Patriot Act Loses Appeal

U.S. Appeals Court Upholds Ruling That Portions Of Act Are Unconstitutionally Vague

(AP)  A federal appeals court ruled that some portions of the U.S. Patriot Act that govern dealings with foreign terrorist organizations are unconstitutional because the language is too vague to be understood by an ordinary person.

The ruling released Monday by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco affirms a 2005 decision by a lower court judge.

That judge, Audrey Collins, ruled on a petition seeking to clear the way for U.S. groups and individuals to assist organizations in Turkey and Sri Lanka with training on applying for disaster relief or conducting peace negotiations.

Collins said language in the Patriot Act was vague on matters involving training, expert advice or assistance, personnel and service to foreign terrorist organizations.

Without clear language, the plaintiffs argued, those who provide assistance to those organizations could be subject to U.S. prison terms of up to 15 years.

Charles Miller, a U.S. Justice Department spokesman, said his agency was reviewing Monday's ruling to determine a response.

Collins' ruling prevented the federal government from enforcing the vague Patriot Act provisions as they apply to the terrorist groups named in the lawsuit.

In its 27-page decision, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals held that to survive a vagueness challenge, a statute "must be sufficiently clear to put a person of ordinary intelligence on notice that his or her contemplated conduct is unlawful."

The language covered by the ruling remained unconstitutionally vague despite Congressional amendments to the Patriot Act meant to remedy the problems, the appeals court ruled.

[adventurepa]

The Patriot act is the worst piece of garbage ever put on the American people.
It took away your rights and gave unlimited power to have a police state.
All parts of this law should be banned from ever being passed again.

[hillaryin08]

I''ll bet you can find illegal immigrants getting free health care easier than someone who has been abused by the patriot act!

[afmca]

THEmagic07 - get rid of bullets 1 through 3 and you have a post that allows for debate, otherwise you lower yourself to Repub propaganda.

The Patriot Act was designed by the worst administration in US history during a time when fear ran amuck. Bush, Cheney, and the neo-cons played upon American bigotry and ignorance to try to gut the Constitution so they could begin there agenda of making anything they would do in the future non-accountable. They used a Repub Congress that disregarded their Constitutional duties to advise and consent along with Demos with no backbone to get it passed. Both the courts and Congress are finally waking up and realizing the damage it has done.

I am amazed at the lemming like qualities of Repubs that would turn over rights and privileges that our ancestors fought multiple wars to protect because they are afraid of a few pseudo-Islamic terrorists. You debase us all with your fear. In 1940, Hitler would have been proud to accept you in his legion of brown shirts.

[tucano2]

The entire so-called "Patriot Act" is unconstitutional. "If the rule is no good for an extreme case then it is no good for any case".

[neoconslayer]

THEmagic07 is lying un-American scum!
He puts on Karl Rove''s lacy pink panties in the morning and then spews ignorance all over the net!
I do like the way the out and out lies, such as "Muslim''s sons are Muslims for life" balances out the unsupported *** like "He says one thing and does another". Wouldn''t it be great if the lying son of an al-Qaeda *** could give, oh, i don''t know, at least one example to support any of his claims?
Please don''t be fooled by the sub-human garbage that is THEmagic07.
Consider his ''Muslim son''s'' thinking: Perhaps he could share with us the biological processes that rob a person of their free will if the sperm cell that got them started came from a Muslim. Perhaps we''ll see THEmagic07''s work in the next issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association...

[j_liberte]

afmca - I couldn''t agree more! I''m afraid that the damage that has been done to this country can''t be undone. Repubs and Dems alike have allowed the Exec branch a blank check to do what they want.

[random_radar]

Congress should simplify the Patriot Act so everyone can understand it. Here, let me help them:

"The government can imprison, torture, and kill you for anything you say, do, or think."

See how easy that was? Why can''t everything be that simple?

[random_radar]

Does anyone read the Declaration of Independence? Here is a quote and you can look it up to see I am accurate:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. %u2014 That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, %u2014 That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."

Our government no longer operates according to the Constitution. The Declaration says that if the government isn''t doing its job of protecting our rights, we are entitled to abolish it.

That was the justification for the revolutionary war, and I would hazard to guess that if the Founding Fathers were alive today, they would be organizing a revolutionary war to replace our current government.

I believe we need to dismantle the usurper government that has taken control of our nation and return to a government of liberty that follows the Constitution. This mess was created before I was born, but now that I am here, I intend to fix it so that my children and your children can live in peace and freedom.

[andor3]

"The SF court is nortoriously ultra-liberal, with many judges educated at UC-Berkeley. "

Not true. Look it up.

"Rulings like this often get taken to another court and thrown-out or over-ruled etc."

also not true. You cannot "take it to another court" or "get overruled" in these cases. What often happens is the full court refines and sometimes disagrees with a smaller group of judges, and sometimes appeals result in a change in a decision in whole or part. It doesn''t happen as often as the corporate media makes it seem.

Especially in this case where the court is affirming a lower court decision, it is not likely to change. And in any case it stops any enforcement of the parts of the act found unconstitutional, which is a good thing.

[gunownerdan]

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny."
-- Thomas Paine

[gunownerdan]

"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed with any lesser effort."
-- President John F. Kennedy, January 29, 1961

[thgdriver]

The Patriot Act was designed by the worst administration in US history during a time when fear ran a muck. Bush, Chaney, and the neo-cons played upon American bigotry and ignorance to try to gut the Constitution
Posted by afmca

Your whole post would make some sense if the Demonrats that have controlled Congress for over a year now repealed it. They have done nothing, so to blame the current admin. and the past GOP Congress is old news.

[gunownerdan]

Didn''t Hitlery vote for the patriot act? I know she voted for the Iraq war.
Many democrats are neocons in disguise.

[gunownerdan]

I bet if the government bans self defense, they will call if the "Protecting Americans Act".

[bareemperor]

The writers of the Patriot Act burned the Constitution.

[thgdriver]

The government has their foot on the Constitution of the US. They will keep it there till the people vote them out. Thats goes for the Repubs. and Demons. The time limit on the act ran out and it was renewed so where were the voters? We must get our rights back!!!

[hillaryin08]

Liberals, If you were captured would you rather be

A. Water Boarded
B. Have your head cut off on national TV
C. Made to watch Algors movie?

Algore, Kerry and Murtha all got water boarded by the democrat party so whats the big deal?

[aye1spy]

thgdriver - "Your whole post would make some sense if the Demonrats that have controlled Congress for over a year now repealed it. They have done nothing, so to blame the current admin. and the past GOP Congress is old news."

I hear a good deal of this nonsense. And it is just that. Utter and complete nonsense. The majority of America, as represented by a Democratically controlled congress, cannot pass or repeal anything without a veto-proof majority, which they don''t have, because Bush (in his wisdom which is so much greater than that of the nation for whom he is supposed to work, but at whom he instead thumbs his nose) is now vetoing anything and everything which rubs him the wrong way. In fact, merely by sitting on their hands in the senate and refusing to vote cloture, the discredited minority Republicans can keep the legistlation we want from even coming to the floor.

Don''t blame the train. Blame the saboteurs who are tearing up the tracks.

[tngreen]

"Patriot Act Loses Appeal"

I''m sorry, was there a time during which it had any appeal to lose? Everybody in my crowd recognized it as the anti-American, fascist power grab it always was. One of those pieces of legislation where you know that the people who crafted it were writing their mea culpa speech at the same time, for delivery in a few years when the knucklehead voters figured out what it was really about.

[infidel_us]

OMG....the 9th CIRCUS court!!! This whole article has immediately lost all credibility. Why would CBS even bother to print it?????

[rowdytexan2]

Yes, the language is vague, and the original writing of it was so edited for the purpose of being vague...

...especially the part about search warrants. When it was originally written, it said search warrants for premises outside the United States. When it was passed, the ''outside the United States'' wasn''t in there. They now have a right to come onto your property anytime they want to. All they have to do is say that you are a suspected terrorist, without any proof that you are, in fact, one. Terrorist is a very broad piece of terminology.

Unfortunately, most people don''t know where to go to see the legislation until it is actually passed and signed.

[feelfree1]

Re: "That Portions Of Act Are Unconstitutionally Vague"

Anyone involved in crafting this fascistic act or for voting it into law, should face a lengthy prison sentence so that they can consider their dismal failure at defending and protecting our Constitution.

[gramto7]

Your whole post would make some sense if the Demonrats that have controlled Congress for over a year now repealed it. They have done nothing, so to blame the current admin. and the past GOP Congress is old news.
Posted by thgdriver
Thgdriver:
Try to keep up! The Democratic Congress may have been voted in a year ago November, but they did not take office until January. Therefore, it has not been "over a year" that they have been in office.

If the dam.ned republican twerps in Congress would actually do what is needed for this country instead of for their ''party'', we might actually get cra.p like the patriot act and military commisions act repealed.

[Krazcarl]

You mistook me for someone that cared that''s how all this trash gets through in the first place we weren''t duped we just didn''t care.

[antoniof123]

Dumb neocons you are about as dumb as they come if only is good in the business world and even then it is suspect. Go back to school in this day and age you need more than a 3rd grade education. Of course the inbreeds that you are won''t help either.

[omega39-2009]

The 9th court is controlled by Libs, which means the ruling is considered junk by other courts.
Posted by verifyuser at 03:12 PM : Dec 11, 2007

OMG....the 9th CIRCUS court!!! This whole article has immediately lost all credibility. Why would CBS even bother to print it?????

Posted by Infidel_Us

Instead of attacking the courts why don''t you whiners attack the boobs that hastily wrote a poorly worded bill and the flim-flam man that signed it into law? As I recall, the so called "conservative" USSC recently over-ruled a "military commission act" that was structured the same way.

[gunownerdan]

Protecting the rights of even the least individual among us is basically the only excuse the government has for even existing.
Ronald Reagan

Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.
Ronald Reagan

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn''t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
Ronald Reagan

Government''s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
Ronald Reagan

Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.
Ronald Reagan

[gunownerdan]

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny."
-- Thomas Paine

[clestes-2009]

Except for the Supreme court and the massive debt, both of which will haunt us for decades, by 2012 we may be rid of Bush''s unconstitutional laws.

Wouldn''t that be great! Going back to following the Founding Fathers ideas, based on the Constitution. Bush will become just a bad dream, fading over time.

[carlad1958]

Thank you gunownerdan. Your quotes, attributed to Reagan and Thomas Paine, are basic truths that people seem to have forgotten.

[sgtrds]

"Patriot Act Loses Appeal"

It never appealed to me, or any other real American, in the first place. It is without a doubt the most unconstitutional grab for power in American history. It legalizes dictatorship and Bush is grabbing for all of the power he can under it. Hell it''s the only law he even pretends to obey!

[gce651]

Dan:
Someone else wrote all those great little one-liners for Reagan. Reagan ran up the national debt by massive military spending that we''re still paying for today, 20 yrs later. Reagan also died senile and not knowing his dork from a pickle,a fitting end to the Republican uber-lord.

[aye1spy]

More global ignorance:

If you listen to the Reagan quote below or to Bush or even to Hillary, you hear that it is the duty of the government or of the president him(her)self, to "Protect the United States" or to "Protect the people of the United States." Hogwash.

Here is the presidential oath of office"

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

What is supposed to be protected? Lands? People? Power? Influence? NO! "...THE CONSTITUTION of the United States!"

Here is your homework, class: Write a 500-word essay on how an elected official can protect THE CONSTITUION. Guns and war scenarios need not be submitted. Such will receive an automatic "F" for intellectual laziness.

[macusweil]

The traitorous "patriot" act is an assault on our freedom & liberties and should be scrapped in it entirety. Repeal the law and start over looking a what if anything we really need and do it without stomp our hard fought civil liberties, right to privacy etc.

It was a knee jerk reaction by a bunch of preoccupied congressional hacks and under extreme pressure from the loonies over at the White House.

[bareemperor]

In today''s world, what we need is an awareness of terrorism and terrorists. The Patriot Act was written by totalitarian extremists - the ''other terrorists'' - who are offended by the existing Constitution and those who defend it... We don''t need to abolish our own rights to be aware of those who wish to dissolve them.

[infidel_us]

So, according to the Washington Post, Pelosi and other libs were briefed on waterboarding, European CIA detention centes, etc., back in 2002. And they said NOTHING.

Now they''re complaining!? What utter hypocrisy!!!!! Those members of congress need to be INVESTIGATED!!!!!

[forthepeopl1]

to aye1spy- the only anwser to your question is this.

we the people of the united states of america, do here-buy state the follow.

congress your fired,do not pass go, just go to jail.
same go''s to all in whitehouse.

and as it states in our constituion we the people will start over with a new governemnt for the people and by the people.

[kansas1946]

Patriot Act Loses Appeal
****************************

Heck, it never appealed to me! In fact, I think it is a classic example of an oxymoron. It is the antithesis of patriotism.

[Krazcarl]

Vague that explains the man that came up with it...

[bozworth4]

You know I believe the Constitution is unconstitutionally vague to our elected public servants. Remember they are public servants, not public leaders, kings etc: except fpr King George the second.

[p-syrus]

First Order of Business for a Newly Elected Democratic House, Senate & President: DUMP ALL PROVISIONS OF THE "PATRIOT" ACT.

That was a gross intrusion into the rights of free american citizens and should never have been contemplated much less enacted. It was proposed & intended as a gift to unscrupulous prosecutors.

[homjett]

Since there has to be a review every six months, so there is no misuse of the patriot act, how many folks have had their rights abused to date. None that I have heard of. Actually, if a poll was taken, my guess very few no anything about the Act, nor been affected by it. I dread to think what will happen when the Libs repeal it.

[sgtrds]

I dread to think what will happen when the Libs repeal it.

Posted by homjett at 11:02 PM : Dec 11, 2007

Why in the world would you dread a return to our government being run by our Constitution and laws?

[watcher269-2009]

I dread to think what will happen when the Libs repeal it.

Posted by homjett at 11:02 PM : Dec 11, 2007

------

That''s right! We''ll be a FREE country again! A Free America, for the time being. Repubilcans have always meant War and Debt while Democrats favor the opposite. Wow - Where do you stand?

Then we need to rid our selves of the Christian Commies we have trying to take over America.

[b-easy63]

This is a hoot!! Even if the language is clarified, those who were caught when the language was vague could not be charged and should not be held. Because they could argue that they did not know what they did was against the law then, no matter how clear the law is now. Ex post facto (after the fact--trying to perform mental calisthenics with terrorism is not a good thing--either we really want to catch the bad guys to validate the war on terrorism or we just want to catch anyone and pretend they are the primary targets of the war on terrorism...)

[b-easy63]

None that I have heard of.
Posted by homjett at 11:02 PM : Dec 11, 2007


You must be on drugs--thousands of Americans have had their trips cancelled due to being on no flight list for being quakers, peace activists etc. That is a life disruption.

At least 3 Americans have been held, renditioned and detained FOR YEARS without benefit of council or able to see their families. Some claim to have been tortured. Padilla is one of those. WE were told the act would not harm or apply to American citizens because they had the right to due process. Not any more, Bush received the right to treat any American caught in the snares like any other enemy combatant.

The man in Florida who was treated that way was later acquitted. NIce. Doesn''t change the fact he claims he was tortured or the 2 years he was not in his family''s life.

Of course this affects ordinary Americans. You just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or talking to the wrong person, or sending money to the wrong charity or sitting beside a suspect, or blogging and saying the wrong things or taking a flier at a rally and get it caught on tape....on and on and on. Stop being an idiot--your mentality is why gas is over 3.00/gal, the dollar has tanked, and our grandkids will not only be paying for this war, they will euthanize you and every other old boomer''s azz to keep from being burdened with giving you social security and taking 90% of their checks....

[bobmarisol]

One comment said "Democrats have 2008 in the bag" -- as a lifelong Democrat, I am not so sure. We won Congress b/c of how things were going in Iraq. But since we took power, our Congress has gotten little if anything done. We are still in the war, and despite our efforts to surrender in Iraq, the Republicans have turned the war around and now the USA is winning -- THIS IS BAD FOR US AS DEMOCRATS BECAUSE NOW THE REPUBLICANS WILL GET CREDIT FOR WINNING THE WAR AND WE WILL BE SEEN AS WEAK IN THE WAR ON TERROR. I am afraid we have convinced the American people to vote Republican even though many people dont like Bush.

[omega39-2009]

One comment said "Democrats have 2008 in the bag" -- as a lifelong Democrat, I am not so sure. We won Congress b/c of how things were going in Iraq. But since we took power, our Congress has gotten little if anything done. We are still in the war, and despite our efforts to surrender in Iraq, the Republicans have turned the war around and now the USA is winning -- THIS IS BAD FOR US AS DEMOCRATS BECAUSE NOW THE REPUBLICANS WILL GET CREDIT FOR WINNING THE WAR AND WE WILL BE SEEN AS WEAK IN THE WAR ON TERROR. I am afraid we have convinced the American people to vote Republican even though many people dont like Bush.

Posted by bobmarisol

Well gee Bob, for a "lifelong Democrat" you sure squeal like a Republican pig.

[gunownerdan]

"Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed with any lesser effort."
-- President John F. Kennedy, January 29, 1961