U.S. Wins Over NATO On Missile Defense

Endorsement A Victory For Bush; Russia Remains Opposed To Weapons System

(CBS/AP)  President Bush won NATO's endorsement Thursday for his plan to build a missile defense system in Europe over Russian objections. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called it a "breakthrough agreement" for the military alliance.

"Now it is clearly understood in the alliance that the challenges of the 21st century, the threats of the 21st century, make it necessary to have missile defense that can defend the countries of Europe," Rice told reporters at the NATO summit.

Progress on missile defense represented perhaps the biggest boon to Mr. Bush from the NATO summit. Russia has fiercely opposed it.

Rice also noted that NATO has "also asked Russia to stop its criticism of the alliance effort and to join in the cooperative efforts that have been offered to it by the United States."

A NATO statement calls on the alliance to explore ways in which the planned U.S. project, to be based in Poland and the Czech Republic, can be linked with future missile shields elsewhere. It says leaders should come up with recommendations to be considered at their next meeting in 2009.

The U.S. plan calls for 10 interceptor missiles based in Poland and a tracking radar site in the Czech Republic.

At a news conference in Bucharest on the sidelines of the NATO summit, Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg announced that negotiations with the Americans have been successfully completed and that a deal would be signed in early May.

The Poles have yet to agree to the plan, but in Warsaw on Thursday, talks picked up between Polish and U.S. officials about it.

The backing from NATO and the announcement with the Czechs provides Mr. Bush with a powerful leg up in his negotiations with Moscow over the issue.

Mr. Bush is seeing Russian President Vladimir Putin twice this week - during the summit and Sunday in Sochi, Russia. White House officials have talked optimistically in recent days that the weekend meeting could break the missile defense logjam.

"I think we can probably look for a deal" by the time Mr. Bush and his counterpart President Vladimir Putin hold their bilateral meeting this weekend, reports b>CBS News senior White House correspondent Bill Plante.

Rice said she was hopeful that Mr. Bush and Putin would agree on a broad framework for cooperation between the countries, but it was still unclear whether they would reach a deal on missile defense. The administration has worked to allay Russian leaders' fears that the system is a threat to them.

"We hope that we can move beyond that to an understanding that we will all have an interest in cooperation on missile defense," Rice said. "But we will see."

On Afghanistan, Mr. Bush did win a commitment of more troops to Afghanistan's most dangerous areas, although his national security adviser acknowledged more needs to be done.

"We are not at the level of what at this point in time our commanders looking forward say we need and that's why we said more to do," Stephen Hadley said at the briefing with Rice.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said France will send as many as 1,000 troops to the eastern part of the country, freeing up some U.S. forces to move to the south. Canada had threatened to pull its soldiers out of the volatile south, the front line in the fight against a resurgent Taliban and al Qaeda forces, unless it received 1,000 reinforcements from another ally.

On NATO expansion, Mr. Bush did suffer a setback in his drive to have the alliance include Ukraine and Georgia, two former Soviet republics.

"NATO's door must remain open to other nations in Europe that share our love for liberty and demonstrate a commitment to reform and seek to strengthen their ties with the trans-Atlantic community," Mr. Bush said in brief remarks at an alliance meeting. "We must give other nations seeking membership a full and fair hearing."

Fellow NATO leaders, fearing a clash with Moscow, rejected Mr. Bush's appeal to allow the countries to get on a path toward membership. But Hadley said the president plans to make a new pitch before he leaves office in January. The United States expects to raise the matter at a meeting of NATO foreign minister in December, Hadley said.

The president expressed regret that NATO also declined to offer full membership at this meeting to Macedonia. The invitation was blocked by Greece, which says the country's name implies a territorial claim to a northern region of Greece, also called Macedonia.

"Macedonia's made difficult reforms at home," Mr. Bush said. "It is making major contributions to NATO missions abroad. The name issue needs to be resolved quickly so that Macedonia can be welcomed into NATO as soon as possible."

Albania and Croatia were invited to join the alliance, now currently at 26 members.

Progress on missile defense represented perhaps the biggest boon to Bush from the summit. NATO leaders were adopting a statement that "ballistic missile proliferation poses an increasing threat to allied forces, territory and populations" and that the U.S.-led system would help protect allies.

The statement calls on all NATO members to explore ways in which the planned U.S. project can be linked with future missile shields elsewhere The plan calls for 10 interceptor missiles based in Poland and a tracking radar site in the Czech Republic.

Russia charges the intent of the system would be to weaken its nuclear deterrent capabilities and upset the balance of power in Europe. Mr. Bush has denied that, saying the facilities are designed to protect Europe against a potential missile attack - or even just nuclear blackmail - by Iran. The dispute has become heated at times, with confrontational, Cold War-style rhetoric from Moscow.

Mr. Bush essentially has rejected Russia's suggestion that the U.S. substitute an early warning radar in Azerbaijan for the Europe-based system. But U.S. officials have been working to come up with a list of concessions and assurances that could resolve Moscow's fears, such as offering to let Russia share in the information the system collects and promising not to activate it without a verifiable threat.

[borris007-2009]

Bush Scores Two Goals At NATO Summit,, what a bunch of bu*l. The Canadians we''re threatening to pull out if they didn''t get an additional support in Afganistan from NATO... How can Bush get the credit for this goal?,,, CBS, looks as though you''re trying in vain to make this failed president look good.

[borris007-2009]

France''s in order to send troops duped the US into helping out the Canadians in the most dangerous areas of Afganistan. Hope the trigger happy Americans don''t kill any Canadians again with "friendly fire".

[borris007-2009]

Wouldn''t it be grand if the Russians put some sort of missile defense system in Cuba? I guess the Russians could give the same lame excuse that its sole purpose would be to protect Russia and its allies from extreme right wing nuts living in the bible-belt. I''m sure that would even out things. How would the hypocrites in Washington feel then.

[borris007-2009]

Viewed some coverage of Bush in Europe, no serious politician in Europe is taking bush seriously anymore, the man is a clown.

Most world leaders avoid bush %u201Cthe political plague%u2019 they want no real association with this failed president. Those that even think of cozying up to this embarrassment are simply gunning for self political suicide at home.

[georgew1956]

putin is doing a lot of smiling at the photo shoot and cbs is saying he is vahemeatly upset with bush if so why are they so happy together?

[gkc99]

"The Bush administration insists the defense plans are aimed strictly at protecting America and its allies from potential threats from "rogue nations" - primarily North Korea or Iran. "

Oh yeah, that''s why they will be placed in Poland and Czech land!

Bushit has the same view of the American public he''s held all along--

Americans are not too bright, very gullible, and easily manipulated.

[ajaxtheleast]

DEMS DONT LIE! REPUBS LIE!

DEMS STAND UP OR SIT DOWN!

REPUBS LIE IN STACKED PAIRS!

PROBABLY TO CONSERVATIVELY SAVE

OUR DWINDLING WORLDLY SPACE.

"HI, FELLA, GOT A LIGHT?"

[perceptions5]

It''s amazing to read the comments from so many contaminated liberals.

It appears that liberals actually root for:

US failure in Iraq

A poor US economy

Mass confusion, fear, and despair

Ronald Reagan was right..........The Dems and their close pals in our corrupt liberal MSM wolfpack press are simply a "doom and gloom" bunch.

Which is really sad indeed.........but true. (just read the comments for the contaminated ones)

[leftyintexas]

Gee, France pledges one battalion of troops to Afghanistan. Doofus really ''scored'' big at ''The Summit''. It just goes to show you how much ''pull'' the ''Decider'' really has. You''re doing a fine job Doofus. Keep up the good work. Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!

[leftyintexas]

It''''s amazing to read the comments from so many contaminated liberals.

It appears that liberals actually root for:

US failure in Iraq

A poor US economy

Mass confusion, fear, and despair

Ronald Reagan was right..........The Dems and their close pals in our corrupt liberal MSM wolfpack press are simply a "doom and gloom" bunch.

Which is really sad indeed.........but true. (just read the comments for the contaminated ones)

Posted by perceptions5 at 08:50 AM : Apr 03, 2008

We are sorry if reporting the failures of your leader Doofus upsets you. We all know how sensitive his followers are to any criticism of his many failures so we will try not to offend you people in the future....YEAH RIGHT! Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! Only 292 days left! Yea!!!!!!

[notblue]

leftyintexas,even when the news is good you seem to find a way to critisize. Since you seem to be the self annointed smartest person on these boards to you have anything to offer other than your daily cririsism? Any solution at all other than retreat and everything will be ok.

[joyous88]

Impeach bush,

if the democrats had enough votes and therefore control of the congress,

1) we would not be in Iraq,

2) Bush would be in prison,

and the greed driven republiCON agenda would be shown
to all the world for the immoral anti-american goals
set in it''s war against humanity

evangelical filth

[joyous88]

Right wing tool,

who pays you to sit here, Rupert Murdoch?

or do you get paid directly by the Bush Crime Family?

Republicons are Un-American greed driven pigs

[notblue]

joyous88, the democrats have the majority and enough votes to START the impeachment proceedings, why don''t they to at least make a statement?

[vmcneal2]

Forget George "Doom" Bush and Prick "Gloom" Cheney. These two trashed our country so bad it will take years and years to get back on track. A Republican White House had seven years and they fu*ked up. America will not put another Republican in the White House this time around.

[joyous88]

bush is a criminal he started this war for purely political purposes,

he is creating terrorists all over the planet,
he is an evil monster

he matchs his repuibliCON party quite well in that their goal is to destroy America and rebuild her
into a greed driven money machine for the wealthy

billion to bail out the wall street wealthy,

and not one penny for disabled veterans

immoral criminals = republiCONs

[dinkydog1]

It''''''''s amazing to read the comments from so many contaminated liberals.

It appears that liberals actually root for:

US failure in Iraq

A poor US economy

Mass confusion, fear, and despair



No "liberals" do not root for these things, there exactly what we have thanks to the Bushies. Liberals "root for" an end to Bush''s usless war an end to Bush''s out of controll spending and economic policies that gave us a poor economy and an end to fear mongering that frightens poor neocons to believe any thing he says. Try to stop posting what you think others believe and think, instead post why you support idiots like Bush.

[notblue]

dinkeydog, your kind who want to put an end to a "useless war" have what plan to do so? DON''T YOU REALIZE THAT JUST "ENDING IT" WILL RESULT IN VICTIORY FOR THE MILITANTS? How do you think a Dem if elected will end it. If we just walk away as you think, have you given any thought to the ramifications? What will the militants think? Wil they consider that a victory? Will it embolden them? Will it increase their will to destroy us? Every day we hear the same crapp with no forsite or solutions just critisism.

[ioweign]

DON''''T YOU REALIZE THAT JUST "ENDING IT" WILL RESULT IN VICTIORY FOR THE MILITANTS? How do you think a Dem if elected will end it. If we just walk away as you think, have you given any thought to the ramifications? What will the militants think? Wil they consider that a victory? Will it embolden them? Will it increase their will to destroy us? Every day we hear the same crapp with no forsite or solutions just critisism.

Posted by notblue at 10:11 AM : Apr 03, 2008

Didn''t we have Mission Accomplished...
Didn''t they have an election...
It is THEIR country and 70 percent say it is time for the US to leave...

[notblue]

IOWEGIAN, if America uses your plan what do you think the results would be, enlighten us all please.

[ici2i]

What will the militants think? Wil they consider that a victory? Will it embolden them? Will it increase their will to destroy us? Every day we hear the same crapp with no forsite or solutions just critisism.
Posted by notblue

What will the militants think? who gives a rat''s a@s! Iraq was a UN issue not ours alone dumb a@s...Sadam was an imbicile who your former repubs cozied up to and sold arms to. Retreat with dignity leaving advisors to lavish themselves in luxury in our new billion dollar mansion (aka embassy)and re-deploy to Afganistan where the jihadist are really holed up and have been from the start!
Will it increase their will to destroy us? You''re a weee bit gulible to believe that the Iraqi''s want to destroy us... they only wanted Kuwait''s resources and harbors and this was resolved.

What other stories are you believing from your dangerously insane leader? BTW, do you know whether or not your blue buddies are monitoring your e-mail w/o a warrant?

[ici2i]

correction: "red" buddies - he''s NOTblue....

[notblue]

iCi2i, thanks for the twisted history tale, you still didn''t answer a signal question other than you don''t give a *** what the militants would do. That''s the problem genious, you don''t give a *** about anything other than hating Bush and fellow Americans who are in dssagreement with you and your complete lack of any plan or forsite.

[notblue]

iCi2i, have you readthe fact thaty Osama and company feel Iraq is the war front? Why do you ignore what the enemy we fight states? Is it important for your perspective to leave the bad guys now in Iraq out of the equation? Would it be impossible to justify your stance if you admitted we are fighting more than just Iraqis their?

[ioweign]

IOWEGIAN, if America uses your plan what do you think the results would be, enlighten us all please.

Posted by notblue at 10:22 AM : Apr 03, 2008

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the Bush invasion.

I know it is a novel idea but let them decide what they want to do. After all, wasn''t democracy one of Bush''s talking points about Iraq.

[leftyintexas]

accepted...thanks lefty

Posted by jamesm12341 at 09:12 AM : Apr 03, 2008

I see the cowardly bushie troll is with us again. No, thank you for showing up. I was worried you went into hiding. Stay with us for another wonderful day of DOOFUS bashing. We love it when you bushie dead-enders respond to our posts. We are always optimistic that you will some day have something intelligent to say. Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! Only 292 days left! Enjoy!

[notblue]

Iowegian, I suppose in your simple mind that is a plan. I bet your vision will be a great one for the middle east and greater world.

[leftyintexas]

Thats right, 292 days until John McCain. By the way lib, Bush is not running for President.

Posted by hillaryin012 at 09:09 AM : Apr 03, 2008

Really?? Sounds like Doofus.

[ioweign]

Iowegian, I suppose in your simple mind that is a plan. I bet your vision will be a great one for the middle east and greater world.

Posted by notblue at 10:58 AM : Apr 03, 2008

I am not trying to rule the world. Why did Bush go into Iraq again ??

[leftyintexas]

retreat and everything will be ok.

Posted by notblue at 09:07 AM : Apr 03, 2008

Excellent idea! Why didn''t I think of that! Thanks!

[jackie0428]

IOWEIGN, I note each time someone asks you to consider what will happen in Iraq if we pull out you dodge the question. Your answers dwell on past mistakes and actions, rather than on WHERE WE ARE TODAY. You say thing such as "There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the Bush invasion." and "Didn%u2019t we have Mission Accomplished..." and such. OK. Well and good, but your dwelling on things from 3 or 4 years ago does NOT solve a problem today. It would be as if your wife was fighting with you over new financial problems this month, and you decided to bring up when she scratched your car 5 years ago. This kind of logic may make you feel smart and good now, but it solves nothing. We all must deal with the reality of where we are in Iraq today, and stop fighting old arguments. The hard truths are: the Iraq government has asked the US to stay until they are stable and can fight alone. If we leave too soon, they WILL be overrun by Islamist terrorists and the country will be destroyed. And then my kids, and perhaps yours, when older, will be forced to go back in and re-fight the war all over again. The time to "win" is now, not 15 years from now. Think about how to solve the problem from where we are now, not back in 2003.

[relee42]

Let''s look at who is making all the money here. In Wikipedia, find Marvin P. Bush. He is HW''s son who bought 52k Kuwaiti American Corp shares for 52 cents each, after daddy invaded Iraq.

[ioweign]

IOWEIGN, I note each time someone asks you to consider what will happen in Iraq if we pull out you dodge the question. OK. Well and good, but your dwelling on things from 3 or 4 years ago does NOT solve a problem today. It would be as if your wife was fighting with you over new financial problems this month, and you decided to bring up when she scratched your car 5 years ago. This kind of logic may make you feel smart and good now, but it solves nothing. We all must deal with the reality of where we are in Iraq today, and stop fighting old arguments. The hard truths are: the Iraq government has asked the US to stay until they are stable and can fight alone. If we leave too soon, they WILL be overrun by Islamist terrorists and the country will be destroyed. And then my kids, and perhaps yours, when older, will be forced to go back in and re-fight the war all over again. The time to "win" is now, not 15 years from now. Think about how to solve the problem from where we are now, not back in 2003.

Posted by jackie0428 at 11:06 AM : Apr 03, 2008

There is no "win" for us. It is not our country - never was our country - remember. We invaded a sovereign nation based on lies and fraud. What do we "win" - oil, a good feeling about taking out a dictator. They have had their election and it is their civil war. What was the target of the War on Terror again...

[notblue]

IOWEGIAN, "ther is no win for us" your lack of vision is staggering! There is no debating that type of defeatest thinking, thankfully there are vollunteers fighting for even losers like you!

[ioweign]

IOWEGIAN, "ther is no win for us" your lack of vision is staggering! There is no debating that type of defeatest thinking, thankfully there are vollunteers fighting for even losers like you!

Posted by notblue at 11:37 AM : Apr 03, 2008

What did the Iraqis do to you?

[jackie0428]

IOWEIGN ,I should have known that my big words and logic would have overwhelmed you. You are still not able to answer basic questions. You continue to dwell in the past, with tired cliches such as "What was the target of the War on Terror again... ", which have nothing to do with Iraq or how to win or leave succesfully. I%u2019m not sure what is wrong with the brain of a liberal, and why they can%u2019t seem to answer a straight question or think logically. It%u2019s this type of unstable mental wiring that explains why America has elected only one liberal President(Carter) in our lifetimes. Yes, we%u2019ve elected some Democrats, but no true pacifist, isolationist, liberals. Even the Democrats we%u2019ve had have usually had the sense to know to use military force to advance our interests. As they say, what do liberals do when you ask them a question? Answer: They change the subject. Consider this subject closed, as you%u2019re evidently so retar*ded and locked into a bitter, old, tired, defeated mindset that you%u2019re incapable of a debate that requires more than 15 brain cells.

[bogusbones]

what a statesman! what a leader! what a visionary? now he wants the world to get involved in afghanistan. the french will pull out in two weeks if they see a problem. remember viet nam? it was the french that got us involved in the first place. instead of reading books like "I like shiny things" or "Horton" he should read a history book.

[ioweign]

IOWEIGN ,I should have known that my big words and logic would have overwhelmed you. You are still not able to answer basic questions. You continue to dwell in the past, with tired cliches such as "What was the target of the War on Terror again... ", which have nothing to do with Iraq or how to win or leave succesfully. I%u2019m not sure what is wrong with the brain of a liberal, and why they can%u2019t seem to answer a straight question or think logically. It%u2019s this type of unstable mental wiring that explains why America has elected only one liberal President(Carter) in our lifetimes. Yes, we%u2019ve elected some Democrats, but no true pacifist, isolationist, liberals. Even the Democrats we%u2019ve had have usually had the sense to know to use military force to advance our interests. As they say, what do liberals do when you ask them a question? Answer: They change the subject. Consider this subject closed, as you%u2019re evidently so retar*ded and locked into a bitter, old, tired, defeated mindset that you%u2019re incapable of a debate that requires more than 15 brain cells.

Posted by jackie0428 at 11:38 AM : Apr 03, 2008

Do you want to hold their hand for another 100 years ?
It is their country. Aren''t we to stand down when they stand up? You complain about the "welfare state" in our country but can not even see the huge "welfare state" of Iraq. They will never resolve their problems with us there because we are one of them...

[notblue]

IOWEGIAN the 12 million Iraqis that voted for freedom are fightingthe same enemy the U.S. is RADICAL ISALMIC EXTREMISM! ARE you really to stupid to understand who we are ALL fighting? Who causes ALL the unrest in the world today? Who target and kill innocent civilians every day? Wake up fool and be a part of the solution for those who want freedom not for those who want to destroy it!

[ajaxtheleast]

And where will Virgil Reality be today

glading handing, happy-faceing for the news

shot that he paid a million bucks for and

reporting to us from bragging of the "goals"

that he achieved?

Is the man not is desperate mode to show

us his fuzzy brain ahh, side?

[demslie]

IOWEGIAN, "ther is no win for us" your lack of vision is staggering! There is no debating that type of defeatest thinking, thankfully there are vollunteers fighting for even losers like you!

Posted by notblue

I agree 100%. Hey, I found something that is guaranteed to make Democrats Throw Up their sushi and tartar. Its John Wayne talking about teaching kids American Patriotism. I bet not a Democrat Alive would have the guts to even view it. Democrats have outlawed that kind of thinking. In case you Americans out there want to see it, go to http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c2_1206202129.

[tonyd_31]

I am simply amazed! jackie0428, what in the world is wrong with you "rightwing fanatics"? You actually think "W" is a visionary? Hmmm, for you and people like you who think so, I have a bridge in NY called the "Brooklyn Bridge" I would like to sell you. He and his presidency has been a total failure! The worst one in history. If he told me the sky was blue and the earth is round, I would not believe it. To think I actually voted for him in 2000 but came to my senses in 2004. We all can make one mistake. Stop hating the liberals and being blind, look around at reality. I am a Republican but I look forward to the day when he walks out of the Whitehouse for the last time. IOWEIGN, you are a fine American!

[ioweign]

IOWEGIAN the 12 million Iraqis that voted for freedom are fightingthe same enemy the U.S. is RADICAL ISALMIC EXTREMISM! ARE you really to stupid to understand who we are ALL fighting? Who causes ALL the unrest in the world today? Who target and kill innocent civilians every day? Wake up fool and be a part of the solution for those who want freedom not for those who want to destroy it!

Posted by notblue at 11:59 AM : Apr 03, 2008

It is called a civil war.

70 percent of the Iraqis want us out of Iraq and 70 percent of the US wants us out of Iraq. That is democracy speaking out...

[tonyd_31]

michaelt302, sir, are you mentally challenged? If you are, I see by reading some of these other comments from the "Bushie" faithful, you ARE NOT ALONE. No wonder so much *** is going on in these United States.

[ioweign]

We''''ve held the Germans and the Japenese Hands for 60 years.....South Korea for 50 years. Oh wait a minute, a lib president set that up.

Posted by hillaryin012 at 12:10 PM : Apr 03, 2008

You left out GITMO and a few others too. They are called military bases. Aren''t they thinking about closing the naval base in Japan?

When was the last time we had to call in air strikes for our base in Athens or Rota...

[ioweign]

Truth is, it wouldn''''t matter if 99.99% of Americans wanted us out, it still would make no sense to leave until Iraq was stable and able to fight on their own. Some day they will be, but that day is not here yet.

Posted by michaelt302 at 12:17 PM : Apr 03, 2008

Democracy never has mattered to you...

[taylor2124]

Yep, all the Bush-hating loons are out in force today. With the few exceptions out there who actually can think on their own, such as jackie0428, michaelt302, and notblue. Count me among those who believe--heck, I KNOW, that 20 years hence historians will look back kindly on Bush and say "He was right. He went with his gut on Iraq and we hava better and safer world because of it." Jackie and Michael, keep up the good work, you guys are 100% right on the money.

[robertkjjj]

Debating a liberal is like teaching a pig to sing. You never get anywhere, and the pig is just as dumb as a box of bricks when you''re finished as when you started.

[tonyd_31]

notblue, did you just arrive from Mars? Fighting for freedom, is that what we are doing? We are fighting because of the Iraqi''s oil reserves and the STUPIDEST foreign affairs blunder of our life time. You people (rightwing fanatics) both amaze me and sicken me at the same time... GO DEMS! McCain does not stand a chance! However, no one can do more harm than ''W'' so in that aspect....It is a win for all of us!

[leftyintexas]

I know it is a novel idea but let them decide what they want to do. After all, wasn''''t democracy one of Bush''''s talking points about Iraq.

Posted by IOWEIGN at 10:55 AM : Apr 03, 2008

Well said! But you know, trying to communicate with bushie followers is hopeless. After all they think like Doofus so it''s like trying to reason with Doofus himself and we all know he is clueless. Bushie followers are shallow thinkers, they don''t see beyond their noses. You and I know what will eventually happen in Iraq...the same thing that happened in Iran and in Viet Nam. The CIA deposed the ruling government in Iran in the 1950''s and installed the Shah and eventually the Iranians revolted and put in their own idiot, Ayatollah Khomeini. It''s their country, not ours, as the bushie followers like to believe. In Viet Nam, President Ngo Dinh Diem was assassinated, with the help of... guess who? The CIA. Well to make a long story short, the Vietnamese people, not the Americans, decided how their country was going to be governed WHICH BRINGS US TO IRAQ. We will eventually leave Iraq (the sooner the better!) and when we do the Iraqis will have the final say in who governs who, NOT US. Don''t try to tell this to the bushie followers, they like to compare Iraq to Germany and Japan. Ridiculous comparison but that''s what they believe. These trolls like to bait us by asking us for FACTS or for us to PROVE this or that but we know they just want some excuse to dismiss it all with a flippant remark.