Katrina-Battered New Orleans Levee Leaking

Experts Point To Seepage, Say Repaired 17th Street Canal Could Fail Again In Storm

(AP)  Despite more than $22 million in repairs, a levee that broke with catastrophic effect during Hurricane Katrina is leaking again because of the mushy ground on which New Orleans was built, raising serious questions about the reliability of the city's flood defenses.

Outside engineering experts who have studied the project told The Associated Press that the type of seepage spotted at the 17th Street Canal in the Lakeview neighborhood afflicts other New Orleans levees, too, and could cause some of them to collapse during a storm.

The Army Corps of Engineers has spent about $4 billion so far of the $14 billion set aside by Congress to repair and upgrade the metropolitan area's hundreds of miles of levees by 2011. Some outside experts said the leak could mean that billions more will be needed and that some of the work already completed may need to be redone.

"It is all based on a 30-year-old defunct model of thinking, and it means that when they wake up to this one - really - our cost is going to increase significantly," said Bob Bea, a civil engineer at the University of California at Berkeley.

The Army Corps of Engineers disputed the experts' dire assessment. The agency said it is taking the risk of seepage into account and rebuilding the levees with an adequate margin of safety.

"It's always a potential, so it is a design component for every feature," said Walter Baumy, the chief corps engineer in New Orleans.

The 17th Street Canal floodwall collapsed on the day Katrina surged over New Orleans in August 2005, and the failure severely damaged Lakeview. It was one of the biggest of about 50 levee breaches that contributed to the deaths of about 1,300 people.

Fixing the 17th Street Canal has been one of the most expensive and laborious repair jobs since the storm and has served as something of a test case for scientists and engineers, who plan to apply the lessons learned there to the city's other levees.

Among other things, they repaired the wall by driving interlocking sheets of steel 60 feet into the ground, compared with about 17 feet before the storm. The sheet metal is supposed to prevent canal water from seeping under the levee through the wet, toothpaste-like soil that lies beneath the city, which was built on reclaimed swamp and filled-in marsh.

Over the past few months, however, the corps found evidence that canal water is seeping through the joints in the sheet metal and then rising to the surface on the other side of the levee, forming puddles and other wet spots.

Engineers said the boggy ground is a more serious problem than the corps realizes. Bea said there is a roughly 40 percent chance of the 17th Street Canal levee collapsing if water rises higher than 6 feet above sea level. During Katrina, the water reached 7 feet in the canal.

John Schmertmann, a retired University of Florida professor and a consultant on foundations, agreed with Bea that the corps "may still be embedding some of these not-properly-considered factors, so the new walls may not do what the corps expects."

Reducing such seepage might require the driving of sheet metal far deeper into the ground than is done now, or some other solution, said Bea, who was part of a team of experts sent by the National Science Foundation to do an independent study of the levee failures during Katrina.

Donald Jolissaint, chief of the corps' technical support branch in New Orleans, denied the problem at the 17th Street Canal is serious.

"I personally do not at all believe that this little wet spot is anything that is going to cause a breach or a failure of any kind," he said. A newly installed floodgate could be used to cut off the flow of water into the canal and reduce pressure on the levee, he said.

Nevertheless, the corps is concerned enough that for weeks, workers have been analyzing the wet spots and digging a 160-foot-long, 10-foot-deep trench to zero in on the source. "We're doing everything we can to chase this down," Jolissaint said.

The corps is also spending about $100 million by taking more than 2,000 soil borings to find out what is under the ground and determine the best design.

Timothy Kusky, a geologist with Saint Louis University and an expert on the Mississippi River, said engineering a safe levee system in New Orleans will be very difficult because of the soil.

"You've got old riverbeds and floodplain deposits all interlayered and distributed laterally in a very complex way, and then you build a levee across them," Kusky said.

As a result, a levee sinks at different rates, and the sinking creates "little cracks in them that promote seepage, and also the old river channels and floodplain deposits have different potentials for underseepage," he said.

He said the corps understands a lot of the problems, but it takes a huge amount of data to map every weakness, and the agency does not have the manpower to see that every contractor is doing the job right.

Seepage was reported at the 17th Street Canal before Katrina. The corps denies that caused the collapse. Instead, the corps contends the floodwall flexed and finally cracked under the force of water piled against it by the storm.

[CB_Brooklyn]

You wanna know how Katrina got so strong?

See Dr Judy Wood''s new paper:

9/11 Weather Anomalies and Field Effects

http://drjudywood.com/articles/erin/index.html


The data presented in the above paper is MAJOR.

Have a look.

[wbwilhite]

Another couple of thousand drownings should help them resolve their debate.

[samrensho]

Another of Georgie''s no bid contracts undoubtedly. Heck of a job Brownie.

[barbaraf4]

There should have been no attempts to rebuild New Orleans. We are throwing substantial tax dollars into a swamp. Let it go and rebuild somewhere else. Let the city be reclaimed.

[petro49l]

The levees are breaking because FEMA failed to make the proper repairs. FEMA management is a group of incompetent homosexuals who could careless about the people of New Orleans. They are corrupt, insensitive, and guilty of negligent homicide. The Department of Homeland Security should order immediate terminations at the highest level.

[raksr1]

I love reading the comments about GW being at fault, the Army Corps being at fault, FEMA being at fault. You idiots have no clue. NATURE is at fault. Man keeps trying to make nature change but it ain''t gonna happen. The city is built in a bowl, on a filled in marsh, and nature is going to reclaim that marsh! Time to let nature take over...build it somewhere else!

[gheemaster38]

I guess the chewing gum is holding this time either. Now they will have to stop pocketing the money and really fix the issue.

[gheemaster38]

Maybe instead of chewing gum they should try duct tape and crazy glue. From what I have seen on some of the cars in the south, it works wonders..

[jjp735i]

Mutty Putty.......it really works! Cheaper too.

[docpeter-2009]

From the story, Donald Jolissaint, chief of the corps'' technical support branch in New Orleans said, "I personally do not at all believe that this little wet spot is anything that is going to cause a breach or a failure of any kind,"

One comment, belief means very little here. You had better know "this little wet spot is anything" before another tragedy occurs.

[acolton1]

The Government does not care about New Orleans. Its mostly built below sea level and in 100 years with sea level rize there will be no New Orleans or after another Cat 3 or 4 hits the city. Its all just lip service and the city is gone in 50 years.

[gopack443]

Maybe after the next time that city floods the people that live there will realize that living below sea level in a hurricane zone is suicide waiting to happen. But probably not. Not if the Fed''s keep bailing them out!

[lilvinnyb]

Dont be so short sighted people. The city of new orleans is a MAJOR port of entry for goods (including oil). Letting the city be ''reclaimed'' would wreak havoc on our economy.

What they should do is swallow their pride and ask the Dutch Government to help them build levees that will REALLY work. They dutch have been holding back the Northern Atlantic for decades.

[al2008-2009]

Ia applaud our local mayor*s, representatives, and governor*s efforts to rebuild New Orleans. Be patient; this will take time, care, and estimates of over a trillion dollars.
.
At the same time I*m appalled at the administration*s lack of response to the global warming hurricanes, and cyclones as well. We have no comprehensive strategy in place whatsoever, let alone a detailed plan of action to mitigate the effects of these cyclones, and mother earth continues to suffer while the administration refuses to go forward and do what*s right for mother earth.
.
How long must we sit idly by while our mother continues to suffer from the warming taking place at a feverish pace? How long must our mother suffer before we have proper c02 taxes put into place? How long must the destruction of mother earth take place before we finally put responsible regulations into effect? How long must we wait until we beef up our corn ethanol production? At least Obama wants to cut c02 pollution by 80%; he is definitely our best hope.
.
We the people call upon our leaders to implement a comprehensive antiglobal warming strategy at once and work in coordination with state and federal officials; these cyclones and storms continue to worsen and the quicker we stop the warming the sooner we will see these storms cease. We need action now.

[singingrick]

Of course we''re too busy rebuilding Iraq to bother rebuilding an American city.

[demslie]

Of course we''''re too busy rebuilding Iraq to bother rebuilding an American city.

Posted by singingrick

That%u2019s right, America is always wrong. When I lived in New Orleans, The 9th ward was called an "America City", it was called a ghetto or a cesspool or a place where you would never go after dark. Now, all of a sudden, it is a wonderful place instead of the murder and drug center of New Orleans that it has been for the last 30 years. And by the way, the levees in New Orleans and lower Louisiana have been leaking for 150 years. But its still Bush%u2019s Fault.

[talkingham]

Everyone knows that Al Quaeda blew that levee. Where else in the world would one stick of dynamite bring down a city?

Bush missed a great anti-terror opportunity. Instead, the terrorist win with their simple "moisten and douse" strategy. Great job Brownie.

Do we really need New Orleans anyway? That whole Mardis Gras thing is so 50 years ago!

[msay3]

Everyone knows that Al Quaeda blew that levee. Where else in the world would one stick of dynamite bring down a city?
----------------------------

How about the offshore oil pipes of Venezuela? Terrorists are targeting those, and we''re feeling the pinch with increased oil prices.

[tootall10142]

No levee no insurance no help when your house floats away.think about the money spent at k.f.c and mcd''sand t-bell and you have insurance,better health and you could rebuild in better place.new orleans is destined to be under waterare stupid enogh to go down with it?

[tonic1661]

2,000 goes into 100,000,000 how many times. does it really cost that much for a soil boring.

The last time they laid any significant mud on the levees was august of ''06. where is all this money going. some went to pumps. maybe four. but four billion dollars?

new orleans resident.

[minnick8-2009]

The Dutch can manage to hold back the sea with their levees, but the U.S.A. doesn''t build levees to hold back Lake Ponchatrane? New Orleans is below sea level, and surrounded by water from the lake, the river, and the gulf of Mexico. If the levees aren''t going to be built to do the job, then the residents should relocate and let the swamps have the city back.

Thirty five years ago, I looked at maps and atlases and figured out that New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen. People to whom I expressed my concerns told me I was just stupid and didn''t know what I was talking about. I''m just a mere desert dweller who has never even been to New Orleans. Since I was able to figure out thirty five years ago that New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen, why didn''t New Orleans, Louisiana, and the federal government figure it out, and make it safe for residents? Why aren''t they doing it now?

[minnick8-2009]

How about the offshore oil pipes of Venezuela? Terrorists are targeting those, and we''''re feeling the pinch with increased oil prices.
Posted by msay3

If terrorists are targeting oil fields in Venezuela, why don''t we hear about it on the news?

[kellie97]

Yes, we are such fools to live here. I could live in the midwest, but wait they have tornados and floods. I could move out west, but wait, they have earthquakes and firestorms, or I could move out east, wait the snow storms are brutal and the coast could get hit by a hurricane too. ***, what am I to do. I guess we should never live where a disaster could strike, so let move all of America to Arizona and Nevada, nothing ever happens there.

I had flood insurance and rebuilt my home. If we donot rebuild after any disasters, where would we all live? Too all those who say that N.O. should not be rebuilt, do we do that for all the cities in America that continue to flood or get hit by tornados or have forest fires. If it good for one, then it''s good for all.

[bobnjersey]

["I personally do not at all believe that this little wet spot is anything that is going to cause a breach or a failure of any kind," he said. A newly installed floodgate could be used to cut off the flow of water into the canal and reduce pressure on the levee, he said.]

test it ... block the canal and flood it ... see what happens.

[minnick8-2009]

kellie97
So why doesn''t the USA invest the resources necessary to make the levees secure? Like I said previously, it seemed apparent to me 35 years ago that NO was a disaster waiting to happen, and it did. We don''t hear about the levees on the North Sea not doing their jobs. So, whose fault is it that the levees in NO don''t do theirs? Would it be the Republicans? The Democrats? The Corps of Engineers? Corrupted officials in Louisiana? Whatever is happening is tragic and shouldn''t be in the U.S. So, great, don''t move. Stay there and get flooded again.

[minnick8-2009]

Kellie97,

You will probably answer, but I have to log out and get some work done. So, I won''t be here.

[lsv1974]

The floodwalls/levees in Lakeview got foundations
that are 60 ft. deep.

Dr. Bea saw the plans for the repairs of the Industrial Canal floodwalls in the Lower Ninth Ward.

The foundations in the Lower Nine are only 20 FEET
deep. The Canal is 40 ft. deep! The Corp told
residents the foundations would be 60 ft. NO ONE CAN
TELL ME THIS ISN''T ENVIRONMENTAL RACISM.

G** D*** the Corp of Engineers. Their stupidity goes
back nearly 100 years.

FYI - I''m white and live in Holy Cross (Lower Nine)

[kellie97]

minnick8 I know you said you would not be here, but I will answer anyway. I get your point, but what I am saying is that people are saying how N.O. should not be rebuilt. That people like me, who have worked their entire life to bulid something they could be proud of having, are just supposed to pack up and leave everything behind and start new. Can you imagine how hard that would be for over half a million people? Would you just up and leave everyone and everthing you know and all that you have worked to acheive, or would you take your trust in God (and insurance companies)and live your life the best way you know how. Not all the people of N.O. are poor or on welfare (like the media likes to protray). We have hard working low and middle class people (rich ones too) who only want to have a decent life. That was my point.

[lsv1974]

ShawnP

Cute little Bushie, aren''t you? The United States of
America has taxes AND POOLS ITS RESOURCES so every
citizen has a minimum amount of protection. California
has earthquakes, the Midwest has tornados, etc. The
Corps has levees and public works ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. OUR taxes pay for your safety, too. When
someone screws up, government or private industry,
they should be held accountable. Have a civilized
discussion and leave off the name-calling. But I think
that''s the best your Bushie brain can do.

[xalen54]

"I personally do not at all believe that this little wet spot is anything that is going to cause a breach or a failure of any kind."
Donald Jolissaint,
Army Corps of Engineers
--------------------------

....... 3 seconds later xP

[lsv1974]

Bully,

So "Bushie" is an insult now? I''m glad know it''s on the level with other curse words. It needs to be. And yes, I used it just to see if someone would respond about it.

[parrot123-2009]

lsv1974

Interesting discussion of economics, and I liked the request for a end to name calling, but did you really have to contradict yourself and call someone a "Bushie" and "Bushie brain"? You must be one of those psuedo intellectual liberals who thinks it is okay for libs to use insulting terms, but no one else.
Posted by bullyforhim at 12:36 PM : May 22, 2008

I thought ISV was spot on and it didn''t seem like name-calling if it''s true. Just my Opinion. Cheers!

[lsv1974]

Bully,

You''re taking this way to seriously. Don''t you have
anything better to do?

[minnick8-2009]

Would you just up and leave everyone and everthing you know and all that you have worked to achieve?
Posted by kellie97

Kellie,
For a number of reasons, I have moved 26 times in my life, but I must say, I don''t enjoy it and I haven''t now for a long time; it isn''t easy.
My point is not that New Orleans shouldn''t be rebuilt, but that obviously it was never set up to withstand the worst case scenario. As far as the rebuilt levy is concerned right now, according to this CBS News report, it is leaking. I think since the technology exists to build effective, workable levies that keep back the water, such as the Dutch have created on the North Sea, then we, the USA should build those types of levies. If that doesn''t happen for whatever financial or political reasons, then persons who stay there are doing it at their own risk.

People in NO are going to have to lobby hard for effective levies. Good luck, I hope you are successful if enough people there want them.

[david1737]

McCain endorser and campaign contributor Pastor John Hagee:

"I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

Pastor Hagee

[david1737]

McCain said he was "very honored by Pastor John Hagee''s endorsement."


"I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

Pastor Hagee

[david1737]

More quotes from Pastor Hagee:

"Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist."

-Pastor John Hagee in his book What Every Man Wants in a Woman (Charisma House, 2005)

[david1737]

Bottom line McCain said this about Pastor Hagee:

I''m "very honored by Pastor John Hagee''''s endorsement."

-John McCain

[bobnjersey]

[The new superlative in the scatalogical reference library may be a "Katrina." A catastrophy everyone saw coming, was prepared for, destroyed homes, a city and its people as well as their trust in government. ]
[Posted by mjlewis6 at 01:30 PM : May 22, 2008]

there''s another ''katrina'' coming ... it wont be local to NO ... it will destroy more than homes ... and nobody seems to really care.

who won american idol ... who''s off survivor this week ... the era of every pitcher in the league ... and whether or not barry bonds and roger clemens lied is way more important ... at least for now.

[bobnjersey]

[but did you really have to contradict yourself and call someone a "Bushie" and "Bushie brain"? You must be one of those psuedo intellectual liberals who thinks it is okay for libs to use insulting terms, but no one else. ]
[Posted by bullyforhim at 12:36 PM : May 22, 2008]

it''s often that many don''t really want the discussion to be at a higher level ... you''re own use of the term ''lib'' could be viewed as a slur against ''left thinking'' types.

anyone who at this stage continues to support all that defines the policies and politics of the bush administration are likely best characterized as ''authoritarian followers'' ... a personality classification that has decades of research behind it ... and is uncanny it''s accuracy.

most don''t know what it is ... those who suffer from it''s effects don''t want to know what it is ... which in itself is one of they symptoms of the condition.

these online threads are full of them. ''bushie'' could be classified as a slang for what really defines them and their view of the world. you can read about it here (many other sources available).

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

[usmcvn2]

Its Bush''s fault!!

[usmcvn2]

Save the Polar Bears!!!

[hsbarney]

It would be cheaper to move NO 40 miles inland brick by brick and build a NEW New Orleans.

[talkingham]

Yes, please save the Polar bears and New Orleans ''cause we sure can''t afford another year of King Bush and his Saudis buddies no matter how much Viagra Rush Limbaugh takes to the Domincan Republic and blames tree huggers for all his little bitty problems down there, you know, down THERE..

[bobnjersey]

[Oh no.. CBS is run by Democrats.. they deleted my post about how two Democrats]
[Posted by cornbiker at 03:55 PM : May 22, 2008]

don''t think so. contrary to ''your'' popular belief ... the liberals are not behind everything you don''t like ... don''t believe in ... or don''t benefit from.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/47530.php

[alanscouten]

Our construction standards are so low in this country that a Holland, for instance, would never accept the design standards foisted on loser-americans by winner-americans. As the rush of tornados, earthquakes and typhoons indicates, we are not the worst builders in the world, but as the richest and most powerful country in the world, we watch our houses-of-sticks explode and our flimsy floodwalls disappear into the muck. Amsterdam,Holland was the home of my great-great etc. explorer Willem Schouten, who named Cape Horn in 1616. Four hundred years later, Amsterdam stands tall and dry and a monument to culture and art.
A child can push a knife into a mudpie and see it topple, and answer what the USACOE cannot. Shame on us.

[frankbowers]

What is so sad here is not the Engineering as it is the best ion the world it is the cheap contractors who pocket the money and throw a little cement at the problem and it in not the hey duty tyupe but the 2 sack crete you can get at homedeopt for 2.19 for a 60 # sack until the Congress require stress test are accurate it will continue. This work is being done likd huey nLong did for hightway 171 running north from Lake charles to Shreveport which was breaking down before the cars hit it in the 40''s. Do not blame the engineering it is the product thast the contractors are using and the method of instalation which is done on the cheap side although high charges the most was done by illegal aliens in the end and do not forget they could care less as long as they can send the money eqarned to mexico rather paing our US Taxes. Frank Bowers of Leesville, La and i remember the Longs. Who were the best that run in that day.

[keithle1]

"Mushy ground"? New Orleans? Wha---? I never knew this. Why was this kept a secret?

Every hurricane season New Orleans has to pray desperately to The Supreme Being that the big one (or even the medium one) doesn''t hit again.

[gopack443]

When the hurricanes where headed to N.O. the people there had all the time in the world to get out and go to higher ground. But didn''t! Now they have even more time to know that the levee is going to break and they need to get above sea level. I assume they will respond by sitting on there hands and wondering why no one feel sorry for them.
Time to stop wasting money on that city and let it go back to swamp!

[gopack443]

"Too all those who say that N.O. should not be rebuilt, do we do that for all the cities in America that continue to flood or get hit by tornadoes or have forest fires."
Posted by kellie97


Them city forest fires are the worst!
No wonder people in new orleans are to stupid to leave when a hurricane is coming!