Did The Manson Family Have Other Victims?

Forensics Suggests Bodies May Still Be Buried In The High Desert Where Charles Manson Lived

(AP)  She has given herself two tasks, she said: making sure her sister's killers never go free, and helping other families find the peace that has eluded her.

"If there are bodies here," she said at the ranch, "we need to find them and send them home."

About 100 yards behind the house, Dostie readied his trained dog, Buster, for the search.

"Go find Fred!" Dostie said, releasing the dog on the command that sends him searching for human remains.

The dog bounded away, zigzagging over the terrain. Then he lay down in a depression in the ground, quivering, ears upright. Buster looked at his trainer and emitted a high-pitched whine.

"He's alerting," Dostie said, throwing the dog his reward and planting a flag on the site.

Meanwhile, Arpad Vass and Marc Wise, senior researchers from Tennessee's Oak Ridge National Laboratory, were readying the first of the instruments they'd brought, capable of chemically detecting evidence of decades-old human bodies. It was a hand-held device shaped like a gun.

"It's a crude sniffer," said Vass. "It gives us a quick indication of areas we want to come back to."

The machine detects fluorinated hydrocarbon compounds, one of the approximately 400 types of volatile organic compounds emitted by human bodies during decomposition. Focusing on these compounds is important because Vass believes they're formed as the fluoride added to urban drinking water is released after death.

Their presence helps differentiate a human bone from bones from wild animals, explained Vass, who has spent years developing a decomposition odor database using bodies donated to the Oak Ridge lab.

The instrument beeped at regular intervals. As it approached the ground, the beeping accelerated until it was a steady stream of sound.

"That's impressive," said Wise, a senior researcher at Oak Ridge specializing in environmental analytical chemistry. Vass agreed.

Using a thin, 3-foot long probe, Vass tested the soil in the area. It slid into the ground without much effort.

"Undisturbed soil isn't this easy to probe," he said.

"The loose soil area is roughly like this," he said, using the tip of the instrument to draw a long oval on the ground. "It's about three feet deep."

"We need to do an IR," he said, turning to Wise.

He was calling for the next piece of machinery - larger and heavier, but more specific. It could be calibrated to detect different compounds, using technology known as infrared spectroscopy to "read" a particular molecule's profile.

"We're getting the highest hits here, where the ground is soft," said Wise. "There's definitely something down there," he said. "We just can't know yet exactly what until we dig."

"Or who," said Vass.

The men crouched close to the ground, gathering three samples of dirt from each area of interest for further analysis using more finely tuned lab equipment that could not be brought into the field.

The group broke for lunch. Dostie shared bread and cold cuts in front of the ranch house where Manson was finally arrested, in October 1969, after being found crammed in a bathroom cabinet.

Afterward, Daniel Larson took up his part of the investigation. The head of the archaeology department at California State University, Long Beach, Larson has used Ground Penetrating Radar and a magnetometer - an instrument that can peer 12 feet into the ground - in archaeological work and to help find mass graves.

At Barker Ranch, he took 2,025 readings of the ground at the suspect site, stopping every four inches within a 26-by-20-foot grid, looking for discrepancies that indicated earth had been moved.

"What I'm looking for is the pit, not the bones," he explained.

He'll have to return later to use the Ground Penetrating Radar. The soil still held some moisture from recent storms, and that could disturb the results.

Watching the scientists do their work, Harder spoke of his memories of the Manson clan - the churlish, armed young men, the pretty girls with blank, doll-like expressions.

"I didn't feel real easy around them," he said. "They picked up all kinds of people - hitchhikers and stuff."

He particularly remembers two teenage runaways who escaped the ranch, then stopped at a nearby mining camp for food. They had enough fear in them to make it out of the rugged mountains barefoot, said Harder.

They turned themselves in to the California Highway Patrol at the mouth of Anvil Springs Canyon - booked as Stephanie Jean Schram, 17, a runaway from Anaheim, and Kathryn Rene Lutesinger, 17, runaway from Los Angeles, on Oct. 10, 1969.

"Both females stated that they were attempting to run away from 'Charlie' the leader of the 'family' and that they were afraid of their lives," read the CHP report.

Their fear was well-founded. Following the police raid on Spahn Ranch in August, Manson and the family killed ranch hand Donald "Shorty" Shea for "snitching" and buried him out there.

That body wasn't found until more than eight years later.

"I dug it up myself," about a quarter mile behind the ranch house, said Sgt. Bill Gleason, a now-retired homicide investigator with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

"There were rumors of other deaths, minors killed out in Death Valley," said Gleason, who took part in the original Spahn Ranch raid. "We just didn't have anything concrete to link to the Manson family."

The runaway girls didn't know how close they'd come to becoming another one of these rumors.

The day they turned themselves in, CHP officers headed to Barker Ranch for the first of what would be two car theft raids.

On their way, they arrested two men - booked as Gary Milton Tufts and Randy J. Mourglea - whom they found asleep at the mouth of Goler Wash, a sawed-off shotgun between them. They were from Barker Ranch, CHP said.

When told of the arrests, both girls told officers they believed the armed men were sent "to stop them from walking away," according to CHP's report.

Were others less lucky when they tried to escape?

Vass said that, considering the quantity and the types of markers of human decomposition found, the cadaver dog's response, and the probing exercise, he found enough evidence to warrant further testing at a deeper level and a full scale excavation at Barker Ranch, according to the report he issued to law enforcement.

"I'd recommend a dig, excavate the sites," said Dostie, who reviewed the report.

But if a body is found on the Barker Ranch, then what?

The likelihood of a new prosecution appears slim. Locating remains would just be the first step, said Patrick Sequeira, the Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who has been in charge of the Manson family parole hearings since Kay's retirement.

"You have to tie them to someone who has disappeared, and there were a lot of people floating in and out of the family environment who were runaways, or hiding out," he said.

Then investigators would have to find out who killed them, where, and who could testify, he said.

The Manson family members currently in prison are already serving life sentences - the maximum penalty allowed at the time the crimes were committed.

Still, Sequeira did not discourage the efforts of the crime scene re-investigators. "I'd love to see them put something together," he said.

[zootallures2]

Yea, they are from the four women Geraldo knocked up and needed to get rid of.

[avigil2]

I wish some of you morons would stick to the story at hand and make comments pertaining to the story. Sheesh people, get a grip and quit your preaching, and leave politics out of it.

[dylanxxv]

DylanXXV -- The water I grew up drinkng in Georgia was always floridated and I''''m past 50. I do not know if other states required it during the late 50''''s and early 60''''s but apparently Georgia did.

Posted by oldpilot954 at 04:05 PM : Mar 17, 2008

Thanks...

[knyghtwolf]

These "commandments" are shredded DAILY by our leaders of today and you, that condemn others are the biggest hypocrites of them all!!! Which god are we talking about here? Which faith is the true one, the ONLY one, the loudest one, the FAKEST one? We read this EVERY SINGLE day, comment on, jeering about and condescending to groveling masses huddled at their feet. These are not the commandments, they are the REASONS people like bush, cheney, hussein, pitlin, have all got JOBS!!!! Get a life and get over it. Quit supporting the dammn circus by feeding the monkeys and clowns while your families go hungry.
1.You shall have no other gods but me!
2.You shall not make unto you any graven images!
3.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain!
4.You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy!
5.Honor your mother and father!
6.You shall not murder!
7.You shall not commit adultery!
8.You shall not steal!
9.You shall not bear false witness!
10.Thou shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

[oldpilot954]

DylanXXV -- The water I grew up drinkng in Georgia was always floridated and I''m past 50. I do not know if other states required it during the late 50''s and early 60''s but apparently Georgia did.

[noregion5]

Always an alterior motive when this news is published. God rest the souls of these victims. God bless the Americans that must pay for this type of crud. I''d rather see the time and money helping cure the mentally ill instead of disrupting the dead. When holy war breaks out here the ones will be refered to as Manson type individuals for not taking the mark. Sounds harsh but believe it has and will happen.

[avigil2]

Ironically, I just finished reading "Sharon Tate and the Manson Murders" and watched "Helter Skelter", the TV movie from the 70''s and the awesome remake from 2004 (both available on Netflix), all this week. Next August 2009, will be the 40th Anniversary of the Tate/La Bianca murders. This brutal and gruesome crime still fascinates today. It''s too bad our tax money goes to keeping Manson and his followers in jail for life. A total waste of money. Yes, it''s true that they were all given the death penalty but then reverted to life sentences when the death penalty was abolished, but then reinacted, which unfortunately, couldn''t be applied to these killers. May the memories of Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, Steven Parent, Wojciech Fykowski, Leno and Rosemary LiBianca live on. We will never forget you.

[dylanxxv]

They are doing nothing more than trying to get rich on this story...BTW...I don''t think they were adding fluoride to drinking water 40 years ago...

[william19491]

jwind11 9:46----ha, you are right about mc (vet)?
thats funny!!

[deemsnyd]

Why do we still spend thousands of tax payer''s money to keep this scum bag alive and protected?

[vortecmax]

Unfortunately, there are no crystal balls, no see-ers of the future. We must once again try to find the right leader of the free world. Is there another George Washington or Abe Lincoln in the group? Probably not. Is there someone or two or three someones capable of leading our country in the group? Probably. This person will be surrounded by a cabinet, advisers, and of course representatives of the people.
We as a country are going through difficult times. They may get worse before they get better. It is our job to find the person to lead us out of these times. Do not vote for a president. Vote for a leader of men.
And when the ballots are cast, don''t point fingers, pick up a shovel and get to work. Together.
Oh yeah, and that Manson guy is one sick puppy...

[vortecmax]

Is it on a self correcting course and the rebates will help to get us back on track? Maybe. Will an American hero from days past give us the steadfastness needed in tough times? Perhaps. Will another Clinton be able to balance the budget and rebound the economy? Possibly. Will a fresh face with lttle experience be able to change Washington and make us proud to be American again? Maybe.

[vortecmax]

Am I in the wrong place? I though that this was about Manson, not politics. It''s a shame that there can''t be any other discussions without political wanna be''s pointing fingers and assigning blame. We are all in this together, whether you voted blue or red three plus years ago. Now we are faced with the daunting task of finding someone to right the ship.

[jwind11]

mansons brother mcvet might know, ask him

[cbutler69]

I think they need to keep the death penatly going. Calofornia had the right idea some years back- 5 years or five appeals which ever comes first then youre outta here. Why should my tax money go to support these low lifes for the rest of their lives? Theyve already proven they dont care about life so we should take theres and have it over with. This is about as wasteful as our government nowadays. Time to clean house.

[zootallures2]

Learn by example....

Charles Manson "I was just doin'' what the government does every day."

[zootallures2]

You can check the Pentagon and White House lawn... and maybe the vicinity of Fox News after the neo-cons are gone too...LOL!

Debra Tate''s mother, Doris Tate, emerged from years of depression when she heard that a Manson family member was seeking parole.

Parole? Let''s see, you blow up the World Trade Center full of people, plant a passport, and blame the Muslims.... sound familiar?

[dowjones20k]

They were sentenced to death and then the death penalty was revoked.

Posted by barbaraf4 at 04:34 PM : Mar 16, 2008

Even if they had not been revoked California has more death row inmates that have waited 25+ years to be executed ... Even victims have passed before these pieces of garbage have met there fate through a jury of peers ...

Surprised no posts about Bush being responsible?

They will come ....

[hereticzero-2009]

A person can be convicted for other crimes and still receive a death sentence. Being convicted for one murder does not let someone off the hook for other murders. Even if the state does not seek the death penalty, there is yet an option to federal prosecution and death sentencing.

[barbaraf4]

"The Manson family members currently in prison are already serving life sentences - the maximum penalty allowed at the time the crimes were committed."
~~~~~~~~~~~
Not true! They were sentenced to death and then the death penalty was revoked. Their sentences were switched to life with possibility of parole.