RAMALLAH, West Bank, March 4, 2008

Rice Blames Mideast Stalemate On Hamas

Secretary Of State In Region To Try And Revive Struggling Peace Talks

    • Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, right, meets with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at the Presidential palace in Cairo, Egypt, Tuesday, March 4, 2008. talks focused on Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Photo

      Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, right, meets with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at the Presidential palace in Cairo, Egypt, Tuesday, March 4, 2008. talks focused on Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.  (AP Photo/Amr Nabil)

    • A Palestinian man examines the damage to his house destroyed in an Israeli missile strike overnight, in the Northern Gaza Strip town of Jebaliya, March 3, 2008. In the early hours of Monday, Palestinians counted nine separate Israeli airstrikes on weapons manufacturing and storage facilities, a Hamas headquarters and groups of gunmen, all over Gaza. Five Palestinians were killed in the strikes, all of them Hamas militants. Photo

      A Palestinian man examines the damage to his house destroyed in an Israeli missile strike overnight, in the Northern Gaza Strip town of Jebaliya, March 3, 2008. In the early hours of Monday, Palestinians counted nine separate Israeli airstrikes on weapons manufacturing and storage facilities, a Hamas headquarters and groups of gunmen, all over Gaza. Five Palestinians were killed in the strikes, all of them Hamas militants.  (AP Photo/Khalil Hamra)

    • Israelis take cover after a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip by Palestinian militants hit a building in Ashkelon, Israel, March 3, 2008. Three rockets hit the city of 120,000 on Monday morning, with one hitting an apartment building. Photo

      Israelis take cover after a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip by Palestinian militants hit a building in Ashkelon, Israel, March 3, 2008. Three rockets hit the city of 120,000 on Monday morning, with one hitting an apartment building.  (AP Photo/Ariel Schalit)

    • Lebanese Hezbollah supporters, dressed as angels, carry replica dead bodies representing Palestinian children who were killed by Israeli attacks, during a protest in Beirut, Monday March 3, 2008. Thousands of protestors chanted anti-Israeli slogans. Photo

      Lebanese Hezbollah supporters, dressed as angels, carry replica dead bodies representing Palestinian children who were killed by Israeli attacks, during a protest in Beirut, Monday March 3, 2008. Thousands of protestors chanted anti-Israeli slogans.  (AP Photo/Hussein Malla)

    • An Egyptian woman holds an anti-Bush poster during a rally protesting the Israeli offensive in Gaza, in Cairo, Monday, March 3, 2008. Photo

      An Egyptian woman holds an anti-Bush poster during a rally protesting the Israeli offensive in Gaza, in Cairo, Monday, March 3, 2008.  (AP Photo/Amr Nabil)

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  • Interactive Mideast Conflict

    Events, key players and a history of the world's most unstable region.

(CBS/AP)  U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's Mideast trip kicked into high gear Tuesday with a strong admonishment of the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

Rice blamed Palestinian Hamas radicals for provoking an Israeli military onslaught in the Gaza Strip. The campaign has derailed an already troubled U.S-backed drive for peace terms this year.

"Negotiations are going to have to be able to withstand the efforts of rejectionists to upset them, to create chaos and violence, so that people react by deciding not to negotiate," Rice said in Egypt at the start of two days of efforts to rescue negotiations. "That's the game of those who don't want to see a Palestinian state established."

The moderate, U.S.-backed Palestinian leadership in the West Bank suspended peace talks in protest after an Israeli military offensive that killed more than 100 Palestinians in Gaza. That made restoring two-way talks Rice's chief objective for a trip she had planned to check up on the negotiators' progress.

Rice, who later appeared with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said that walking away from talks plays into the hands of militants.

"I know that there is great will to try and get to a solution by the end of the year. What we are trying to achieve is not easy ... but I do believe it can be done. We need very much for everybody to be focused on peace," Rice said later Tuesday during a joint press conference with Abbas.

Referring to the opponents of peace, she said, "We won't let them win." Rice also said that Israel should make "a very strong effort to spare innocent life" in Gaza.

For his part, Abbas declared that peace is his first choice in the Mideast.

"I call on the Israeli government to halt its aggression so the necessary environment can be created to make negotiations succeed, for us and for them, to reach the shores of peace in 2008," Abbas said. He was referring to the goal - stated at a U.S.-sponsored Mideast peace conference in November - of reaching an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty by the end of the year.

Also Tuesday, President Bush said he remains optimistic there will be a Mideast deal by the end of his presidency. Mr. Bush made the remarks in the Oval Office after meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah II.

Mr. Bush said it is "a process that always two steps forward and one step back" and said that people need to make sure that it's just "one step back."

Israel launched the offensive to stop rocket attacks by the Hamas militant groups on nearby Israeli cities, but the assault prompted Abbas to suspend negotiations. Israeli aircraft sent more missiles crashing into Gaza on Tuesday after more rockets were fired on the southern town of Sderot.

Rice backed Israel's right to respond to the rocket fire, but said it must avoid causing civilian casualties.

"The rocket attacks against innocent Israelis in their cities need to stop. This can't go on. No Israeli government can tolerate that," she said. But the Israelis "need to be aware of the effects of these operations on innocent people."

She said Hamas, which took over the Gaza Strip last July, is armed "in part" by Iran and underlined the need for the United States and the West to train and develop the Palestinian security forces loyal to Abbas, whose government controls the West Bank.

"Hamas gets armed by the Iranians and if nobody helps to improve the security capabilities of the legitimate Palestinian Authority security forces. That's not a very good situation," she said at a news conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit.

Rice said she still thinks the two sides can reach a deal for Palestinian statehood this year.

"I do think that negotiations ought to resume as soon as possible," Rice told reporters Monday on her way to the Middle East. "I understand that the situation has been complicated. But the longer the negotiations are not ongoing or the longer that they are suspended, if that's what one wants to call it, the more it is a victory for those who don't want to see a two-state solution."

Quote

We won't let them win.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
Rice declined to call for a cease-fire, which many Israelis think would legitimize Hamas and its hold in Gaza. The Mediterranean coastal strip is the smaller, poorer of two Arab tracts that would form an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel.

Gheit, whose country has sought to isolate Hamas, also stopped short of calling for a cease-fire. He said Egypt was seeking to convince Israel "not to resort to excessive use of force.... The imbalance of power (between Hamas and the Israelis) must be taken into account." He said Egypt also urges the Palestinians to halt rocket fire.

Israel said it wants to continue negotiations, but suggested it also may launch a full-scale re-invasion of the Gaza territory it abandoned three years ago in a first step toward ending defensive occupation of lands the Palestinians claim for the state.

Israel said it would return to Hamas-ruled Gaza if necessary.

"We cannot afford this kind of extreme Islamic state controlled by Hamas," Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told foreign diplomats in a meeting, according to a ministry statement released Tuesday. Israel evacuated Gaza "not in order to come back, but we might find ourselves in a situation that we have no other alternative."

In Egypt, Rice asked President Hosni Mubarak and other officials for help controlling Gaza's small border with Egypt, site of a border breach in January that became something of a public relations coup for Hamas. Some Israeli military analysts think the more sophisticated longer-range rockets fired at the Israeli city of Ashkelon in recent days probably came into Gaza during the week that fences with Egypt were down.

Rice was also looking for ways to speed aid into Gaza, sealed off for months as Israel tries to punish Hamas and break its rule. She said proposals from Egypt and the Palestinians to reopen a monitored border crossing point have merit.

Gaza and the Palestinian leadership split that underlies the crisis are the largest potential deal-killers for President Bush's goal to sign a peace treaty before the close of his term in January.

© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Add a Comment See all 410 Comments
by gce65 March 4, 2008 12:53 AM EST
Maybe Condi can mediate between the two sides--on pivot!
Reply to this comment
by incog-nito March 4, 2008 12:55 AM EST
It''s a little late in the game, isn''t it?
Reply to this comment
by hsinco-2009 March 4, 2008 1:06 AM EST
What are these people smoking?
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:10 AM EST
It''s "S*xy Sadie" from the George "Number 9" Bush family Spawn Ranch....ha ha ha ha

Bringing peace. Plant the wallet and they will take over and then call George to lead them....
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:15 AM EST
The US military is using tactics from the Manson familty. General Charles Manson Secretary of Defence.

We plant the passport on the ground and blame the Aye rabs and then the whitey go and conquire but whitey need a leader and they call Charlie and the four horsemen.... LOL!

AmeriKKKa is total looneyville!
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:24 AM EST
Sadey Mae Rice, George Jesus Christ Bush, Karl Tex Rove...

The Manson Family is running the US.
Reply to this comment
by jerr11 March 4, 2008 1:27 AM EST
All empty words.

Remember that old roadmap to peace?

June 24, 2002

"The Roadmap represents a starting point toward achieving the vision of two states, a secure State of Israel and a viable, peaceful, democratic Palestine.
It is a framework for progress towards lasting peace and security in the Middle East..."
--President George W. Bush


Typical Bushcrap!

This is the president of empty words, empty promises.

If it doesn''t have Halliburton involved, don''t believe a word of it!

Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:29 AM EST
Why not send some crazy bag lady who thinks elvis is her husband.

Condoleeza Rice should be commited to a mental institution. Unless you think bombing your own towers is normal. Then you are as nuts as she is and the Bush administration.

USA is bonkers! Quick, someone disable the nukes!
Reply to this comment
by jerr11 March 4, 2008 1:32 AM EST
June 24, 2002

"The Roadmap represents blah blah blah ..."
--President George W. Bush


I wanted to believe in him then.

If he had followed up on that speech, I would have voted for him in 2004.

No, he was too busy invading Iraq to enrich his cronies at Halliburton!

Money! It''s all about money, for this Liar-in-Chief!

Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:34 AM EST
"God told me to invade Afghanastan and I did, God told me to invade Iraq and I did, God told me to get the Palestinians a state and by God I''m gonna do it" - George Jesus Christ Bush

I think some one needs to send the PLO and Hamas a copy of the Manson Family movie to see just the kind of crack pots they''re dealing with.

Reply to this comment
by jerr11 March 4, 2008 1:37 AM EST
"God told me to invade ...


Posted by zootallures2 at 10:34 PM : Mar 03, 2008


A voice that tells you to invade another country and kill thousands in the process, that has to be the voice of Satan, not God.

G W Bush, Son of Satan.

Damned for all time!

Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:41 AM EST
If Condoleeza was coming to visit, I''d be like, "the crazy lady who blew up the towers is coming!" and point all guns to shoot her down...LOL!

When is Bush going to appoint Charles Manson to replace Karl Rove? Not much difference.
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:45 AM EST
Abbas better guard what few buildings he has left. Check her for explosives and make sure she doesn''t bring anyone from FEMA.
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:47 AM EST
Calm down Condi, don''t be like the Jews and the Holocaust, it was southerm white guys who had the slaves. No Arabs involved. It was Charlie Manson Bush and Tex Rove who planted the passport.
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:51 AM EST
Ariel Sharon got sick from VD from visiting the Bush Spawn Ranch...LOL! Plus too much LSD gave him a stoke. Putin likes it, he likes tripping out while bombing and shooting kids in a school house or putting explosives in apartment complexes.
Reply to this comment
by mh4cbs1 March 4, 2008 1:57 AM EST
Rice,

Give up. The NeoCon Nightmare is about to end. You had eight friggin years to do something constructive. Instead you LIED us into needless War, costing hundreds of thousands of lives, a literally very bloody mess. Instead Afghanistan is hanging on by a thread. Instead our debt has hit NINE TRILLION DOLLARS, the US dollar is plummeting, the wealth gap is skyrocketing, our jobs are being outsourced, the constitution has been shredded by your fascist friends in the White House, Exxon is getting corporate welfare, corporate lobbyists are writing our laws...

Go and Good Riddance. You have been a key contributor to the absolute worst administration in US history.
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 1:59 AM EST
Actually folks, Condi had postponed her trip until Israel started losing. Sukks being the bad guys, huh? God hears the calls to prayer from Gaza and sadistic reality tv and all night infomercials from Isreal. Guess which side he chose.
Reply to this comment
by zootallures2 March 4, 2008 2:09 AM EST
The crisis also recalled Israel''s 2006 war with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon, when civilian deaths built huge international pressure on Israel to pull back, and the Bush administration was perceived as running interference for its ally''s military offensive.

What a load of...

Isreal went after civilians because Hizb Allah troops were destrying Israeli terrorist tanks left and right. Just like in Gaza when Hamas troops are hitting IDF terrorist bases.

Reply to this comment
by ajayvee March 4, 2008 2:49 AM EST
100+ Palestinians slaughtered. Well, enough to help Ohlmert''s approval ratings, I suppose, but certainly not the Holocaust we were promised.
Reply to this comment
by boatdocster March 4, 2008 3:07 AM EST
When I think of a totally insignificant and incompetent government worker, promoted 10 levels past their skill, Condoleezza Rice instantly pops to mind.

Asleep at the wheel as National Security adviser, and 9/11 happens; and then gets a new cabinet job?!?!?

Has done absolutely NOTHING as Secretary of State, save travel and photo ops and lots of meaningless double talk.

Another classic BUSH cabinet person - loyal to the end, totally useless and ineffective!!

Rice could not find her backside or the bathroom with both hands during the middle of an acute Typhoid attack!!
Reply to this comment
by jerr11 March 4, 2008 3:48 AM EST
Posted by boatdocster at 12:07 AM : Mar 04, 2008


All great points!

Reply to this comment
by sumarongi March 4, 2008 4:59 AM EST
Rice and Bush are both members of the Liar''s club
Reply to this comment
by sumarongi March 4, 2008 5:00 AM EST
Rice is incapable of negotiating a rubber duck out of a toilet. She fits right in with the Bush circus as one of the clowns.
Reply to this comment
by ramos937 March 4, 2008 7:36 AM EST
""I continue to believe that they can get to a deal by the end of the year if everyone''s got the will to do it," Rice said."

The problem is that not everyone has the will to do it. All it takes is for one or more hothead from either side to conduct raids againist the other and any agreement is out the window.

Israel was "born" in 1948. Since then Israel and the Arab states have been at war with the PLO also againist Israel. The earliest President I remember actually trying to help peace there is Carter, Reagan did not get too involved nor did the first Bush, Clinton tried very hard. The second Bush virtually ignored this conflict until this past year. Now it is way too late.

I also question our effectiveness in this area given the Iraq quaqmire. Because of the Iraq war, this administration does not have the influence it needs to have to be effective. The next President may or may not be able to cure this. I hope so.
Reply to this comment
by brianbwb-2009 March 4, 2008 8:25 AM EST
Rice should be very quiet, hoping she can somehow duck past our reckoning with the war criminals, of which she is one.

Rice Calling for peace in the middle East is like Goebbels calling for peace, not a whole lot of credibility for Bush''s main propagandist.
Reply to this comment
by bluestardad March 4, 2008 8:38 AM EST
THIS IS NOT IN AMERICAN NATIONAL INTEREST.

RICE IS SO INCOMPETENT THAT THE 911 COMMISSION EVEN SAID SO.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT AMERICA NEEDS.

AMERICA DOES NEED TO THROW OUT ALL THE DUEL PASSPORT ISRAELI NEOCONS FROM AMERICAN POLITICS.

60 YEARS OF FIGHTING OVER ROCKS IS ENOUGH.

AMERICA STAND UP OR SHUT UP!
Reply to this comment
by juwboy March 4, 2008 8:44 AM EST
A Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza was proposed in a 1947 United Nations resolution which partitioned the League of Nations British Palestine Mandate.

Immediately after the Palestininan state''s creation in 1948, Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed the West Bank in violation of international law.

The new Palestinian state was strangled at birth by Egypt and Jordan.

Egypt and Jordan then had 19 years from 1948 to 1967 to restore the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians.

If an independent state for the Palestians is so d@mn important why didn''t Egypt and Jordan let them have one?
Reply to this comment
by searcher911 March 4, 2008 9:25 AM EST
It''s democracy at work. The Palestinians voted for Hamas (the party of rockets and bombs for Israel). Now they are being held responsible for that choice. They should be happy, didn''t they get what they voted for?
Reply to this comment
by Abrahamowour March 4, 2008 9:58 AM EST
i think israel is right to defend their citizen from this killers in the name of jihad.why is it that when the israels kill the hamas it becomes an issue and when the hamas kill the israel to the islams its okay? Rice was right when she said that the hamas rebels are not ready for peace and i think they will never be ready at any given time so the israels should just deal with them once and for all.
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:12 AM EST
Anyone who thinks the Palestinians will meekly accept occupation and slaughter by the Israelis is deluded.
Reply to this comment
by bobacorn March 4, 2008 10:14 AM EST
The Israelis are up to their knees in dead and injured Palestinian children.
Reply to this comment
by missingamerica March 4, 2008 10:20 AM EST
...so the israels should just deal with them once and for all.

Posted by rcbodo at 06:58 AM : Mar 04, 2008

Are you advocating that the Israelis commit...genocide?
Reply to this comment
by bobacorn March 4, 2008 10:22 AM EST
singinrick - You are the nutjob.

Anybody who justifies the Israeli''s indiscriminate killing of civilians is the possessor of a very hard heart. It''s time to lay off the salt, okay.
Reply to this comment
by bobacorn March 4, 2008 10:23 AM EST
singinrick - Did you get me? Lay off the salt bud !
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:23 AM EST
singinrick - You are the nutjob.

Anybody who justifies the Israeli''''s indiscriminate killing of civilians is the possessor of a very hard heart. It''''s time to lay off the salt, okay.


Posted by bobacorn at 07:22 AM : Mar 04, 2008

Salt? Or too many verses of "Onward Christian Soldiers"?
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:44 AM EST
Rice told reporters in Cairo. "They sow instability, that is what Hamas is doing."

It is hard to imagine this being said with a straight face after this administration''s actions in the middle east......
Reply to this comment
by i_am_emac March 4, 2008 10:44 AM EST
well how long is israel supposed to put up with being attacked? How many concessions must they make?
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:51 AM EST
well how long is israel supposed to put up with being attacked? How many concessions must they make?

Posted by i_am_emac at 07:44 AM : Mar 04, 2008

As long as Israel perpetuates its apartheid against the Palestinians, it will be attacked.

Why would anyone expect the Palestinians to do otherwise?

I know that I surely would never meekly accept occupation by another country .
Reply to this comment
by jwind11 March 4, 2008 10:52 AM EST
Anyone who thinks the Palestinians will meekly accept occupation and slaughter by the Israelis is deluded.

Posted by formrusmcsgt at 07:12 AM : Mar 04, 2008

you are an idiot
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:55 AM EST
Anyone who thinks the Palestinians will meekly accept occupation and slaughter by the Israelis is deluded.

Posted by formrusmcsgt at 07:12 AM : Mar 04, 2008

you are an idiot

Posted by jwind11 at 07:52 AM : Mar 04, 2008

And if you would meekly accept ocupation by another country you are, by definition, a coward.
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 10:56 AM EST
-Anyone who thinks the "Palestinians"(a term created for propaganda purposes....just another term for Muslim Arabs) will meekly accept peace as opposed to their global jihad intentions and slaughter of innocence around the globe including Israel in the name of Islam is deluded.

Posted by singinrick at 07:53 AM : Mar 04, 2008

A pretty safe statement to make considering that Israel doesn''t want peace and, that being the case, you will never be proven wrong.....
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 11:01 AM EST
Posted by singinrick at 07:58 AM : Mar 04, 2008

You can put up what you wish, but the fact remains that you condone the slaughter of innocent civilians as long as the victims are Muslims.

It''s as plain to all as the nose on your face, rick.
Reply to this comment
by antoniof123 March 4, 2008 11:01 AM EST
The acts of desperation have started to set in and now Bush, Cheney, Rice, and the rest of the neo cons are looking down the barrel of history.

They wasted years in a vanity war and now they want peace. They had their chance now it is being taking away from them by the very people who gave them their chance.

A bad slave is punished by his master and these people are public servants this means master/slave relationship.

I wonder if they get that they are the slaves.
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 11:03 AM EST
That''''s what the "Palestinians" Muslim Jihadists think oh blind one.

Posted by singinrick at 08:00 AM : Mar 04, 2008

Muslims hating Christians is worse than Christians hating Muslims, eh?

You are the consumate hypocrite, preacherman.
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 11:05 AM EST
-And the fact remains you''''re delusional if you think that. But I already knew that. Just like I already know you condone the killing of innocent Israelis as long as your pals you support the jihadists are killing them

Posted by singinrick at 08:03 AM : Mar 04, 2008

Occupiers face a price for their actions. You expect the Palestinians to accept apartheid and slaughter from Israel.

Why should they?

You would not.
Reply to this comment
by old300d March 4, 2008 11:08 AM EST
Blames Hamas?!?!?!

Her and GWB are the ones that put them in power ! ! !

What did she think they would do ??????????????????????

She is either really dumb of she thinks we are really dumb !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply to this comment
by mcvet March 4, 2008 11:09 AM EST
-I don''''t hate Muslims. I hate the ideology of jihad that is killing innocent people around the globe. You can hate a religion but not hate people stupid.

But you hate the Israelis anyhow, so your double standards are shining yet again.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by singinrick at 08:05 AM : Mar 04, 2008
+ report abuse

You don''t have a clue do you sparky. You are just there to drink the Kool Aid and pass along the spin for the Fuhrer!! ROFLMAO I can''t say which scares me MORE, the Muslim Extremist or these "Christian" Extremist. The ONLY difference I really see in them is One is more prone to terror at this point in their history. Course that doesn''t mean that Christian Identity isn''t taking notes. Sieg Heil and Amen
Reply to this comment
by formrusmcsgt March 4, 2008 11:10 AM EST
But you hate the Israelis anyhow, so your double standards are shining yet again.

Posted by singinrick at 08:05 AM : Mar 04, 2008

I do not hate anyone, including Israelis, rick.

Despising their policies and hating them are two very different things.
Reply to this comment
by lfitts1 March 4, 2008 11:11 AM EST
A pretty safe statement to make considering that Israel doesn''''t want peace and, that being the case, you will never be proven wrong.....

Posted by formrusmcsgt

I hate to confuse you with the facts but...How many times have the Israelis said they were going to "drive the arabs into the sea"--never, the reverse--often. Is is Israel sworn intent to destroy the state of anyone--NO, Hamas--Yes. Hamas aims rockets specifically at civilians. Their "suicide bombers" aim at "soft targets"--children, women, civilians. Israel retaliates at military targets that Hamas mixes into the population--you give Hamas a free pass and you blame the Israelis--your logic is no longer suspect..given the choice I''ll take my chances with the Israelis as an ally--you make your own choice
Reply to this comment
by mcvet March 4, 2008 11:12 AM EST
Yet Another failure of what has been a complete failure, the Bush Administration. I wonder, if you were to start a list of all the excuses and blame passed out by these losers, how long the list would be. It''s one thing to get your butt whooped but these losers have brought the art to a new high.
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