Polygamist Sect Kids To Undergo DNA Tests

Judge Rules FLDS Children Will Remain In State Custody While Relationships Are Clarified

(CBS/AP)  More than 400 children taken from a ranch run by a polygamous sect will stay in state custody and be subject to genetic testing, a judge ruled Friday.

State District Judge Barbara Walther heard 21 hours of testimony over two days before ruling that the children be kept by the state. Individual hearings will be set for the children over the next several weeks.

She ordered that all children and parents be given genetic testing. Child welfare officials have said they've had difficulty determining how the children and parents are related because of evasive or changing answers.

Earlier in the day experts for the state testified at the custody hearing for the youngsters, saying girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation.

The renegade Mormon sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist and an authority on children in cults.

But under questioning from defense lawyers who lined up in the courtroom aisles to have a turn at each witness, the state's experts acknowledged that the sect mothers are loving parents and that there were no signs of abuse among younger girls and any of the boys.

The testimony came on Day 2 of an extraordinary mass hearing over an attempt by the state of Texas to strip the parents of custody and place the children in foster homes away from the compound inhabited by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

A witness for the parents who was presented by defense lawyers as an expert on the FLDS disputed the state's contention that a bed in the retreat's gleaming white temple was never used to consummate the marriages of underage girls to much older men.

Instead, W. John Walsh testified, it is used for naps during the sect's long worship services.

"There is no sexual activity in the temple," Walsh said.

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Read about how the YFZ Ranch was founded as a corporate hunting retreat.

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The children were seized this month in a raid on the desert compound because of evidence of physical and sexual abuse, including the forcing of underage girls into marriage and childbearing.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther boiled it down this way: "The issue before the court is: Can I give them back?"

Attorneys for the children and the parents appeared to be trying to show in cross-examination that their children were fine and that the state was trying to tear families apart on the mere possibility that the girls might be abused when they reach puberty several years from now.

Only a few of the children are teenage girls. Roughly a third are younger than 4 and more than two dozen are teenage boys. But about 20 women or more gave birth when they were minors, some as young as 13, authorities say.

Two mothers in a polygamist sect admitted during testimony that they knew of underage marriages and births at the west Texas ranch raided by authorities two weeks ago.

Lucille Nielson said she was nearly 20 when she got married but knows of roughly a dozen girls younger than 18 who were married at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado. Another mother admitted that her sisters had children old enough to demonstrate they were married before age 18.

Four mothers testified Friday in a hearing designed to determine whether 416 children taken into state custody should remain there.

The women all spoke in soft, measured tones and often gave only "yes" or "no" answers.

The judge controlled the hundreds of lawyers with a steelier hand Friday than she did the day before.

Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss (left) conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.

But her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS - to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs - amount to abuse.

"This is a population of women who appear to have a problem making a decision on their own," Voss said.

In response, the FLDS women groaned in chorus with their dark-suited attorneys.

Walsh disputed that young girls have no say in who they marry.

"Basically, they're into match-making," he said of the sect, adding that girls who have refused matches have not been expelled.

"I believe the girls are given a real choice. Girls have successfully said, 'No, this is not a good match for me,' and they remained in good standing," he said.

Perry testified that the girls he interviewed said they freely chose to marry young. But he said those choices were based on lessons drilled into them from birth.

"Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," he said. "Compliance is being godly; it's part of their honoring God."


Perry (left) acknowledged that many of the adults at the ranch are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy when he played with them. When asked whether the belief system really endangered the older boys or young children, Perry said, "I have lost sleep over that question."

Under questioning, Perry also conceded the children would suffer if placed in traditional foster care.

"If these children are kept in the custody of the state, there would have to be exceptional and innovative programmatic elements for these children and their families," he said. "The traditional foster care system would be destructive for these children."

At that, dozens of FLDS parents applauded.

Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor, said courts have generally held that a parent's belief system cannot, in itself, justify a child's removal. He said, for example, that a parent might teach his child that smoking marijuana is acceptable, but only when he helps the child buy pot does he cross the line.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't" take the children, Volokh said.

The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her. Investigators have yet to identify her among the children seized.

Rod Parker, one of the attorneys representing the sect, told CBS News that he doubts she even exists.

Jeffs is in prison for being an accomplice to rape. He was convicted in Utah last year of forcing a 14-year-old into marrying an older man.

Walsh testified that the renegade Mormon sect did not promote underage marriages until imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs took over as the sect's "prophet."

"He encourages marriage," Walsh said. "In some ways, he's indifferent to their age."

Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.

The court hearing disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or lined up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.

One of the issues is whether authorities overstepped their bounds, reports CBS News correspondent Hari Sreenivasan. In a household where abuse is suspected, Texas law allows every child to be removed, so defining "household" could become pivotal.

In a possibly related development, police in Colorado Springs, Colo., have made an arrest of a 33-year-old woman and charged her with false reporting to authorities, reports Sreenivasan. At the moment, it is in an unrelated case, but the arrest did happen a day after Texas Rangers were investigating what happened in San Angelo.

Colorado Springs police Lieutenant Skip Arms says Rozita Swinton was arrested in Colorado Springs on Wednesday on a misdemeanor charge of false reporting to authorities. The incident occurred in February.

Arms says the Texas Rangers notified officials in Colorado Springs they were coming to the city as part of an investigation into the polygamist sect and into Swinton.

Arms says the Rangers left without filing charges against Swinton.

Authorities raided the Texas compound on April 3rd.

Since March 29th, Swinton has been talking to Flora Jessop, the executive director of the Child Protection Project - a Phoenix-based organization that helps girls and women leaving the polygamous culture.

Agency founder Linda Walker says Jessop is a former member of the FLDS church who recorded the calls and passed the information on to law enforcement.

Walker won't say if she and Jessop believe Swinton is tied to the Texas call that brought about the raid, but says most of the details she gave about FLDS culture and beliefs were accurate.

"Also Friday, a woman who had been in a similar sect told Early Show anchor Julie Chen why the women in the sect dress in old-fashioned pioneer garb.

"This clothing started being restricted after the 1953 raid (on a polygamist compound in Colorado City, Ariz.),'' said Carol Jessop, author of the book "Escape."

"And at first, it was just that women couldn't wear pants any longer and they had to wear a dress or a skirt that was a certain length, and long sleeves and no low necks. Their hair had to be combed on top of the head. It couldn't be left hanging. Then, every five or six years, there would be another restriction added."

[cpaide]

ha, and there is still NOTHING good proof and evidence of ANYTHING of this allegations made by the KLK (krazy lesbians kult) social workers, but clean good proof of this false police reports by that 30-year-old woman who is saying she is 16-year-old girl who is raped by nasty old mormans, but this 50-year-old man is living in arizona--not in texas! do not believe what this KLK is telling you!

[barbaraf4]

"tomorrow is my birthday." Posted by cattlekate
~~~~~~~~
Happy Birthday!

[michellem99-2009]

Barbara Dear There are alot..I was in foster homes and I went thru all the forms of abuse ye post said. When the worker came EVERYTHING WAS FINE..but when the door was shutted and we were alone all hell broke loose..I can read people like yer Dad..One foster home ran a day care as well. Yep..One a child''s Mum came to me and asked* Who is hitting my child+ I told her foster mother as I never laid a paw on any child. She lost her day care busness as I was demasding fot a new home..I don''t understant that mind set..TX better understand what they are up against..This is a good time to teach paws off..Poor kids.. Barbara

[sspaur]

Lets look at what is really going on. Texas has over steped it authority. Take over 400 kids from their homes becasue they could be abused. I guess they will close all Cathloic and churces next since Preist have abused kids in both settings. If they cannot close the schools and churches Im sure they will want to remove all the children from the homes of parents that decide to send their children to places whre Priest may be. Where will it stop? Time for the Federal Courts to get involved.

[funkiwiteboy]

i seem to need a chtrume

[funkiwiteboy]

down south jukin with all my rowdy frien... oh i''m talkin to ya''lll again
what up?!?

[funkiwiteboy]

ha thats skynyrd

[funkiwiteboy]

how many unwed mothers are catholic moslem new-wave or regular church going folk? the color don''t freakin matter!!! the goverment is takin babies from mommas just cause what? skynerd knows I''m right AMEN

[cpaide]

"I think they should pass a new law that requires children who are being home schooled should be tested as to their knowledge of the US Constitution, and as to their knowledge of free choice."
Posted by RowdyTexan2

and if you are having any knowledge of u.s. constitution, my friend, you will know that this tests you proposing must be given to ALL children--not just the home-schooled.

and they must be tested regarding knowledge of due process and prohibition of unreasonable search and seizure.

then they grow up to not point the finger so quickly at this nice humble mormans womens and childrens like this crazy lesbians social worker and judge and many posting here.

[barbaraf4]

"I''m going to take a moment to point out that most of us grow up without being sexually abused as a child, barbaraf4. That said, are you saying that the cult should have been allowed to keep the children and continue abusing them? Are you saying abuse is not really that awful? Do you have any kids or grandkids?"
Posted by skeezix06
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reread my post. No where did I say s*e*x*u*a*l abuse. Abuse takes many, many forms: verbal, physical and s*e*x*u*a*l abuse all have one goal. They destroy your soul and you get to spend a lifetime in theraphy. I am an abusee, NOT an abuser. It stops at my generation; however, my father was a highly respected man outside our home. No one knew what a monster he was when the front door closed behind him.

[cattlekate]

jamesm12341 - tomorrow is my birthday. Is there any way you could refrain, for just one day, your bullying, name-calling, goading, juvenile and non-productive posts?

Thank you.

[skeezix06]

I''m going to take a moment to point out that most of us grow up without being sexually abused as a child, barbaraf4. That said, are you saying that the cult should have been allowed to keep the children and continue abusing them? Are you saying abuse is not really that awful? Do you have any kids or grandkids?

[j-rubix]

The Jessop lady thats been working for more than four years with law enforcement said in an interview two days ago that babies were being beaten and the had their heads held under water until they stopped crying, and this little torture session until they were too exhausted to cry. Under Texas law CPS could''ve, on that alone, entered that compound and those kids. Why didn''t they do this four years ago when she started talking to them, why wait for a bogus phone call?

[rowdytexan2]

I think they should pass a new law that requires children who are being home schooled should be tested as to their knowledge of the US Constitution, and as to their knowledge of free choice.

They need to understand that their religion cannot take free choice from them, and that they are required to live by the law of the land, BEFORE religious beliefs are applied to their lives.

[rowdytexan2]

Considering the girl whom sparked the raid with an E911 call hasn''''t been found I have to wonder if the raid is the result of over zealous Texas Child Protective Services employees or an over zealous sheriff. Considering my experience with the Texas Child Welfare people I strongly suspect this a shoot first and justify the action later.


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Posted by scttbrunson at 05:40 PM : Apr 19, 2008

They have found 16 year olds with four babies...how do you account for the years she was breeding when she was basically a child.

And so, do you just think those people should''ve ignored the calls and done nothing? Maybe they should''ve just went...oh shucks, too bad, a bunch of inscestuous old men having *** with children and using them for breeding stock. Oh well...

It''s the against the law to have *** with minors without a LEGAL marriage license in Texas. These girls were spiritually married, nothing legal about it at all. On top of that they were taught that they had to obey and had not choice! I believe under the Constitution of the US, those girls should have been educated that they DO have a coice!

[klingon69]

Posted by MCVet at 09:23 PM : Apr 18, 2008

final proof that mcvets elevator doesnt go to the top floor.....this guy needs some serious help!
Posted by jamesm12341 at 10:51 PM : Apr 18, 2008
Normally, I would agree and applaud on this with you. However, experiences can and do differ from area to area. I attended a charismatic southern baptist church when first moved into my new neighborhood. We have since quit attending and the other day several of the youth tried to drag my son in off the street to attend a bible study session. Now I do know it is not this way with all of these churches, but it is true of many.

[klingon69]

Posted by Liberaljean at 08:50 PM : Apr 18, 2008
Is this True Progress? Maybe one of her students?

[barbaraf4]

Children have been abused by their parents since the beginning of time. That does not make it right, but it is an unfortunate fact of life. There are ugly secrets behind the front doors of America.

[skeezix06]

This is not about Job and his daughters. This is about 420 children who are apparently being abused by the people who are supposed to protect them.

It is commission of a crime by the cult and as such removal of the children to ensure their safety and the adults should be prosecuted thoroughly.

[barbaraf4]

"that is such a fu(ked up statement, it brings a jaw-dropping pause of disbelief and disgust -

just because the book of mormon encourages incest - it don''t make it right" Posted by sbbm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go back and read about Job and his daughters. It''s the Bible and it''s incest.