ST. LOUIS, April 26, 2008

Agricultural Giant Battles Small Farmers

Monsanto Goes To Great Lengths To Protect Its Patents On Genetically Modified Crops

  • Play CBS Video Video The War Over Modified Crops

    American farmers have been growing genetically modified crops for years. For some that means bigger crops and higher profits--for others, a host of problems. Armen Keteyian reports.

  • Monsanto's Roundup Ready soybean seeds. Photo

    Monsanto's Roundup Ready soybean seeds.  (Monsanto)

(CBS)  American farmers have been growing genetically modified crops for years, from seeds engineered to resist pests and chemicals. These patented seeds produced bigger crops and profits for farmers who bought them from companies like DuPont and Monsanto, but for other farmers the seeds have created a host of problems. CBS News Chief Investigative Correspondent Armen Keteyian has been investigating.


David Runyon and his wife Dawn put a lifetime of work into their 900-acre Indiana farm, and almost lost it all over a seed they say they never planted.

"I don't believe any company has the right to come into someone's home and threaten their livelihood," Dawn said, "to bring them into such physical turmoil as this company did to us."

The Runyons charge bio-tech giant Monsanto sent investigators to their home unannounced, demanded years of farming records, and later threatened to sue them for patent infringement. The Runyons say an anonymous tip led Monsanto to suspect that genetically modified soybeans were growing on their property.

"I wasn't using their products, but yet they were pounding on my door demanding information, demanding records," Dave said. "It was just plain harassment is what they were doing."

Today, Monsanto's patented "Round-up Ready" soy commands the lion's share of the genetically-modified soybean seed market, its genetic code manipulated to withstand the company's popular weed killer.

But the promise of fewer weeds and greater production comes with a hefty fee. Farmers must sign an iron-clad agreement not to re-plant the harvested seed, or face serious legal consequences - up to $3 million in damages.

"It's about protecting the patent, defending the patents, so farmers have the protection and can use these technologies over time," said Monsanto spokeswoman Tami Craig Schilling.

The Runyons say they signed no agreements, and if they were contaminated with the genetically modified seed, it blew over from a neighboring farm.

"Pollination occurs, wind drift occurs. There's just no way to keep their products from landing in our fields," David said.

"What Monsanto is doing across the country is often, and according to farmers, trespassing even, on their land, examining their crops and trying to find some of their patented crops," said Andrew Kimbrell, with the Center For Food Safety. "And if they do, they sue those farmers for their entire crop."

In fact, in Feb. 2005 the Runyons received a letter from Monsanto, citing "an agreement" with the Indiana Department of Agriculture giving it the right to come on their land and test for seed contamination.

Only one problem: The Indiana Department of Agriculture didn't exist until two months after that letter was sent. What does that say to you?

"I'm not aware of the specific situation in Indiana," Schilling said.

"I'm just talking in general terms," said Keteyian. "Would Monsanto lie, deceive, intimidate, harass American farmers to protect its patents?"

"With farmers as customers I would say that is not our policy by any means."

74-year-old Mo Parr is a seed cleaner; he is hired by farmers to separate debris from the seed to be replanted. Monsanto sued him claiming he was "aiding and abetting" farmers, helping them to violate the patent.

"There's no way that I could be held responsible," Parr said. "There's no way that I could look at a soy bean and tell you if it's Round-up Ready."

Quote

Pollination occurs, wind drift occurs. There's just no way to keep their products from landing in our fields.

David Runyon
The company subpoenaed Parr's bank records, without his knowledge, and found his customers. After receiving calls from Monsanto, some of them stopped talking to him.

"It really broke my heart," Parr said. "You know, I could hardly hold a cup of coffee that morning,"

Monsanto won its case against Parr, but the company, which won't comment on specific cases, has stopped its legal action against the Runyons.

And now four states, including Indiana, prohibit seed suppliers from entering a farmer's property without a state agent, tactics which have threatened a way of life.


For more information, visit the Web sites of Monsanto and The Center for Food Safety.

© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Video and Galleries from CBS Evening News

Add a Comment See all 60 Comments
by arthurtesla April 26, 2008 9:30 PM PDT
Genetically engineered foods are Poison!!!
Reply to this comment
by arthurtesla April 26, 2008 9:34 PM PDT
Genetically engineered foods are Poison!!!
Reply to this comment
by hypnotoad72 April 27, 2008 7:52 AM PDT
Maybe Monsato could develop weather control and then stop worrying about mother nature?

They''ve done great things, no argument there, but wind and other factors are inevitable. I doubt they will go broke, one way or the other.
Reply to this comment
by idnnsg April 27, 2008 7:55 AM PDT
Evil
noun: see Monsanto Corporation

"Round-up Ready" soy -- genetically modified to survive application of their other poison, Round-up! It doesn''t save the farmers ANY money at all; it just guarantees that Monsanto gets ALL of their money!
Reply to this comment
by mbamama April 27, 2008 8:16 AM PDT
As we watch one corporation patent life forms in order to claim legal rights over the agricultural commodity markets, we should not only consider the legal implications of the patenting of life but also the financial implications that these patents appear to be having on food prices.

Using patents, this corporation now controls 97% of the genetically engineered corn market and 91% of the genetically engineered soy market, resulting in their remarkable financial success (NYSE: MON). However, this market dominance has not been addressed by the Environmental Protection Agency, which regulates the sale and distribution of genetically engineered crops and whose second in command, Linda Fisher, is a former Monsanto attorney.

Having allowed such market dominance, perhaps it is time that we call on Ms. Fisher to enact anti-trust legislation in order to engage market competition in this space in the hopes of introducing improved, more efficient, cost effective products.

Only then, with increased competition driving lower price points in the commodity markets, might genetically engineered crops be able to solve the world''s food crisis, as promised.
Reply to this comment
by panhandlpete April 27, 2008 8:34 AM PDT
Now, boy oh boy, would I like to sit on the jury for the Runyons against Monsanto!!! A prime example of a corporate giant, aided by our government, to squash the family farms and give us all bountiful harvest of genetically manipulated foods.....without our knowledge.

I wonder if this current media-hyped world FOOD shortage has more undertones than truth. If the public thinks that genetics can increase the food supply to a starving world, would we not be more likely to look favorably upon it, than IF the corporate farms(i.e.Monsanto) said...."wow, we can just use these dumb farmers to plant our genetically engineered seeds to increase our profits." Where is the long term study which should be following those seeds to the buyer of the end products produced for human/animal consumption? We are what we eat...
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by popstom1 April 27, 2008 8:57 AM PDT
The same people that bought you agent Orange
Reply to this comment
by trillion1 April 27, 2008 9:16 AM PDT
Money before people again.
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by l8c6 April 27, 2008 9:20 AM PDT
Farmers all across america though helped immensely by Roosevelt''s policies during and after the great depression in mass turned to the right wing republican. Now the wrath of right wing tyranny that they have voted for repeatedly after decades is coming to their door demanding the land they have farmed for decades. It has been happening in other countries for decades by these big corporate beasts and it will steadily happen within the borders of the United States. Big privatized corporations through often publicly funded research, take the ideas, take the profits and in the end claim and take all till the people of this country have no stake in anything.
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by downsteamjim April 27, 2008 9:38 AM PDT
Visiting fields without the owners permission could get one shot. This is the same as the take over of the cult compound in Texas based on a phone call that was obviously from someone not in or associated with it.
Reply to this comment
by piercetheval April 27, 2008 10:40 AM PDT
HEY MONSANTO! I ate some of your seed nd I''m going to **** it out by the barn. You want it? Come and get it!
Reply to this comment
by veteran72 April 27, 2008 10:43 AM PDT
Welcome to Corporate Fascist Neocon Nazi Amerikkka. If you think this is good, just wait a little while. The NAU, Amero, Real I.D., and Human Tracking Chips are only part of what these Scumbags have in store for you.
Constitution??? Rule of Law??? Founding Fathers???
Obsolete.
Corporate Fascist Dictatorship is the Future.
Fight them now, or be exterminated by them tomorrow.
Fight the Fascist Neocon Nazis.
Reply to this comment
by m51846 April 27, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
I am a corn/soybean farmer. I have raised corn & beans every year since 1967. For years, we always were able to plant our seed back for next year''s crop. Two or three years ago, I gave up, climbed in bed with Monsanto since I really had no choice-so, if you''re reading this Monsanto, forget it, I paid your ransom. Unfortunately, like most industries now, "Welcom to Corporate America" with its inherent advantages (?) and disadvantages. It is true, you can save money using round-up ready crops. However, if you are a small family farmer it may be different. The small farmer often has to depend on local retailers to apply their chemical products to their field. This, of course, is costly, but the thousands of dollars it takes to get equiped yourself may prohibit that, thus round-up can be at best, break even. Just forces the farmer to get big or get out plus climb in bed with Monsatan, oh excuse me, Monsanto. Other companies, Dupont for instance, may share the same opinion as Monsanto, but are less arrogant and vocal. Monsanto has sent out on a yearly basis, letters encouraging farmers to turn their fellow farmers in who plant their Round-up beans back the following year. I wonder why I use Dupont products as much as possible. Monsanto is exploding buying many many independent seed companies up all over America. Corporate greed at its worst! One last comment though, genetically modified crops are safe, regardless of what you read-just make them someone other than Monsanto.
Reply to this comment
by immparts April 27, 2008 10:52 AM PDT
Perhaps Mr. and Mrs. Runyon should counter-sue Monsanto for polluting thir crop with genetically modified pollen which they neither wanted nor purchased. Further, Monsanto deliberately marketed a crop seed that Monsanto knew or should have known would cross pollinate with nearby crops. Thus, any farmer who chooses to plant a non-genetically modified crop is at risk for modification of his/her crop by cross pollination thereby rendering the crop harvest quality open to question as to its real value as some consumers prefer not to purchase genetically modified harvest.
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by andylance1 April 27, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
John McCain said back during the Iowa primary that he was against agricultural subsidies. Both Obama and Hillary say they are for farm subsidies, including subsidizing corn for ethanol production.

When you have corrupt politicians with their hands out for paybacks from agri-biz companies like ADM - how can we ever end these terrible farm subsidies?

The American taxpayers pay countless billions to agri-biz. This is the main reason we have rising food prices in the world.

The politicians who vote for farm subsidies have blood on their hands of starving people all over the world.

For the sake of so-called energy independence and "green politics" and Wall Street tycoons boosting grain futures - everyone in the world has to pay more for groceries.

Vote for John McCain to keep the world from starving. Vote against greedy politicians who are corrupted by agri-biz bribes and "donations."
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by cbsblogger April 27, 2008 10:57 AM PDT
Check out Monsanto''s record on Bovine Growth Hormone, which in the opinion of many is a serious health threat to our milk and cheese supply. Monsanto used heavy handed tactics to shut down the investigation in the USA.

http://www.keepmainefree.org/legalopinion.html

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by scttbrunson April 27, 2008 11:16 AM PDT
The victims of this undue harrassment by a deep pocket out of control company need to find an ambulance chaser willing to file a class action lawsuit against Monsanto for big bucks, they do have very deep pockets, over trespassing, harassment, undue stress, defamation, etc..to teach big business this tyoe of amoral behavior will not be tolerated.
Reply to this comment
by rudy654-2009 April 27, 2008 11:59 AM PDT
"It''s about protecting the patent, defending the patents, so farmers have the protection and can use these technologies over time," said Monsanto spokeswoman Tami Craig Schilling.
**********

This Monsanto is pure evil itself. They think they are going to own the whole world with their cross pollinization and intimidating farmers left and right. The problem also is intensified because Monsanto representatives are now in chief government positions (food and drug) and easily manipulate the system against the small farmer.

But what is worse is there massive takeover of crops has given us the worse kind of seed and produce ever. Most of the krap has no taste, no vitamin value, etc. And for all we know they are poisoning us, but we have no research as to its detrimental effects. To hell with Monsanto.
Reply to this comment
by javalation April 27, 2008 12:55 PM PDT
Isn''t this the way free markets are supposed to work, creating monopolies that can corner markets for their own profit?
Reply to this comment
by bleem3 April 27, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
Do not buy Monsanto products.

Boycott them. They are not for your health or well-being, they are chasing the dollar.

What kind of name is the name of their lawyer, "Schilling"? Take a guess! It''s not a PURE GERMAN name, no. It''s another type of name. The company is absolutely full of those people. May they all choke on their soybeans.
Reply to this comment
by andylance1 April 27, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
Where American science screws up is when they try to find dual use for agriculture commodities. Two prime examples of this dual use is ethanol as a gasoline substitute and High Fructose corn syrup as a sugar substitute. With ethanol they cause starvation and with high fructose corn syrup they cause obesity and diabetes.

When people from Iceland visit the United States, the first thing they notice is the number of fat people they see. The average weight of American women (164 pounds) and men (191 pounds) has increased 25 pounds since 1960. We are the fattest people on earth, thanks to Coke, Pepsi and ADM - Archer Daniels Midland - the largest producer of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Due to federal agribusiness subsidies, every dollar of profits earned by ADM''s corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10. Of the $113.6 billion in taxpayer commodity subsidy payments distributed by the USDA between 1995 and 2004, corn drew $41.8 billion -- more than cotton, soy, and rice combined. What''s wrong with this picture? Maybe it''s the Iowa presidential primary. Where do the presidential candidates and your congressional representatives stand on corn subsidies? Who sucks up to ADM?

The occurrence of new cases of type 2 diabetes has doubled over the past three decades.

Stop the mad-scientists that are messing with corn. Corn is a food - Leave it that way - it is not a fuel and it is not sugar.
Reply to this comment
by itgranny April 27, 2008 1:46 PM PDT
they had their fingers in the swine industry too.

What people don''t understand is that most genetic engineering (in animals anyhow) is NOT taking a piece of DNA and doing funky things to it.

it''s finding and isolating a unique trait (such as immunity to a disease), figuring out how to test dna for the presence of the trait''s genes and then breeding/reproducing individuals known to have that trait since they can now find them through testing. In other words, these are still all naturally occuring genes.

The problem comes with the stupid people at the patent office being BS''ed by these companies and giving patents for naturally occuring traits. And then, when these products are raised in such numbers as to contaminate everything else, even their non customers, they can sue.
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by barbjc1 April 27, 2008 1:49 PM PDT
I would like to know how the government is pulling this one off. The law reads, genetically modified food cannot be put into the food chain. Soy burgers are fed every day to some child in the school lunches.How can they tell which soybeans are not genetically modified. THEY CAN''T. It doesn''t take a rocket scientist to figure out another cause of autism and obesity in our children.My daughter and I now read labels on food, if it says high fructose corn syrup, we do not purchase it.
America, I am not a revolutionary by any means, however, I think we need to vote every member of Congress out of office and start over. Also, if Obama and Clinton are still for subsidies for "VERY LARGE" agriculture corporation DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM. Farm subsidies means to someone like me, a small farmer, maybe $200 a year in payment for the USDA.
Reply to this comment
by hungry1968 April 27, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
Isn''''t this the way free markets are supposed to work, creating monopolies that can corner markets for their own profit?

Posted by Javalation at 12:55 PM : Apr 27, 2008





Rah! Rah! Capitalism!! Who cares if "people" suffer - it''s all about big business being happy.
Reply to this comment
by itgranny April 27, 2008 2:09 PM PDT
BarbJC1: I agree 100%!

For those interested in how much the subsidy check was for your local area farmers(? i use the word lightly) check out this site.
http://farm.ewg.org/sites/farmbill2007/index.php

The ones getting the big money are using it to put people like you out of business. How many other small businesses (owner operated grocery stores or hardware stores, cafes, pubs and coffee shops, plumbers and furnace repairmen, auto repair shops) do you see getting checks from the gov. year after year for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Farm subidies are supposed to make for cheap food. How cheap has that doz. eggs, gallon of milk or the beef steak been lately?
Reply to this comment
by popstom1 April 27, 2008 2:27 PM PDT
this should been stop 40 years ago
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by vozukl April 27, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
What ever happened to the anti-monopoly law? Do companies like Monsanto have so much influence over politicians that they are exempt? Myself, I never eat soy because I don''t know (and neither does anyone else besides the companies who produce genetically modified foods) what side effects will begin to show up in our bodies from genetically modified foods. How much lobbying money do companies like Monsanto provide to politicians?
Reply to this comment
by cosmicfluke April 27, 2008 2:46 PM PDT
Monsanto is evil?
Why don''t I ever hear that on NPR??
Reply to this comment
by vozukl April 27, 2008 2:56 PM PDT
Companies like Monsanto are not limited to the USA. They have their fingers in many countries and are mult-national. Having had occasion to speak with Mexican farmers, one of the biggest complaints I heard was the high cost of seed to plant their crops. For poor farmers, this keeps them in a starvation mode. Companies like Monsanto are part of the undocumented immigrant worker problem. They force people into economic bondage then laugh when they become economic refugees and cross the Rio Grande. The problem lies with both hybrid seed and genetically modified seed. Farmers also complained that many of the vegetables had lost their flavor and tasted bland and steril.
Reply to this comment
by jt_lancer April 27, 2008 3:05 PM PDT
Isn''t this the way free markets are supposed to work, creating monopolies that can corner markets for their own profit?

Posted by Javalation at 12:55 PM : Apr 27, 2008

Actually, monopolies are far more common in the government sector than the private sector. Thanks to technological advancements and innovation, few private companies can maintain a monopoly position for a long time.

In the public sector, however, the govt merely criminalizes competition - or makes it very hard to compete. Ever wonder why there is no private first class mail service? Private legal tender? Because the State criminalizes the competition.

Ever wonder why 90% of US children attend public schools? Not because it is the best education available, but because the ''customers'' and non-customers alike (seniors, couples w/o kids) are FORCED to pay for the service via property taxes.
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by miami_21 April 27, 2008 3:59 PM PDT
a view from behind bars; big farm vs. little farm vs. the big dogs....you all have turned into a bunch of crooks. all this economy break down for ethanol while still receiving farmer welfare in the form of goverment handouts is affecting alot more people then the farmer and your lame children that drive nice cars and your yearly four month vacations to somewhere warm.

have a nice day crooks.
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by bretster7 April 27, 2008 4:16 PM PDT
By reading the moronic comments on this blog , it seems to me that all you libs need to do is round up all the conservatives and the Jews and exterminate them. After all they are the cause of all the bad in world, right? Libs do no wrong. Conservative do no right. What idiologically intellectual lazyness. Then you could implement your communist/socialist utopia ala Stalin, Lenin, and Mao.
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by tucano2 April 27, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
Frankenfood will fail, and there will NOT be any "natural" foods available. The usual chaos and starvation will result.
Reply to this comment
by nick32708 April 27, 2008 4:32 PM PDT
These monsters (Dupont and Monsanto) got out of control. This is a great danger to the biodiversity of plants. One step towards dooms day. I am happy, i won''t be alive to see that.
Reply to this comment
by peaches1957-2009 April 27, 2008 5:08 PM PDT
This is nothing new. Monsanto is determined that everyone - from 5,000-acre American farmers to the dirt farmer in Ethiopia - be dependent on their genetically engineered seed. This seed is also famous for killing bees, as they try to pollinate the flowers from genetically manipulated seed. No one knows what end result will occur from the genetically manipulated seed; what harm it could cause by ingestion. Monsanto gives it away free the first time, just like a dealer with a new crack addict - and then charges outrageous prices afterwards. Real growers know - Monsanto is about profit, not about quality. Hilary Clinton used to represent them, after all... That should be all you need to know about smarmy and underhanded, deceitful behavior.
Reply to this comment
by cbutler69 April 27, 2008 5:11 PM PDT
Sounds like these farmers that are being harrassed by Monsanto should get together and file a class action lawsuit against them. Nobody has the right to check my bank account without my persmission, I dont care who they are. They arent government so they dont have the right to demand anything especially since you arent using there product. What kind of idiots are they? Would make me think twice about useing there stuff for anything.
Reply to this comment
by actornaught April 27, 2008 7:35 PM PDT
Posted by bretster7 at 04:16 PM : Apr 27, 2008

Somehow, in some sick way, this one post shows you don''t have the slightest idea that you''re the worst kind of hypocrite.
Reply to this comment
by liberalme April 27, 2008 8:45 PM PDT
The almighty dollar (now worth about 49 cents) has these big corporation stomping on the very lives that got them started. They want the whole pie the greedy pompus empty suit Ba$tards!

I shop very carefully now, Nike is off the list completely-I will not buy produce grown outside the country--I can grow my own and I will not pay top dollar for anything made out of this country, I will not support sweat shop labor.

We are (in number) larger than they are, if our grandparents could work, grow a garden, and can their own food, we need to get off our lazy A$$es and do the same thing--or shut up and keep these fat cats in a comfort zone none of us can ever imagine!
Reply to this comment
by apprxam April 27, 2008 9:01 PM PDT
This is the door left opened by the US Supreme Court, Reaganomics and the privatization of the public domain.

Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, CLINTON, Bush and CLINTON II all cater to the rich and continues to give away even nature: Spectrum (airwaves), Gemones, seeds.

Privatized things such as: water, electricity, mountain-tops in W.VA.

Public services: Prisons, military, Roads, Social Security (Coming soon), disaster recovery (Katrina)

The making of money by creating money, usary interest rates, comodification of private information.

NOTHING is sacred, everything is for sale.

TAKE BACK AMERICA, America!
Reply to this comment
by apprxam April 27, 2008 9:03 PM PDT
Yeah....Brewster, ***?
Reply to this comment
by apprxam April 27, 2008 9:14 PM PDT
Monsanto is the example of international hegemony that the rest of the world fears. Selling "suicide" to poor, underdeveloped countries, perpetually dependent on this company''s aegis.

Ken Lay pulled that *** with the Indian government regarding those power plants they built, but didn''t need. The US Commerce dept pushed complaints to the WTO when some African countries and the EU wouldn''t allow their "franken seeds'' to be planted for fear of windblown contamination. This is precisely the type of heavy handed tactics foreign nations resent.

Now it''s the American family farmer, with the help of Congress and various state legislatures that grab subsidies meant or believed to be for small farms.
Reply to this comment
by missingamerica April 27, 2008 9:16 PM PDT
lollll...meanwhile, what of the sons and daughters of those same small farmers that the corporations abuse while the Republicans avert their eyes?

They happily go off to fight a war that was created to enrich the same corporations that will later oppress them in turn, if they survive, and all for "God and Country".
Reply to this comment
by apprxam April 27, 2008 9:16 PM PDT
"Suicide Seeds"
Reply to this comment
by liberalme April 27, 2008 9:21 PM PDT

They happily go off to fight a war that was created to enrich the same corporations that will later oppress them in turn, if they survive, and all for "God and Country".

Posted by ibsteve2u at 09:16 PM :

Sad but true steve but it won''t stop unless we stop it!
Reply to this comment
by apprxam April 27, 2008 9:36 PM PDT
Patriotic to a fault is right on point. The waving of the flag without critical thinkning as to who and what is directing the chorus (George "AWOL" Bush & Prick "Five Deferment" Cheney).

Wars of this type will never end and governmental treason will become ever more natural.
Reply to this comment
by stevador39 April 27, 2008 10:25 PM PDT
Monsanto is the creator of Agent Orange and Napalm. They have put many dairy farmers out of business trying to force the use of their growth hormones in cows. Monsanto is poising the earth and threatening the food crops of the people of the world and the U.S.
Reply to this comment
by truthalways April 27, 2008 11:37 PM PDT
Monsanto is preparing the way for the antichrist...to control the food production in the world...

It''s written in the books of revelation...those who do not have the mark of the beast will not get food...

Mosanto wil control the food prodcution by running all small farmers out of business...producing seeds that no one can plant...also seeds that will lead to seedless fruits....
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 April 28, 2008 12:58 AM PDT
I posted the points in this story a while back, and was debated as to the legitimacy of my points.

Monsanto is trying to control the world''s food, a plot straight out of "Austin Powers", or "Get Smart".

Time to end this.
Reply to this comment
by rudy654-2009 April 28, 2008 1:34 AM PDT
Little about this mafia organization makes the headlines as it is. Right now they have begun to strong arm milk producer who advertise that they don''t use Monsanto''s growth hormone. They are also trying to strong arm groups like the Mennonites and Amish who continue to sell milk as they always have.
Reply to this comment
by caliengineer April 28, 2008 2:21 AM PDT
Understand: Monsanto, servant to the some elite power brokers as the banking system, is now using what the banks used in the 20''s and 30''s: tactics to destroy small players and collect market share to themselves. This is evil.
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