Democratic Debate's Winner: McCain?

The Nation: Obama, Clinton Event Offered No Clear Victor, Except For Right-Wing Talking Points

(The Nation)  This column was written by John Nichols.

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And the winner of the 21st debate of the Democratic presidential race is...

Right-Wing Talking Points.

At a moment when even John McCain agrees that the American economy is in a recession, when the U.S. trade deficit is breaking records, when the vice president and the secretary of state stand accused of organizing torture parties in Washington, when the president has gotten us bogged down in two foreign quagmires, and when official gaming of globalization has stirred up food riots around the world, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton spent most of the last debate before the critical Pennsylvania primary trying to out-FOX one another.

Instead of engaging in a needed discussion about economic issues - especially the trade policies that are devastating the Keystone State and so much of the rest of the country - the Democratic contenders sounded as if they were reading outtakes from a particularly lame Bill O'Reilly program.

To be fair, this was not entirely the fault of the candidates. The line of questioning from ABC "News" personalities Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos - Wednesday night's moderators, who pummeled Obama for most of the night - almost made a viewer long for a long-winded intervention by the CNN's self-absorbed but reasonably serious Wolf Blitzer. And the questions from viewers appeared to have been selected with the purpose of raising doubts about whether these people may be spending just a little too much time listening to Rush Limbaugh.

There were, of course, inquiries about the Rev, Jeremiah Wright Jr., including a demand that Obama explain whether he thinks an ex-Marine who raised legitimate questions about U.S. foreign policy should be considered "patriotic." Clinton made a bad moment worse by bringing up Hamas and Minister Louis Farrakhan in an obvious attempt to link Wright - and by extension Obama - to groups and individuals who do not get an especially free ride in U.S. media.

Clinton's trip to Bosnia was revisited, as was a comment she made 16 years ago about baking cookies.

Obama got asked why he does not wear a flag pin.

And both candidates were prodded by millionaire media personalities to talk about "elitism."

But the absolute low point of a debate that rarely left the low road came when former Clinton aide Stephanopoulos asked Obama about his meetings with Bill Ayers, a 1960s Weather Underground radical who went on to become a college professor.
Obama said he did not think he should be held to account for something someone he knows did "40 years ago when I was 8 years old."

Then, sounding more like Sean Hannity than a former anti-war activist from the '60s, Clinton said, "I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position. And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after (Ayers') reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every American, because they were published on 9/11, and he said that he was just sorry they hadn't done more... I know Senator Obama is a good man, and I respect him greatly. But I think this is an issue that certainly the Republicans will be raising."

Remarkably, Obama went down the Hannity hole with Clinton, complaining that Clinton's husband, when he served as president, "pardoned or commuted the sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is a slightly more significant act than me serving on a board with somebody for actions that he did 40 years ago."

This was an ugly, unilluminating debate that neglected meaningful concerns because so much time was spent introducing what had been the silly side issues of the far right to the mainstream discourse. It was especially rough on Obama. But there was no winner, expect, perhaps, John McCain.

[glenncinca-2009]

Both Clinton and Obama are dragging too much baggage around. So much that it won''t all fit in the White House. They should just quit now and let the country move on to a McCain presidency and spare everybody the drama.

[blazercoach1]

So on the one hand, the Nation deplores the name-calling and mud slinging done by the candidates. But then in the same articles it name-calls and mud-slings at people it disagrees with: O''Reilly, Sean Hannity, and even WOLF BLITZER!? Come on folks....Wolf Blitzer you throw under the bus calling him self-absorbed?

Seems like mud-slinging and name calling is something the the Dem candidates AND liberal publications have in common. Not that the right wing is any better. But THIS PUBLISHED ARTICLE ABOUT WHICH I AM SPEAKING shows a clear two-faced and hypocritical standard.

But having read The Nation on cbsnews.com for so long....I''m not sure what else I expected.

[peteracevedo-2009]

Check out the article %u201CBarack%u2019s %u201CUnderground%u201D Friends%u201D http://savagepolitics.com/?p=291


http://www.savagepolitics.com
brilliant writing plus it offers a great community in which to discuss. The editor actually takes time to answer and the political humor section is awesome!!!

[pepperp1]

Baloney Progressive Liberals need to put on your big girl and boy panties and get over your selves and your excessive advocacy for Obama nad his empty failed candidacy and lucky for the Dem Party Hillary has shut him down and every turn and stuff the MSM rants and lies down their throats showing them for the fools they are. Stop whining he can not win in Nov, a camp counselor so you folks feel better hopeful, is not on the agenda of the county or the majority in the Dem Base. Obama should step away before he further drags the Party down his upcoming loss in PA and before Rezko conviction may be a good time. Yeah she beat his Arse AGAIN poor poor poor pitiful Obama WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[glenncinca-2009]

There once was a saying, you are defined by the company you keep. The same holds for presidential candidates. And just who does Obama keep company with? Wright, Rezko, Farrakhan, Ayers...
Are some people so bedazzled by his soaring rhetoric and repetitious misuse of the word "hope" that they can''t see behind the facade? Or have their standards just fallen so low that they actually believe it is OK for a potential president to be consorting with low-lifes, criminals, and hate-mongers?

[pepperp1]

Mr. Obama should do as well or better among these voters if he is the Democratic candidate in November. If he doesn%u2019t, it won%u2019t be because he has offended the tender sensitivities of small-town Americans. It will be because he has embraced a misleading stereotype of who they are and what they care about.

Larry M. Bartels, t

[glenncinca-2009]

There once was a saying, you are defined by the company you keep. The same holds for presidential candidates. And just who does Obama keep company with? Wright, Rezko, Farrakhan, Ayers...
Are some people so bedazzled by his soaring rhetoric and repetitious misuse of the word "hope" that they can''t see behind the facade? Or have their standards just fallen so low that they actually believe it is OK for a potential president to be consorting with low-lifes, criminals, and hate-mongers?

[wakeup60]

The Debates went well last night. Both Clinton and Obama were in their element. Strong and confident with the answers they gave of the questions.Some of the ?''s,like "FLAG PINS"! Real Important Stuff here. Who cares.I''d rather know the character of the person/not a flag pin on a lapel!Didn''t see anyone else wearing one.Hillary''s pounces on Obama were not a good tactic/unless it would be for McCain when the time comes-Nor in "HER" best interest to win the nomination.Whomever is guiding her to make these negativity cutdown statistic remarks-is doing an injustice to her & her campaign. The Republican stench on it doesn''t bother a thing! One can decipher bullied bull from something common sense would over-ride in less than a second!Just as Obama said several times/The American Public is SMARTER THAN THAT! And "NO",Americans will "NOT" be calling McBush President! A great leader is coming and that will transpire with a Donkey @ the wheel! John Nichols,you amuse.Maybe it''s because you are such a JOKE/It''s a shame you cannot write anything that would be a challenge to both sides of the political coin to read.In great company though:GREEDY SLANT SLINGERS,Just like your Repulsive Republican Co-Hards/S.Hannity and Mr. Bill O''-and The Magical Trio of The Blonde Bomb Bats/not worthy of mention.Who could ever be attracted to any of those 3-maybe it''s the bad clariol hair and exposed legs/wouldn''t be what comes out of their mouths!

[wakeup60]

"Obama" ...
Out-Shines the other perspective imcumbents all the way to the White House...The "Excitement" people are experiencing is for real and long overdue for this country ... John F. Kennedy was a HOPE just like Obama is now!!! And, it will happen.

[glenncinca-2009]

Response to Wakeup60:
If JFK had kept the same kind of dubious company before becoming president that Obama has been consorting with for all these years (Wright, Farrakhan, Rezko, Ayers,...), Nixon would have been our president eight years earlier, and no one would have ever heard of "The Great Society" or the name "Jackie Onassis". Unfortunately for Obama, if he gets the Dem nomination, his only "hope" will be that he can snooker the American public. If not, the next first lady will be someone who actually loves her country.

[homjett]

I find it interesting that when it comes to the Demo Candidates, the MSM calls "trivial". But they made a mountain out of Pres Bush''s DUI. I thought the debate went well, finally someone daring to ask hard questions of Sen Obama. They could have been a tad more hard on Sen Clinton.

[element51]

Glenncinca....There''a no way in H_ell that we are going to roll over for McCain. As much as you would like for us to cut and run it just ain''t gonna happen. We have had it with these republican policies that have almost destroyed our country. If you enjoy living in a fools paradise go right ahead but come November you will have to find new quarters. The American people are fed up and although it takes a lot to put us there, once we have had enough we will rise up. Get ready because we are coming for YOU.

[andylance1]

McCain is 10 years younger than the Pope and 4 years younger than Ted Kennedy and much younger than Senator Byrd.

What we are all suffering from right now is candidate fatigue. We are just seeing too much from these two cobras, circling each other in a ritualistic fatal dance to political and social final death.

Cobras will use any and all tricks available to beat the other ivy-leaguer - Yale v Harvard v Naval Academy.

Go American - Go Navy Go McCain!

I won''t be voting for either Obama or Clinton. I will vote for John McCain. However, in my humble opinion....Hilary has a much better chance of winning against McCain. If Obama is going to complain and cry about all the personal questions he is asked....how in the world do you think he is going to stand up during the real debates. Hilary is more clever and adept at handling criticism. Her Washington political experience better equips her to play the political games necessary to win. Once the honeymoon wears off, Obama''s lack of experience is going to get him crucified. Democrats need to wise up and remember they are fighting a political war...not running a popularity contest. Hilary was always the one Democrats should have thrown their support to and presented a united front. Anyway, good luck to all the candidates...I have confidence that whoever is elected they will be kept in check by the other party. Yea! for American politics...still healthy and strong as you can see by all the posts here.

[truthspeake2]

OBAMA 2008...RIP Hillary and the GOP!

[efarris38]

CLINTON/BAYH 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Truth Shall Make You Free".......OBAMA needs to start answering to some of the "unknowns" about him. He lacks experience, Integrity and Humility. I cannot vote for Obama because of his severe lack in these areas.

[perceptions5]

The superdelegates issue really doesn''t matter and like the Titanic the Dems are going down in November.

Now for the American people''s view:

"Friday, April 18, 2008

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows John McCain leading Barack Obama, 48% to 42%. The presumptive Republican nominee also leads Hillary Clinton 50% to 41%. Daily tracking results are updated daily at 9:30 a.m. EST

Just 68% of Democrats say they would vote for Obama against McCain. Twenty-three percent (23%) would vote for the Republican, 5% for a third-party option, and 4% are undecided. Clinton attracts 71% of Democrats. In that match-up, 21% would vote for McCain, 4% say they would vote for some other candidate, and another 4% are undecided. McCain attracts 85% of Republicans against Clinton, 82% against Obama, and leads both Democrats by double digits among unaffiliated voters.

McCain is viewed favorably by 56% and unfavorably by 41%. Obama%u2019s ratings are 47% favorable and 51% unfavorable. For Clinton, those numbers are 43% favorable, 55% unfavorable ."

..............Any questions?????????

[mistered9]

Obama is getting scared. He want to finally talk about the issues and not him.
Maybe voters can now see the end of the tunnel, that he''s not what he looks to be, a sweet talker and that''s all.

[mistered9]

Truthspeaker49,you ought to look up in the diconary about the word truth. Obama ha nonthing but sweet BS. He is now afraid of voters finding he truth about him. Wake up people.

[mistered9]

hemjett, how much harded could they be on Clinton. You would believe she was the only one running. As far as Bush, I hope he will be proud to be the WORSE president this Country has ever had. I thought Qual was bad. And that goes for His duffice to.

[talkingham]

First all, these "debates" are not debates. They are little media circuses for the network announcers. The jackals are no longer newsmen and women, they just announce on the air what they are told to say, and why we have to endure these absurd mister announcer asking totally contrived questions and call it debates is beyond me.

A debate is supposed to be a discussion, argument if you will, about a specific question or set of issues, not what some former white house press corp with an ax to grind has to say. The ABC "debate" was simp[ly the worst excuse for a debate I''ve ever seen.

The candiates should stop wasting our and their time with this absurd format.

[glenncinca-2009]

To Elements51
You must be one of those insanely crazy wild-eyed liberals. And you threaten that you are going to "come after" us, huh? The only place you know how to "cut and run" is from the Terrorists. Maybe that''s because you sympathize with them. After all, just like Al Qaeda, you promise to "come after" us. You must be a domestic terrorist! You need to calm down and get a grip. Meanwhile, don''t associate McCain with Bush''s failed policies, any more than you would want Republicans to blame Obama for Wright''s wrongs or Hillary for approving the Iraq war. Oh also, please stop threatening people you don''t even know. It makes you look like an absolute idiot, which you probably are anyway.

[vfxtodd]

Presidential debates have almost never been completely civilized. A quick look back to the times of our Founding Fathers, and you''ll find they were just as negative as they are today. The difference is it travels quicker over the airwaves and the Internet. What is sad, is that news "mediators" are no longer the unbiased group they once were. Clearly CBS is becoming another FOX News; just another lapdog for the right wing extremists. People cry about terrorists when our current president has been the most successful terrorist of all. But, don''t let that stop your typical American from turning the other cheek just so they can get back to their self-indulgent little lives while the world around them crumbles. Life''s easier with your head in the sand.

[vfxtodd]

Mistered9,
What''s a "diconary"? Oh, you mean dictionary!? Funny, you tell someone to look up a word the ''diconary'' when clearly have no grasp of English yourself. You''re funny.

[random_radar]

It''s hard to believe that the Democrats are going to lose yet another presidential election.

[element51]

Glenncinca....Thank you for your response to my post. I haven''t heard such friendly comments from the other side for quite a while. Your assumptions about me are quite a revelation. You claim that I am a "wild eyed liberal". I''m not sure just what that is but I love my country and it is sad to see what has been happening. You call me a terrorist but you''re wrong. I served in the military during Nam and am very proud of having had the honor of serving my country. When I say "come after you" I mean that we will not back down like we have in past elections. Look, try to understand that you and I have much in common. We are both Americans before anything else. We may disagree on our politics but in the end we are in the same boat. I don''t want our country to fail anymore than you do. What happens to you happens to me as well. If we met on the street I have no desire to get violent with you. If you were in trouble and I could help you I would be there in a heartbeat. I think deep down you would do the same for me. So, come November you will vote your feelings as I will vote mine. Let''s hope that whatever the out come is our new leader will be able to make the right choices. America''s future is much more important than either of us.

[apakrat]

Why is the American press been keeping a dirty little secret? Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment of the 911 threat. Jihad is the only true Muslim way. Obama is not an American as we know it. He also pledges allegiance to Kenya. Please encourage your friends and associates not to be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide Jihad. Won''t that sound sweet to our enemies as they swear him in on the Koran!

[element51]

Glenncinca...I just went back and re-read my post that you responded to. Perhaps I was a little over the top there. Not being a professional journalist I sometimes have a little difficulty expressing what I really mean. I was just trying to say that in the past two elections our party did not stand up and fight for what we believe and that this election we are not going to just sit back and let ourselves get pounded. Your reference to me as a "wild eyed liberal, a domestic terrorist and an absolute idiot" are hurtful, personal attacks and I feel are un-warrented. I did not call you any names or in any way attack you as a person. I still mean what I said in my last post to you. We are in this thing together and like it or not, agree or not, we need to respect each other. How about it? Can we do that?

[johnny343sc]

Obama is a racist... plain and simple- go ahead, drink Barry Hussein''s kool-aid.

McCain 2008!!!
McCain 2008!!!
McCain 2008!!!


;)

[wakeup60]

Element 51''s 1st and 2nd comments were "RIGHT ON"-the Right!And said very eloquently I might add...As to Glenncinca''s 2 cent''s worth-I''m assured JFK knew several unsavory people peppered into the long list of greats along his path...as well as ANYONE else that is climbing any kind of LADDER/whether it be in politics, business, religion,etc.,etc.,etc.,...does not automatically make one The Anti-Christ. And thank somebody/that Nixon "WASN"T" in office 8 years earlier/he was good in foreign policy/but he also was a wiz on the piano,in the dark,talking to himself speaking & planning lots of bad stuff with Hoover-The Drudgery Cross Dresser and doer of mayhem for alot. Oh,Mr.Richard did turn out to be a CROOD-didn''t he!
I am very assured Mrs.Obama loves her country very much,as her husband does/she will make a Fine First Lady...a refreshing new face that will accomplish alot...for many.

[element51]

wakeup60...Thank you for the kind words.

[blackspirit3]

IF BEING SLEEVY IS A WINNER - THEN HILL-DA-BEAST WON
IF BEING TRIFFLIN IS A WINNER - THEN HILL-DA-BEAST WON
IF BEING A LIER IS A WINNER - THEN HILL-DA-BEAST WON
IF BEING A SCAPEGOAT FOR A LIER IS A WINNER - THEN ABC WON

[glenncinca-2009]

Elements51
You''re redeemed. No wild-eyed liberal. Just left of center politically. You were in the service. We share that in common. Look, the point is that McCain is NOT Bush, and is NOT guilty by association. Joining him at the hip with failed Bush policies is liberal crazy-talking points. Republicans view him as a maverick, and aren''t sure what to make of him. But like us, he is a true patriot. His service to our country has gone far beyond what you and I could possibly imagine. His character and strength have been tested to the limit. Politically, he is moderate. If joined to the hip with anyone, it''s Joe Lieberman! McCain''s policies will be much different from Bush''s. Regarding Bush, we''re tired of mindless liberal Bush-bashing mantras. On terrorism, remember he''s kept us safe every day since 9/11. It''s no accident. If there is blame for 9/11, look at what Hillary and Bill didn''t do during their co-presidency to prevent 9/11 and get Osama off the streets when it was easy. On Iraq, re-read the news stories leading up to the invasion. There was strong bi-partisan support, including Hillary%u2019s. Hussein snookered the world into thinking he had bad things hidden. Bush%u2019s post-invasion tactics were opposed by McCain. We''d already be out if McCain had had his way. Whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, we DO owe it to the good Iraqi people to stay and help them recover. Cut and run is irresponsible retreat from our moral obligation to them.

[blackspirit3]

IF BEING A NASTY TRIFFLIN SLEAZY LIER MEANS YOU WON THE DEBATE - THEN BY ALL MEANS HILLARY - YOU''RE THE CHUMP - I MEAN CHAMP LMAO

[glenncinca-2009]

To Wakeup60
You are obviously a true wacko. The institution you must be posting from should unplug your internet cable.

[element51]

Glenncinca....Doesn''t it feel so much better to have a respectful exchange than to spit insults at each other? I''m glad you posted back. While it''s clear that our political philosophies differ I don''t take exception with a single thing you said about McCain. In fact there was a time when I said that I wouldn''t have a problem with him in the White House. For several reasons that I won''t elaborate on I no longer feel that way but I don''t take a thing away from him as a patriot. We both know that this upcoming election is probably the most important one we have ever seen and it is imperative that the winner have our support until that support is no longer deserved. No one will get it all right. Mistakes will be made but let''s hope they are small ones. You know what they say about opinions...and it is certainly true with you and I. But I respect you and as I said we are both passengers on the same ship. Let''s pull together and help keep her afloat.

[noloyalisti]

Can you imagine the war-mongering mcBush being president. He is a crazy angry Bush on steroids. You think the conservative lunatics have made it bad for us now? Just wait until the corporate media fascists select this lunatic.

[joecoolswat]

Yeah, just wait..because the Terrorists better run and hide, Maverick McCain will not take threats against the U.S.

[element51]

JoeCool....Yeah, just what we need. Another shoot from the hip, bring em on cowboy. Scares me and I''m fearless. Look, diplomacy and negoation are the keys to keeping us all safe. The Chinese have a saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Makes a great deal of sense if you think about it. We need someone who will concentrate on making our ports and borders more secure while at the same time doing everything possible to gain the support of the rest of the world. My dad always told me not to start fights but that if I ever ran from one he would kick my azz. Since he was quite able to back that threat I learned the value of diplomacy pretty early on. I also learned that negoation was much preferable to a knuckle sandwich. I had exactly two fights in my life and "won" both of them. In one I broke my finger and in the other one I got a new shirt that I paid for ripped to shreads. Did I really win?

[vmcneal2]

Yeah, just wait..because the Terrorists better run and hide, Maverick McCain will not take threats against the U.S.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by JoeCoolSwat at 04:57 PM : Apr 18, 2008


John McSame should take care of his wifes drug problem before he goes after the bad guys.

[perceptions5]

One thing is for sure, Obama is a "product" of the most corrupt institution in America today, our mostly liberal MSM wolfpack press.

Just like Hilter was promoted by Joseph Gobbels, this Obama guy is being promoted in much the same manner, mass propaganda campaigns by his fellow admirers in our elite liberal press.

This isn''''t exactly the "separation" that our Founding Fathers wanted between our "press and state".

We need major reforms within our "free left-wing press".

No question about it........ask Saturday Night Live

ps. The Nation is a member of the Pro-Obama movement too...........like I had to tell everyone that.

Really sad indeed.........

[rushlimpdrug]

Did anyone wake up Mclame to tell him he won the debate?

If/when they wake him up straighten him out about the sunni/shiite guys.
He may have forgotten.

[element51]

perceptions5....Your "perception" on this one is a little off the mark. Who do you think owns the main stream media. It''s the big corporations who control the republican party. What possible reason would they have to promote Obama? One of the biggest media moguls is Rupert Murdoch and I doubt that he is a big Obama supporter. It gets kinda old listening to you guys cry about how the "liberal media" is so unfair. And look up the work "liberal" in the dictionary before you sling it around like it was something dirty.

[ajmarine1]

erasmus,


A special woman?


There''s the women I''d have s*x with,
and there''s the women I''d wanna have s*x with,
and there''s the women I have s*x with.

And then there''s you.


Tim McLaughlin



Until 1:00 AM.

[it_oldtimer]

Good bye, Hillary, good bye! It was nice knowing you! Too bad you were such an insufferable, self-aggrandizing ***!

[it_oldtimer]

McSame, you are such a despicable w*h*o*r*e for the right wing s*l*u*t*s -- you should feel so filthy for letting them use you this way!

[element51]

gce65....If the media was even half as hard on McCain as they are on Obama his campaign would be over in a week. I too wonder why he isn''t getting any tough questions. Some guy on this board was whining about the "liberal media" but they don''t seem very liberal to me. McCain has more skeletons in his closet than a halloween costume shop but we never hear about them from the media. It''s time for some hard ball here.

[parachutepol]

Look! Sen.Obama is a good man trying to fix some of the problem that divides us. Get it!