Bush Vetoes Bill Banning Torture

Says CIA May Need To Use Harsh Interrogation Techniques That Critics Call Black Mark On America

(CBS/AP)  President George W. Bush said Saturday he vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods such as waterboarding to break suspected terrorists because it would end practices that have prevented attacks.

"The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror," the president said in his weekly radio address taped for broadcast Saturday. "So today I vetoed it."

The bill provides guidelines for intelligence activities for the year and includes the interrogation requirement. It passed the House in December and the Senate last month.

"This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe," the president said.

Supporters of the legislation say it would preserve the United States' ability to collect critical intelligence, and raise the country's moral standing abroad.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Congress would work to override Mr. Bush's veto next week. "In the final analysis, our ability to lead the world will depend not only on our military might, but on our moral authority," said Pelosi, a California Democrat.

But based on the margin of passage in each chamber, it would be difficult for the Democratic-controlled Congress to turn back the veto. It takes a two-thirds majority, and the House vote was 222-199 and the Senate's was 51-45.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Mr. Bush often warns against ignoring the advice of U.S. commanders on the ground in Iraq. Yet the president has rejected the Army Field Manual, which recognizes that harsh interrogation tactics elicit unreliable information, said Reid, a Nevada Democrat.

"Democrats will continue working to reverse the damage President Bush has caused to our standing in the world," Reid said.

"Torture is a black mark against the United States," said California Senator Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat. "We will not stop until (the ban) becomes law."

Jennifer Daskal, senior counterterrorism counsel at Human Rights Watch, said Mr. Bush "will go down in history as the torture president" for defying Congress and allowing the CIA to use interrogation techniques "that any reasonable observer would call torture."

"The Bush administration continues to insist that CIA and other nonmilitary interrogators are not bound by the military rules and has reportedly given CIA interrogators the green light to use a range of so-called 'enhanced' interrogation techniques, including prolonged sleep deprivation, painful stress positions, and exposure to extreme cold," Daskal said. "Although waterboarding is not currently approved for use by the CIA, Attorney General Michael Mukasey has refused to take it off the table for the future."

In a statement on Friday, Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said, "Unless Congress overrides the veto, it will go down in history as a flagrant insult to the rule of law and a serious stain on the good name of America in the eyes of the world."

He noted that the Army field manual contends that harsh interrogation is a "poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts and can induce the source to say what he thinks the (interrogator) wants to hear."

The intelligence bill would limit CIA interrogators to the 19 techniques allowed for use by military questioners. The Army field manual in 2006 banned using methods such as waterboarding or sensory deprivation on uncooperative prisoners.

Mr. Bush said the CIA must retain use of "specialized interrogation procedures" that the military does not need. The military methods are designed for questioning "lawful combatants captured on the battlefield," while intelligence professionals are dealing with "hardened terrorists" who have been trained to resist the techniques in the Army manual, the president said.

"We created alternative procedures to question the most dangerous al Qaeda operatives, particularly those who might have knowledge of attacks planned on our homeland," Mr. Bush said. "If we were to shut down this program and restrict the CIA to methods in the field manual, we could lose vital information from senior al Qaeda terrorists, and that could cost American lives."

The CIA director said in a memo Saturday to agency employees that it is not a choice between a "blanket application of the Army Field Manual or the legalization of torture."

The manual "does not exhaust the universe of lawful interrogation techniques," Mike Hayden wrote. "There are methods in CIA's program that have been briefed to our oversight committees, (that) are fully consistent with the Geneva Convention and current U.S. law, and are most certainly not torture."

He said military and intelligence missions are different. Hayden described the CIA program as a "tightly controlled and carefully administered national option that goes beyond the Army Field Manual" and has been a "lawful and effective response" to the threat of terrorism. "It will continue to be so as we work within the boundaries established by our nation's laws," he wrote.

The 19 interrogation techniques allowed in the Army Field Manual include the "good cop/bad cop" routine; making prisoners think they are in another country's custody; and separating a prisoner from others for up to 30 days.

Among the techniques the field manual prohibits are:

• hooding prisoners or putting duct tape across their eyes.
  
• stripping prisoners naked.
  
• forcing prisoners to perform or mimic sexual acts.
  
• beating, burning or physically hurting them in other ways.
  
• subjecting prisoners to hypothermia or mock executions.

It does not allow food, water and medical treatment to be withheld. Dogs may not be used in any aspect of interrogation.

But waterboarding is the most high-profile and contentious method in question.

It involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning. It has been traced back hundreds of years to the Spanish Inquisition and is condemned by nations around the world and human rights organizations as torture.

The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 includes a provision barring cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment for all detainees, including CIA prisoners, in U.S. custody. Many people believe that covers waterboarding.

There are concerns that the use of waterboarding would undermine the U.S. human rights efforts overseas and could place Americans at greater risk of being tortured when captured.

The military specifically prohibited waterboarding in 2006. The CIA also prohibited the practice in 2006 and says it has not been used since three prisoners were subjected to it in 2003.

But while some Bush administration officials have questioned the current legality of waterboarding, the administration has refused to rule definitively on whether it is torture. Mr. Bush has said many times that his administration does not torture.

The White House says waterboarding remains among the interrogation methods potentially available to the CIA.

"Because the danger remains, we need to ensure our intelligence officials have all the tools they need to stop the terrorists," Mr. Bush said.

Meanwhile, Newsweek reported earlier this week that the Canadian government is refusing to use testimony from alleged al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah in its prosecution of two terror suspects, because the testimony was acquired during CIA interrogations in which Zubaydah was waterboarded.

Newsweek quotes a Canadian spokesman as saying that the director of the nation's intelligence service finds torture "morally repugnant and not particularly reliable," and that information obtained through torture is not knowingly used.

[skyk-2009]

Torture is an act of a Coward! I believed that when the people of Germany did it or those of Japn or those of Korea, were resorting to Torture we came to a decision. A Free and Moral people do not do things like that. No matter your reason, this is something America should NEVER do.

[cbs_oliver]

George and his associates are making it easier for those of us who think that he belongs in a cell right next to Osama bin Laden.

He keeps admitting and rationalizing war crimes.

It is interesting that western society is taking no action.

It seems that Godless capitalism is the true belief and value system of society.

It makes it plausable to argue that the Nuhremberg trials were just a phoney show for a nieve public who still believes in God and right and wrong.

[cfin5]

Oh quit peein'' your britches you two. Our service members go through it in their training. War is war,....so get your "left" thumbs out of your mouths! Besides, I never heard any sympathy from your likes when terrorists do what they do to their victims.

[xrucifer]

Use of torture by the US only hurts OUR young people when they are captured. Suppose the resisters in Iraq get the feeling that "anything goes"...just imagine! Seems many have forgotten the old maxim "what goes around comes around" The US has lost most of it''''s world creditability due to our "terrorist questioning techniques." And the truth is...we are goading these resisters into more and more violence...we are ruthless... so they might as well be.

Once America set the tone for the world... a humanitarian tone...ask the French after WWI. Now we set the tone for authorized lawlessness. And our lead is affecting the wars in Africa.

THE LIFE OF ***EVERY TERRORIST IN THE WORLD*** IS NOT WORTH ONE MOMENT OF OUR LIBERTY OR DIGNITY OR PLACE IN THE WORLD AS A PEOPLE OF COMPASSION ...PLEASE TELL MR BUSH.

You...I mean you dear reader...are thousands of times more likely to die falling down the stairs TODAY than to be affected by terrorism. Want to "save American lives"...put treads on the stairwells and encourage folks to use the hand rail. That will save many many more American lives than all the efforts of the S.S. oops!...I mean homeland security.

When GWB allows himself to be secretly, ruthlessly and violently interrogated with the exact methods he is espousing...then MAYBE he has the moral right to torture others. Until then he is what he is...a below average, out of control, rich frat boy.

[jestith]

Torture is not compatible with the land of the free and the home of the brave. It is a coward''s tool to be employed by the likes of Nazi Germany, the Spanish Inquisition, and the old Soviet Union. It there was every truly a case where a terrorist held the key to some big upcoming disaster, individuals would do what they felt was necessary regardless of laws and then face the consequences for their action. To make it government policy that this is OK is not right, though. I''ll never again vote for anyone who supports this decision.

[zippydog-2009]

And Bush is a born again Christian? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH yeah...sure he is.

[addcons]

All you have to ask yourself Mr. Bush is would it be considered torture if our enemies were doing it to our pow''s would it be torture? I think it would. But... ever consider the similarity Homeland Security... and Fatherland Gestapo

[ed657]

Now as before Bush has confirmed that he is a shameless, unapologetic liar and hypocrite. As such he is happy and comfortable in his skin because like everything else, he''s been able to rationalize and deny. He has never once suffered the consequences of his actions, not in his business failings or anything else so we shouldn''t expect him to start now. He has taken the presidency as fun and games as a joke which comes across in his cavalier "bring em on" and you''re either "with us or agin us" attitude.
Bush is a total failure and an insult to the American people. He has hurt us so bad. The only reasonable answer is in Brattleboro, VT.

[average_guy1]

This may well be the only thing I am aware of that Bush has done right. Some of us not affiliated with the PC movement (I used to be until it became an exercise in stupidity), are broad enough (old enough) to understand what torture is. Take a lokk here if you are unsure.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=torture&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[sixtycycles]

Waterboarding does not do any permanent damage. Apparently it works. To me, it is not torture. Compared with decapitating innocent civilians on video, it is mild. Thank you Mr. President for having the guts to do what is right. Despite the bombardment of personal attacks you stand fast to the principle that innocent civilians should not be slaughtered in the name of religion. What a great leader.

[psk123-2009]

This man has made it terribly embarrassing it is to be an American citizen. How is it possible for anyone who claims to be Christian (or just plain human for that matter) to justify the use of torture? Torture will get you nothing but what you want to hear. Water boarding is torture by whatever name you wish to call it. It is illegal according to our own laws as well as the world laws.

Did or did not the United States try, convict and execute Japanese officers for doing this very same thing to American soldiers during WWII? Why was water boarding so very, very wrong and considered torture then and yet totally acceptable behavior now?

How it is possible this guy has not been tossed to the world court to be tried as a war criminal or not impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors against our constitution? At the very least he and his administration deserve to spend the rest of their miserable (and hopefully very long) lives behind bars.

[newz4i]

Gulag = old Soviet Union - Gulag = new United States.

[useurnoggin]

Here is something to ponder. With the military comissions act of 2006 in play. Bush has the "right" to use these interrogation methods on anyone he deems a military combatant. This includes American citizens who refuse to cooperate with our goverments ridiculous policies. How would you feel if your son or daughter stood up to our corrupt goverment and was subjected to these interrogation methods? America, you had better wake up to whats going on right under you noses before you are a prisoners in the land your your forefathers conquered! Civil liberties are becoming history. My suggestion would be that when they do pass gun banning laws in this country, and they will, you had better bury some.... The future is coming and soon all you sheep will be losing your wool. What a shame.. Ignorance is no excuse for the loss of liberty or freedom! Educate yourself.

[average_guy1]

This may well be the only thing I am aware of that Bush has done right. Some of us not affiliated with the PC movement (I used to be until it became an exercise in stupidity), are broad enough (old enough) to understand what torture is. Take a look here if you are unsure.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=torture&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[hurt37]

With the fall of the dollar the rise in oil the loss of US jobs the falling home values the decimation of the middle class Illegal Iraq War with continued occupation Abu Girab The Deception behind the Twin Towers that''s yet to come to light fully whats the US Official Seal on Tortue but a parting Bonus from the Worlds most impeachable Leader.

[magik13]

Waterboarding is shame based torture and was used during the inquisition. Like the inquisition...it is and evil and shameful part of humanities past. Even Bush''s professed religion teaches "do onto other as you would have others do onto you." How about if Bush was strapped to the waterboard?" How would the 28% president like it then?

[magik13]

Waterboarding is shame based torture and was used during the inquisition. Like the inquisition...it is and evil and shameful part of humanitie''s past. Even Bush''s professed religion teaches "do onto other as you would have others do onto you." How about if Bush was strapped to the waterboard?" How would the 28% president like it then? He doesn''t get it. He hasn''t gotten it for the last 8 years...and he won''t get it.

[gopack443]

Remember when we were the good guys? Bush is proof anyone (born into money) can grow up to be president, intelligence and integrity are optional.

[lady_indigo]

The United States executed Japanese officers after WWII for waterboarding American POW''s. Waterboarding sure was torture as far as the US was concerned back then. George W. Bush is a war criminal and I agree that he and Cheney should be locked up next to Bin Laden and made to answer for the crimes they have committed. He has done more harm to this country than I ever realized a single president could do and I am deeply embarrassed to be an American right now. It is time for the citizens to get energized to stand up and tell the government that we will not have this. Call your Senators and Congressmen and tell them that this kind of nonsense will not fly, tell them you ARE paying attention and you will not give your vote to anyone who supports torture.

This is the bad news for american. The consequeces have not yet shown. Hope that we will live a peaceful life for a long time.

[flreason]

McCain''s current refusal to condemn waterboarding, after having denounced it in the past, is proof positive that he has sold his soul in pursuit of his political ambitions. Waterboarding IS torture, and the fact that our military may demonstrate the technique on special forces soldiers in no way justifies it. Those soldiers know that it is a demonstration of torture they might have to endure if caught. The military doesn''t routinely use this unannounced on soldiers. There is no proof that our use of waterboarding has produced any usable results...only assertions by members of an administration who have repeatedly shown that they will lie under oath to further secure their own political power and personal wealth-enhancing agendas. They should be tried as the traitors they are.

[DocD--2008]

Mr Bush needs a good waterboarding himself, then he can decide. The US people cannot wait till he is out of office. I hope whoever is eleceted sends his daughters to Iraq where my kids have been serving.

[the74blaster]

Thank you Mr. President for protecting America. Keep up the good work for the reaminder of your term, as it appears to be only a matter of time before the dems get in office and screw it up like Clinton did, allowing the terrorist to easily infiltrate America and murder innocent civilians.

Posted by dmcar2000''

Yeah. How do you define *** things up.

Under Clinton the Nasdaq was over 5,000, under Bush its less than 2,000.

Under Clinton we actually had an annual budget surplus of 234 billion, under Bush he does not include the costs of Iraq in the equation and its still a 400 billion deficit.

Under Clinton the economy was booming and under Bush we have a recession.

Clinton was a far better president than Bush. All you need to do is look at the facts.

[rermay]

Senator Kennedy should keep his comments to himself. When it comes to ethics and morality he showed his true cowardly colors at Chappaquiddick when he left a young lady to die as he crawled home to safety. He is a blow hard, a has been, and is struggling to keep himself in the lime light. Please do America a favor Senator...go away.

[rermay]

Senator Kennedy should keep his comments to himself. When it comes to ethics and morality he showed his true cowardly colors at Chappaquiddick when he left a young lady to die as he crawled home to safety. He is a blow hard, a has been, and is struggling to keep himself in the lime light. Please do America a favor Senator...go away.

[gopack443]

dmcar2000, you need to check the dates of the terrorists attacks. is was Sept 11 2001, 9 months after bush became president and had the same information Clinton did. If Clinton had such great information to work with, bush did to and neither did anything about it.
Think about why that might be and you see whats really going on, not what somebody feeding you the government line or competing for ratings and more advertising money is telling you.
Everyone needs to get beyond the emotions and preconceived thoughts from years of being told untruths be well meaning but misinformed people.
It''s not democrats verses republicans or vise verse, It''s them against us!

[rermay]

Senator Kennedy should keep his comments to himself. When it comes to ethics and morality he showed his true cowardly colors at Chappaquiddick when he left a young lady to die as he crawled home to safety. He is a blow hard, a has been, and is struggling to keep himself in the lime light. Please do America a favor Senator...go away.

[walt1944-2009]

The Great Emperor Bush II has vetoed the bill passed by Congress forbidding torture, claiming that such Black-Shirted organizations as the CIA and FBI would need to use "extreme measures" to combat "terrrrrrrorism"!

To many, this kind of argument is the same sort of argument that Hitler used to exterminate the Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and even capture allied POW''s. Although many of the young neocon Fascist Nazi Republicans here have not lived thru it, there are many in Europe who still remember the "death camps", the Gestapo, the SS, the gas chambers and furnaces and the "experimentation labs" of sadists like Mengele. And there are many WW II former POW''s who fought Japan who remember the Japanese death marches, the slave labor camps, the nerve gas and biological "experiments" carried out on live POW''s, and ask any former Iron Curtin country citizen about the Russian gulags.

At the end of WW II, the Allies prosecuted and hung those responsible for these actions judging them as WAR CRIMES!

Today, those same crimes are HERE, in the US, and protected by neocon Fascist Nazi Republicans like the Great Emperor Bush II. If there is any justice in the world to be handed out today, it will be the Europeans job to do it because here, "impeachment is off the table".!!

SIG HEIL, BUSH!!!
sig heil, McCain????

[armydog2]

The USA is supposed to be above The use of torture. This is one of the things our fathers and uncles and brothers fought for during WW11. My father was a colonel in the US Army when he retired and would be appalled by this if he was still alive.Honor and Integrity were the qualities of an Army officer that my father was totally commited to. This is not conduct becoming the USA. This makes us just as bad as the terrorists plain and simple. And the fool in the whitehouse is too power hungry and stubborn to see it.

[ngiaquin]

We foiled terrorist plots since 9/11 and have been safe since 9/11 on the account of good intelligence. This is what we are limiting them to:

"...restricted CIA personnel include the "good cop/bad cop" routine, making prisoners think they are in another country''s custody and separating a prisoner from others for up to 30 days."

Okay: Good Cop Bad Cop? I''m a terrorist who is willing to blow myself up, I doubt a little good cop/bad cop will make me reveal my terrorist plot.

They do not march in uniform or for a country, so they are enemy combatants and not entitled to the terms of the Geneva Convetion.

[armydog2]

Mccain who was tortured as a POW during vietnam should be the loudest to condemn such actions, only proves he is just as much a fool as bush.

[poopusbuttus]

The best way to make the towel heads, or sheet heads talk, is put a pig in their cells.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by zolefart

I have a better idea. Starve them, then give them a plate full of ham sandwiches.....

[flreason]

rermay:

I hope you''re not a neocon trying to shift the focus. We will all concede that Kennedy is a politician (poli=many, tic=blood-sucking parasite) with a dubious past. This subject is too important to waste time on trivialities like Kennedy''s comments. Americans should be taking to the streets to (peacefully) protest Bush''s actions. Rather than protect Americans, his sanctioning torture can be used by terrorists to justify their actions, attract funding, and recruit new terrorists!

[rowdytexan2]

"We created alternative procedures to question the most dangerous al Qaeda operatives, particularly those who might have knowledge of attacks planned on our homeland," Mr. Bush said. "

How pathetic when they don''t even seem to have enough evidence to bring these men to trial. And any evidence they did have was destroyed in their maniacal attempt to deny that they ever used waterboarding! Now any confessions they have will automatically be questioned as authentic.

The incompetence of the Neocon regime and their manifest destiny ideology is a plague that needs to be wiped out of existence.

[the74blaster]

Senator Kennedy should keep his comments to himself. When it comes to ethics and morality he showed his true cowardly colors at Chappaquiddick when he left a young lady to die as he crawled home to safety. He is a blow hard, a has been, and is struggling to keep himself in the lime light. Please do America a favor Senator...go away.

Posted by rermay,

Yeah, he is not exactly a poster child for the Democratic party. However, when you consider Bush''s actions and the way he has ruined the dollar''s value with his short sighted economic policies, he hardly represents the majority of the GOP.

Get ready for some real bad political news on the first Tuesday in November.

[jerr11]

one more glorious achievement of the Bush presidency.

Other highlights

sky high deficits

$4 a gallon gas

935 lies

4000 DEAD AMERICANS because of those lies

$2.5 Billion American taxpayers dollars) a week down the ******** in Iraq because of those lies.

heckuva job, Liar-in-Chief!

[the74blaster]

I have a better idea. Starve them, then give them a plate full of ham sandwiches.....

Posted by poopusbuttus,

Good one. Ouch!

[poopusbuttus]

The waterboarding will continue. No matter what you say....it''s over for your dummy liberal ideology. It will not stop, and, you cannot stop it.

[poopusbuttus]

Good one. Ouch!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by the74blaster

THanks :)

[crc19791]

I find it interesting that torture throughout history has always been done by people claiming to do it in the name of their God and for the good of their people and then these same people preach "Do Unto Others as you would have them do unto you". This world will be a better place without George Bush in that''s for sure and McCain should be ashamed of himself after having been a POW himself but hey the people making the decisios won''t actually have to experience any of the affects of their decisions so why should they care. Wake up people and take a history class if you think what Bush is doing is ok. The saddest part is that the American people didn''t even pick him to be our president in the first place. But I guess if your Daddy and friends have enough money and Power you can even change the outcome in a democratic society.

[the74blaster]

The waterboarding will continue. No matter what you say....it''''s over for your dummy liberal ideology. It will not stop, and, you cannot stop it.

Posted by poopusbuttus,

Why waste the water when you have perfectly good ham sandwiches?

[mnm151]

I feel that Bush is shaming us with this veto. I have always been told to treat everyone with respect despite their wrongs and to always have a sense of decorum as an intelligent respectful citizen.I understand we are talking about terrorists but they are people and there is a proper legal rightous way to handle things. This in a way makes our country look like the kids that stab other kids over simple insults at school.I hope that Congress overrides this veto.

[poopusbuttus]

Why waste the water when you have perfectly good ham sandwiches?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by the74blaster

Well, they have to have something to wash the sandwiches down with :P)

[slim1h2o]

Bush Vetoes Bill Banning Torture;

Of course he will. I swear, this man is the Devil reincarnated.

[flreason]

Poopus/74blaster:

OMG, you guys sound like little grade school boys. Try entering into an intelligent adult discussion, for a change, instead of indulging in faith-bashing rhetoric. You risk alienating Muslims who don''t like the extremists, and what they have done in the name of Islam, any more than you do.

[missingamerica]

My, this Administration is hypocritical, aren''t they? Don''t want to play by the Geneva Conventions - because being unable to inflict the kind of suffering they admire would cramp their style.

But let somebody in France break a U.S. copyright law, and send in the stormtroopers!

It is a wonder any nation anywhere respects any of our laws or any international laws that we favor - why should they, when our chickenhawk leaders pick and choose which they will obey?

[poopusbuttus]

I''''ll be blessed with gawd''''s aura of disparagment. The unstoppable force of happenstance''''s army. The vulnerability of the ego of the id and the machismo. Oblivious to all profile. Oblivious to all rationale. And turn a whole country on its head with its own corrupt politicians.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by spacetruck9


SSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUUUUT UP YOU FREAK

[erichsh]

9/11 was a black mark against the United States, but there have been no reoccurences since then, so something is working right.

Want to know what REAL torture is? From a CNN article describing an Al Qaeda torture manual:

"The manual, illustrated by graphic drawings, shows how to use drills to torture people, sever hands, drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin, remove eyes and electrocute people, among other tactics."

Now THAT''s torture. Tell me the US is doing this, and maybe you whiners might have a point. In the meantime, stop wringing your hands over "waterboarding", and think about the people who jumped to their death from 110 floors up rather than be burned alive.

[jestith]

Torture is not an issue between political parties. It is a moral and practical question. Morally, it''s pretty plainly wrong. Practically, it has no value in getting information from suspects, because as numerous military experts have testified, people will say anything to get the excruciating pain to stop. Torture''s only true value is for the sadistic macho psychopath, and we certainly don''t need to sanction that in our laws unless we wish to become just like the enemy, in which case we become what we hate.

[forthepeopl1]

9/11 was a black mark against the United States, but there have been no reoccurences since then, so something is working right.

dont you know why, because bush/cheney and their saudi freinds have done what they set up to do in the first place..profit,big profit, money lots of money..
and take out america...remember 18 out of 19 hijackers were saudi''s.........think about it..obl is a ralitive of the saudi king......nothing will ever happen to him while king bush and queen cheney is in office.