Polygamy Custody Hearings Chaotic So Far

Lawyers For More Than 400 Children Taken In Raid Demand To Read Evidence

(CBS/AP)  A court hearing to decide the fates of hundreds of children seized from a polygamist retreat was off to a chaotic start Thursday as hundreds of lawyers in two different locations demanded to study the first piece of evidence before it could be introduced.

State District Judge Barbara Walther called a recess 40 minutes after the hearing began in what could be the nation's largest child custody case. She wanted to allow the 350 lawyers spread out in two buildings to read the evidence and decide whether to object en masse or make individual objections.

The hearing resumed about an hour later.

The lawyers are representing the 416 children and dozens of parents from the Yearning For Zion ranch owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect accused of forcing underage girls into polygamous marriages.

CBS News correspondent Hari Sreenivasan reports that authorities presented into evidence interviews conducted with teenage girls on the ranch, medical records, and a document called a "bishop's record" found in a safe. It details 38 families with names of men, their wives and their children.

At least 10 women were married by the age of 16, some to men as old as 56. One man had 22 wives.

The 80-year-old Tom Green County courtroom and a satellite courtroom set up in a City Hall auditorium two blocks away were jammed with dozens of mothers from the retreat, dressed in their iconic pastel prairie dresses and braided upswept hair.

In the satellite courtroom, about 175 people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage, which offered a grainy live feed of the proceedings with barely audible sound.

"I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member.

The mothers in the primary courtroom were sworn in as witnesses, standing and mumbling their 'I do's' in timid voices. As they sat silently, the flock of lawyers buzzed with murmurs and popped up to make motions or object as Walther tried to maintain order.

But when prosecutors tried to enter into evidence the medical records of three girls - two 17-year-olds and an 18-year-old - the lawyers jumped to their feet and crammed the aisles trying to see the papers. That's when Walther called the recess.

Outside, where satellite trucks lined the street in front of the courthouse's columned facade, a man who said he was an FLDS father waved a photo of himself surrounded by his four children, ranging in age from an infant to about 9.

"Look, look, look," the father said. "These children are all smiling, we're happy."

Walther signed an emergency order nearly two weeks ago giving the state custody of the children after a 16-year-old girl called an abuse hot line claiming her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.

The girl has yet to be identified, but Sreenivasan reports that court documents revealed today that teenage girls interviewed at the ranch say they knew, and had seen the girl who may have made the phone call that started this all.

Authorities raided the Eldorado ranch and spent a week collecting documents and disk drives that might provide evidence of underage girls being married to adults.

The children, first taken to local shelters, were later moved to a historic fort and then to a domed coliseum on the fairgrounds in San Angelo. All but 27 adolescent boys are staying in the coliseum and a nearby building; the teenage boys are at a boys ranch near Amarillo.

If the judge gives the state permanent custody of the children, the child services agency will begin looking for foster homes in a case that has already stretched the legal resources of San Angelo and the state's child welfare system.

The custody case is one of the largest in U.S. history and involves children from 6 months to 17 years in age. Roughly 100 of the children are under age 4.

Responding to criticism that the raid on the compound has destroyed the lives of the families, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott told CBS' The Early Show the state's goal is to protect the children and remove them from any alleged "dangerous situation."

State officials contend the children were being physically and sexually abused or were in imminent danger of such abuse.

FLDS members say the state is persecuting them for their faith and that their 1,700-acre Yearning for Zion Ranch, with its soaring white temple and log cabin-style houses, is simply a home isolated from a hostile and sinful world.

They deny children were abused.

"It's the furthest thing away from what we do here," said Dan, a sect member who spoke at the compound Wednesday but declined to give his last name because he fears how it will affect his children in state custody. "There's nothing that's more disliked and more trained against."

Flora Jessop, a former wife in a polygamous sect who later escaped, defended the state's handling of the situation. "Texas did the right thing," Jessop told The Early Show. "They went in to help the child. Regardless of what happens, the system worked."

A major issue will be how a home is defined - whether by the individual house each child lived in or by the larger ranch, Susan Hays said. Under Texas law, if sexual abuse is occurring in a home and a parent does not stop it, then the parent can lose custodial rights.

The judge also must decide whether it's in the best interest of children who have lived insulated lives to be suddenly placed into mainstream society, Hays said.

Typically, each child would be given a separate hearing, but given the number of cases, it's likely the judge will have the state, the children's attorneys and the parents' attorneys make consolidated presentations, at least initially, said Harper Estes, president-elect of the state bar.

If the judge gives the state permanent custody, it will have an enormous challenge in finding homes for the children.

The agency has relied on volunteers to help feed the children, launder linens and provide crafts and games for them in a dorm-style setting for the past two weeks. But the agency will have to find stable homes and try to decipher sibling relationships that should be preserved if it gets permanent custody.

Even identifying groups of siblings has been challenging so far.

"There's quite a lot of difficulty in identifying how many of these children are biologically related to one another. There's a large number who are half-siblings," Gonzales said.

The children, who dress in pioneer-style clothes meant to emphasize modesty, have been raised in the insular FLDS community.

The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. It traces its religious roots to the early theology of the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now denounces polygamy and excommunicates members found practicing it.

[fibonacci_]

Those women in that video (the mothers) are idiotic. "Those children havent known abuse until now". How about indoctrination with a ridiculous religion where men treat women like their little pets? They are going to have to LIVE WITH IT. It is very much their fault too - they did this to their children.

[upstate9-2009]

So while they are in the courtroom using taxpayers'' money, why don''t they go ahead and take care of the Welfare Fraud issue? Why should we be paying for all those women and children? I have to work to survive and think about how many children I can realistically feed, clothe and send to school!

[mtdrmbland]

I couldn''t agree more !!! If they did NOTHING wrong...why isn''t anyone talking? Why isn''t anyone saying what really happened? If they wanted their CHIDLREN back sooo bad...Why aren''t they fighting tooth and nail to get them back instaed of hindering the state by not talking and telling the TRUTH !!!

[abrushing68]

416 Children.......? 416 Children!? 4 1 6 Children......!!? One aligation? HMMM.....?

Thats a pretty broad brush San Angelo is using. I am very concerned about religious freedom. And tend to believe the ladies from the compound. TX aught to be ashamed of itself. I agree that that something had to be done. However this is a kin to painting the whole house because a bedroom wall is scratched. To much all at once. Wrong move. San Angelo I am afraid your authorities made the wrong desicion to pull all those children all at once. Can Tx trample on religious freedom so easily.

[mtdrmbland]

14 year old CHILDREN being forced into a "spiritual ceremony" and then made to have s.e.x. in the next room in the temple is NOT freedom of religion !!! IT IS RAPE !!!!

[mtdrmbland]

CPS provided these women: "They were informed of the legal situation and provided packets of information on the process and what would happen while the children are in state care."

That does not sound like they were "lied" to and "misguided" in anyway. If they couldn''t read the packet that is their own stupidity and ignorance.

[fibonacci_]

MyOpinion1, exactly - exactly. Who cares if it was one allegation - the religious indoctrination of children is practically criminal in itself, and in such a wack-job sect clearly criminal. I would say they should even consider prosecuting the women that willingly participated.

[ccdsswrkr08]

I''m curious to know what these women''s definition of ''abuse'' is, versus the law''s definition (or common sense definition for that matter). I feel very sorry for that judge. This is going to be one of the hardest trials he''s ever had to hear.

[donevis-2009]

Prove it!!! Opinion1 means no room for thought only an opinion!!! Stop Believing every thing the Media tells you. You get an idea in your head, add in some vulgarity and vola you have an OPINION. Proof of allegations is whats necessary in this country. Go back to quilting and spreading rumors with your circle.

[fibonacci_]

You have to be pretty naive not to think that there was *** with underage girls going on there. That is what people of this sect do - they think it is normal. It has happened in many cases involving the FLDS. Even "normal" mormons - if one can use that word for such a wack-job and clearly fake religion - get married when they are 18 or 19 and have like 5 or 6 kids immediately.

[apndrgn]

Jeff''s big mistake was Texas. Who would do something different in Texas? Such a great expanse of boredom that these gems are kept in the icebox to provide public entertainment and keep people from the real issue which is that they are robbing americans at the gas pump.
No, he was up to bat after Jim Jones, and he should have gone to the Amazon jungle, or deep mexico where the Mennonites still practice learning only 16th century German and ploughing with horses.
Texas? Gimme a break. There is only a herd of long horn looking for some young meat to gore.

[zerato-2009]

CPS was correct in taking the children out of the compound with the allegations of institutional statutory rape and child abuse. The women do not think any thing that has happened to their kids is abuse, because that is the way it has always has been. They will sort out the matter and start sending some of the children back at the end of this hearing.

[rillifane]

The supposed 16 year old whose call supplied the basis for probable cause still hasn''t been produced. It is therefore still possible and even probable that the entire thing was a fabrication by the local cops.

This is the state where bags of plaster were exhibited by the police as "proof" they had seized large quantities of cocaine from a ring of drug pushers. The fact that the alleged criminals were Hispanic was taken as further proof of their guilt. Dozens of people were tried, convicted and sent to prison before anyone managed to get to the truth.

Law enforcement in Texas is a travesty of justice with corrupt police, elected judges who pander to local bigotry and prosecutors who could care less about anything but winning the next election.

Rasing the spectre of child rape brings forth the prectable half witted cries of moral outrage and demands for "justice" that ignores annoying things like due process of law.

Walk down the street in any city and you''ll see underage girls who are pregnant or have children. Yet no one seems to take this as proof positive that criminal axcts have been committed warranting the issuance of search warrants, the arrest and detention of the girls themselves and stripping their parents of the right to speak to them.

[honestabe8]

fibonacci: aren''t all religions fake? nice nick, but the way...the algebra guy?

[fibonacci_]

Bingo on both questions honestabe8. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to even suggest the possibility that any known religion could be true.

[culturechang]

Hardly a judgement day. No charges have even been filed yet. No arrests. And I heard on ABC that they cannot find the girl who made the phone call that led to the warrant. Her testimony is the key. Its questionable if they even have a case now. It would not surprise me if this turns out to be another falsely-grounded government lead pre-imptive strike.

[fibonacci_]

I do agree that religious people are often good people. They are just so indoctrinated and often not very intelligent, that they just dont know any better. Some just have no way of thinking outside the microbox of their religion.

[beehive21-2009]

Texas is stomping on the Constitution today, for the whole world to witness how the Democracy in the USA ,is a big lie in Texas.The Bill of Rights ,not in Texas ?

We The People of the United States in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice,insure domestic Tranquility,provide for the common defense,promote the general Welfare,and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity do ordain and and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

What happened in Texas ? Our forefathers gave their life for this and Texas is stomping all over your rights ?

[fibonacci_]

Nancy_Naive, I very much agree with your statement below.

[zerato-2009]

Whether or not they find the 16 year old is irrelevant now. What matters now is all the interviews that the CPS has conducted. I am sure that many have given information that confirms the allegations. If they didn''t, CPS would have released the children back to their "family".

I was wondering at some of the comments about abusing religous freedom. How can you say the right to water board babies, statutory rape, and abandonment of children(young boys) be a religous freedom?

[ccdsswrkr08]

beehive21

From your own quote of the constitution
''provide for the common defense,promote the general Welfare''

that''s what they are doing in texas. They are providing the defense and general welfare of children who''s parents will not, or cannot do it for them. There are NO constitutional rights being trampled in this instance.

[ccdsswrkr08]

I swear the United States Constitution gets just as missinterpreted as the Bible.

[lorinkundert]

They had no right going in and taking anyone, the girl who supposedly called in doesn''t even seem to exist at all. Sounds more like a setup every minute.

[fibonacci_]

It is a fundamental problem of books like the Bible and the US Constitution (as well as many legal documents) are subject to interpretation. Who is to say who is correct, really? These documents were not written by expert 21st century contract lawyers in modern language.

[mcvet]

What happened in Texas ? Our forefathers gave their life for this and Texas is stomping all over your rights ?


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Posted by beehive21 at 10:58 AM : Apr 17, 2008

Uh Huh! I''d suppose the next thing you''ll tell us is that the parents of these 14 to 15 year old kids who were being raped by 50 year old men shouldn''t have any charges brought against them at all won''t you? THERE is CLEAR evidence that WRONGS were done here.. massive WRONGS. Maybe, maybe not but that will all come out in a court of law. Right now there is CERTAINLY evidence from the POPE himself of all people that abuse DOES take place in the religious areas. Sieg Heil and Amen

[mcvet]

They had no right going in and taking anyone, the girl who supposedly called in doesn''''t even seem to exist at all. Sounds more like a setup every minute.


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Posted by lorinkundert at 11:44 AM : Apr 17, 2008
+ report abuse

You CAN''T be that stupid! PLEASE tell me you aren''t THAT supid. They HAVE the tape of the CALL you increditable idiot!! What would YOU suggest the police do? Wait to Confirm that the call is real??? They FOUND girls with CHILD you MORON!! God were does this slime come from... it''s like the "bible" as THEY understand it is more important than human beings. Sieg Heil and Amen

[mcvet]

"There''s quite a lot of difficulty in identifying how many of these children are biologically related to one another. There''s a large number who are half-siblings," Gonzales said.

You have to wonder how many "Wives" these dirty old men had each!!! They were in effect breeding them.

[haynes321]

the child who reported the abuse has not been found, not that she does not exist, but she has not been found. There are 16 year old girls who walked out of that compound with 3-4 children already! If that is not abuse, I don''t know what is!

[Razzl]

It''s pretty hard to fathom how the press can go along with demonizing people who look at naughty pictures on the internet and shame governments into branding them with the "*** offender" scarlet letter for the rest of their lives, but then ***-foot around this sect as though there were a genuine religious freedom issue. It''s patently obvious child rape was taking place, that mormon "polygamy" is just a 19th-century style of conducting pedophilia, and that the legal authorities and the press should not be coddling these people. The only case that needs parsing is which mothers were themselves victims and whether the cult control mechanisms grant them some measure of absolution. Shame on the press for falling for the cult viewpoint on this just because there''s a right-wing pop culture in the Southwest that tolerates it...

[prinzowhales]

Family and Children''s Services is just licking its chops to get more children to molest or place in foster homes where they will be endangered at rates far higher than if they remained with their parents.
In foster homes they will be drugged and more than likely ruined.

[kodiak8881]

I think there is a very good chance nothing will come of this whole case - because of lots of the points made herein. No girl leads to questionable warrants which leads to why ALL children taken which leads to the consitution. I think the children will go home and life will resume at the "ranch" just as before. AND that is a shame, because these children will grow up to be their elders and will still have been abused.

[wlmrtpatriot]

Is it true that the Jessop wife who wrote her book and appeared on television now has a site on MySpace and is selling tee shirts and ringtones? Someone told me that, but I can''t find the site. I wanted to comment on her message board.

[donevis-2009]

OK, beehive21. We''''ll turn you over to this cult, let a few of the guys have their way with you, take you daughters and do the same with them and teach you sons to oppress women as well. Whose rights are in danger now?

Itn''''t it a bit early to be that drunk?

Posted by jmcgilvray

Apples and oranges. No comparison!! Let the courts work this one out. Evidence and proof is what the situation needs. Not people that have drawn conclusions from Media slanted reporting. Arrest the people that investigations show evidents of breaking the laws. To assume that 3 children with a 16 year old girl are her''s is just that, AN ASSUMTION. Remember this is the same Media that reported weapons of mass destruction because the Government said so.

[kodiak8881]

This has nothing to do with religious freedom or this particular religion (if you want to call it that). It has to do with breaking the law. Period. But, that said, the law can be fickle and even if girls under 15 do have children, the process taken by Texas authorities may not have been legal and the Law may say the children must go back. That''s sad but it''s our American way.

[ccdsswrkr08]

Family and Children''''s Services is just licking its chops to get more children to molest or place in foster homes where they will be endangered at rates far higher than if they remained with their parents.
In foster homes they will be drugged and more than likely ruined.

Posted by Prinzowhales at 12:39 PM : Apr 17, 2008


You really can''t possibly think that CPS WANTS to seporate families. That''s not what CPS does. It''s CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES, not Family Distructive Services. Have you ever been in a foster home? And if you have in what state and county? If I lived in a family that allowed me to be raped and physically abused, I''d take prison over that hell. Just like we can''t make blanket statements about all religious organizations, we cannot make blanket statements about CPS and foster homes. Yes, in the past and in the present there may have been and are some inappropriate foster homes, but there are far less than in ealier years, and the screening process to become a foster parent has become almost as intense as becoming a secret services agent. Like the saying goes (and it applies to both areas) One bad apple ruining the bunch.

[michellem99-2009]

That is what they do..I was a foster child and yes they will break them up. Yes they will be abused in them homes..I lived the life of foster child..I pity them children I really do..

[dlhrn74]

I say Amen to McVet, thank you for pointing out beehives complete ingnorance. The constitution does not only defend the rights of our fellow americans but obligates us to follow the laws of this nation that we elect officials to make. In essence, we, American citizens, make the laws. We established long ago that polygamy would be illegal. We also decided it was illegal to engage in sexual activity with a minor. No religion should be protected from breaking the law, plain and simple. Any child under the age of 16 that walked out of that compound pregnant was a clear violation of the law Yes, I believe that law is reffered to as Statutory Rape. It IS illegal all over this fine country, married or not.Religious freedom is a foundation of which this country has always been proud to offer, yet we have always maintained laws provising against certain offenses that majority of this country feel to be foul, insane, immoral, illegal or just plain stupid. We have done this to prevent any "average joe" from claiming their illegal activity was under the protection of religious freedom. Come on we are not a stupid nation, we know people will try to find a loop hole to get out of trouble and do what they want, that is why we have a judicial system in the first place.

[cpaide]

"Any child under the age of 16 that walked out of that compound pregnant was a clear violation of the law Yes, I believe that law is reffered to as Statutory Rape. It IS illegal all over this fine country, married or not. Come on we are not a stupid nation,"
Posted by dlhrn74

you make a noble speech, my friend but you are stupid in plain sight.

you stupid americans have your nasty little childrens getting pregnant by the hundreds and thousands all over this country, and you make speech about how smart and moral and just you are. ha, you are stupid like the crazy lesbians social worker and judge.

maybe we arrest all the under-16 in this country who are pregnant and their parents and put them in the rodeo arena like animals as you have done to this plain simple mormans who did nothing wrong and you have no good evidence of any of this.

[cpaide]

Obviously you''''ve never heard of agreement in grammar. You''''re so inept that you don''''t even realize the point this person was making. Too bad you didn''''t drown on your way over here.

Posted by sincebyjake

my sincere congratulations, my friend, on your pretty and petty words. maybe you have not heard of agreement in THOUGHT and REASON and that more important than grammar, is it not?

and the point is, my stupid stupid friend, that you have no good and honest proof of any accusation made to this mormans. that is the point. you make this all up as you are in denial knowing that the government can come to your gated community, cut off your doors, take your childrens put you in the rodeo arena, and you can do NOTHING.

so you point the finger at this good humble mormans hoping that the government will leave you alone, but they will not, my friend. and that is the point.

[element51]

Some of you are claiming that there is no proof that there was anything going on at the compound that was wrong. When any organization feels compelled to hide behind a veil of secrecy it raises the question of "what do they have to hide?" If you have a 17 year old girl who has a 4 year old and a 3 year, old simply do the math. If there are women who are of legal age and they choose to live with "sister wives" I could care less. But when it is a situation where the "girl" has no choice it becomes a different case. There are ways to determine who the fathers of these children are and the court should demand that the proper test be run. Once it is determined that these old men are responsible then the law should take it''s course. The simple fact is that it is against the LAW for adult men to rape children. Look what they do to those idiots on that NBC show, "To Catch a Predator." This is even worse since the men are protected by their so called "religion."

[misssuzq]

While I understand that some of these women and girls know of no other way of life, a lot of them do, and they knowingly allowed others to be subjected to *** long before they were emotionally ready for it.

Sadly, being so sheltered, many of the girls and women did not know they were being forced into polygamous marriages.

I feel the women just as dangerous as the men for sitting back, with fear or approval, and I would like to see this handled the best way for the children and the other women that want out of this strange existence.

[sincebyjake]

Posted by sincebyjake

my sincere congratulations, my friend, on your pretty and petty words. maybe you have not heard of agreement in THOUGHT and REASON and that more important than grammar, is it not?

and the point is, my stupid stupid friend, that you have no good and honest proof of any accusation made to this mormans. that is the point. you make this all up as you are in denial knowing that the government can come to your gated community, cut off your doors, take your childrens put you in the rodeo arena, and you can do NOTHING.

so you point the finger at this good humble mormans hoping that the government will leave you alone, but they will not, my friend. and that is the point.


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Posted by cpaide at 01:36 PM : Apr 17, 2008

You don''t understand because you''re ignorant and your views are skewed. You''re not worth my words. Do us all a favor and hang yourself. Peace.

[element51]

cpaide....My friend, you just don''t seem to grasp the situation. Tell my why would the government want to sieze these children? If everything was normal in the compound what logical reason would there be to go in and remove the children? It doesn''t make any sense does it? There are not "humble mormons" involved here. Normal mormons are pretty decent people and do not condone this type of thing. I personally think that their religion is a little odd but I defend their right to practice it as long as it is legal. This fringe group is acting outside the law. I think you mean well by your comments but I don''t think you truly understand what was going on there.

[ccdsswrkr08]

That is what they do..I was a foster child and yes they will break them up. Yes they will be abused in them homes..I lived the life of foster child..I pity them children I really do..

Posted by MichelleM99 at 01:11 PM : Apr 17, 2008

I''m very sorry you had a horrible experience as a foster child. No one should have a horrible child hood and that includes foster care children. I don''t know where you live, or lived as a foster child, but I do know that in my state, the process to become a foster parent number one weeds out abusive people, and number two, each foster family gets visited once a week by a foster care worker to make sure nothing bad goes on.
Child Protective services may break up families, but the families they break up are generally abusive, severely disfunctional families where the children are better off growing up outside of them. It''s not like they get a bonus every time they remove a child from a home. Each child removed is 10 times more work for CPS, and 10 times more money out of the tax payers dollers.

cpaide, no response. You obvously didn''t read my entire post, and none of your posts have had any sense of intelligence. It sounds to me you just want to aggrivate people.

Please don''t respond to the nutcase "cpaide". All his sick mind wants is attention.

[ccdsswrkr08]

Good Call andersonk49

[godofredo29]

She probably lives in Ohio where the dysfunctional or/and abusive foster parent is the rule rather than the exception.

[element51]

Michelle99M....I have read many posts from you in the past and I truly believe you are a sweet caring person. It breaks my heart that you have had to endure the things you have spoken of. It is no wonder that you have a dis-trust of the foster care system. In the past it was poor at best. Today though, things are much better. There are safe-guards in place to make sure that the children are well cared for and no abuse is taking place. Unfortunately, the human condition is such that bad things do happen sometimes. It is our responsibility as citizens to do all we can to protect our children and I believe that is what the folks in Texas are trying to do.

[salty1954]

It was all a horrible mistake - it was just the Osmond family getting together with the Romney family!

[sassalin]

cpaide,

If you don''t like America you can leave!! I will be more than happy to pay for your one-way plane ticket. Better yet, you can go live on the ranch. Maybe they can find a place for you because we don''t want you.

YOU and people like you cause America to be in the shape it is. You steal my tax dollars and can''t even learn to speak or write the language correctly.

"you are angry and stupid to this humble good mormans and YOU my stupid american friend have a BIGGER problem". Posted by cpaide.

It''s "these humble good mormans". Have you ever heard of the plural form, idiot.

Learn the language!