortured is highly suspect, since most people would say anything to make the torture stop!

[ioweign]

(New York, February 7, 2002) -- U.S. President George W. Bush correctly acknowledged that the Geneva Conventions apply to the conflict in Afghanistan, Human Rights Watch said today. But he erred in deciding that the Conventions do not cover al-Qaeda detainees and by categorically ruling out prisoner of war status for Taliban detainees without convening a competent tribunal, as the Geneva Conventions require.

[dowjones20k]

The Geneva Convention covers uniforms and non-uniform combatants.

Silly - then why did Bush/Gonzales/Cheney/Hadley come up with these tribunals - to circumvent the Geneva Convention.


Posted by IOWEIGN at 02:22 PM : Jun 08, 2008


Yes indeed it does ... but again from the 1930''s not the 21st century ... it certainly does not address religious fanatics or terrorists.

Do you honestly beleive that one of these scum bags deserves to have thier trial in Manhattan? or anywhere else in this country?

The Sumpreme court will address this issue in the next few months and we shall see if they concur with the military tribunals or not ...

[ioweign]

IOWEIGN: The Geneva Convention applies to lawful combantants and these detainees do not qualify, better start reading what you reference. You would afford rights to people that neither abide or reconize said Convention. Let me ask under what rights do the men and woman of our military who are captured recieve. They are found hours later dead,brutalized, mutilated and defiled. You hypocrites would ask us to give these detainees rights that they themselves don''''t offer to ours, you have more compassion for these detainees then the men and woman who defend this nation. You are an embarassment to this nation.

Posted by Edward1975 at 02:26 PM : Jun 08, 2008

Are you after revenge or justice ?

[rhs648]

If the Geneva Convention didn''''t apply, the administration wouldn''''t need to craft flimsy arguments and secret torture centers to circumvent it. If it were ok to simply execute people without a trial or due process to determine guilt then we wouldn''''t be having this conversation as it wouldn''''t be allowed; anyone who disagreed would be labeled a terrorist sympathizer and sent to the same torture centers. That''''s not the country I live in, though it is exactly where the terrorists come from and what they want for us. Why do you advocate to give the terrorists what they want?

Posted by jstep9

I give up. Let them go. they are thousands of miles from us anyway. Next time, they might pick on one of their own people and leave us alone. So why give this a second thought?

[dowjones20k]

Director of Human Rights Watch4s U.S. Program

Posted by IOWEIGN at 02:26 PM : Jun 08, 2008

Human Rights Watch is a VERY FARLEFT LEANING group who enjoyes having countries pay for thier beliefs ..

We can all go to the web and get biased quotes and etc .. deabte your knowledge not someone elses rhetoric

[darncat422]

wow, its incredible how many of you lack basic understanding of the processes involved.

the entire point of a criminal trial under the guidelines of our Constitution is to ESTABLISH guilt or culpability. Regardless of our personal feelings of repulsion, this process must be maintained, otherwise guilt has not been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as REQUIRED by the legal system of our great country. It is immoral and an attack on our legal system and way of life to abridge these constitutional protections under any and all circumstance.

if you are unsure of this, please check the constitutional records; this was undoubtedly the intent of our system of law.

do not forget there are other advantages to a trial of law. specifically, closure is one of these. it is incredibly important for the psyche of the victims and community to see the facts established beyond doubt and the culpable parties presented with the truth laid bare before them.

they may be entirely guilty... but how am i or anyone to know this without the process taking place?

am i supposed to trust the same people who told me they would protect me and my city from these attacks in the first place?

am i supposed to trust those who knowingly lied to connect these crimes to iraq?

am i supposed to trust those who promised the existence of nuclear and biological weapons there?

there was not the execution of required processes before the invasion of Iraq, either, and look how well that turned out.

[dowjones20k]

I would ask ALL of you terrorist sympathizers this question ...

If Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or any other terrorist had information that would allow ONE of your FAMILY members to avoid being killed ...

Would any of you have enough fortitude to advocate for any kind of waterboarding/torture of these scumbags to rescue your familiy members?

Can you please answer that for us wrong minded folks?

[bdjusa]

The Middle East Terrorists were patsies. Research the possibility that the Mossad (Israel''s CIA) was the mastermind of the attacks. They wanted America to go to war against their so called enemies. The Dancing Israelis were seen videotaping and celebrating while the first tower was hit. They were arrested (Mossad agents). One of them went on an Israeli television talk show and said he was there to document the event. ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE? The Israeli Art students were following and living next to the hijackers in Florida and the East coast. They were surveillance experts (following the patsies). Odigo Systems (Israeli company) received an advanced warning the day of the attack (probably not from Arabs). An Israeli company, Systems Planning Corporation makes equipment to take over a plane with remote control. Former military pilots at pilotsfortruth.org claim the maneuvers of the hijacked planes could simply not have been done by the very incompetent hijacker pilots, especially at the Pentagon. The twin towers would have looked like pencils at the speed they were going. Zim American Israeli company broke their lease at the twin towers ($50,000 loss) and moved out a few weeks before the attack. ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE? The FBI website does not include the 911 attacks on the list of terrorists acts by Osama Ben Laden. The confession tape was a joke. The Mossad motto - Through deception though shall cause war.

[darncat422]

in addition to my previous statement, i would like to encourage the cowardly rhs648 to watch the movie the green mile. if he is really so desperate to become a sadistic murderer in the name of justice, it is imperative he see this stirring cautionary tale before our great country is saddled with yet another disturbed and souless serial killer.

actually, rhs648 sounds like a typical al qaeda recruit to me... maybe you should join up, i hear they are looking for your type of perverse phsycotic personality.

thank you

[rhs648]

there was not the execution of required processes before the invasion of Iraq, either, and look how well that turned out.

Posted by darncat422

History will be the judge of that!

[dowjones20k]

darncat422 at 02:39 PM : Jun 08, 2008


You make alot of insinuations that are not backed up by fact ... just political rhetoric .. have you lost sight or asked yourself how many of your congressional leaders voted FOR the invasion in the first place?

Military tribunals are the best way to handle these scum bags ... unless you are saying that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed deserves to be treated as an AMERICAN nad hold trial in Manhattan.

Maybe after his convixtion he can go to a halfway house in your neighborhood?

[standlee5]

How about life in solitary confinement. But how can we be sure they''re sentence wouldn''t be commuted by a sympathetic US president.

[beehive21-2009]

The cowboy hats should be removed in doors,all gentlemen know you don''t wear a hat indoors.Hang these killers,before they get lose and kill more people

[ioweign]

I would ask ALL of you terrorist sympathizers this question ...

If Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or any other terrorist had information that would allow ONE of your FAMILY members to avoid being killed ...

Would any of you have enough fortitude to advocate for any kind of waterboarding/torture of these scumbags to rescue your familiy members?

Can you please answer that for us wrong minded folks?

Posted by dowjones20k at 02:41 PM : Jun 08, 2008


If your logic had any "value", one would see it incorporated into our present legal system...

[edward1975-2009]

IOWEIGN: I''m seeking to apply the same justice that these insurgents apply to ours. What''s your agenda, other than misplaced compassion.

[darncat422]

History will be the judge of that!

Posted by rhs648 at 02:44 PM


no- GOD will be the judge of that.
but google the history of iraq, you will be surprised at the mistakes we made, long, long before any of the gulf wars...

democracy could have easily been forced upon
iraq without the war... Saddam was begging
us to let him surrender to exile.
did you see his eyes when they hanged him?
he knew his time was up
and it was sick

we have unwittingly become the pawns of the shiite majority in a cultural war.
the only result of this at all was the revenge killing
of saddam, his aids, and many random sunnis due to sunni anger at years of repression

we played right into this and now our hands are bloodied
and for what?
to help some iraqis get brutal, vigilante
revenge on other iraqis

this is sane foreign policy im sure

[barbaraf4]

I wish I could believe that this band of losers were actually responsible for 9/11. I don''t think collectively they have an IQ of 100.

[wiscojason]

"wow, its incredible how many of you lack basic understanding of the processes involved.

the entire point of a criminal trial under the guidelines of our Constitution is to ESTABLISH guilt or culpability. "

Thank you! I would think it would be obvious to everyone that if we just execute people based on suspicions, hearsay and circumstance that would make us no better than anyone else who''s murdered people. Why can''t people understand; you have to prove guilt before you have any standing to make a case for execution, imprisonment or anything else. If we just kill these people because they probably did it but do not follow legal due process then we are simply murderers and no better than them.

[edward1975-2009]

darncatt422; The Constitution applys to American citizens, get your head detached from your ***. These are military prisoners, The Bill of Rights and The Constitution don''t apply. It''s that simple, and neither does the Geneva Convention. Read said documents before referencing them.

[ioweign]

The Geneva Convention covers uniforms and non-uniform combatants.

Silly - then why did Bush/Gonzales/Cheney/Hadley come up with these tribunals - to circumvent the Geneva Convention.


Posted by IOWEIGN at 02:22 PM : Jun 08, 2008


Yes indeed it does ... but again from the 1930''''s not the 21st century ... it certainly does not address religious fanatics or terrorists.

Do you honestly beleive that one of these scum bags deserves to have thier trial in Manhattan? or anywhere else in this country?

The Sumpreme court will address this issue in the next few months and we shall see if they concur with the military tribunals or not ...

Posted by dowjones20k at 02:29 PM : Jun 08, 2008

Actually the Geneva Convention is more recent than 1930.

It must be a real b_itch living under a document written back in 1776...