Fighting For God And Country

Sunday Morning: Are Service Members Discriminated Against By Evangelists Within The U.S. Military?

(CBS)  A new documentary examines religious discrimination in the U.S. military. Should American forces be fighting for God as well as country? Here's Susan Spencer of 48 Hours.

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When it comes to the role of religion in the military, a famous saying from World War II seems to sum things up:

"There are no atheists in foxholes."

Immortalized in the 1942 film "Wake Island," the line reinforces the idea that there' s just nothing quite like bombs and bullets to convert a non-believer.

Whoever decided that owes Jeremy Hall an apology.

Army Specialist Hall was a turret gunner who has been deployed to Iraq twice. His Humvee came under fire - a bullet nearly killed him - but he didn't find God, and he wasn't looking…

"I'm an atheist," Hall told Spencer. "I just don't have any belief in supernatural, any forces - deities, luck, fate, destiny - that's about it really. It's very simple."

And he says atheism has cost him. After he refused to join in a prayer, he says he was ostracized and passed over for promotion. He sued the Army for discrimination. Then he was threatened when word got out that he had filed a lawsuit.

"They had found out who I was," Hall said. "And I had about six to eight guys following me around in Qatar. And they were saying stuff like, 'atheist ass pirate,' 'faggot,' 'I'm gonna beat your ass.'"

Things got so bad the Army assigned him a full-time bodyguard.

Hall's lawsuit is the latest skirmish in the debate about whether the military has become, in essence, a Christian organization. This, in a country that has "In God we trust" on its currency, but separation of church and state in its constitution.

"You gotta be able to minister to soldiers of all different faith groups, and some who don't have faith groups," said Chaplain David Shurtleff.

Chaplain Shurtleff is based in Fort Riley, Kansas. He says protecting the rights of those non-believers is essential, but he doesn't see any harm in a voluntary prayer.

"It's a two-way street," he said. "And so, you know, the atheist soldier should be happy that some of his band of brothers were able to have that religious experience, whereas, you know, there was no pressure put on him to participate in it."

Try telling that to Mikey Weinstein.

"It's very hard to argue when we have the evidence, the clear evidence - not just implicitly, but explicitly - that we're turning our American military into government-paid Christian missionaries."

Perhaps no one in America is as angry about Jeremy Hall's situation as he is.

"In the U.S. military today, if you wanna get ahead, well, you're promoted by who you pray with," Weinstein said.

You'd be hard pressed to find a family more dedicated to military service: Weinstein's father was a distinguished graduate from the Naval Academy's class of 1953. He's a graduate of the Air Force Academy, as are both his sons and his daughter-in-law.

But in 2005 his love affair with the military came to an abrupt halt, when his son Casey experienced virulant anti-Semitism at the academy.

As documented in the film "Constantine's Sword," Casey Weinstein said, "I never heard it in high school - if people knew I was Jewish, they never made any point, never got mentioned. But once I got to the academy, I became so aware of it, that I was different."

The Pentagon investigated, and said mistakes were made, admitting to "incidents where some superior officers and some cadets were engaged in inappropriate religious behavior."

Suspecting this was but the tip of the iceberg, Weinstein started the Military Religious Freedom Foundation and got a torrent of calls.

"We just recently went over 7,500 members: active duty members of the U.S. Marine Corps, Navy, Army and Air Force, Reserve and Guard, and vets, both officers and enlisted, who have come to us, you know, begging for help."

As evidence that Christianity is being forced on soldiers, there is a promotional video from a group called the Christian Embassy shot inside the Pentagon and featuring several generals.

Then there's the Web site of the Officers Christian Fellowship, which has representatives on nearly all U.S. military bases worldwide.

"They're unabashed about it," Mikey Weinstein said. "Goal number one, they wanna see 'a spiritually transformed United States military.' Goal number two, with ambassadors for Christ - now listen to the prepositional phrase 'in uniform.' Now parenthetically that hasn't worked out too well for planet Earth the last 2,000 years."

The Air Force Academy discrimination case is the subject of a new documentary, "Constantine's Sword," in which the Academy is characterized as putting their "stamp" on conservative Christian ideology.

Oren Jacoby, the film's writer and director, said, "As a filmmaker, I like to find stories about people who have real courage."

"Going back to the Roman Empire, when Constantine first made Christianity the state religion, it's a very dangerous thing when military might and religious fervor come together, because it inflames people. It inflames hatred of the 'other.'"

Critics say being perceived as a Christian army on a crusade is especially dangerous today, lest our country be seen as engaging in a holy war.

Deputy Defense Under-secretary Bill Carr, point man on personnel issues, thinks religious freedom is always a balancing act.

"I don't see it as a major problem," Carr said. "But it is something that requires attention so that it doesn't become a problem.

"I think the important part for the military is to be inclusive," he said. "When it does gather together, if a prayer is offered, that that prayer would not be faith-specific, naming, for example, Jesus Christ or Allah, but instead would lift the spirits of those that are present."

Carr points out that the generals in that Christian Embassy video were told they were out of line. Any evangelizing, he says, is strictly against the rules.

Carr said it is his firm belief that Christianity is not pushed in the military, "except in rare cases.

"Some people don't recognize that they've made an error. That's why we coach each other in the rules of the game, so that we respect each other and respect our traditions."

But that wasn't his experience, said Jeremy Hall, whose discrimination case is winding its way through the Kansas courts.

And where does his experience leave him as far as the military goes?

"I have about a year left in the military," Hall said. "I did plan to make a career out of it. I still love my country. I still love the service. But I don't believe you can continue to work for somebody who's infringed upon your rights.

"I hope the military changes. And if it does, I might just come back in."

And whether he wins or loses in court, just for the record, that old saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" - true?

"It's not," Hall said. "Ii know plenty of atheists in foxholes."

And, he says, they can be excellent soldiers.

[inventagod2]

With a ''born-again'' commander-in-chief, there is no hope for the US military to be inclusive.
A cult is a cult - no matter how you candy-coat the thing.
The Bu$h cabal based their entire oil-grab scheme on the US hating Muslums - that''s what 9/11 was all about...

[hungry1968]

"It''s a two-way street," he said. "And so, you know, the atheist soldier should be happy that some of his band of brothers were able to have that religious experience, whereas, you know, there was no pressure put on him to participate in it."




This is no surprise. I suffered it in Germany in 1987. I was an atheist, and it was well known, and I had to pull guard duty 5 Sunday mornings in a row, "since I wasn''t going to church anyway", like that somehow made it fair.

If your going to church is like a chore or a job, then don''t go. But I shouldn''t have to pick up YOUR SLACK, because YOU want to go to church!!

[edward1975-2009]

A lot of whining over nothing. Having served, religion was not forced upon anyone, and those who wished to participate in their beliefs were afforded that opportunity to do so. Another attempt from the vocal minority to take this country away from one of the core values we were founded upon, religious freedom. You have your right to believe what you wish, do others not have that same right.

[headpop2]

How can people hate people they''ve never met before?

At least the Nazis knew the Jews. Or lived among them. We don''t live among Arabs. Last Arab I saw was on some terrorism teevee show.

I was in the military, and I can tell ya first hand that it can be extremely lonely. And thats what religion did for me. It made me feel at home. Its like the McDonalds food chain: "Recognizable food where ever ya go." Same thing with religion in the military.

[rudy654-2009]

Excerpt:
"Going back to the Roman Empire, when Constantine first made Christianity the state religion, it''s a very dangerous thing when military might and religious fervor come together, because it inflames people. It inflames hatred of the ''other.''"

Critics say being perceived as a Christian army on a crusade is especially dangerous today, lest our country be seen as engaging in a holy war.
****************

Well, just how do they expect people to go and sacrifice their lives without belief in something beyond death? Even Stalin recognized that without religion he didn''t have much hope fighting Hitler. So he brought back all the priests he previously ran off.

No, if you expect people to throw away their life after some war, you had better offer something more than 10,000 dollars to their families after they die.

[headpop2]

In no other sector of endeavor is there more a need for God than in war. Be it ignorant? Dangerous? Unethical? Whatever. Back home they test ya and give ya grades. Over there? Yer tested everyday, by the soul.

[ndavidg]

How does anyone see God in the midst of the horrors of war?

[tainoaz]

In my opinion this trend in our Armed Forces is contrary to what our Constitution stands for. It is nothing really new. I served in the Reagan era. Some are aware of the WW2 story of 4 Chaplains of 4 different faiths that gave their seats on a rescue boat that others may live to see their loved ones again. That said, to ''force'' religion on our soldiers reminds me of screaming ''Allah U Akbar'' as you blow yourself and another human being for the glory of GOD?

[wdrussell1]

Yes it is proper to call them the American taliban.

[headpop2]

The military uniform is like the perfect illustration of the schizophrenia of professionalism. Ya dress? Ya holster yer rifle? Ya slap all that high tech gadgetry no body else knows about? And that yer so keen on. And you become.. "the professional".

But even the military ain''t dumb enough to not let people be people.

[jjarden]

I was an Army officer (ARMOR) for many years, and here''s what it boils down to. MANY soldiers are from the South...the "Bible Belt"...and they are overly religious. They bring their religion with them to their "Job," which is NOT what they are supposed to do. Remember, it''s JUST a Job, and they would NOT be allowed to do that in any other job such as working for a private sector company. PLUS, this is a GOVERNMENT job, which means that a SEPERATION of Church & State is called for. I regret that at all those "Dining Ins" and "Military Balls" I attended where a Christian Chaplain said "GRACE" before dinner that I didn''t speak up and say that it was unacceptable behavior, which it was and is.

[headpop2]

My ******.. my hedonistic tendencies.. my teers of passion.. go to my God.. and not some.. blond chick.

[tainoaz]

More madness has occured in the name of ''God''... It is sad. To become a religious Zealot while you are figthing one makes no sense to me. Maybe if we dropped a small nuke over The Vatican, Mecca and Jerusalem mankind could avoid the ''self fulfilling prophesy'' of the Apocalypse/Armaggedon. Those who spake for Palestine are hell bent on destroying Israel. Jewish Zealots want to rebuild ''The Temple'' where a Mosque sits now. Religion has lost all it''s meaning. Sad.

[headpop2]

Wrong. More madness occered in the name of a blond chick.

[erichsh]

Another red-meat article dredged up out of the woodwork by CBS to throw to their secularist, far-left, loyal blogging crowd. Who, in turn, will extrapolate this isolated, single incident into a blanket, vicious indictment against the larger target du-jour in their insult-laden screeds.

The other day it was about an obscure local-level Republican speaking at a Nazi organization. Today it''s about an obscure atheist claiming he''s discrimated against. Tomorrow it will be a heart-rending story about an Islamic terrorist claiming he was tortured.

The resultant posts are as predictable as the snacks regularly served up by CBS.

[bastages3]

It should be noted that even though Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire, it also caused the collapse of the empire. America ended up being founded as a way to get away from the Church, ultimately Christianity. America doesn''t fight religious wars, and there is no excuse what-so-ever for these kinds of things to happen, especially in any branch of the military.

[fibonacci_]

So much for "there are no atheists in te foxholes."

[gggjohnson]

Would you rather the miltary was the like the Israel miltary, or maybe the Iranian military or the Chinese military. What is their policy on religion.

Maybe the Jewish lawyer who was so offended should get his facts stright on what Christian values contributed to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI and WWII, where 90% or more of those who died had the beliefs and expressed those beliefs that he hates. they died so he could have a different religion, although most Jews in Israel for instance are not Jewish at all.

As for the solider, Hall, he doesn''t have to fit the norm the same as *** and others. But because they set themselves apart due to their own beliefs they can''t expect to be accepted. Their beliefs are an insult to the majority. They insist on acceptance but do not accept the majority.

As for the commentator, she is not a journalist, that would require objectivity. The whole segment is an insult to the majority of us who understand our history and why the belief in Christ is essential for our values and our form of government.

All I can do is not watch you station anymore, and I will take that action as my statement on your corporate beliefs and the type of journalism you profess.

[headpop2]

America wasn''t founded to get away from the Church. What history book are ya reading? America was founded to get away from the King.

[headpop2]

From taxes.

[uh2c]

Balance of story was as accurate as beginning of story. There is no seperation of Church and State in the Constitution. Was a later Supreme Court decision based on a private letter between Jefferson & Pastor to assure the Pastor that the Govt. was not going to adopt a national relgion such as found in England. I use to enjoy Sunday Morning as an commentary on fun things happening in America. But with this report you have fallen in to the velvet crevas of American Journalism that chooses to make the news rather than report the news. How sad.

[bastages3]

Thinking that discrimination never occurs is blasphemy, truely. We were not founded on Christian principles, ever. Resemblences are irrelivent, and if you want to argue resemblences, let''s go on past the last 2000 years, as a matter of fact, let''s go right up about the time the dinosaurs were obliterated. The beleif in Christ has caused more upset and destruction on a personal level than any other religion.

[tainoaz]

We consider the Islamofacist cowards because they fight using guerilla tactics. They make videos before marching of into battle and use the only equalizer they can afford-suicide ''guided'' bombs, and I.E.D.''s against multi million fighting vehicles and Predator remote controlled aircraft. War is for cowards. Peace takes real ''Men'' to wage because it is harder, no immediate gratification and it requires real application of Godly values, respect for one another.

[edward1975-2009]

Religion hasn''t lost it meaning, man has lost his way. Do not equate what people do to religion. Many twist what is written into their own agenda filled beliefs. God didn''t create war, man did. We wage war for man made reasons and then blame God for our travesties. And for all you atheisists that claim not to believe, you sure do waste a lot of time talking about something you have no interest in.

[xprintman]

The military honors the service and sacrifice of its veterans, as it should, but then it merges the message of "for God" into the one "for country" to redefine the value of service that I, an atheist, gladly gave. I served my country and NOT your narrow highly personal belief system, thank you.

[fibonacci_]

Edward1975, I am an atheist but I DO INDEED have interest in figuring out why you guys believe stuff that is so clearly false and for which there is no evidence. I am very curious why almost every religious person is "100% certain" that their religion is the correct hypothesis. What kind of compromised critical thinking skills come into play here, and how does that happen?

[tainoaz]

gggjohnson-You know nothing of combat psycology. Once you are on the battle field you fight for you comrade to thr right and left. For the *** on the left, and the neo Nazi on the right. Band of Brothers. You fight for revenge, and to make it home to your girl, Mom and her apple pie. I love Jesus as ''The Prince of Peace'' but right now I loathe most that call themselves ''Christians''. they have become, IMO, nothing but flag waving, ''groupthink'' zealots of the worst kind. Self Righteous, Holier than Thou... Sad:(

[bbirdsr71]

The separation of ''church and state'' is NOT found in the U.S. Constitution! Its a separate piece of document the Thomas Jefferson wrote to protect the church from the state.

[bbirdsr71]

The separation of ''church and state'' is NOT found in the U.S. Constitution! Its a separate piece of document the Thomas Jefferson wrote to protect the church from the state.

[galloglaigh]

"...it''s a very dangerous thing when military might and religious fervor come together, because it inflames people. It inflames hatred of the ''other.''"
----------------------------------

How true, how true!! We see that in "other" religions but we don''t see it in christianity, but it''s there for all to see if they would just "open" their mind.

Our founding fathers knew the dangers of having a "national" religion.

[bjrober]

I am saddened that there those who still do not believe in God. I had a very personal experience over 38 years ago. My husband was in the military and I had tuberculosis, three children and PG with 4th. I was sent to a TB hospital and was very critical, I went to church but I was not strong in my faith.
I am white and in the adjoining room, this black lady came to my bed and said she saw me at the foot of her bed, she laid hands on me and I knew I was going to make it. Faith came alive in me and I left the hospital and my husband really saw how God''s hand moved in my body and my life. She was my Angel and I am so thankful she came and prayed for me.

[tainoaz]

What makes a Christian here absolutely certain that his Messiah is ''the One''? The same INDOCTRINATION that makes a Muslim absolutely certain, that his Messiah is ''the One''. That is all you know! You believe what you know, what you are taught! We should all just observe the ''Golden Rule'' as stated in KinderGarten. The world, and it''s resources are shrinking. We better stop this nonsense, if not for our immediate gratification, for our children and theirs.
"In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." - From The Great Law of The Iroquois Confederacy

[jjarden]

bjrober,

I''m glad you (your body/a living organizm) survived, BUT it had NOTHING to do with "Angels" or an "Invisible Sky Wizard"...they DO NOT exist...and have NEVER existed...and to think otherwise is Delusion.

If I told you your husband was having an affair, what would you say to me? You would want PROOF. If I told you your son stole money from me, what would you say to me? You would want PROOF. So why is it that you DO NOT require PROOF about Angels and the Invisible Sky Wizard?

Put some "THOUGHT" into the issue and you will finally see.

[indivthinker]

"It should be noted that even though Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire, it also caused the collapse of the empire."
Posted by Bastages3

Actually, the reasons for the failure of the Roman Empire was not religion. Corruption was huge. The military was incapable of sustaining itself. The Empire split into two after Constantine moved the capital. Christianity had nothing to do with it. Actually, Christianity was responsible for saving Western civilization and making it the dominant culture in the world. Were it not for the unity brought about by the Roman Catholic Church in central and western Europe, the Muslim forces of the Middle East and Africa would have completely engulfed Europe. Spain never would have been freed. France and Italy and Germany would have been "Muslimized". And as a result, no colonization of the New World.
The New World was colonized primarily for religious freedom, but also for religious conversion. Much of Spanish conquest was for the purpose of spreading the gospel to the Indians and westernizing the whole area. That force called Christianity, which you criticize, is the most influential movement in the history of the world. Without it, we would be Muslim, and we would still be living in the Old World.

[fibonacci_]

I am saddened that there those who still do not believe in God.

Posted by bjrober

Why are you sad about it?

[veteran72]

Without "Churches", "Synagoges", "Temples", etc., and indoctrination and brainwashing of children from an early age, religion would simply vanish, as the ridiculous hoax that it is.
Religious leaders rely on these tools to keep the mental delusion going, generation after generation.
Stop the insanity.
Use your brains and realize there''s no magical, invisible, friends, looking down and judging our every action from somewhere far above.
Snap out it!!!

[down-ndirty]

America wasn''''t founded to get away from the Church. What history book are ya reading? America was founded to get away from the King.
Posted by headpop2 at 12:12 PM : Apr 27, 2008
__________________

Really?? What history books have "ya" been reading, headpop2? The people who left England left because of the king "and" his "state" religion.

The GOD delusion: When one person is deluded it''s called insanity; when several people are deluded it''s called religion.

Politics has killed hundreds of thousands; religion has killed hundreds of millions.

Christianity today is nothing like the "new" Judaism that Christ was teaching.

[fibonacci_]

Exactly. Why do you guys believe stuff that is so clearly wrong? Not everybody could be right, correct? So what makes you think you are right? Whatever you believe you are in the minority...what exactly is it that leads you to believe that you are right?

[fibonacci_]

I find this extremely confusing. Why do people believe this stuff?

[jimbo554]

The more Christians bully and swagger about, the more irrelevant they make their religion. Little do they know they are killing the thing they treasure.

[fibonacci_]

The threats "you are headed to a place called hell" dont really help either.

[jimfinster]

I think this is a very dangerous thing for our democracy.

[patriotic9]

I am sick and tired of this animosity and hatred against our constitution which separates church from state and hence make us different from taliban, alqaeda and Osama been forgotten.
We need to get rid of discrimination based on religion, race, skin color, sexual orientation. How can we fight and win this war being so much divided?

[j_flood]

What harm does an atheist do to others? Atheists don''t have missionary schools or enrol others to go to the lengths of the earth to make others atheists. While I was in the USAF I remember stories of the "Mormon Mafia" and saw pretty good examples of it in then West Germany. I served on a crew of Southern Baptists as the only Catholic. More than once I was the butt of insensitive jokes.

Tolerance? What ever became of it - or did we never have it to begin with?

[down-ndirty]

I am saddened that there those who still do not believe in God. ...
Posted by bjrober at 12:33 PM : Apr 27, 2008
___________________

How conceited is THAT statement!! Don''t be sad for people who do not believe in the supernatural. You don''t believe in multiple gods (as the pagans did) and we just happen to believe in one less god than you do.

As for your healing; cancer does go into remission and there''s obviously a medical answer for your remission. Just because we haven''t discovered the answer yet doesn''t make it a "miracle."

[fibonacci_]

I am saddened that people dont believe in the tooth fairy. :(

[fake-id-2009]

This story is proof that the christian taliban is alive and well.

Scary... Christ must be rolling in his grave LHAO!!

[excoachken]

It seems that bin Laden has succeeded by destroying our "freedom of religion" and turning us into the American Taliban State. Live and let live, believe and let believe, and most of all mind your own *** business and let me be what I choose to be!

[fibonacci_]

One time I lost a tooth and I put it under my pillow and I found 1 dollar the next morning.

[tainoaz]

indivthinker- OMG, what makes you think that we would not have embraced the Muslim Delusion just as blindly as the Christian one? Lol You REALLY think the Man would not have ravaged the ''New World'' under the Muslim faith too? genocide and culturecide has been happening for millenia. My Spanish ancestors, along with Portuguese, Dutch, English, French came here to enslave and pillage resources. Not for the benefit of the indigenous people! Lol Lol Come on! Religion was but a tool that the ''tools'' of the ''Rich and Powerful'' in the ''Old World'' wielded with impunity. Dude get a grip! Please!