Autism-Vaccine Link Gets Day In Court

Families Take On Mainstream Medicine, Claim Vaccines Caused Neurological Disorders

(AP)  Parents claiming that childhood vaccines cause autism should not be awarded by the courts when the scientific community has already rejected any link, U.S. government lawyers argued Monday on the first day of a federal hearing.

Overall, nearly 4,900 families have filed claims with the U.S. Court of Claims alleging that vaccines caused autism and other neurological problems in their children. Lawyers for the families are presenting three different theories of how vaccines caused autism. A hearing concerning one of those theories began Monday and is expected to last through the month. The theory at issue is whether vaccines containing the preservative thimerosal caused autism.

Lynn Ricciardella, a Justice Department lawyer, said that the theory has not moved beyond the realm of pure speculation. She noted that such organizations as the Institute of Medicine and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have rejected any link between thimerosal and autism.

"There is no scientific debate," Ricciardella said. "The debate is over."

Thimerosal has been removed in recent years from standard childhood vaccines, except flu vaccines that are not packaged in single-doses. The CDC says single-dose flu shots currently are available only in limited quantities.

Under a two-decades-old program, individuals claiming injury from a vaccine must file a petition for "no-fault" compensation with the United States Court of Federal Claims. The secretary of Health and Human Services replaces the vaccine manufacturer or vaccine administrator to defend the claim.

Two 10-year-old boys from Portland, Ore., will serve as test cases to determine whether thousands of families can be compensated. Attorneys for the boys will attempt to show they were happy, healthy and developing normally - but, after being exposed to vaccines with thimerosal, they began to regress.

To win, the attorneys for the two boys, William Mead and Jordan King, will have to show that it is more likely than not that the vaccine actually caused the injury, which they described as regressive autism.

Tom Powers, one of their attorneys, acknowledged that the evidence showing thimerosal led to regressive autism was indirect and circumstantial. Still, it is clear in the case of the two boys that they were normal and typical well after their first birthday. Only after the full round of vaccines had been administered, did they begin showing symptoms of autism.

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Exclusive: A prominent doctor tells CBS News we shouldn't rule out a possible link between childhood vaccines and autism.

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The attorneys for the families said that a study in monkeys showed that mercury could ignite "neuroinflammation" in the brain, and such inflammation is the hallmark of somebody with autism. They also noted that previous studies of thimerosal were focused on autism, rather than on a more rare, specific form of the disorder that they described as regressive autism.

The first witness for the families, Sander Greenland, a professor at the UCLA School of Public Health, said that published studies he reviewed failed to separate regressive autism from other types of autism when looking at thimerosal, thus they allow for a substantial association of the vaccines with clearly regressive autism.

Under the vaccine compensation program, officials titled special masters serve as the trial judges. The hearing that began Monday involved three special masters who will hear the evidence and determine whether thimerosal belongs on the list of causes for regressive autism. The ruling are appealable to the Court of Federal Claims.

Plaintiffs were instructed to designate three test cases for each of their theories - nine cases in all. The two cases beginning Monday are among the three that focus on the second theory of causation: that thimerosal-containing vaccines alone cause autism. If the families are successful, they could be entitled to damages that cover lost income after the person turns 18 and up to $250,000 for pain and suffering.

Many members of the medical community are skeptical of the families' claims. They worry that the claims about the dangers of vaccines could cause some people to forego vaccines that prevent illness.

"I think that what's so endearing to me about the anti-vaccine people is they're perfectly willing to go from one hypothesis to the next without a backward glance," said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Autism is a developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of life and affects a person's ability to communicate and interact with others. Dr. Andrew Gerber, a psychiatrist, said that medical experts don't have a comprehensive understanding of what causes autism, but they do know there is a strong hereditary component.

Toxins from the environment could play a role, but currently, data does not support that they do, Gerber said.

[lucasnico]

So I''''m open to be convinced - I really am. But it will take more than anecdotal correlational evidence or conversations with doctors. I''''ll close with a very simple question - if there really is a link between MMR vaccine and autism, why are all of these epidemiological studies missing it?

Posted by rational_1

because the government paid for these studies. the same government who tried to sneak in an indemnification clause into the patriot act for Ely Lilly......the company that put thimerosal in the MMR.
Not once, but twice our government tried to sneak this through...why? Because that''s who all of the lawsuits are against and they are HUGE contributors to both sides of the political process.

You haven''t read anything linking thimerosal to brain cancer?? Are you kidding, or just averting your eyes.

Finally, the best way to do research is to get off your duff, out of your soft office, and TALK to doctors, TALK to researchers, actually TALK to people.
The reason professors get such a bad rap is because of the attitude you are displaying...........geez, I read some stuff about it, what else do I need to do?

[rational_1]

Did you know that for the past several years, kids who do develop measels have a cough, rash, fever and then their top layer of skin peels off their hands and feet.
Posted by looking4help at 06:54 PM : May 15, 2008

I know (most of what you wrote). Side effects are the major problem with most therapeutics. They affect compliance for people taking anti-hypertensives or anti-psychotics for example. Much drug research is oriented towards finding new compounds that treat the ailment with a minimum of side effects. One thing I''m interested in researching from the point of view of therapeutics is to develop novel anti-anxiety agents that aren''t sedating (a major side effect). So, what you said about side effects is true, but by no means unique to vaccines. Biology is complicated and it''s tough to find compounds that do just what you want and nothing else. Ultimately you have to look at the risk:benefit ratios. If the consequences of vaccine non-compliance weren''t as severe (eg. 1 in 1000 get measles encephalitis and a third either die or have permanent brain damage) I''d say ditch them. But I think the consequences to our kids would be severe if vaccine compliance dropped (just look up what happened in the UK after the Wakefield paper came out in 98).

[rational_1]

I appreciate what you are saying. But I don''''t get what you keep saying about kids loosing their teeth after starting kindergarden. I mean..what does that have to do with anything??
Posted by looking4help at 06:54 PM : May 15, 2008

I was just using that as a way of showing that correlation is not the same as causality. Kids lose their teeth at about the age of 5 or 6, which is the time they also start kindergarten. You could see how one might conclude that starting kindergarten is somehow causing the kids'' teeth to fall out (it''s a nonsensical example but easy to understand). But those are two completely unrelated events that just happen to occur at about the same time in a child''s life. The same might well be true for the time at which kids get the MMR vaccine and then also when signs of autism first become apparent. One might conclude that MMR caused the autism, but the two events may just be temporally correlated like in my kindergarten example. Correlation between the two is easy to spot, demonstrating causality much harder. That''s what the epidemiological studies I mentioned tried to do, without success.

[looking4help-2009]

To rational_1:
I appreciate what you are saying. But I don''t get what you keep saying about kids loosing their teeth after starting kindergarden. I mean..what does that have to do with anything?? EVERY child looses their baby teeth and sooner or later grows their permanent teeth. NOT every child developes autism...Thank godness for that.
I am not saying that vaccines should be "outlawed" but I think that some of them are completley unnecessary. I mean some of these vaccines weren''t developed and approves until MANY years after the threat of the virus was over. Did you know that for the past several years, kids who do develop measels have a cough, rash, fever and then their top layer of skin peels off their hands and feet. It''s all over in 9 days or less. I admit that this still would be no walk in the park, but being sick for 9 days and then having lifetime immunity is still better than havinga lifde altering affect from getting a shot that is not necessary. Did you also know that the rubella vaccine contains aborted fetus tissue and can cause accute arthritis? I could go on and on, but my point is, maybe the shots should be re-evaluated and if nothing else, spread out so that a surge of vaccines arent injected into our kids bodies so many time within such a small amount of time.

[rational_1]

looking4help, I''ve thought a bit more about what you wrote. Before I wrote that there might be kids who are predisposed to getting autism and might be very sensitive to some environmental trigger (maybe a vaccine or maybe something else). On reflection, those kids would have to constitute a very small minority of kids who get autism and here''s why. If the epidemiologists are correct in stating that there is no statistical association between getting the MMR vaccine and developing autism, another way of stating the same thing is that the same percentage of kids get autism if they don''t get MMR as those who do get the vaccine. If a sizable subset of kids were exquisitely sensitive to MMR, I''d expect to see that show up in the statistics, and it doesn''t. So, ultimately you can''t conclude anything about any one case - that''s why epidemiology involves the study of groups.

One thing we really haven''t talked much about are the consequences of skipping vaccinations, and these could be serious. Polio is no longer feared as it used to be - who remembers iron lung machines? Tens of millions died due to Spanish flu after WWI. Even measles can lead to encephalitis and death. So, if we are going to limit or stop vaccinations I think we need to be doing so based on solid scientific data. Last point, and this is primarily for the die-hard anti-vaccination types out there - would you get an anti-rabies vaccine if you were bitten by a skunk or bat?

[rational_1]

Maybe the vaccines ARE linked to autism, and there IS a way to prove it, but that way just hasn''''t been discovered yet. Isn''''t that what this whole trial is all about? Maybe it''''s not just the simple vaccine, but the fact that this one shot carries many vaccines and all of those combined is just to much for some children''''s body to handle.
Posted by looking4help at 09:46 AM : May 15, 2008

Yes, you may be right - it could be that some children due, to their genetic profiles, might be especially sensitive to something like MMR. Or they might be especially sensitive to something else in their environments, such as pesticides. This could be a tough nut to crack. I think parents make an association between the vaccine and the onset of autism because the latter often fairly closely follows the former in time. But like I said before, you can also show that children lose their teeth after they start kindergarten and there''s no causal association there.

Scientists work by proposing hypotheses (such as thiomersal causes autism) and then try to disprove those hypothesis through their experiments. So, one hypothesis would be that autism incidence is higher in children exposed to MMR than those who aren''t. But, at least in the studies I dug up they aren''t, so the next question would be why are the kids NOT getting MMR getting autism at the same rates?

[rational_1]

plenty has been published on the effects of thimerosal.....keep reading (and getting out of the office to actually talk with people would also help)
Posted by lucasnico at 09:59 AM : May 15, 2008

I did, and didn''t get anywhere except for one study that concluded the evidence against thimerosal was weaker than the evidence against the MMR vaccine itself in the link to autism. Seriously, if you don''t believe me, go to the Pubmed web site and type MMR and autism in the search engine and you''ll get almost 200 hits. What you''ll find are a lot of epidemiological studies published failing to find the link between MMR and autism. It doesn''t mean it''s not there (can''t prove a negative) but it sure doesn''t sound at all encouraging for further study either.

One thing I did find was a couple of studies showing that prenatal exposure to thimerosal might have neurodevelopmental consequences. But MMR isn''t given prenatally, so...

So I''m open to be convinced - I really am. But it will take more than anecdotal correlational evidence or conversations with doctors. I''ll close with a very simple question - if there really is a link between MMR vaccine and autism, why are all of these epidemiological studies missing it?

[lucasnico]

So, although you seem to have a real issue with the published literature on a putative MMR vaccine/autism link (maybe because it doesn''''t back up your personal belief), I think if you really want to promote your view you should encourage the people who share your belief to publish their data showing a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Posted by rational_1 at 01:17 AM

plenty has been published on the effects of thimerosal.....keep reading (and getting out of the office to actually talk with people would also help)

[looking4help-2009]

To rational_1 and lucasnico,

Although I can agree with a few pionts that each of you are trying to make, I just wonder why each of you are so very set on only going on "what the experts say". I mean yes they are experts, and yes therefore they are SUPPOSED to know, but haven''t either of you wondered about the things that are out there that NO ONE has found yet? I mean, Maybe the vaccines ARE linked to autism, and there IS a way to prove it, but that way just hasn''t been discovered yet. Isn''t that what this whole trial is all about? Maybe it''s not just the simple vaccine, but the fact that this one shot carries many vaccines and all of those combined is just to much for some children''s body to handle. I believe that this will be proven eventually. I mean, I have never seen a lot of things that are in this world for myself.....like a million dollars, or "life on Mars" or anything like that..but that doesn''t mean it doesn''t exist. There is no "scientific evidence" that God exists either, but that doesn''t mean it''s not so. I just think that people need to quit relying 100% on what''s proven now and realize that new "evidence" is out all the time, and that many years ago there was little things "proven" but look at us now......think of what can be proven if the right people keep trying.

[rational_1]

You stand on dangerous ground when your source of opinion is only in what you read.
Posted by lucasnico at 12:44 AM : May 15, 2008

I just want to elaborate a bit on what I wrote earlier. A couple of days ago I read a review article that came out in Dec. 2007 in Clin. Pharmacol. Ther. written by an epidemiologist at a research institute in Georgia, bearing the title ''Vaccines and autism: evidence does not support a causal association.'' From reading that article I got a snapshot of the current state of the field in terms of where the balance of evidence exists in published data on a possible link between vaccines and autism. I also can be quite sure that before this paper was published it was reviewed by either two or three people with some expertise in the autism field, who probably made a number of suggestions for the paper''s improvement. If the author completely ignored one side of the argument in terms of citing evidence, the reviewers would have nailed him for that.

So, although you seem to have a real issue with the published literature on a putative MMR vaccine/autism link (maybe because it doesn''t back up your personal belief), I think if you really want to promote your view you should encourage the people who share your belief to publish their data showing a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

[rational_1]

There are tens of thousands of cases exactly like my son''''s. Maybe you missed the doctors who have spoken to the real possibility of the link between the MMR and triggering, in some children, autism. There was one featured on this very website last night.
You stand on dangerous ground when your source of opinion is only in what you read.
Posted by lucasnico at 12:43 AM : May 15, 2008

So if you talk to a physician one-on-one and he tells you his opinion about autism, that''s superior to a publication in a journal where the statements made by the authors have been subjected to peer-review? Everyone has an opinion, but there''s a big difference between saying something and publishing it where you don''t get away with saying things unless you are on very solid ground.
If thimerosal really is what was responsible for your son''s autism then its removal from the MMR vaccine should be leading to decreases in autism incidence; do you have any evidence this is occurring?

Even if it''s not thimerosal but the MMR vaccine itself, so far at least the published data don''t seem to be indicating that. Could it be that in your son''s particular case there was some phenomenally rare genetics/environmental interaction that triggered autism after the MMR vaccine? I don''t know - you can''t prove a negative. But, in epidemiological studies on populations as a whole, the vaccine/autism link seems pretty tenuous. And there are potentially serious consequences if kids aren''t immunized.

[lucasnico]

But, I''''m really curious about is just what research you have done in the autism/vaccine area, since you seem to require it of me.

Posted by rational_1

More trips to doctors than you could count. More meetings with researchers than I can remember. On the board of the M.I.N.D. Institute.....have talked with countless physicians and clinicians.
Maybe you''d like to see videos of my normally developing son......until,at 15 months, he had the MMR, with thimerosal.
There are tens of thousands of cases exactly like my son''s. Maybe you missed the doctors who have spoken to the real possibility of the link between the MMR and triggering, in some children, autism. There was one featured on this very website last night.

You stand on dangerous ground when your source of opinion is only in what you read.

[lucasnico]

But, I''''m really curious about is just what research you have done in the autism/vaccine area, since you seem to require it of me.

Posted by rational_1

More trips to doctors than you could count. More meetings with researchers than I can remember. On the board of the M.I.N.D. Institute.....have talked with countless physicians and clinicians.
Maybe you''d like to see videos of my normally developing son......until,at 15 months, he had the MMR, with thimerosal.
There are tens of thousands of cases exactly like my son''s. Maybe you missed the doctors who have spoken to the real possibility of the link between the MMR and triggering, in some children, autism. There was one featured on this very website last night.

You stand on dangerous ground when your source of opinion is only in what you read.

[rational_1]

Again, this is the problem......point, click, read.... but don''''t go out and do any real research on your own.
Posted by lucasnico at 12:00 AM : May 15, 2008

Yes, I do. I have 5 graduate students, NIH and State funding and we publish our work in peer-reviewed journals like Molecular Pharmacology and the Journal of Biological Chemistry. However, my research is not in the autism area - like I said before, this article got me interested so I read up on it.

But, I''m really curious about is just what research you have done in the autism/vaccine area, since you seem to require it of me.

[rational_1]

Maybe you could start offering movie reviews without actually seeing the movie.........just read what others have written and use that. After all, you don''''t actually do, you teach.
Posted by lucasnico at 12:00 AM : May 15, 2008

So, what do you have to offer to this whole debate?

[lucasnico]

I already freely admitted that I''''m not an autism researcher, just someone whose interest was piqued enough to look into this field by this article. I haven''''t ''''interviewed'''' anyone in the autism field, just as I haven''''t interviewed physicists studying dark energy or molecular biologists studying Huntingtons Disease. But that doesn''''t make their work any less credible to me either.

Basically, like everyone else here, I''''m just expressing my opinions on this board - unlike most I actually try to cite some evidence to support what I say.

Posted by rational_1 at 02:08 PM : May 14, 2008


Again, this is the problem......point, click, read.... but don''t go out and do any real research on your own.

Maybe you could start offering movie reviews without actually seeing the movie.........just read what others have written and use that. After all, you don''t actually do, you teach.

[rlford3]

PAUL OFFIT''S COMMENTS SHOULD NOT BE INCLUDED (AND CERTAINLY NOT HIGHLIGHTED) IN ANY ARTICLE ON THIS TOPIC. HE IS ONLY SELF INTERESTED AS HE IS IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GAIN A PATENT FOR THE NEW ROTAVIRUS VACCINE. THERE IS A GROSS CONFLICT OF INTEREST HERE.

[rational_1]

How many people have you spoken with from CAN, FEAT, The M.I.N.D. Institute?
How many IEP''''s have you attended? How many behaviorists have you interviewed?
Posted by lucasnico at 06:03 PM : May 13, 2008

Of course anyone can read - that''s how you learn from the work of others. The papers I cited were ones in which people qualified to be researching autism published their work in a peer-reviewed manner. I read a few papers, and going by weight of evidence presented, concluded like they did that there is no link between vaccinations and autism, and if anything there are serious dangers to children who are not vaccinated. So, why should I believe them? For the same reasons I believe the work of other qualified people who render opinions, be they physicians, engineers or physicists. Who else exactly would you have me believe? And why those people instead of the guys who published in NEJM or Pediatrics?

I already freely admitted that I''m not an autism researcher, just someone whose interest was piqued enough to look into this field by this article. I haven''t ''interviewed'' anyone in the autism field, just as I haven''t interviewed physicists studying dark energy or molecular biologists studying Huntingtons Disease. But that doesn''t make their work any less credible to me either.

Basically, like everyone else here, I''m just expressing my opinions on this board - unlike most I actually try to cite some evidence to support what I say.

[looking4help-2009]

For all of you out there who are completley against the idea of ANY vaccine injurues, let me quote Upton Sinclair in saying....
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon NOT understanding it.

[looking4help-2009]

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO MAKE THESE WORDS REACH EVERY PARENT IN THE WORLD WITH A VACCINE INJURED CHILD OR EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CONSIDERING GETTING OR NOT GETTING THEIR CHILD VACCINATED...AS OF 2004, OUR CHILDREN ARE GETTING 51 VACCINES BY THE AGE OF 6 MONTHS..AND 77 VACCINES BY SCHOOL AGE. THESE ARE NOT ACTUAL JABS OF A NEEDLE, BUT MOST OF THOSE JABS CONTAIN APROX. 3 VACCINES EACH.AND IF YOUR CHILD IS GETTING THE FLU VACCINE EVERY YEAR, THAT RAISES THE # FROM 77 TO 95 BY THE TIME THEY START SCHOOL. AND THE GOV. WANTS TO AD ANOTHER 20 VACCINES BY THE YEAR 2010.
ALSO, IT''S NOT JUST THE MERCURY THAT WE NEED TO WORRY ABOU..IT''S ALSO THE ALUMINUM..WHICH BY THE WAY IS STILL IN ALL DTP SHOTS, AS WELL AS HEPB, HIB AND PREVNAR. A LOT OF THESE VACCINES THAT ARE "REQUIRED" SHOULDN''T EVEN ME BECAUSE THE DISEASES THEY ARE MADE FOR HARDLY EVEN EXIST ANYMORE!! I SUGGEST DOING THE RESEARCH ON ALL VACCINES..GETING THE ONES YOU WANT YOUR KID TO HAVE, AND FILLING OUT A MEDICAL EXEMPTION FORM FOR THE REST..WHICH EVERY STATE HAS, BUT WON''T TELL YOU ABOUT UNLESS YOU FORCE THE ISSUE...LOOK IT UP