8 Questions About The Pennsylvania Primary

Washington Post: The Expectations, Lessons, And Potential Repercussions Of Today's Contest

(WASHINGTONPOST.COM)  This story was written by Dan Balz.

---

What will it take to be declared the winner in Pennsylvania today?

1. Conventional wisdom has taken such a beating in this campaign that setting expectations for today's primary continues to confound the experts. The only thing everyone can agree on is that, given the makeup of Pennsylvania -- an older population with a significant blue-collar constituency and a sizable proportion of Roman Catholics -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton should win the popular vote. But as Democrat Matt Bennett put it, the candidates are like publicly-traded companies that need to hit an earnings target to lift their stock price.

But just what are the targets? Some say Clinton needs to win by 10 points -- which was her margin in Ohio last month. Others say eight points. Some say, given the amount of money Sen. Barack Obama is spending on television ads, anything over five points would be a respectable victory for Clinton. Staying within five points would give Obama the opportunity to assert that he overcame a state whose demographics tilted heavily to Clinton.

But the margin in the popular vote ultimately will be secondary to how Pennsylvania affects the battle for pledged delegates. Pennsylvania is the biggest remaining prize on the calendar, with 158 pledged delegates. Clinton badly needs to make up ground in the delegate fight and, given the way they're distributed, that could be difficult.

In the words of one Democratic strategist, the popular vote margin is a "feel-good barometer that may play out over a few days and longer if there is a big win, but then we will be on to the next contests. Ultimately, the second indicator [delegates] is more important and will have a longer effect because it is still the criteria we use to select a nominee."

Has the campaign weakened Obama or Clinton more for the general election?

2. Many Democrats argue that, when compared with where they stood at the start of the nomination battle in early 2007, Obama and Clinton have become stronger and more effective candidates. Clinton has demonstrated resilience, doggedness and grit in the face of continued adversity. Obama began as a totally untested candidate and has run a remarkably effective campaign that has generated passion and energy.

But as Pennsylvanians vote today, the candidates are showing the wear and tear of this long and grueling process. Clinton's negative ratings have risen dramatically over the past few months. She began with doubts about her credibility and trustworthiness, which have only intensified. In last week's Post-ABC News poll, her unfavorable rating was higher than it has ever been.

Obama also looks weaker than he did when he was running the table in late February with big victories in such places as Virginia, Wisconsin and some smaller-state caucuses. Since then he has been beset by one controversy after another and, while he handled some of them effectively -- his speech on race being the prime example -- there is no question that Republicans see him as more vulnerable than they did before.

A Democratic strategist summed up the candidates this way: "Either can win the general election, but anybody who thought Democrats would waltz into the White House this fall was sadly mistaken."

[jgunther7]

Hillary has been following along behind Obama in the last few primaries hoping he would make the big fatal mistake that would blow him out of the water. Hillary was ready to pounce and take the lead. This last nuke option proves she is finally giving up. Obama hasn''t made the big mistake and she is faced with keeping her word and going the distance. However, she is no Rocky Balboa and doesn''t have the character to stick it out. She is out of money and out of support and can%u2019t go the distance. So what doe%u2019s she do, make a grand stand play promising to nuke Iran as President of the United States. Not so good with the American public because it would be our military doing the killing and incriminating us as a country of war criminals. This is a very desperate political move on her part as there is no turning back. Even Hillary Clinton could not lye her way out of this one. But she now has another cunning plan, her empty promise to nuke Iran makes her a big hero in New York were they don%u2019t like Iranians. This gives her a clear path to win the next New York Senate election. She could care less what people in Pennsylvania or anywhere else think of her; New York is now her focus. She has given up the race.

[samthetvcat]

-----"One Republican described Obama''s weakness as elitism. Another called it an "out-of-the-mainstream view of the world," and a third described his problem as a liberal-cultural disconnect of the kind that hurt John Kerry and Michael Dukakis in their elections."-----

That''s not it . . . when none of the candidates fail to hit the mark with voters, ppl will tend to gravitate towards the candidate most like them. And usually that means race, gender, age, and to a lesser extent life experiences. Blacks prefer Obama, white women prefer Hillary, and white men prefer McCain.

So just by virtue of the numbers, the burden is on Barack more than any other candidate to hit the mark.

Being against the war, and the Democratic platform which is antithetical to ''let them eat cake'' helps, but really making the case that we''re going to get from where we are to a place of greater peace and prosperity would be even better . . .

[samthetvcat]

oops that was supposed to say ''when none of the candidates hit the mark'' or ''when the candidates fail to hit the mark'' . . .

[samthetvcat]

PS Oh, and I guess that failure to hit the mark I meant mostly with those hit hardest by blue-collar manufacturing job losses . . . many of us think Barack is GREAT!

[samthetvcat]

omg, my mind in the morning is like the scrambled eggs I just ate - bluh - by failure to hit the mark I guess I meant that like you know China''s got that economic advantage of cheap labor, so it''s hard to find a viable and sustainable alternative . . . no easy answers. Hence, it''s virtually impossible for any candidate to hit the mark. Like those ''green collar jobs'' that all 3 candidates are touting because the Germans introduced it to combat unemployment, everybody knows are heavily subsidized, and that if there''s truly money to be made the Chinese are going to reverse engineer the technology and make it for cheaper, which means that ''green collar jobs'' aren''t truly a plan for sustainable prosperity through competitive advantage. At least Democrats are willing to subsidize the industry unlike McSame, which gives us an edge in the election, but anyway my point was that maybe that''s why the race is deadlocked, especially when it comes to the rust belt . . .

[realpatriot1]

SamtheTVCat,

I hear what you''re saying but bear in mind that as Chinese and Indian workers become more prosperous they are demanding more pay and benefits and those rapidly developing economies are beginning to experience their own inflationary pressures.

The pay disadvantage for American workers is shrinking but the advantage in productivity and quality from American workmanship is not shrinking.

There is hope for the future of the American workforce if American management can get it''s *** together.

[dchu76]

i predict a 53-46 win for clinton and a slew of endorsements for obama in the coming days and the pressure to be ratched up a few notches on clinton to quit.

[arealist]

Democrats are complaining about high gas prices and low wages. Yet, part of the reason that there are low wages is because of illegal immigration. High gas prices are partly because Dems. refuse to let companies drill for oil anywhere in the US, therefore, we have to get our oil from other countries, who love it. Who has the highest gas in the country. California, where they have strict environmental standards and it costs money.

We do need other energy alternatives, but corporations need money to do research and if their taxes increase, do you think they are going to increase their research. Plus, if you raise taxes they are going to leave the country to get less environmental regulation, lower employee cost and less taxes. When they leave everyone will be complaining about no jobs.
Dems own policies are causing the very problems they complain about. You can''t have your cake and eat it too.

[jack3213]

THE ONLY WINNER HERE IS MCCAIN. BETWEEN THE TWO UNQUALIFIED LYING DEMOCRATIC TAX RAISING SCAMMERS MCCAIN IS OUR ONLY BEST BET FOR CHANGE THAT DOESN''T COME AT A PRICE THAT DEVASTATES OUR COUNTRY, IF YOU THINK A REPUBLICAN IS NOT YOUR CHOICE BECAUSE OF BUSH THAT IS AS BAD AS VOTING FOR A SCUM LIKE CLINTON BECAUSE SHE IS A ''WOMAN'' OR OBAMA WHO IS ''BLACK'' DOUBLE STANDARDS- THOSE TWO ARE THE MOST INEXPERIANCED CANDIDATES IN AMERICA

[paris1969]

Hillary Clinton will have a landslide win today, showing that people continue to be more comfortable with someone they know, then an unknown who keeps surprising us with his past and his comments that show his lack of experience and understanding of the voting public.

[jld1959]

I say let the primaries run out and then kick Billary out.
Rain sleet or snow Hillary is after the dough.
Smears, lies, untruths out her mouth sprout
the most delegates, states and popular vote, Obama has won without doubt.
The nation has spoken and we prefer Obama, So Hillary get out.

Do you know the difference between Hillary and Obama?

Hillary never makes the same mistake twice.

Obama never makes the mistake, because he learns from Hillary!

Hillary= Smart, capable Obama= Wise man

Obama 08

[pepperp1]

It Ain%u2019t the Color of the Skin, It%u2019s the Thickness ;
By Larry Johnson No Quarter Blog
Barack Obama%u2019s supporters, fearing a blowout in Pennsylvania, are already %u201Cpreparing the battlefield%u201D for the spin war to come tonight. As Susan noted so brilliantly yesterday, the root of the racism that permeates Barack%u2019s campaign resides in fear. A Hillary victory in Pennsylvania today will stoke their fears. They will attribute Barack%u2019s poor showing to racism. You know, %u201Cwhite Americans don%u2019t want to vote for a black man.%u201D
What Barry Obama and his acolytes don%u2019t understand is that today most Americans don%u2019t give a *** about how much melanin you have. The days of Jim Crow are gone. The days of putting people with dark skin at the back of the bus are gone. It is not the norm. It was in the sixties, but the courage of Martin Luther King and other black leaders coupled with the action of white leaders, such as Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Act, helped us start turning a corner on race relations.
Those of us who are over fifty can remember a time when it was unusual to have a black man or woman serve in public office. Blacks weren%u2019t mayors, governors, or senators. But no longer. We don%u2019t just celebrate black entertainers and black athletes. Dr. King%u2019s dream is becoming fact. But Barack and his campaign have tried, with some success, to play the victim card.

[shutupnvote]

Please recall that when ever you read Wapo and Newsweek they are the same media company that LIED about our solider at GB flushing the Muslim holy work down toilets and caused violence in Afghanistan. That editor now works for GE at the NBC MSNBC Obama network, Why dose GE leadership team love America as much as we do O don%u2019t buy their products any more and I canceled my sub to Newsweek%u2026..

Always ask your self what is their Agenda why do they poo pooh Obamas extremist ties...and lack of a credible resume all the while claiming his is positive when he and his campaign slander, worse then any republican, his competition with vicious personal attacks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/16/AR2005051601262.html

[shutupnvote]

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/


Backwards and in high heels
I%u2019ve been watching politics since 1972. And this is the first campaign I%u2019ve ever seen where winning wasn%u2019t enough. I%u2019m using, of course, the quaintly old-fashioned definition of winning, which means %u201Cgetting more votes than your opponent.%u201D
The new-fashioned definition of winning, as applied exclusively to Hillary Clinton, means something like %u201Cgetting n more votes than Obama, ...the ***** of the media/Blogger Boyz in order to make sure that Barry is never seen to be losing.%u201D
This morning the LA Times did its bit with an article helpfully entitled, %u201CWhat to look for in the Pennsylvania primary.%u201D (A pony?) Bottom line: unless Hillary wins by at least 10%, she will have lost!
How did they come up with 10%? It%u2019s simply the biggest number they think they can get away with. In the past n for Pennsylvania has been much higher %u2014 I%u2019ve seen 20, 30% bandied about %u2014 ..knows Barry%u2019s spending something like a quadrillion dollars a day in campaign ads. The ***-extractors have got to at least give a nod in that direction in order to maintain credibility with the other ***-extractors. So now we%u2019re down to 10%.
The Obama campaign/mainstream media/Blogger Boyz consortium has been spinning this kind of nonsense for so many months now that it%u2019s started to seem normal. But it%u2019s not normal.

[blackspirit3]

40 YEARS OF CLINTON RAPING WOMEN

A 1969 charge by a Eileen Wellstone, said Clinton assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford University campus where the future President was a student.
In 1972, a 22-year-old woman told campus police at Yale University that she was sexually assaulted by Clinton, who was a law student at the college.
In 1974, a female student at the University of Arkansas complained that then-law professor Bill Clinton groped her and forced his hand inside her blouse
Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton''s attorney general campaign, said he raped her in 1978;
From 1978-1980, Arkansas State troopers assigned to protect the governor reported seven complaints from women who said Clinton forced, or attempted to force, himself on them sexually.
Elizabeth Ward, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have *** with him shortly after she won her state crown.
Paula Corbin, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral ***.
Sandra Allen James, President Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation''s capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress.
Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, reported that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November, 1993.

[jld1959]

Re: pepperp1

The Best Days of America are now.
We will work tirelesly to fulfill the noble creed of the United States of A. To a time where the President has your welfare in mind and answerable to the people. Right now the American citizen has an insignificant voice on policy. Change that!
Why be cynical. allow the belief that if we all unite to make America better for us all.

Just imagine

It is a beautiful thought

I believe it is possible with Obama

[ozonmojo]

The media has made it easier for McCain to beat Obama in November by brazenly and unabashedly building up the latter until the ABC debate that has tried to set matters right.Those that have planned to vote for Hillary will now vote for McCain in a big way and crush Obama.

[mudrose-2009]

The Best Days of America are now.
We will work tirelesly to fulfill the noble creed of the United States of A. To a time where the President has your welfare in mind and answerable to the people. Right now the American citizen has an insignificant voice on policy. Change that!
Why be cynical. allow the belief that if we all unite to make America better for us all.

Just imagine

It is a beautiful thought

I believe it is possible with Obama
Posted by jld1959

I''m sure these lyrics come from a John Lennon song. With a reputation for stating "Prsent" on votes and never once working with another Senator on any bi-partisan issue in his wee 3 years as a virtual unknown, this guy is going to be the great uniter. Yeah. Okay. About the only thing he''s going to unite is his undying sympathy for racists, bigots and terrorists.

[nolalou]

JACK3213, you complain about the lack of experience of Obama and Clinton, but one of our greatest presidents , Abe Linclon, had less goverment experince than either of them, failing to win a seat in the US Senate before he ultimatly won the Prsidency in 1860! The President with the most goverment experience was James Buchanan, with years in the congress followed by several terms in the senate, yet he is viewed by most historians as one of our worse presidents!

I''d take eitehr Obama or Clinton over more failed ''Bush'' policies, which is what you''d get with McCain!

[obamasgranny]

Posted by BLACKSPIRIT3 at 12:21 PM : Apr 22, 2008
___________________________________________________
Get over it!! Obama is weak and should go back to baking pot brownies for Michelle!! Maybe if she lets him, he could be president of the local PTA!!

NOBAMA 08,...He is simply too weak!!

[jlbizzle]

The saddest part of this Democratic primary will come after The Republicans destroy Obama in the general, if he gets it. Yes, he''s inspirational, and all the kids are swooning... But he was in office for 1 year, prior to running for President. After 8 years of the worst President in US history, do you really want to put your faith in a rookie? Anyone who thinks he will "change" Washington, has their head in the clouds. Continue swooning & "hoping", but be prepared for a big let-down. And more of the same. There will be no denying it, unfortunately. PS ~ "change" will happen no matter who becomes President.

[truth--hurts]

Hillary says she is tough enough for the job? Like how she broke down in tears before the NH primary? Give me a break. Hillary''s a two-faced weasel in pant suits who will do or say anything to get elected.

[obamasgranny]

Posted by BLACKSPIRIT3 at 12:21 PM : Apr 22, 2008
_________________________________________________
I''d take Miss Arkansas over Larry Sinclair any day!!

[truth--hurts]

Hillary is too weak to be president.

Hillary mismanaged a campign from a 30 point lead to certain defeat. She''s squandered a huge superdelegate lead and squandered millions of dollars. She''s turned the Democratic Party into a hornet''s nest of discontent and bickering over immaterial issues.
Pennsylvania can spare us any more of this bug smushed on our windshield. Hit the wipers once and let us focus on how much better off we''ll be with Obama than with McCain. That''s what matters. Hillary had her chance and she blew it big time.

[jld1959]

RE: mudrose

You miss the point. It''s not about the man Obama, but the ideas of Americans long dead that are reawakened to finally get back on the road towards our destiny.
Feel the power to say as a citizen I want to participate in the endeavor to give America back it''s voice and rightousness.

Change you shoud believe in!!!

Obama 08

[obamasgranny]

America will never elect a Whiney little "girly-man" to be president!!
Maybe Michelle will LET Barack be president of the local PTA?! That''s as close as he will get!!

NOBAMA 08,...NO WHINING!!

[samthetvcat]

---"I hear what you''''re saying but bear in mind that as Chinese and Indian workers become more prosperous they are demanding more pay and benefits and those rapidly developing economies are beginning to experience their own inflationary pressures."---
Posted by realpatriot1

Great points realpatriot! Wow, am I sure sour and pessimistic before the coffee''s fully kicked in LOL.

You know what Barack had an obscure little idea buried in his policy positions on his website way back in October - it''s probably still there - anyway, his big, out of the box idea was for Government to take on more of a venture capitalist approach when it comes to the economy, prosperity, stimulus, and policy. So instead of having limited regulation and bailouts after the fact like the GOP propose, he''d instead have targeted oversight and regulation, combined with analysis of market trends and aggressive targeted investment in industries with great sustainable growth potential. Green jobs would be just ONE example of that.

Like, I guess yeah China and India''s labor advantages''ll even out eventually, but until then we can prosper through first entry into emerging markets and continuous innovation. We''ll start with green jobs, and when the Chinese knock-off our ideas, we''ll come up with something else!

Yes we can! Dems 08, the Repubs say let them eat cake!

[realpatriot1]

jid1959,

Do you see what cynicism does to people?

If you hope for something better you''re naive but if you continue to support the same people who brought us to this point you''re being real.

It''s a crcok promoted by brainwashed people who''ve been conditioned to not expect or demand any better.

I''d rather go down in flames fighting for something better that never materializes than accept defeat like these fools. At least with soemone committed to change there''s a chance;with the same old tried and true there''s zero chance od anything ever getting better.

[whatithink-2009]

Posted by realpatriot1 at 12:51 PM : Apr 22, 2008

Good post!

[tulcak]

the pundits, the media (which is big business and therefore republican) want so bad for clinton to win because they know that she cannot win against mccain OR that the race will be so close, the republicans can pull their old voting tricks and steal another election... this is a sad state of affairs... and, if it happens yet again, i am permanently moving out of the country (i''ve lived overseas for over a year and I love it!) because America does not exist anymore - it is just a big business now

[samthetvcat]

PS I think maybe where both Hillary and Barack are failing to connect is by quantifying the $50bil investment in green-collar jobs by breaking it down into how it''s going to manifest on the personal level. Like is that money going to be broken down into $1bil per state, and will that may x number of jobs? And what will the qualifications be - who might benefit?

That sort of a deal (?) I think that''s what ppl are waiting for rather than the whiskey and beer, Scranton granpa, Altoona bowling, Bosnian snipers, SF ''bitter'' quips, etc (?)

[jgunther7]

I admire the way Barack Obama maintains his dignity and poise through all the pettiness and slander. He seems to stay above the fray and keep a cool head, very presidential indeed. He has an innate gift to inspire people and bring them together, and make them forget their petty differences. He will not only be able to bring the American people together, but the people of the whole world. Hopefully he will be able to unite us and lead us to achieve great things.

John McCain is a man of impeccable integrity and patriotism. While I disagree with his foreign policies; I admire his steadfast adherence to his convictions. He is a man of principals.

Either one would be a far superior choice to Clinton, who represents none of the above.

[realpatriot1]

SamtheTVCat,

There''s quite a few people on this board that I would describe as sour and pessimistic, you are jsut about the last one I would describe that way! Actually, you''ve brought me out of a sour mood more than once with your optimism.

[obamasgranny]

Posted by tulcak at 12:53 PM : Apr 22, 2008
_______________________________________________
Get back to reality!! Obama will NEVER win the general election,...he is weak and flawed!! Maybe Michelle will let him run for PTA president?

[realpatriot1]

Some Men see things as they are and say why? I see the way things should be and say why not?-

Bobby Kennedy

[whatithink-2009]

"he is weak and flawed!!
Posted by OBAMASGRANNY"

- So you are saying Bush is strong and unflawed, since he was elected twice?

[whatithink-2009]

The definition of insanity -

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

[obamasgranny]

Posted by whatithink at 12:59 PM : Apr 22, 2008
___________________________________________________
I didn''t say anything about Bush, he is an idiot. Obama is the one who is running for president not Bush. We do not need to go from George Bush to Curious George.

[realpatriot1]

Obamasgranny,

Let''s all get back to reality...all these candidates are weak and flawed. all candidates before them who''ve gone on to be elected were considered weak and flawed.

None of these candidates is more weak or flawed than Clinton, Carter,Reagan, Bush, Nixon, or Truman, just to name a few.

[samthetvcat]

---"Democrats are complaining about high gas prices and low wages. Yet, part of the reason that there are low wages is because of illegal immigration. High gas prices are partly because Dems. We do need other energy alternatives, but corporations need money to do research and if their taxes increase, do you think they are going to increase their research."---
Posted by ARealist

Dems need to make a point of aggresively highlighting their triangulated position of maintaining heavy tax breaks for investments into research. I think both Hillary and Barack support this.

ARealist, I guess the GOP idea is that if we could get rid of all the illegals, then wages would go up and ppl would want to go back to those jobs (or something like that?). What I wonder is how do you know you can trust McCain to have your back? Because for years he''s taken one position, and now he''s pledging to do something else, but as a maverick does he seem to Conservatives to be somebody who''s going to do what he says he''ll do to you all?

And even assuming he does crack down on immigration, given the GOP stance on free trade, wouldn''t businesses then pack up and follow the illegals home to Mexico so that the higher wages won''t hurt their profit margin?

So what exactly is the GOP plan for creating jobs? Is it just free market forces like we''ve had the last 8 years?

[samthetvcat]

---"Actually, you''ve brought me out of a sour mood more than once with your optimism."---
Posted by realpatriot1

Ah ha ha - that''s why I hang out at these boards! Lots of give and take :)

[obamasgranny]

Posted by realpatriot1 at 01:02 PM : Apr 22, 2008
_________________________________________________
True, they are all flawed but if Obama couldn''t confront his own Pastor after 20 years, what kind of change do you really think he is capable of? He is a whiney little girly-man and the USD will be viewed as weak if he is elected.

[krenz4]

pepperp, YOU need to face a few facts, you claim that ''most americans don''t care about the amount of melanin in your skin". And I have to ask you what planet are you living on? Most americans want to claim that they dont see color, but if that were the case, which it is not, Why is there so much fear and hatred swirling around Obama in this election. Even if he were playing the ''race" card, who would he be playing it to, it race were a nonissue to most people? There are a LOT of hysterical, panicking white folks out here about this election of YES,a black man. Anyone so foolish as to believe that with all the racial hatred and fear going on in this country, that it has nothing to do with skin color! I wont even go into the things that me and my black self have to hear and see EVERYDAY, so take off the blinders and look around.America is NOT a nation of colorblind individuals who judge people on their merits and bearing,They are a country of people where skin color is the first basis of judgement. It may be a nonissue on ''dancing with the stars'', but out on the street, it matters.

[whatithink-2009]

OBAMASGRANNY,

You IMPLIED that anyone who wins a national election must be STRONG and UNFLAWED. If you think Bush is weak and flawed, then you contradict yourself.

[obamasgranny]

I believe that Obama will be the nominee and man oh man will he get pummeled!! The Democrats have painted themselves into a losing corner,...too bad really. Perhaps next time they will properly vet all candidates before allowing it to go this far.

[samthetvcat]

---"They are a country of people where skin color is the first basis of judgement. It may be a nonissue on ''dancing with the stars'', but out on the street, it matters."---
Posted by krenz4

LOL

[whatithink-2009]

krenz4,

You didn''t get the memo that racism is dead? It was sent right after all those southerners left the democratic party because of the civil rights movement.

[realpatriot1]

ARREalist,

Are you saying that the oil comapnies raking in record profits need a goverment bailout to fund "research".

Get a grip. Green technology already exists, mostly in Europe and Israel.

That''s not to say that there isn''t enough blame to go around for both parties and I do agree with you that the Democrats have been part of the problem. One of the problems I do have with the Clinton years is that we didn''t adequately address alternative energy when the economy and investment climate was better.

[obamasgranny]

Posted by whatithink at 01:07 PM : Apr 22, 2008
___________________________________________________
No I just pointed out that Obama IS flawed,...it doesn''t mean someone who is flawed cannot win the presidency,...but Obama is too weak to get elected. The general election will prove this to be true,...if he and his supporters are whining about the last debate,...WOW!! you aint seen nothin yet!!

[tulcak]

clinton and mccain are "experienced" in the bullsh*t that the big business machine runs in washington. i don''t want experience, i want change... those two are just like lieberman - republicans, conservative... AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE ARE IN THE MESS WE ARE. no thanks, i''d rather have nader or the winner from idol, but to continue the way we are is to move further and further away from what America is. end of story... so, blah blah blah away....