Scientists Come Out Against Gun Database

National Research Council Says Proposed Ballistics Database Would Be Too Big To Function

(AP)  Collecting ballistic "fingerprints" from millions of new guns would create a database that would be too unreliable to be useful in solving gun crimes, a team of U.S. scientists said Wednesday.

The 300-page report from the National Research Council advised against a proposal that some lawmakers called for in the wake of the 2002 Washington-area sniper shootings.

The concept relies on the assumption that individual guns leave unique markings, like fingerprints, on bullets and shell casings. Some in Congress have said that every new gun should be test-fired so those markings can be entered into a database. Investigators could then use the database to identify which gun fired bullets found at crime scenes.

But the study said the idea is not feasible because digital imaging technology is not reliable enough to distinguish tiny differences in the markings.

The proposed database would be similar to the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network, which is already in use. Run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the database includes ballistic data on about 100,000 guns used in crimes. It has about a 75 percent to 95 percent success rate, the scientists found.

With that kind of success rate, supporters say, creating a database for all guns only makes sense.

"Ballistics testing is only as useful as the number of images in the database," Sen. Herb Kohl, a Democrat, said while pushing for the database in 2002.

Actually, the opposite is true, Wednesday's report said. The larger the database, the more errors the computer will return.

Under the current system, the computer might find 10 possible matches for a single bullet and there's a good chance one of them will be confirmed. After adding more than 1 million guns to the database each year, the same system might produce hundreds of possible matches.

"It's a scale problem," said John Rolph, chairman of the group that completed the study. "If we're talking about using this in criminal investigations, we've got to be able to get something that's practically useful."

Kohl spokesman Rohit Mahajan said the senator was reviewing the report. He did not say whether Kohl still supported the idea but said it needed further study. Kohl was one of several lawmakers who have supported the database.

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign gun control advocacy group, said he still supports the idea of a nationwide ballistics database. But he acknowledged that, in part because of the issues cited in the report, the database likely would not be created in the immediate future.

He said alternatives such a microstamping - a technique in which guns are built to leave permanent, unique and traceable marks on ammunition- are more likely.

The report also questioned the underlying theory behind ballistic imaging. It said the idea that each firearm produces unique marks has not been scientifically proven.

Other variables make the program even more unreliable, the report found. For instance, guns leave different markings on different types of ammunition and the type of ammo used in a crime might not be the same type used during test-firing.

A national database also would not account for the millions of guns already in use. ATF spokesman Robert Browning said the average gun used in a crime is 10 years old. He said the idea of a national database for all handguns needs to be studied more.

"I think what we have now is working well," he said.

The Justice Department contracted with the National Research Council, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, to conduct the study. Its authors are professors at the top U.S. universities and researchers at technology companies.

[gunnerv1]

guidofoot why would the warden increase my meds, according to Schoolmast1 I live in a Palace. LOL. Heres a freebe for you Schoolmast1, I keep all meds lockedup. Now take the ball and run with it. LOL

[guidosfoot]

gunnerv, perhaps you should ask your warden to increase your meds.

[andyli1004]

keep your database smaller and you will do much better at weeding out the improbables. Internet is a good place to share information and meet friends. I

recently found a nice web site called pubspa.com where you can meet

friends who have same interest in beauty care, massage, wellness and

spa treatment. You can also share blog, video, game, photos, etc with

people from all over the world. Unlike other online dating sites where

you have to pay membership fee, this site is totally free. I already

made several interesting friends there.

[gunnerv1]

I am your worst nightmare.
I am everything that you hate.
I am a Gun Owner.
I am an American Fighting Man.
I am a Middle Class Conservative and,
I vote Gun issues.
I donate to the Politican of my choice,
not party.
I count myself among the Brave Men and Women
of this Great Nation that will stand up and
fight for what is right.
I will fight for my Fellow Man.
I will fight for those who are weak and tired.
I will fight for my Country and its causes.
I will fight for the Colors of this Free Nation.
I hope that the 50 Stars and 13 Stripes remain,
but I despair that there may soon be a New Flag
over these 50 states.
Long live Free

[gunnerv1]

"American Citizens are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.
Firearms and ammunition found in a Citizen''''s possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation. Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions...will be punished with imprisonment and a fine.
Regulations Against U.S. Citizens Possession of Weapons, January 23, 2009, Democratic Minister of the Interior.

As published from the Democratic Party Manifesto, January 21,2009
IT''s Coming, and you saw it here first. Sign up for the coming civil war soon.

[toolmangler-2009]

It said the idea that each firearm produces unique marks has not been scientifically proven."
Posted by BillORights at 04:54 PM : Mar 06, 2008



Everything in this universe has a double, (twin, doppelganger or what have you) search a big enpough sample and you will find it, that is what the Scientists are saying, (Do not use every single gun as a sample, only use those that have been used in a crime or at a crime scene) keep your database smaller and you will do much better at weeding out the improbables.

[toolmangler-2009]

All of the world is insane, except for thee and me, and, sometimes I wonder about ''thee''....

[bhappy2-2]

The ONE who shall remain nameless (although using a different name) says "That''''s NOT proof the database won''''t work. That''''s one study saying if you put too many fingerprints in the system it could be unrealible."

And, since the study did not come from DOJ or FBI criminologists, it cannot possibly be right. Even though it was done by "experts".

[billorights]

"The report also questioned the underlying theory behind ballistic imaging. It said the idea that each firearm produces unique marks has not been scientifically proven."

[gunnerv1]

cusefanjapan The science is flawed and won''t work the way the anti-gun types want it to work and besides that, it really, really expensive. And the Military would have to have its ammunition and firearms done too (at great expense)!

[dannyeller]

What about bullets?

Like taxing them 500% like Obama wants to do?

Or by calling them armor piercing and be so vague that you ban all bullets (like what the Brady Campaign wants).

Or put "tangents" in them so that they are unsafe to use by law the law abiding yet for NO beneficial reason other than to do something (even if it does not work).

So what about bullets?

[dannyeller]

Fact.... Many of you on this post are absolutely insane. The USA is a Great Country and we are doing good and noble things throughout the world for which we get little or no credit. Yet, we still do them.

Fact.... The type of technology described here is useless and can be easily circumvented by any criminal in just seconds by using either a file, steel wool or even the finest of sand paper.

Fact... What works is to prosecute violent criminals and keep them away from the rest of us. To not interfere with law abiding citizens in having the means to defend themselves. That is a God Given Right and those that deprive us of it are criminals.

[dannyeller]

Fact.... Many of you on this post are absolutely insane. The USA is a Great Country and we are doing good and noble things throughout the world for which we get little or no credit. Yet, we still do them.

Fact.... The type of technology described here is useless and can be easily circumvented by any criminal in just seconds by using either a file, steel wool or even the finest of sand paper.

Fact... What works is to prosecute violent criminals and keep them away from the rest of us. To not interfere with law abiding citizens in having the means to defend themselves. That is a God Given Right and those that deprive us of it are criminals.

[rf35]

I fully support gun control. In fact, I am always in complete control of my gun. As everyone should be.

[rf35]

Just give us all guns and let us blow each other''''s brains out at the slightest annoyance. Then no need for a database. Brilliance in Action!
Posted by cusefanjapan at 09:01 AM : Mar 06, 2008

Yes, that is a good idea. It will help reduce the population, which is out of control. That will, in turn, reduce pollution, CO2 emissions, water usage, waste generation, AND it will drive down costs on virtually everything as demand drops below supply.

[closethippy1]

What a freaking coincidence. I was just thinking today about this. I thought it''d be a good idea to identify bullet markings so we know from which gun it came from.
It''s done everyday in courts throughout the country.
The problem seems to be that the technology is not all there, according to these scientists. Yet.
But it sounds as if they''ll figure out something and that would be simply awesome!
Like they say, "If you got nothing to hide, you got nothing to worry about."

[gunownerdan]

Even if there is proof the database will not work, it won''t stop gun hating extremists from wanting it anyway.

[coppertales]

Uh, what about revolvers? The brass cases go with the gun, not ejected like a semi auto pistol. If I was a criminal, I would attend public shooting ranges and pick up all the brass I could so I could scatter them around a shooting scene to throw off the cops. Just enforce the current laws. None of these data bases are reliable enough to spend billions on.....chris3

[phonegirl300]

Being a person from ruial Tennessee, it has been neccessary to have guns to obtain food. In the 20''s and 30''s my grandparents would have starved had it not been for the use of guns.

For this purpose, I will support gun use. I also support our rights to bear arms as well as to protect this country even from those that would attempt to set the stage for a "New World Order".

The road to slavery is one bite at a time out of the pie of freedom.

[ms38654ob]

Another problem with this type of database is that it''s extremely easy to alter the "fingerprint" of the gun. Simply adding a few grains of sand to the barrel before firing will change the character of the marks on ammo. This has been done since ballistics were used in crime work.