Fighting For God And Country

Sunday Morning: Are Service Members Discriminated Against By Evangelists Within The U.S. Military?

(CBS)  A new documentary examines religious discrimination in the U.S. military. Should American forces be fighting for God as well as country? Here's Susan Spencer of 48 Hours.

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When it comes to the role of religion in the military, a famous saying from World War II seems to sum things up:

"There are no atheists in foxholes."

Immortalized in the 1942 film "Wake Island," the line reinforces the idea that there' s just nothing quite like bombs and bullets to convert a non-believer.

Whoever decided that owes Jeremy Hall an apology.

Army Specialist Hall was a turret gunner who has been deployed to Iraq twice. His Humvee came under fire - a bullet nearly killed him - but he didn't find God, and he wasn't looking…

"I'm an atheist," Hall told Spencer. "I just don't have any belief in supernatural, any forces - deities, luck, fate, destiny - that's about it really. It's very simple."

And he says atheism has cost him. After he refused to join in a prayer, he says he was ostracized and passed over for promotion. He sued the Army for discrimination. Then he was threatened when word got out that he had filed a lawsuit.

"They had found out who I was," Hall said. "And I had about six to eight guys following me around in Qatar. And they were saying stuff like, 'atheist ass pirate,' 'faggot,' 'I'm gonna beat your ass.'"

Things got so bad the Army assigned him a full-time bodyguard.

Hall's lawsuit is the latest skirmish in the debate about whether the military has become, in essence, a Christian organization. This, in a country that has "In God we trust" on its currency, but separation of church and state in its constitution.

"You gotta be able to minister to soldiers of all different faith groups, and some who don't have faith groups," said Chaplain David Shurtleff.

Chaplain Shurtleff is based in Fort Riley, Kansas. He says protecting the rights of those non-believers is essential, but he doesn't see any harm in a voluntary prayer.

"It's a two-way street," he said. "And so, you know, the atheist soldier should be happy that some of his band of brothers were able to have that religious experience, whereas, you know, there was no pressure put on him to participate in it."

Try telling that to Mikey Weinstein.

"It's very hard to argue when we have the evidence, the clear evidence - not just implicitly, but explicitly - that we're turning our American military into government-paid Christian missionaries."

Perhaps no one in America is as angry about Jeremy Hall's situation as he is.

"In the U.S. military today, if you wanna get ahead, well, you're promoted by who you pray with," Weinstein said.

You'd be hard pressed to find a family more dedicated to military service: Weinstein's father was a distinguished graduate from the Naval Academy's class of 1953. He's a graduate of the Air Force Academy, as are both his sons and his daughter-in-law.

But in 2005 his love affair with the military came to an abrupt halt, when his son Casey experienced virulant anti-Semitism at the academy.

As documented in the film "Constantine's Sword," Casey Weinstein said, "I never heard it in high school - if people knew I was Jewish, they never made any point, never got mentioned. But once I got to the academy, I became so aware of it, that I was different."

The Pentagon investigated, and said mistakes were made, admitting to "incidents where some superior officers and some cadets were engaged in inappropriate religious behavior."

Suspecting this was but the tip of the iceberg, Weinstein started the Military Religious Freedom Foundation and got a torrent of calls.

"We just recently went over 7,500 members: active duty members of the U.S. Marine Corps, Navy, Army and Air Force, Reserve and Guard, and vets, both officers and enlisted, who have come to us, you know, begging for help."

As evidence that Christianity is being forced on soldiers, there is a promotional video from a group called the Christian Embassy shot inside the Pentagon and featuring several generals.

Then there's the Web site of the Officers Christian Fellowship, which has representatives on nearly all U.S. military bases worldwide.

"They're unabashed about it," Mikey Weinstein said. "Goal number one, they wanna see 'a spiritually transformed United States military.' Goal number two, with ambassadors for Christ - now listen to the prepositional phrase 'in uniform.' Now parenthetically that hasn't worked out too well for planet Earth the last 2,000 years."

The Air Force Academy discrimination case is the subject of a new documentary, "Constantine's Sword," in which the Academy is characterized as putting their "stamp" on conservative Christian ideology.

Oren Jacoby, the film's writer and director, said, "As a filmmaker, I like to find stories about people who have real courage."

"Going back to the Roman Empire, when Constantine first made Christianity the state religion, it's a very dangerous thing when military might and religious fervor come together, because it inflames people. It inflames hatred of the 'other.'"

Critics say being perceived as a Christian army on a crusade is especially dangerous today, lest our country be seen as engaging in a holy war.

Deputy Defense Under-secretary Bill Carr, point man on personnel issues, thinks religious freedom is always a balancing act.

"I don't see it as a major problem," Carr said. "But it is something that requires attention so that it doesn't become a problem.

"I think the important part for the military is to be inclusive," he said. "When it does gather together, if a prayer is offered, that that prayer would not be faith-specific, naming, for example, Jesus Christ or Allah, but instead would lift the spirits of those that are present."

Carr points out that the generals in that Christian Embassy video were told they were out of line. Any evangelizing, he says, is strictly against the rules.

Carr said it is his firm belief that Christianity is not pushed in the military, "except in rare cases.

"Some people don't recognize that they've made an error. That's why we coach each other in the rules of the game, so that we respect each other and respect our traditions."

But that wasn't his experience, said Jeremy Hall, whose discrimination case is winding its way through the Kansas courts.

And where does his experience leave him as far as the military goes?

"I have about a year left in the military," Hall said. "I did plan to make a career out of it. I still love my country. I still love the service. But I don't believe you can continue to work for somebody who's infringed upon your rights.

"I hope the military changes. And if it does, I might just come back in."

And whether he wins or loses in court, just for the record, that old saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" - true?

"It's not," Hall said. "Ii know plenty of atheists in foxholes."

And, he says, they can be excellent soldiers.

[nothappyatall]

YOUR god is the one who according to you- created the vile system where one animal brutally slaughters another to eat, instead of eating plants as many do.
What a stinking lousy system THAT is- all based on killing one so another eats! you sicken me, your god sickens me and your book of death and blood sickens me.
Seems to me people who have to put a pet dog to sleep to spare them pain from cancer etc are far more compassionate and loving than your god!

[nothappyatall]

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)


Wonder what Dan was smoking! maybe some hallucinogenic mushrooms or something!

[nothappyatall]

Whole Earth Can Be Seen from A Tall Mountain

Other evidence that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages. The first is in Matthew:

"[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12)

Certainly, if the earth were flat, standing atop "an exceedingly high mountain" would allow Jesus to see the whole earth, but there is no mountain tall enough to allow him to see the other side of a spherical earth. At most, one hemisphere would be seen, but not the other.

Or a Tall-Enough Tree

The other passage is in Daniel:

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

The "whole" earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth.

[nothappyatall]

he idea of a flat Earth was something manufacture by man not by G-d.

It was man who started to think they were the center of the universe.

People knew for a long time the world was round and they caculated the diameter long before Messiah walk the Earth.


Posted by keffective"

Wrong, the book claims that one can see ALL the earth from the top of a mountain. the book of death contains a variety of verses which show that The writers thought the earth was flat:

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

A sphere has no edges. Would the Job author have spoken of "edges" of the earth if he had known the earth was a sphere? Which makes more sense? The author imagined grabbing and shaking by the edges a flat earth, or the author imagined grabbing the ball of the earth by "edges" which don''t exist? Before you answer, consider what else the same author had to say about how the earth is formed:

Stamp Out the Earth Like Clay under A Seal

Clay when stamped with a seal is not rounded into a ball, but flattened, like the clay seal (ca. 3300-3000 BCE) found in Israel in 1994

This is the same author who spoke of grabbing the earth by its "edges." If the Job author had known the earth was round, would he have referred to edges which don''t exist, and would he have compared it to clay seals, which are pressed flat?

[nothappyatall]

I LOVE sin, bestiality and all earthly pleasures!
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Posted by newster1

even though you claim not to believe in Him. The reality of it all is that you hate Him, because you dont like Him having the authority over all things.

Posted by libagenda "

Au contraire moron, I hate YOU especially, and your religion and your church for the murderous slaughter and torture committed because of your book of DEATH, in the name of, to further the agenda of RELIGION.
ALL deity based religion STINKS, but since it''s been the CHRISTIANS and the religious reich *HERE* who have caused all the damage, laws, subversion, slavery, torture, witch burning etc etc I despise, hate and spit on everything your church and book of death stands for.
If your moron-in-chief had so much power as you claim then make him SHOW HIS FACE and convince everyone instantly, cant do it eh?
LOL I thought not!

YOUR moron in chief you claim is so loving and mercifull stands idly by and lets things happen like innocent animals be tortured, killed, burned, gassed or used in experiements or die of disease, starvation or preditors.
YOUR god is the one who according to you- created the vile system where one animal brutally slaughters another to eat, instead of eating plants as many do.
What a stinking lousy system THAT is- all based on killing one so another eats! you sicken me, your god sickens me and your book of death and blood sickens me

[pfagersten]

It seems like everyone wants to find an excuse to sue. If you don''t like something, sue them! Why don''t you just quit the military or ask for a transfer to another unit? Oh, perhaps it is because you won''t get the same publicity. My grandfather served, my father served, my husband served and my son is serving and none of them ever felt pressured or heard of anyone being pressured. Perhaps the whole story isn''t being told here. The comment about the danger of having religion in the armed forces really got to me. I remember reading in history about an army who were not allowed to have religious beliefs. I believe they were lead by a man named Hitler. Seems there is a greater danger to now allow those serving to practice their beliefs. Certainly there is a good number of the military who do not practice an organized religion. This country was founded on freedom of religion, now anyone who does is being persecuted. I really like Sunday Morning, but stories like this I can get on other news channels. I like your upbeat, lift the goodness of America kind of stories.

[alanrobisch]

think its time the tail be stuck on the other end of this donkey and christians be burned at the stake, tried for heresy and blasphemy, jailed for going to service on sunday and all the rest- see how YOU like the same treatment you doled out to the dumb sheeple in ages past.


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Posted by newster1 at 09:22 PM : Apr 28, 2008
+ report abuse
I think you need a brain retread

[nothappyatall]

Towards a naturalistic spirituality

In the WPM we revere and care for nature, we accept this life as our only life, and this earth as our only paradise, if we look after it. We revel in the beauty of nature and the night sky, and are full of wonder at their mystery and power.
We take the real universe and nature as our starting and finishing point, not some preconceived idea of God. We feel a profound wonder and awe for these, similar to the reverence that believers in more conventional gods feel towards their deity, but without anthropomorphic worship or belief that Nature has a mind or personality that we can influence through prayer or ritual.
Our ethics are humanistic and green, our metaphysics naturalist and scientific. To these we add the emotional and aesthetic dimensions which humans need to cope with life''s challenges and to embrace life''s joys, and to motivate their concern for nature and human welfare.
Our beliefs and values reconcile spirituality and rationality, emotion and values and environmental concern with science and respect for evidence.

see : pantheism.net/

[nothappyatall]

s this Earth your spiritual home?

Are you searching for a spiritual path that focuses on this Earth rather than some imaginary beyond, that makes saving the planet its focus not saving your eternal soul, that respects individual choice rather than pushing prejudice down people''s throats, that values reason rather than fanaticism?
Do you find it impossible to believe in supernatural beings, and difficult to conceive of anything more worthy of reverence than the beauty of nature or the power of the universe?
Do you feel a deep sense of peace and belonging and wonder in the midst of nature, in a forest, by the ocean, or on a mountain top? Are you speechless with awe when you look up at the sky on a clear moonless night and see the Milky Way strewn with stars as thick as sand on a beach? When you see breakers crashing on a rocky shore, or hear wind rustling in a poplar''s leaves, are you uplifted by the energy and creativity of existence?
If you answered yes to these questions, then you will feel thoroughly at home in the World Pantheist Movement.

[nothappyatall]

) Of course they talked about the Creator. They didn''''t know any different in 1787.

Posted by USBrit

Don''t forget they ALSO thought wrongly too I might add, that the woman was only an INCUBATOR for the man''s seed which they thought contained a baby in miniature- needing only the woman to act like a brood cow to make it germinate like a seed.
They also believed it was the woman who determined whether the baby would be a boy or girl- also wrong, lets not forget the Adams rib fable and that as a result men have one LESS rib (they dont)

But gee, SCIENCE invented the MICROSCOPE! and then SCIENCE invented astronomy and telescopes, and SCIENCE went on a quest to see the edge of this flat world and discovered surprise surprise- everything the church taught on all that was *WRONG* LOL