Sudan Convicts Brit Over "Muhammad" Bear

Teacher Gets 15 Days In Prison, Deportation For Letting Students Name Teddy Bear

(CBS/AP)  British teacher Gillian Gibbons has been convicted of inciting religious hatred for letting her pupils name a teddy bear Muhammad and sentenced to 15 days in prison and deportation from Sudan, one of her defense lawyers said Thursday.

"The judge found Gillian Gibbons guilty and sentenced her to 15 days jail and deportation," said Ali Mohammed Hajab, a member of her defense team.

Robert Boulos, director of the Unity High School where Gibbons taught, noted that since she had already spent five days in prison, she would have to serve only 10 more.

"It's a very fair verdict, she could have had six months and lashes and a fine, and she only got 15 days and deportation," Boulos said. He added that the verdict would not be appealed.

Gibbons is expected to serve her sentence in the Omdurman women's prison near Khartoum.

Gibbons, 54, was arrested Sunday after complaints to the Education Ministry that she had insulted Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in Islam, by applying his name to a toy animal.

The maximum penalty for the charge, which has attracted world wide attention was 40 lashes and six months in prison.

The case sparked tensions between Sudan and Britain, the country's former colonial ruler. British Foreign Secretary David Miliband was meeting Thursday with Sudan's ambassador to inquire about the case.

Sudan is already facing international scorn and charges of war crimes in Darfur, where the government is waging a brutal fight against non-Muslim rebels, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth.

Officials at the Unity High School, a private school where Gibbons teaches, say the teddy bear was part of a class project to teach her 7-year-old pupils about animals. She asked the students to name the bear and they chose the name Muhammad, a common name among Muslim men.

Each child was allowed to take the bear home on weekends and write a diary about what they did with it. The diary entries were collected in a book with the bear's picture on the cover, labeled, "My Name is Muhammad," according to the school director, Robert Boulos.

But some parents complained, accusing Gibbons of insulting the Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in Islam, by applying his name to a toy animal, the officials say. Gibbons, 54, was arrested Sunday. The school, which has about 750 students from elementary through high school, most from affluent Sudanese Muslim families, has been closed since.

Sudan's top Muslim clerics on Wednesday demanded the government punish her, saying she intentionally insulted the prophet and comparing her action to the "blasphemies" of author Salman Rushdie. Hard-liners have considerable weight in the government of President Omar al-Bashir, which came to power in a 1989 military coup that touted itself as creating an Islamic state.

Gibbons' chief defense lawyer Kamal Djizouri scuffled with police in the tight cordon around the courthouse before he was allowed in. He briefly came out to say the proceedings were postponed for half an hour as the plaintiff had not yet shown up. He said he still did not know who the plaintiff was.

Djizouri told The Associated Press he would argue her case on the basis of Islamic Sharia law to show there was "absolutely no intention to insult religion, and for blasphemy to take place there must be an insult."

"There is a very big difference between the holy character of Prophet Muhammad and the name Muhammad given to a person," he said, pointing out that it is the most widespread first name in the Arab world. "When somebody is named Muhammad by his parents and then turns out to be a thief, is it an insult to religion to say, 'That Muhammad is a thief'? Of course not."

Hearings in Sudan are usually public, but the cordon barred entry, including to British diplomats who had come to observe. "It's up to the judge, but from a consular point of view, we would like to be present," British Consul Russell Philipps said amid a crowd of about 100 people, mostly media, trying to get in.

Episcopalian Bishop Ezekiel Kondo, Gibbons' employer, also barred, said he was there "as a witness to testify that she never intended to insult any religion." He denied reports that the school had fired Gibbons.

Sudan's Foreign Ministry has sought to play down the case, and the embassy in London initially predicted she would not be charged. Embassy spokesman Khalid al Mubarak said Thursday he did not expect her to be convicted.

But there were signs the case could become a rallying case for Islamic hard-liners. Wednesday evening, a pickup truck drove through Khartoum with loudspeakers calling on Sudanese to defend their religion and hold a protest Friday.

Some Muslim clerics in Khartoum now claim the teacher and the teddy bear are part of a Western plot aimed at Islam in Sudan, reports Roth.

In the first reports on the case in Sudanese papers Thursday, some articles echoing the angry statements by the clerics - though others said Gibbons should be acquitted.

The semiofficial Assembly of the Ulemas, or Islamic clerics, said Wednesday that Gibbon's action was "another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam" - citing Rushdie and insulting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad run in European newspapers.

The British novelist was accused of blasphemy by many Muslims for his 1988 novel "The Satanic Verses," which had a character seen as a reference to the prophet. Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a religious edict calling for Rushdie's death.

The north of Sudan bases its legal code on Islamic Sharia law, and President al-Bashir often seeks to burnish his religious credentials.

Last year, he vowed to lead a jihad, or holy war, against U.N. peacekeepers if they deployed in the Darfur region of western Sudan. He relented this year to allow a U.N.-African Union force there - but this month said he would bar Scandinavian peacekeepers from participating because newspapers in their countries ran the cartoons.

[b-easy63]

There are a lot of things people do in their homelands that we, Americans would not approve of and do not allow to happen over here. We do not allow the killing and eating of monkey meat. We do not allow religious rites involving animal slaughter in people''s front yards. We do not allow people to sell or give their children away at the age of 5 or 6 to old men for marriage or worse. This is OUR culture so we get to say--and as many people say--if immigrants don''t like our rules they can leave. Our rules may not make sense to anyone but us and countries like us--but to live here, others must respect that this is the way that it is.

This British woman is in another country. She must abide by, respect and appreciate the necessity of following THEIR rules. As outsiders, we may think their rules are barbaric or crazy or evil--but many point to our teenage promiscuity, murder and racial hatred rate and see and judge us similarly. I do think the sentence is harsh. But I also think this woman needs not to be in the Sudan if she cannot learn to respect, reflect and obey their customs and mores.

[b-easy63]

If someone came to our country and did things expressly forbidden or disrespectful--most on these boards would condemn them in a hot second. That is the way these people are. It is still their country (for the moment) so if we don''t like it--we can stay out--and if foreigners go there to teach, preach or cheat--if they fvck up---then lashes and prison time might be their next experience. This is their rule--in their land--if we can''t abide by them (no matter how evil or stupid we think their rules are) we need to keep our azzes at home.

It does not take a genius to understand Muslims appreciation and fervor for their Prophet. One would have thought a person who is intrepid enough to teach Muslim children would be more circumspect. Finally, no American or Englishman should ever think (former colony or not) that they can impose foreign rules on a sovereign nation. We may not like their rules--but it is their country--and if we don''t like it--well...we (and she) can always go home where the rules and laws are more to our liking. She needs to learn their ways BEFORE attempting to teach there. The same goes for any other country. The West does not own the world--nor does the world need to change to suit the West.

[dgermenis]

There are probably some dogs named "Jesus", but Christians didn''t cause a big stink about that.

[dmhphils]

Some Muslim clerics in Khartoum now claim the teacher and the teddy bear are part of a Western plot aimed at Islam in Sudan, reports Roth.
-------------------------------------------------

I think that''s right....I think the bear is working for the CIA and the bear should get 400 lashes too.

Sometimes you just have to tell people, Hey, you are messed up and what you believe is all messed up. Get a grip on reality somewhere quick.

This is a disease!

[prinzowhales]

Just one more reason to dispise religious ''authorities''...

[klingon69]

When are these people going to realize that actions like these do nothing but turn the world against them and their beliefs. Between this, the incident with the doctors and nurses, Rushdie, the Muhammad cartoons...etc, the world must be getting tired of these idiots. When will people learn that religion is nothing more than an enslavement. Seek the truth, and it will set you free.

[klingon69]

This British woman is in another country. She must abide by, respect and appreciate the necessity of following THEIR rules. As outsiders, we may think their rules are barbaric or crazy or evil--but many point to our teenage promiscuity, murder and racial hatred rate and see and judge us similarly. I do think the sentence is harsh. But I also think this woman needs not to be in the Sudan if she cannot learn to respect, reflect and obey their customs and mores.
Posted by b-easy63 at 09:17 AM : Nov 29, 2007

With thes war-torn regions(been happening for centuries in some areas), there is a shortage of qualified indigenous educators. Continued abuses of peoples that come to help is not helping their cause.

[klingon69]

Finally, no American or Englishman should ever think (former colony or not) that they can impose foreign rules on a sovereign nation. We may not like their rules--but it is their country--and if we don''''t like it--well...we (and she) can always go home where the rules and laws are more to our liking. She needs to learn their ways BEFORE attempting to teach there. The same goes for any other country. The West does not own the world--nor does the world need to change to suit the West.
Posted by b-easy63 at 09:19 AM : Nov 29, 2007

No, and we should not our rules on any other sovereign nation, however with that being said, many of these countries tend to get confessions through torture. And to not allow her own countrymen to enter to try and acheive a diplomatic solution, is not right. My question is, whast will happen to these children and even the others in these areas, when NOBODY cares anymore to try and help?

[b-easy63]

With thes war-torn regions(been happening for centuries in some areas), there is a shortage of qualified indigenous educators. Continued abuses of peoples that come to help is not helping their cause.

Posted by Klingon69 at 09:54 AM : Nov 29, 2007


So they suffer, and their kids suffer. And we mind our own business and we do business (and help)somewhere else. That is the trouble with having a busybody mentality. For the busybody, it quickly escalates from helping to mentoring and then to presumed ownership of other countries (or at least we think we can tell them what to do and how to do it and when). For the recipient, it quickly changes from our "gift" of help to an expectation and our obligation--so the appreciation factor leaves and we have acquired a burden and not a choice for volunteerism.

The "cure" is to help just enough for people to help themselves--then get the fvck out and expect no thank you or appreciation in return. In short, help because we want to and not because we want to be seen or remembered or praised for helping. To help--we don''t teach their children--We teach and train the indigenous people to teach their own children. We bring them HERE, then send them back. Then we leave them ALONE until they are ready for membership in our clique/world.

[b-easy63]

Sometimes you just have to tell people, Hey, you are messed up and what you believe is all messed up. Get a grip on reality somewhere quick.
This is a disease! Posted by noseonurface at 09:41 AM : Nov 29, 2007


THEIR disease, imposed on their own people, in their own country and they all seem to be fine with it--it is when outsiders come in that it all changes. As long as they don''t export it--what is it to us--why do we think everyone should see and operate in the world like us?

[b-easy63]

When are these people going to realize that actions like these do nothing but turn the world against them and their beliefs. Posted by Klingon69 at 09:51 AM : Nov 29, 2007

Here is truth: They will learn it about the time WE learn that the common denominator in this and Iraq and Bulgaria is US going in to their lands and expecting THEIR land to operate, kow tow to and reflect our culture and perspective. Why should it?
Do we know what ethnocentrism is? It is when one culture believes they, and their ways are superior to all other cultures. In the extreme, the ethno. culture tries to impose itself and ways on other cultures--certain in the belief that the other ways should die out and their ways prevail.
WHETHER IT IS INSURGENTS, FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS, ETC--THERE WOULD BE NO INCIDENTS, NO STRIFE AND NO CONFLICT IF WE DID NOT GO THERE.

Each time, the West is going into these countries, not liking the local rules--so we flout, ignore and want to change them--then the rest of our countrymen agree. Why exactly should any country change to suit foreigners? How should America change to suit all the foreigners in her midst? How about beggars--good way to end welfare? Should we cover all bare skin to cut down on our child and female rape victim problem? Get rid of all guns? Or is it that everyone else must change, while we continue merrily along?

[b-easy63]

We seem to think we have the right to be, go and work where ever we like and the rest of the world must accept, accommodate and adapt to us--and yet--when people come here with that attitude, we are quick to attack and want them kicked out. Like I said--if you don''t like the rules in a foreign land, instead of trying to change a culture --change yourself and adapt or go home to live the way you wish--what should not be an option, is imposing OUR mores or ideas on others. To each his own and stay out of their land.

[b-easy63]

"No, and we should not our rules on any other sovereign nation, however with that being said, many of these countries tend to get confessions through torture." Posted by Klingon69 at 09:58 AM : Nov 29, 2007

Well, if they suspect her of being a terrorist, I''m sure that at least 30% of Americans will agree than, that torture for her is appropriate.

"And to not allow her own countrymen to enter to try and acheive a diplomatic solution, is not right.Posted by Klingon69 at 09:58 AM : Nov 29, 2007"

Again, if they suspect her of subversive behavior, she should not have the right to consul or see anyone--it is what WE have decided to do to people in the same boat (ie., a foreigner doing objectionable/questionable things)

We treat people the way we want to be treated right? so if it is okay for the people we catch--then in other countries it is okay for the people who catch us. If we don''t like the rules in other countries we can stay out and if we don''t want to be mistreated we can stay out--or not mistreat others.

[b-easy63]

"My question is, whast will happen to these children and even the others in these areas, when NOBODY cares anymore to try and help?Posted by Klingon69 at 09:58 AM : Nov 29, 2007

They will survive or not--just like they have long before America or even England existed. The kids will grow up, subsist or find a way--and you and I will be none the wiser. Certainly, they will fare better than they would if we really helped and decided to bomb them into Democracy--plus it would hurt a lot less if we stayed home. Stop acting like our job is to save, convert or re-invent the world. It isn''t. We are neither stewards, rich uncles or owners of this world. We are just members like everyone else--it is time we acted like we belonged to it--instead of acting like the world belongs to us.

[toolmangler-2009]

If you are in another country and break one of their ''laws'' unkowingly. if there has been no personal harm the lawbreaker should be warnd and/or fined, not physically harmed themselves. They could have said, "This is not permissable, stop it now", I would have no problem with that.


At the Emmy awards, Kathy Griffin''s acceptance speech said, "A lot of people come up here and thank Jesus for this award. I want you to know that no one had less to do with this award than Jesus." She went on to say,"Suck it, Jesus. This is my God now!" referring to the Emmy.

As a Christian, I am offended by her hate speech.
What do you think might have happened if she had made the hate
speech against Muhammed????
Kathy Griffin has the right as an American to say what she thinks. Muslims can''t

[ladyjaneg]

It is astonishing how people who think they are promoting their religion can do so much damage to it. For years I studied Islam and defended the relgiion. The likes of the Islamic fundamentalists such as those in the Sudan have made this impossible.




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Posted by fsw3

I know what you mean. I''ve stopped trying.

[radiob-2009]

The nation that is responsible for the deaths of over 200,000 of its citizens along with over 2 million displaced wants to try this woman for naming a teddy bear Muhammad. Priorities in what age the dark ages?

[toolmangler-2009]

"My question is, whast will happen to these children and even the others in these areas, when NOBODY cares anymore to try and help?
Posted by Klingon69 at 09:58 AM : Nov 29, 2007


except for religious edicts there are no laws that make America the worlds baby sitter. or policeman.

[radiob-2009]

Kathy Griffin has the right as an American to say what she thinks. Muslims can''''t



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Posted by ToolMangler

Regardless of how poor taste it is to make such comments or at the inappropiate venue we as Americans have the right to say what we want, try that in any Muslim nation.

[radiob-2009]

Extremist such as this case can bang their drum loudly and what happens it turns the world away from them. No one would condone these possible punishments in the civilized world. We should never become apathetic though to the innocent who suffer under their regime to do so is to become like them.

[toolmangler-2009]

If they wish to ''flex their muscles'' at our expense, I say pull out completely and allow ''natural selection'' to rule the country for a while. Maye a more open government might rise to the surface.

[b-easy63]

Posted by ToolMangler at 10:25 AM : Nov 29, 2007

But the problem here is you assume that they want to say what they think or that other races/people would burst if they could not say horrible things. This is YOU imposing YOUR feelings on others. I was once a member of a Muslim household. I was married to a Muslim. I had a lot of Muslim friends from Malaysia, Singapore, Pakistan, Iran and the ME. I was young, idealistic and thought, like you, that the people were oppressed--esp. the women. I tried to discuss feminism with them and it nearly cost me all of my friendships and family. They attacked me verbally, they let me know what they thought of American women--that we were crass, nasty, Godless, indecent, whorish, unfeminine loud mouths with no respect for ourselves. That they LOATHED the way we behaved in our country. They made it clear that they lived here for the money and opportunity but did not want to be ''contaminated with our ways -- next post

[b-easy63]

they LOVE their role in Islam (which is that there are 2 earthly fiefdoms--females rule in the household and control day to day life (and they rule with an iron fist) but that men have the job of everything else.

It took years to finally come to terms and to accept each other and get over the disaster that was that party. (At Muslim parties, the men and women are separated) My husband also spoke to me later, explaining the nuances of Muslim culture and why the men were amused by the things I said but the women (the oppressed group--or so I thought) were up in arms. It has to do with structure and wanting it or not. I was disillusioned but my mom told me one thing--"people live their version of their lives--some want rules--some don''t. But if you try to make people live YOUR version of their life--they will never forgive you for this." we live our version in our country. They live their version in theirs. When they want our version, they can emigrate.

[skyk-2009]

But the problem here is you assume that they want to say what they think or that other races/people would burst if they could not say horrible things. This is YOU imposing YOUR feelings on others. I was once a member of a Muslim household. I was married to a Muslim. I had a lot of Muslim friends from Malaysia, Singapore, Pakistan, Iran and the ME. I was young, idealistic and thought, like you, that the people were oppressed--esp. the women. I tried to discuss feminism with them and it nearly cost me all of my friendships and family. They attacked me verbally, they let me know what they thought of American women--that we were crass, nasty, Godless, indecent, whorish, unfeminine loud mouths with no respect for ourselves. That they LOATHED the way we behaved in our country. They made it clear that they lived here for the money and opportunity but did not want to be ''''contaminated with our ways -- next post


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Posted by b-easy63 at 10:35 AM : Nov 29, 2007
+ report abuse

This is not out of the ordinary throughout history. People are taugh to dislike, even hate those who are different and you run into these problems. The solution is the same as it''s always been.... education and mutual respect.

[radiob-2009]

If they wish to ''''flex their muscles'''' at our expense, I say pull out completely and allow ''''natural selection'''' to rule the country for a while. Maye a more open government might rise to the surface.


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Posted by ToolMangler


Is this not what brought about the current crop of "leaders" in the world disguised under many veils, purchased or by force?

[skyk-2009]

Regardless of how poor taste it is to make such comments or at the inappropiate venue we as Americans have the right to say what we want, try that in any Muslim nation.


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Posted by radiob at 10:31 AM : Nov 29, 2007
+ report abuse

Once maybe.. you no longer have so many rights you once had. Maybe you THINK you have the right to say what you think but be careful, Cheney and the Gestapo are listening and watching my friend.

[b-easy63]

except for religious edicts there are no laws that make America the worlds baby sitter. or policeman.

Posted by ToolMangler at 10:29 AM : Nov 29, 2007


And yet--that is what we are trying to be, when we invade, attack and dictate without invitation or buy countries by giving them continual subsidies, nation build, and bomb people ...killing them to bring them democracy or at least, capitalism. We don''t seem to need an edict--we are the scourge of the world in many minds and absolute goddette legends of freedom in our own. We claim edict or international consensus or laws to use against some while we flout, ignore, ridicule or demean those same laws when it comes to ourselves.

[b-easy63]

We should never become apathetic though to the innocent who suffer under their regime to do so is to become like them.

Posted by radiob at 10:35 AM : Nov 29, 2007


And we should never become presumptuous enough or ethnocentric enough to think that we decide to invade and kill quite a few of them and destroy their country--to "save them" and give them "freedom".

(Yes, we know that "freedom is not free" it is also not imposed)

[nolalou]

b-easy63, I strongly disagree with your point! As the article said, Muhammad is the most popular boys name in the Islamic world! If someone named Muhammad grows up to become a thief, is it an insult to the prophet to say "Muhammad is a thief"! Of course not! Yes, when working or visiting abroad , you are subject to that counties laws, but in that case Sudan''s actions are unconscionable, and your defense of them is incredulous!

[beehive21-2009]

What BS the Muslims are creating , putting fear into you, screw em,Mo, sucks is a a killer, and creates hate thru out the world,remember if you don''t think like them your dead,( no freedom ),sorry, that don''t fly out West MO.We don''t fear you or your Robots,Mo teaches children to carry out killing of Women, Children and they like to gang rape,anything ,Sorry we do not fear you, Mo ,likes to use anything that puts them in the spotlight,TV hungry,kinda folks.huh.

[radiob-2009]

Once maybe.. you no longer have so many rights you once had. Maybe you THINK you have the right to say what you think but be careful, Cheney and the Gestapo are listening and watching my friend.


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Posted by skyk

Until the day that I am no longer able to breathe I will speak my voice regardless of consequences when it comes to our nation. And let me ask you do you honesetly believe that the expanded powers that Cheney and Bush have obtained will be reliquished by the next president or expanded by the next?

[b-easy63]

This is not out of the ordinary throughout history. People are taugh to dislike, even hate those who are different and you run into these problems. The solution is the same as it''''s always been.... education and mutual respect.

Posted by skyk at 10:38 AM : Nov 29, 2007


I agree. It is clear that the West has little respect for other cultures that contradict or challenge our views of right or wrong. The thing is--when you live in a place with different rules--you adapt and then the restrictions that we chafe at are not even noticed or cared about by those used to them. But we are on the outside and cannot appreciate that many in Islamic culture like their rules just the way they are--and resent our interference. This is the main reason for not succeeding in Iraq--the people have not embraced the Democracy , ideas or way of life we made them vote for when Bush told them we would not leave until they did.

[fibonacci_]

What a lame situation. She should have never gone to a country with such lame and superstitious laws. They do not deserve her.

[smiley676]

"the West has little respect for other cultures that contradict or challenge our views of right or wrong."

This is true, however those other cultures have little respect for our culture as well. This isn''t one-sided.
"when you live in a place with different rules--you adapt"

This is only true for people from the west, right? Because everyday we are the ones being told to be more open minded. People who move to the US are not made to adapt, they bring their own culture and force it on those of us, who just want to live our lives the way we always have.

[radiob-2009]

It is the development of a civilization that takes time, 200 years ago flogging was not uncommon in our nation. Does this excuse the punishments that are handed out by other nations for "alleged crimes" such as the poor woman in Saudia Arabia sentenced to 200 lashes for being in the company of a male and now this. I know some Muslims who would totally reject both of these cases, call them for what they are barbaric.

[b-easy63]

b-easy63, I strongly disagree with your point!
Posted by nolalou at 10:44 AM : Nov 29, 2007


Glad you know that it is a point, not my opinion. I actually have heard this particular point about Mohammed''s name and agree with you--but I also know (from experience) that if this argument was posed to a Muslim, they would not listen and in fact might physically attack you. At the very least they would kick you out of the room (that''s what happened to me)

You miss my point. It is not that what they say make sense or is right--but that this is the way it is in THEIR country and like it or not--we don''t own, rule or dictate how other people feel or think in their own countries. If we don''t like their take on things--we can always go (and should go) home.

There is a lesson for the West here--if we do not want people to come here and dictate to us how to be in America--we need to not do it in other lands. I think Americans should be required to take Anthropology or Humanities to learn about the lines of their own existence and respect for others. I think the woman should have known better or learned better before teaching--what I know is not going to happen is that the Sudan will change to accomodate this woman. Even if the gov. lets her go, there are many zealots who might kidnap her or put a bullet in her back. She should be deported and they should let it go---if they do nothing, their people will be mad at the gov.

[scurbiedog]

I cant believe the rest of the world allows this religion to continue. Most of thier punishments for offending them are crimes against humanity. Thier way of thinking is primitive at best and this religion is dangerous to the rest of the world. To stone a woman for being gang raped, beat a woman with a cane pole for alowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad, or to kill innocent men,women,and children in a "holy war" to get 72 virgins in death is absurd.
This is a religion based on the man ruling without question and him being allowed to impose his wrath when and how he sees fit no matter how repugnant it is to the more civilized world. They are no better than an accult such as the Waco Texas ordeal and they should be treated as such. We live in fear of these fanatics going nuts and blowing up something else and watch the t.v. and do nothing when they beat or kill because someone said "Muhammad sucks". Everyone should have freedom of speach without fear of death.

[toolmangler-2009]

Cheney and the Gestapo are listening and watching my friend.
Posted by skyk



I am agreeing with radiob, I will say my thoughts. If Big brother gets so scared of what I ''might'' say that he locks me up, then fine. I don''t want to live in a world as restricted as the Islamic world where I have to walk in fear.... Kill me or free me, but don''t coerce me with fear.

[b-easy63]

This is only true for people from the west, right? Because everyday we are the ones being told to be more open minded. People who move to the US are not made to adapt, they bring their own culture and force it on those of us, who just want to live our lives the way we always have.

Posted by smiley676 at 10:51 AM : Nov 29, 2007


Nope, others come here and try the same thing--but the difference is, their countries do not come here to try to bully or supercede our laws to accommodate that one citizen. I am not saying they are right--what I am saying is that is the way that it is in that country--if the woman could not learn the social customs or mores and abide by them--she should not be there--the same way we feel when people flout our mores. Should she be whipped or jailed? I don''t think so--but she should have to leave--she is in danger if she stays. If you think the government''s stance is wrong with her--it beats her being kidnapped, raped and beheaded for it. Best to go--and if she wants to help in another country--take the time to learn their customs, and perspective--they have courses for that, you know--to keep foreigners from getting themselves and their hosts hurt.

[smiley676]

"I think Americans should be required to take Anthropology or Humanities to learn about the lines of their own existence and respect for others. I think the woman should have known better or learned better before teaching"

I think the same should be true for every country then. Why do immigrants believe that they can come here and impose their rules and morals on us? You are ignorant of the way the world actually works. Americans are not any more closed minded than those in other countries.

[starleo146]

Radiob starleo here

[b-easy63]

. I know some Muslims who would totally reject both of these cases, call them for what they are barbaric.

Posted by radiob at 10:55 AM : Nov 29, 2007


I bet you do!!LOL and I also bet they live in America and think of themselves as Americans. We change no culture by challenging it. The people within a culture change it when they are tired of it and rebel against it. What is true--is that the more the outside pushes, the more the people in a country resent the outsiders and dig in--it has something to do with meddling and trying to force our version of their life on them. People DO change over time and they even slide backwards as evidenced by our desire to flog, taser, stop due process and torture--but when change is forced from the outside--people have a natural inclination to resist--no matter how much the change makes sense. People just do not like meddlers and they do not like to be forced to change or embrace what outsiders want or say-- they will resist it even under the force of an occupation.

[dan9111]

This is no different than parents who beat their children for not having proper faith. If truth requires violence, it is not truth but lies.

Further, it is so sad that we have college feminists who want to murder our American religious people, and warrior-evangelicals who want to murder homosexuals. They say so blatantly. The backwardness of this Sudan hate-policy is easily found in the USA.

[b-easy63]

cant believe the rest of the world allows this religion to continue.
Posted by scurbiedog at 10:56 AM : Nov 29, 2007

That''s the flip side of tolerance--we HAVE to allow this religion to continue. Because:


1. You can''t legislate, control or dictate belief. It did not work for the Romans, the Soviet Union or for England, China, etc-people will believe and worship as they see fit--in secrecy if they must

2. If we can tolerate and allow the KKK which also rapes and kills or Nazism or other sects that are negative, we certainly can''t disallow this one.

Question: Did you wish to disallow Catholicism and Protestantism all of these years when they were blowing up train stations, air ports and numerous civilians in the UK, and the rest of Europe?

We may not like or agree with the rules and ideas of this religion and yes, to us many aspects are not right or are barbaric--which is why we don''t belong to that religion right? But for those who do and who don''t mind those rules--you wish to ban them from being able to practice?

[smiley676]

"Nope, others come here and try the same thing--but the difference is, their countries do not come here to try to bully or supercede our laws to accommodate that one citizen."

Actually they do. It happens a lot more than you think, it just doesn''t get reported. And since you obviously only believe the things you hear in the media, you don''t believe that it happens.

The difference is, we aren''t beating someone for naming a stuffed animal.

Instead, other countries are trying to get their people out of prison in the US who have dealt drugs and murdered people here.

Why do you assume that we are the only country that doesn''t want to accept other people''s cultures?

[guruknows]

b-easy63
b-easy63

I noticed, your postings make sense ONLY if they are read WITHOUT BIASE to any country or race.

It is true that we American/westerners WANT to impose our rule on others and expect other to except them without question.

When same is applied on us then we get angry and all kind of stupitidy that is unfair!

[smiley676]

"Did you wish to disallow Catholicism and Protestantism all of these years when they were blowing up train stations, air ports and numerous civilians in the UK, and the rest of Europe?"

This argument is completely WRONG. It wasn''t Catholicism or Protestantism that was condoning or requiring the attacks. It was a group of rebels.

In this case, it is the actual religion that is requiring the beating.

[b-easy63]

Americans are not any more closed minded than those in other countries.Posted by smiley676 at 11:00 AM : Nov 29, 2007

I have lived in Europe (was born in England) Taiwan, Holland and have traveled most of the world. I have family in Pakistan (by marriage), S. America, Europe and the Polynesian Islands. I suspect I am more aware of how the world works and how many groups think than many Americans. I actually find Europeans to be more open minded than Americans. At the very least, though opinions may fly--of all Western countries only America (and perhaps Germany) get sooo upset by how other countries are that they contemplate killing them into submission or destroying them to solve the issues.

Live and let live is not a popular American idea. Many think it is our right to not only tell the world how they should think, feel and behave, but also, that we can disregard what we say and be hypocrites and that if they don''t comply we should kill them. I know of no European country where, in speaking about world issues, the idea of "kill them all" or "stop their religion" is the norm. America is a young, immature country with a lot of power--it is like a kid with a gun: Too immature to realize the ramifications of shooting, and too self centered to care or see what happens if we reap what we sow.

[Scooter68]

It is somewhat ''amusing'' to hear these cries that we should respect their laws, not force our ways upon these people when the truth is that in many cases these ''people'' are two faced. Over the years many military people (officers and enlisted) have come from a variety of Muslim countries to this country for training. Whenever they do they must be monitored to avoid ''incidents'' meaning when they get themselves in trouble by drinking, chasing women and a variety of other behaviors. IF these people were in their home countries they would be put to death for their conduct. Yet we are expected to accept it when a women, in all likelihood invited to teach at that school, falls victim to a group ''religious'' zealots who are bent on converting the world at the point of a sword.
Meanwhile throughout the region (Sudan/Ethopia/Somalia) petty thugs run wild acting as pirates intercept food shipments, killing at will while their ''governments'' stay by and watch. But this women is deemed worthy of punishment for her "offense"

Perhaps we SHOULD do our part to help out the starving masses over there. Lets do some airdrops of food - in particular Spam, Canned Hams etc. Let them be offended. People offer to help them and they bit the hands that help. Let them fester in their own hatred for a while.

[b-easy63]

This is no different than parents who beat their children for not having proper faith. If truth requires violence, it is not truth but lies.

Further, it is so sad that we have college feminists who want to murder our American religious people, and warrior-evangelicals who want to murder homosexuals. They say so blatantly. The backwardness of this Sudan hate-policy is easily found in the USA.

Posted by Dan9111 at 11:10 AM : Nov 29, 2007


You are right. Another observation: those who propose "stopping the religion or bombing this country are just as evil, bad misguided and ignorant as the country that wants to flog this woman. To suggest destroyind and killing millions for something a few did is the height of arrogance and hatefulness.

We go to other countries...we mess up---or go against their rules--they get mad--we think: "How dare they get mad at us"

We never seem to think "This would never have happened if I kept my azz at home" Now why is that?