Sect Parents Decry Vague Custody Plans

FLDS Claims Religious Persecution; Says "There's No Clear Answer" To Getting Children Back

(CBS/AP)  The parents of the children in state custody after a raid at a polygamist sect's ranch came to a courthouse asking one question: How do we get back our children?

They left complaining that Texas child welfare officials offered no real answers Monday as five judges began sorting the massive custody case into separate family groups. The state has more than 460 children from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in foster care.

Texas officials are making it impossible for parents to get back their children, complained Willie Jessop, an elder of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which runs the ranch in Eldorado.

"Every parent is accused of being bad and there's no cure," he said after the first day of hearings, which were to resume Tuesday and expected to last three weeks.

All the parents got the same template plan outlining allegations of abuse at the ranch and services required for the children and parents. Judges made few changes, though several expressed concerns about the lack of specifics. The plans do not make it clear whether the children will ever be allowed to return to the ranch.

"What the parents are trying to find out here is what they need to do to get their children back, and there's no clear answer to that," FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said.

The parents say they are being persecuted for their religion, which includes the belief that polygamy brings glorification in heaven.

In one hearing, attorneys complained that the Book of Mormon was confiscated from some of the children at a foster facility.

"If they can openly admit they can take away the Book of Mormon from us today, it'll be the Bible tomorrow," Jessop said.

State Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said officials have not been able to confirm whether the sect members' holy text was taken from them, but they have removed photos, sermons and books of FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs, a convicted sex offender.

Edward and his wife Dora Mae, who are the parents of six, told CBS' The Early Show that it has been eight days since they have seen their children.

"We're trying to find out what it is we can do to prove because we don't even know what we're charged with. We've just been blanketed with a charge and we don't even know what it is that we've done to have them take our children from us," Dora Mae said.

"Every American mother should be standing in line saying, 'this is wrong, this is America'," Dora Mae added. "I have the right to hold my baby and rock her. I have the right to love my children."

None of the judges allowed much discussion on whether the initial grounds for removing the children from the ranch were valid. Such re-examination will likely depend on an appeals court.

Texas child welfare authorities argued that all the children, from newborns to teenagers, should be removed from the ranch because the sect pushes underage girls into marriage and sex and encourages boys to become future perpetrators.

Church members insist there was no abuse. They say the one-size-fits-all action plan devised by CPS doesn't take into account specific marriage arrangements or living circumstances.

Some sect members lived in a communal setting in large log houses they built themselves. Others lived as traditional nuclear families in their own housing on the ranch.

CPS spokeswoman Shari Pulliam said the plans look similar now but will be customized as officials get more information.

"It's logical they all look the same. All the children were removed from the same address at the same time for the same reason," she said. But "it's an evolving plan."

The plans call for parenting classes and vocational testing for the parents. They also require the parents to prove they can support their children and call for safe living environments, though they offer no specifics.

CPS supervisor Karrie Emerson said the parenting classes will be tailored to explain Texas laws regarding underage sex.

CPS has said the goal is to reunify the families by April.

The custody case has been unusual from the beginning. All the children at the ranch were treated as if they belonged to a single household, so the chaotic initial hearing involved hundreds of attorneys for children and parents and broad allegations from the department about the risks of abuse.

So far, 168 mothers and 69 fathers have been identified in court documents; more than 100 other children had unknown parents as the hearings got under way. DNA samples have been taken, but the first results are at least two weeks away.

The state acknowledged Monday that two more sect members it listed as minors were actually adults, a mistake it has made at least four times.

The children were removed from the ranch during an April 3 raid that began after someone called a domestic abuse hot line claiming to be a pregnant 16-year-old abused by a much older husband. The caller has never been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

The FLDS is a renegade breakaway of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

Sect leader Jeffs has been sentenced to prison in Utah for being an accomplice to rape in arranging a marriage of a 14-year-old follower to her 19-year-old cousin. He is awaiting trial in Arizona, where he is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct.

Court documents listed 10 children of Jeffs living at the ranch. If DNA tests confirm that any of the children are his, the children will be allowed to keep a photo, unlike the other sect children, said Meisner, the CPS spokeswoman.

[skeezix06]

Nice try. No sale. They abused and/or allowed their children to be abused. The children shouldn''t be returned. Watching how hesitant the mother was as she tried to remember everything the attorney had prepped her to say enforced that belief.

End of story.

[markcfl1]

End of story is right. The state''s charges of abuse are falling apart. Two so-called children have been "discovered" to be adults- one of them 22 years old. The caller has never been identified, yet a mystery woman appears in Colorado that used the phone number that started this tyranny. No charges have been filed, but the state will find that these mothers, based on their religious beliefs, could have been better parents and keep them from their children. This action meets the United Nations definition of genocide.
Visit www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
for a clear explanation.

The state sanctioned abuse of these families has only begun.

[jo1370]

CPS has said the goal is to reunify the families by April.......
cps and the judges in texas have already decided what is going to happen....it doesn''t matter what these parents do they will not have custody of their children for a least a year...if ever...by that time the children will be lost in the system...and everyone will be told that they are adjusting well and they will never be sent back ...as long as dps degreeds it ...it is law....look at what has happened so far....

[darnedsocks]

WELL, OF COURSE THEY ARE VAGUE....THIS WHOLE DEBACLE IS STILL IN THE HEARING STAGE...NOTHING HAS GONE TO TRIAL YET. DUH.

[ccdsswrkr08]

the only abuse going on here, is the abuse of those children at the hands of "family" and "friends".

[ccdsswrkr08]

Well said Nancy_Naive

[faith_in_w]

You liberals need to give those children back. They need to wear prarie dresses, not thongs!

[darnedsocks]

WOW...THAT POLYGAMIST WOMAN APPEARS TO BE SO IGNORANT. SHE SOUNDS LIKE SHE HAS A 4TH GRADE EDUCATION. IT SOUNDS LIKE SHE IS BEING "SPOON FED" WHAT TO SAY. OBVIOUSLY, POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW AND IS NOT "THE AMERICAN WAY."

[darnedsocks]

WHAT''S REALLY WEIRD TOO, IS THAT THEY ARE MOANING AND GROANING ABOUT NOT HAVING THEIR CHILDREN, BUT AS SOON AS THEY GET THEM BACK, THEY WILL KICK MOST OF THE BOYS OUT OF THEIR COMPOUND ANYWAY... SO THEY CAN''T COMPETE FOR THE WOMEN. THE BOYS BEING UNEDUCATED AND UNABLE TO CARE FOR THEMSELVES. THESE POLYGAMISTS APPEAR TO BE HYPOCRITES.

[markcfl1]

Nancy_Naive
I did not realize Texas has annexed parts of Utah and Arizona, i.e. Hildale and Colorado City. I thought this story was about the children in Texas. You have thoroughly confused the facts and location. I hope you don''t also believe the state of Texas bought FDLS a $6.5M compound, or maybe they did and want it back.

[markcfl1]

the only abuse going on here, is the abuse of those children at the hands of "family" and "friends".

Obviously a comment by a CCDSS/CPF storm trooper.

[wsjutah]

As all members of this most holy sect have to come to realize, this is just another test of your faith in your prophet. As you know your prophet is the only one God speaks to and thru. You must remain faithful to your prophet, only the faithful and worthy will remain to achieve Zion after these unholy outsiders have desecreated your children. You must continue to be fruitful and multiply, only the fruitful will achieve Zion. You must multiply as your prophet will be released from his false imprisonment in the near future and must have many more jewels for his crown at that time. Many followers will not make it thru this test, that is as it should be as this will prove they were never worthy of Zion. Only the most faithful believers will remain and achieve Zion. Stay true to your prophet, do not give into these unholy "authorities". Your prophet is the only one God speaks to and thru.

[homespunlady]

The NATIVE AMERICANS know all about THIS kind of thing!
THEY''VE had their kids RIPPED FROM THEM for generations because they are "different".

They''re now digging up HIDDEN GRAVES of those native American kids and the ABUSE and EXPERIMENTS they were subjected to are still "not to be talked about" in our "polite society".

You know the really weird thing this time?
I''m hearing THE SAME people that have NO PROBLEM defending DEPLORABLE FOSTER CARE and claiming to be "righteous" DEFENDING NAZI-STYLE MASS ROUND UPS and GLOATING over the people SUFFERING from this!

NOTHING like SETTING A PRECEDENT FOR MASS ROUND-UPS and CONCENTRATION CAMPS under the GUISE of "righteousness".

The Black/Latino WOMAN in Colorado WAS "COACHED" TOO.

Her HOAX CALL to a "DENVER SHELTER" RUN BY A "former member" gave her ALL THE INFORMATION she NEEDED to GET REWARDED FOR HER SICKNESS and CREATE CHAOS in the lives of others.

When I heard a Texas CPS person ADVERTISING that they had acquired hundreds of "adoptable (WHITE) children" on NPR the DAY AFTER the RAID - it''s was obvious something SMELLED like BABY SELLING!!!

[homespunlady]

NEXT UP - the Kids that are being RAISED BY ***?

THAT is a "WEIRD AND UNNATURAL *** PRACTICE" TOO!!

THE finally EVERYBODY accused of using anything other than the "missionary position"!

Then as far as RELIGION - the Muslim religion has allowed POLYGAMY - don''t some of the SAUDI ELITE have more than 1 wife?

MAYBE we should send our BEDROOM POLICE to SAUDI like we have our OIL POLICE into Iraq!

AFTER THAT all those WELFARE babies of babies "DAYCARE CENTERS" at the PUBLIC SCHOOLS that are springing up ALL OVER the south and Midwest!!

SOMEONE had to be the "unnamed father" of those Middle School GIRLS that NOBODY ADMITS ARE THERE -because they are indiscriminate breeding "EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS".

[homespunlady]

Nancy-Naive

Can you arrange a RAID on several MORE TOWNS in the South and Midwest?

THOSE DARNED EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS are BREEDING LIKE RABBITS around here and THEY ARE ALL ON WELFARE TOO!!!

WHY should MY tax dollar go to some "public school" DAYCARE CENTER for THOSE WELFARE CASES?

If they want to multiply that way it''s THEIR PROBLEM and I should NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT! RECOUP the money through SELLING through "cps regulations" THEIR SPAWN!

TOO many danged CHRISTIANS messing up this country already. Maybe the SAUDIS would like to BUY some.

THEY have to be DOING SOMETHING WRONG - JUST RAID them FIRST stick them in CAMPS and SELL their babies to "more deserving" same *** couples!

[barbaraf4]

Texas deciding whether or not to honor the families and return the children is similar to a psychotic and abusive game my father used to play. It was the "If you HAD played your cards right" game. You never knew you were involved in a "game" until he would come up with something like "if you had played your cards right, I would have paid your way through college." You never knew what you had done or not done that disqualified you - you simply knew there was no pleasing my father. What will these families have to do to please the Courts? Will they have a list of requirements or will the Courts simply make it up as they go along.

[johelia]

Have any of you ever been in a foster home? Most are pretty bad and hardly a loving family atmosphere. I think they should arrest the elders who were farming the kids off and give the children back to the mothers. I don''t see how being in a foster home is better for them.

[mollydtt]

Religion is no excuse for breaking the laws of the government of whatever state they live in. Also "Religion" seems to be an excuse for not knowing anything or thinking a thought other than what has been brainwashed into them. I''d *like* to think that religious beliefs are a conscious process, but there is definitely no thinking going on among these cult members.

[element51]

I have followed this story since it broke and I said from the beginning that these cult members would win. From most of the posts here it appears that I was right. The facts have been distorted and the crimes that were going on there have been forgotten. So let them have their kids back so they can continue to abuse them and make sure that they get their welfare checks on time. All in the name of "religion". (fake religion)

[homespunlady]

Speaking of crimes.

HOW is it that a 14/15/16 year old boy can "knock up" a half dozen UNDERAGE girls say "let THEM worry about it" and GET AWAY WITH it WITHOUT ANY repercussions?

OH, I forgot he''s "JUST SOWING HIS WILD OATS"!

Yep, ABSENTEE PARENTING is SO GOOD for our society.

[whatsnext987]

"CPS has said the goal is to reunify the families by April. "

April!!! The poor children have to spend over a year in a foster home. How many psychological problems will this cause?

The rest of us beware. Lets hope CPS does not suspect you of anything. At the drop of a hat, they can take you children away, and keep them for a year (minimum) at their whim. Be afraid.

[l04620048]

It is wrong when your family can be pulled away from you by the Government.Families need to stay together.They should have only pulled the girl inquestion and her family only.They should have than conducted an investagation.Our government is out growing our rights.

[homespunlady]

From what I''ve seen of "foster care" it is LITTLE MORE that DOG POUNDS FOR KIDS - some may be "humane", some may be deathtraps waiting to happen but it''s a case of Russian Roulette for those that "get caught up" in that setup.

[johelia]

I''m sure no foster family will want to give up the free slavery they have in these kids. It''s disgusting that they are putting these kids in worse situations--FOSTER HOMES ARE ABUSIVE AND THE KIDS ARE TREATED LIKE OUTSIDERS! Anyone who thinks the opposite has obviously never been in a foster home. It''s probably 5% that treat the kids well and like one of the family--most people do it for the money and spend nothing on the foster kids, sometimes they''ll eat well and feed the foster kids garbage. You people who think this is a good idea need to wake up! And, citizens of Texas, get ready for a big bill to foot all this foster care for all those children. Bush cut the federal care in 2005 so the state has to pick up the entire bill.

[l04620048]

It''s wrong,child abuse,but by taking all the children away.That is abuse to the children,they will be scarred from this.How many are Innocent.

[homespunlady]

104620048
The "girl in question" seems to be a 33 Year old WOMAN with a HISTORY of FALSE ABUSE claims in COLORADO.
The PHONE that was used to make those calls was TRACED BACK TO HER and she''s being prosecuted for FALSE CLAIMS in that state concerning a supposed father that supposedly locked her in the basement and abused her.

The CONNECTION seems to be that she attempted such a call to a DENVER shelter run by a "former member" of that group. AFTER that set of calls she somehow acquired ALL the INFORMATION to contact the Texas people.

What a COINCIDENCE.

[l04620048]

Just think if the gov. came to your house and took your kids,on speculation.How would you feel.The leagal battle would out number you,100/1.Your innocent and you can''t see your kids.You don''t know whats happing to them?.That would be abuse there.

[l04620048]

It is wrong when the government you establish becomes more powerful than the People.It was wrong.This was handled wrong.

[sunsetmom3]

No matter how odd these people and their religion may seem to some of us, taking all these children from their parents with no real proof of any abuse is just horrible.

Because they may practice polygamy - is that the reason their kids were taken? So, should the govt step up and take kids away from parents who are unmarried but have multiple *** partners? Should the govt automatically take all babies away from teen mothers or girls who get pregnant by older men?

The Texas govt was wrong and we should all be concerned about their actions. No child should ever be taken from their parents and put in foster care if it can be avoided. I am a mother of 3 and I cannot imagine the govt deciding they don''t like my religion so they decide they can take my kids away from me. It would scar my children for life.

[homespunlady]

So, as they "discovered" that in at least "4 cases" the DESPERATE mothers agreed to say they were "Underage" in order to STAY WITH THEIR KIDS even though they might be found out and TORN FROM their kids - and WORSE - like ALL THE OTHER MOTHERS had been subjected to.....

WHAT did they do to the MOTHERS that UNDER DURESS - lied?

Rip the kids away? TOSS THE MOTHER OUT? Prosecute for false a statement?

Funny they DON''T mention THAT.

Personally, if I was in that situation and the choice was having my babies TORN FROM me - I''d do the SAME THING!

[brianp55]

The Stepford Wives.

[l04620048]

The right thing to do is find the families and put them in the same city with visitation rights given to the parents.Visitation rights should be monitored.
Untill all can be cleared.This should be paid by the CPS services.Sometimes I think CPS does this so the CPS service will keep its Allowed Yearly Guaranteed Money by the Government for it services.

[husein_pasha]

The poor children!

[pnut2010]

Well said Sunsetmom3,

These people should have a right to be left alone, practicing their religion in whatever manner they choose. Government intervention is only appropriate when a practice is against the established law. This WAS appropriate in the case of their leader Jeff''s who facilitated incest and rape, but it does not justify punishing those who are innocent. Most people find their practices abnormal, but it is no reason to punish them unless they have broken the law.

The Texas government has a huge problem on their hands, mostly because they have not been able to make any specific accusations, and the only evidence of wrongdoing came in the form of an anonymous phone call. On top of this they have handled their treatment of these people poorly, including taking away a religious text. This is something that is not denied anyone convicted of a crime, let alone those who are not formally charged with anything. There is clear religious persecution from the government here.

[l04620048]

I thought you were Innocent until proven Guilty.

[homespunlady]

The rape ranchers want their livestock back.
Posted by dragonwagon5 at 01:21 PM : May 20, 2008

WHICH ones?

BIG government CPS?

BIG corporate FARMS of "BOYS ranches" and "Girl''s Ranches" that have been "tattled on" by the "victims" for FLYING the kids around the country to "service" elite perverts?

Or just the WELL PAYING "infertile" that have been CUT OFF by the FOREIGN countries from PURCHASING their "ACCESSORY KIDS" and need a talk show moneymaker?

[husein_pasha]

The worst is that the girls don`t understand that they may be free

[markcfl1]

Finally, some sanity in the comment zone from the most recent contributors.

I am not a mother, but I guess if I married another male I could adopt a child and act like one, instead I am the married father of four children. I do, however, know this- there is nothing more sacred in any religion or lack of, than the bond between mother and child. Put aside the religious beliefs for a moment and return the children to their mothers. Stop treating these children like puppies that are taken from their mothers and distributed throughout Texas. Heck, puppies probably have more rights. If the fathers have committed child abuse, charge them as such and allow them a defense. If this ends in forced education for these mothers, Texas will have spent more taxpayer money than hiring Dr. Phil to personally counsel each one.

[homespunlady]

The "girl in question" seems to be a 33 Year old (black/Latino by the looks of it) WOMAN with a HISTORY of FALSE ABUSE claims in COLORADO SPRINGS, COLORADO. (home of TED HAGGARD''s OLD EVANGELICAL CHURCH).

The PHONE that was used to make those calls was TRACED BACK TO HER and she''''s being prosecuted for FALSE CLAIMS in that state concerning a supposed father that supposedly locked her in the basement and abused her.

The CONNECTION seems to be that she attempted such a call to a DENVER shelter run by a FEMALE "former member" of that group (apparently there are PLENTY of FEMALE "former members" - contrary to the propaganda that they "can''t escape").

AFTER that set of calls she somehow acquired ALL the INFORMATION to contact the Texas people.

What a COINCIDENCE.

[bestillandno]

homespunlady,

I think I fully understand some of your points about government interference and CPS getting carried away, but do you honestly think that young girls were not forced into marriages and s e x with older men? If you actually think that was not going on here, you are naive. Do you think that these girls actually wanted these men climbing on top of them?

[yongamerica]

Considering these parents have done everything they could to cause deception and confusion in this case, their level of cooperation is inversely proportionate to the length this mess can get sorted out.

Oh they are soooo cleaver.

[l04620048]

Be Stillandno
No I don''t,but at the same time do you all 600 hundred children were abused.I believe there are bad people out there and it is proven fact.The CPS should have handle this better.If there were children that were abused,pull them away from the abuse and punish the accused,but do not punish the Inoocent.There are families that are as startlied as you and I.

[markcfl1]

Once again yongamerica knows everything as fact, but what is cleaver???

[husein_pasha]

The problem is trhat many of these girls don`t understand their poor quality of life and lack of rights

[l04620048]

Ther right to be with there parents.

[homespunlady]

BeStillandno,

If some as far as we know IMAGINARY (and blown out of proportion by dirty minds parading as "righteous")scenario is the problem - WHY NOT FIND OUT FIRST the take appropriate action?

RAPE BED in the church - PROVEN FALSE

16 year old GIRL with 2 Kids CALLING for help - PROVEN FALSE

The ACCUSED MAN - NOT EVEN in the STATE for YEARS - PROVEN FALSE.

The "TAKE EM ALL AND LET GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS SORT THEM OUT YEARS FROM NOW" style ARMED raid?
PROVEN ON TAPE and ALL the subsequent back page SLOW ADMISSIONS from the PERPETRATORS of this FIASCO.

This WAS AMERICA - home of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY - NOT ANYMORE.

[husein_pasha]

Their right are to be out of this sect!

[husein_pasha]

My son graduated from high school yesterday

[homespunlady]

as far as "poor quality of life" that keeps being brought up concerning these people I DON''T see it. FRESH vegetables, clean air and water, SPOTLESS living conditions, exercise rather than OBESITY and the DISEASES that go with it.

To the kids of the "CRACKHEADS down the street" in this country and all the LATCH-KEY NEGLECTED KIDS that are "experimenting" with gangs, drugs, drunk hangouts, inter-course, STDs and worse - having such a home might just be more than the could hope for.

Heck the local school district has so MUCH of a "problem " that they''re offering FREE PENICILLIN SHOTS to the kids and from what I''ve heard NOT telling the parents. They already have DAYCARE for the ILLEGITIMATE babies of the MIDDLE and High school girls.

[homespunlady]

Husein
Congratulations to you and you son. Making it through High school without dropping out IS an accomplishment to be proud of.