ORANJESTAD, Aruba, Nov. 23, 2007

Natalee Holloway's Dad To Search Deep Seas

Father Of Missing Teen Says He Believes Daughter's Body Was Thrown Into Deeper Waters

    • Natalee Holloway, 18, left stands with her father Dave Holloway on her graduation day from Mountain Brook High School in Mountain Brook, Alabama, Tuesday, May 24, 2005. Photo

      Natalee Holloway, 18, left stands with her father Dave Holloway on her graduation day from Mountain Brook High School in Mountain Brook, Alabama, Tuesday, May 24, 2005.  (AP)

    • This is undated family photo released by Marcia Twitty shows Natalee Holloway of Mountain Brook, Ala. Photo

      This is undated family photo released by Marcia Twitty shows Natalee Holloway of Mountain Brook, Ala.  (AP)

    • Joran van der Sloot is transferred from the police station to court in the capital city of Oranjestad, Saturday, June 11, 2005. Photo

      Joran van der Sloot is transferred from the police station to court in the capital city of Oranjestad, Saturday, June 11, 2005.  (AP)

    • Deepak Kalpoe, 21, left, and Satish Kalpoe, 18, leave court in Oranjestad, Aruba, Monday, July 4, 2005. Photo

      Deepak Kalpoe, 21, left, and Satish Kalpoe, 18, leave court in Oranjestad, Aruba, Monday, July 4, 2005.  (AP)

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  • Play CBS Video Video Holloway Suspects Arrested

    Three men have been arrested in connection with the 2005 disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway, who vanished while on vacation in Aruba. Kelly Cobeilla reports.

  • Video New Evidence In Holloway Case?

    Maggie Rodriguez speaks with Joran van der Sloot's lawyer and his family's private investigator about allegations that he is connected to Natalee Holloway's 2005 disappearance in Aruba.

  • Interactive Paradise Lost

    Star student Natalee Holloway disappears during a senior trip to Aruba.

(CBS/AP)  The father of missing American teenager Natalee Holloway says he and a team of experts will search for his daughter's body in waters off Aruba following the recent re-arrest of three suspects in her 2005 disappearance.

While authorities searched the sea to depths of 330 feet, Dave Holloway told The Associated Press that he believes his 18-year-old daughter was thrown into deeper waters - a belief based on talks with a police official and a private forensic expert.

Holloway said a private boat owner is providing divers, sonar equipment and the ability to map the ocean floor.

"It's like this: we've searched all the land areas ... It's common knowledge on the island that if someone were to dispose of the body, it would be out in the ocean," he said by telephone

Holloway said he would alert police on the Dutch Caribbean island if anything is found.

Authorities announced Wednesday they had found "new incriminating evidence" and re-arrested three men - Dutch student Joran van der Sloot and brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe of Suriname - on suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm that resulted in Holloway's death.

Holloway said the re-arrest of three suspects in the case has renewed some hopes that he might finally find out what happened to his daughter

"It just gives us hope that they're still involved, and maybe we'll finally get some answers," Dave Holloway told CBS News Correspondent Kelly Cobiella.

The 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Ala., was last seen leaving a bar with the three men on May 30, 2005, hours before she was scheduled to fly home with high school classmates celebrating their graduation.

Quote

It's common knowledge on the island that if someone were to dispose of the body, it would be out in the ocean.

Dave Holloway, father
A search by hundreds of volunteers, soldiers, police and FBI agents - even Dutch air force planes - turned up no trace of her.

Holloway's father, Dave Holloway, is a graduate of Jonesboro Westside High School in Arkansas who now lives in Meridian, Miss. The teenager has other family members living in the Jonesboro area, a grandmother in Pine Bluff, Ark., and an aunt in El Dorado, Ark.

(AP)
Van der Sloot, seen left, and the Kalpoe brothers were first detained in June 2005, but they denied involvement in the woman's death and a judge later released them for lack of evidence.

Van der Sloot, 20, was re-arrested in the Netherlands, where he was attending a university. The Kalpoe brothers - Deepak is 24, Satish, 21 - were taken into custody in Aruba.

Van der Sloot's lawyer, Rosemarie Arnold, played down the arrest during an interview with the CBS Early Show's Maggie Rodriguez.

"We heard that there was new evidence. We don't know what the evidence is. We know that it's not a body, and we don't even know if it has anything to do with Joran." Arnold told Rodriguez. "When they arrest somebody in Aruba they could just doing it to detain them and question them and in this case that's what we expect to happen."

Continued



© MMVII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Add a Comment See all 49 Comments
by cdfoxtrot November 22, 2007 10:06 PM PST
These people must be unbelievably well connected, to be able to keep this bull_sh1t story in the news like this.
And of course the media is only too happy to be complicit. Bull_sh1t stories like this are, what, the new "opium of the masses"?
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by gunnerone2 November 22, 2007 10:28 PM PST
This kind of story needs to be in the news. This young girl was murdered and should not be forgotten. This is far more important than what Paris Hilton or any of the Hollywood people are doing. Hopefully the media will keep the heat on the police and get an answer as to what happen to her and catch the criminals involved.
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by cactuscomet November 22, 2007 10:45 PM PST
I empathize with this family for the loss of their daughter but this continuation of covering this story is unfair to all the other lost children who are not afforded this type of continuous coverage. Be fair in reporting the news. Let''s move on from this story.
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by misspp-2009 November 22, 2007 11:10 PM PST
Ho-Hum! More of this "damsel in distress" BS. While I sympathize with the family, why does the media persist in harping on ONLY certain cases? ENOUGH OF THIS! The last time it was all about the mother and stepfather and the dad didn''t get any press. Now it''s all about the dad. Who cares what HIGH SCHOOL he went to? Is that relevant to anything. NO!!! I guess the mom is still too busy dating JonBenet Ramsey''s dad. Sounds like trailer-park *** to me.
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by nothappyatall November 22, 2007 11:18 PM PST
"Yoran is being brought back to Aruba to reconstruct the day Holloway disappeared yet again,"

Oh yeah like he is going to remember all those minute stupid details now two YEARS later. These people are insane and obsessed, now the father is going to basically dredge the entire ocean around Aruba now after TWO YEARS???? anyone really think anything is left of a body dumped overboard that long ago? I''d say the sharks and other fish out there long ago consumed the flesh.
I''m really sick of these people and their pathetic story, hundreds of people go missing every day, and THEY don''t get the massive press this one family has the last 2 years, and it''s ONLY because the girl is a typical white bread blond, if she was black you would barely even have heard of the case.
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by nothappyatall November 22, 2007 11:20 PM PST
"Hopefully the media will keep the heat on the police and get an answer as to what happen to her and catch the criminals involved.

Posted by reaper221"

Keeping heat on cops is going to produce evidence that doesn''t exist, unless you are happy with charging an innocent person with a crime they didn''t commit, or trying to frame very shoddy "evidence" on someone so the case goes away?


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by nothappyatall November 22, 2007 11:25 PM PST
According to the story''s video, CBS news has learned "The new evidence is weak at best"

If the 3 were smart they would keep quiet, admit nothing, say nothing and Dec 31st the statute of limitations expires and the whole thing goes away, then hopefully WE won''t hear about this tiresome case and those tiresome parents'' obsession any more.
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by scully152 November 22, 2007 11:58 PM PST
newster1, If you have children I hope something like this never happens to them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If the 3 were smart they would keep quiet, admit nothing, say nothing and Dec 31st the statute of limitations expires and the whole thing goes away, then hopefully WE won''''t hear about this tiresome case and those tiresome parents'''' obsession any more.
Posted by newster1
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by scully152 November 22, 2007 11:59 PM PST
cdfoxtrot, I hope you do not have kids and something like this happens to them. Have some compassion. ~~~~~~~~~~ These people must be unbelievably well connected, to be able to keep this bull_sh1t story in the news like this. And of course the media is only too happy to be complicit. Bull_sh1t stories like this are, what, the new "opium of the masses"? Posted by cdfoxtrot
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by scully152 November 23, 2007 12:00 AM PST
cactuscomet, I agree with you. ALL lost children should be afforded the same coverage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I empathize with this family for the loss of their daughter but this continuation of covering this story is unfair to all the other lost children who are not afforded this type of continuous coverage. Be fair in reporting the news. Let''''s move on from this story.
Posted by cactuscomet
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by hdinsight November 23, 2007 12:25 AM PST
TO: newster1 -- When a child, any child, has been abducted & murdered, we should all be "obsessive" about finding the killer or killers. We should NOT STOP until the body is found & the killers are apprehended. You say the men should remain quiet. Well, they haven''t remained quiet & have changed their story numerous times. I believe there is a high probability that these three men ARE involved in the disappearance & subsequent murder of Natalee Holloway. Many experienced law enforcement officials are quite certain of their guilt which is why they are being re-arrested. These murderers should NOT remain silent. THEY SHOULD ADMIT THE TRUTH. This is the only ethical course of action & would help partially ease the suffering that not only the parents are experiencing, but the anguish that befalls every compassionate person who has been praying for closure to this extremely sad case. No, this case which you find so "tiresome" will never "blow over." A child is dead & justice must be served. Not just for Miss Holloway and her family, but for ANY CHILD WHO HAS VANISHED WITHOUT A TRACE.
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by edward1975-2009 November 23, 2007 12:54 AM PST
We can only pray and hope that this will give the family some type of closure eventually. This has been a sad story from the very beginning. Thoughts and prayers go out to this family in this the holiday season.
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by nothappyatall November 23, 2007 2:28 AM PST
"When a child, any child, has been abducted & murdered, we should all be "obsessive" about finding the killer or killers. We should NOT STOP until the body is found & the killers are apprehended."

"A child is dead & justice must be served. "
HDINSIGHT

She was not a "child" she was 18, that''s adult.
You are assuming she was murdered, there is no evidence of that, like I said, chances are excellent she went for one last swim in her DRUNKEN condition and drowned, the tide and currents took her out to sea before daybreak, and soon after the sharks and other fish ate the meat and whatever else they could.
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by bobgee_1999 November 23, 2007 5:45 AM PST
Whatever happened, happened. Hopefully a useful lesson is learned by parents and children alike (and while she was not legally a child, she was the offspring of her parents, therefore their "child"). When you swim with sharks, there''s a good chance of being bitten.
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by kevzgrl November 23, 2007 8:18 AM PST
I am so sick of Prophet and his ranting about Saint Ron the Good, and how only He can save us. I have reported it as abuse - stay on the political stories, idiot, where someone MIGHT be interested in your stupid rantings, and leave the other stories to those who are interested in the news of the day. Your repeated puffery about Mr. Paul is certainly NOT going to change my mind about the election, and I doubt it will change anyone elses. BTW-if you report abuse on a post, be prepared to make your point succinctly. CBS doesn''t want to have to read thru a lot,so 250 CHARACTERS is your limit.
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by barbaraf4 November 23, 2007 9:04 AM PST
I wonder why "dad" is getting involved at this late date. I don''t remember him being involved in the earlier activities.
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by marcodele November 23, 2007 9:43 AM PST
I hope this family finds closure, and I hope the spoiled brat Van der Sloot goes to prison.

I was going to vote for Ron Paul, but Phrophet convinced me only whackos support Ron Paul.
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by beckajw November 23, 2007 10:13 AM PST
Why do you assume he is a spoiled brat? Why do you assume he is guilty?

There hasn''t been any hard evidence found either way.

I hope the family finds closure to, this is a terrible tragedy. And I hope that whoever did this pays for his/her crime.

But it is also a tragedy that people are so quick to judge as guilty whomever the media has pegged.
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by lambofgoth November 23, 2007 10:49 AM PST
What, exactly, is this guy hoping to find in deep warm water after 2.5 years? Has this guy ever heard of fish?
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by rosie1012 November 23, 2007 11:01 AM PST
I don''t believe that Natalee Holloway is dead. Her body never surfaced from the water. In fact, 5 minutes before the news segment came on TV, I was thinking about her and I had just turned on the TV. I didn''t have any clues that they were going to run a segment on N.H. I believe she is in either Brazil, Columbia or Venezuela which are the surrounding countries of Aruba. I have felt this way since 2005 when I heard that she was missing and now suddenly on Thanksgiving in 2007 her story pops up. That is my premonition and feelings. Perhaps, someone should contact me (like her father) and see if I have any insight or vision in finding his daughter. I don''t know why she hasn''t surfaced - it could be a similar case like Elizabeth Smart.
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by everyone8 November 23, 2007 11:10 AM PST
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by deemsnyd November 23, 2007 12:05 PM PST
Van der Sloot''s mother, Anita, said by telephone that investigators had recently questioned her family and that of the Kalpoe brothers.

"The questions they asked were so obvious: things like, ''Why did Joran leave his shoes on the beach?"'' she said, referring to the place where her son said he kissed Holloway alone before her disappearance. "I think it''s ridiculous after two-and-a-half years to be doing this."




I bet she does think it''s ridiculous. She wouldn''t if the scenario were different and her son was missing. All the people that wish this story would go away because it is somehow an inconvenience to them would feel diffently if it were their child. I would love for any of you to post back and actually say, "If it were my child, I would just let it go after so long a time, so other less fortunate families can have air-time for their missing relatives." Give me a break.
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by jimbo554 November 23, 2007 12:13 PM PST
I can''t imagine what he hopes to find in the water!

I think she was so drunk she passed out on the beach and drowned. But I guess if they''re determined to blame those boys, they won''t stop until they succeed.
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by greeneyes222 November 23, 2007 12:17 PM PST
"All the people that wish this story would go away because it is somehow an inconvenience to them would feel diffently if it were their child. I would love for any of you to post back and actually say, "If it were my child, I would just let it go after so long a time, so other less fortunate families can have air-time for their missing relatives."

If it were my child I would never stop looking for answers BUT I would not participate in endless blow-by-blow media coverage either, for my own sanity. The media can be helpful to a point, but at this late date it feels self-serving and ghoulish.
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by deemsnyd November 23, 2007 1:49 PM PST
greeneyes222,

I see your point. Makes sense, but some of these posts are so cruel, that I still find it hard to believe that they would feel exactly the same way if it were their child. If they care nothing for the missing teen, you''d think they would at least want to know if there were criminals that needed to be removed from society. As young as these suspects are, if they are guilty, imagine how many more people they will victimize in their lifetimes. As far as the media going overboard is concerned, you are probably right, but even if they went overboard to this extent on every missing person''s case no matter what race, etc...some would still be offended because of "too much coverage" and it doesn''t concern them, so "big deal". Just my opionion, though.
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by smiley676 November 23, 2007 2:03 PM PST
Newster1 obviously has some strong biases that he/she needs to get over.

That said, the story is out of hand. The media has basically convicted these three of being murderers when, in fact it is entirely possible that as drunk as Natalee was, she could very well have drowned accidently.

I don''t think that the media is helping the case get solved. If it was, I would be all for the coverage. However, as it stands, I think the media is just making a circus out of this and this website is a prime example.
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by kailumego1 November 23, 2007 2:09 PM PST
The reason why many wish this story would "go away" is based on media biasness over this particular story, and if my son/daughter went missing, of course I would want unlimited press coverage and law enforcement dedication/attention, unfortunately, I''m not white, therefore, if my son/daughter went missing, I''d be lucky to get back page, that''s the problem.

And for that reason I can see why some individuals have developed apathy for this story, there are hundreds/thousands of missing men and women, now tell me when does the media have time to cover at least 1% of them, for blasting stories of missing young white women all over front page...

Now you think those mothers and fathers are any less grieved stricken than Natalie Holloway''s parents?
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by nmsuip November 23, 2007 2:32 PM PST
OK. To indulge in speculation:

1. Most likely scenario: Alcohol/drugs resulting in some sort of accidental death. Some or all of the suspects know something but freaked out and have been trying to cover their tracks ever since. New "evidence" will likely have little or no impact.

2. Next most likely scenario: She disappeared because she wanted to, for reasons known only to her. Alive & well in Rio (or wherever).

Alot to be said for persistence, but if Scenario 1 applies chances of finding something in the ocean 2.5 years later are less than chances of winning Powerball.

WWRPD? (What Would Ron Paul Do?)
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by denn034 November 23, 2007 2:38 PM PST
Natalie is more than likely there. Searching the deep seas is a good idea.
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by marcodele November 23, 2007 3:01 PM PST
She was last seen in a car with three drunk and young and presumably h0rny guys after a night of partying.

We all know what happened, and so do those three young men. They need to save their souls and tell the truth.
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by smiley676 November 23, 2007 3:28 PM PST
marcodele, "save their souls?"
Judge not and you will not be judged.

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by knyghtwolf November 23, 2007 3:50 PM PST
At least IF they find any remains at the bottom of the deep sea venture, DNA will still be good because the ph in the ocean is the same in the human body and chances are anything found could concievably be used to determine if its her or not. I hope that if this is the outcome that at least the parents can finally have their own private closure.
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by marcodele November 23, 2007 4:53 PM PST
Hey Smiley! I don''t care if I''m judged. I have nothing to fear about judgment.
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by lisann326 November 23, 2007 5:34 PM PST
Don''t sharks live in those waters? Let''s pray they didn''t get ahold of her body. We had a big debate at our work recently where a guy said she was responsible for what happened to her. How did she think leaving a bar drunk with three guys was going end? All of the women were livid. Women don''t be foolish don''t trust these men. A girlfriend and I had a pilot from Fallan Airforce Base put a date rape drug in our drinks at a bar, but one of our friends who was with us was in AA and actually there to listen to the band as we were, but thought we could trust the drink these two guys brought to us from the bar. Thank God she was there and told them that we were NOT going back to the hotel where there were officers and drove us home. I have never set foot in a bar again because when I was looking for some sympathy from my brother, he said what do you think men think you are in a bar for? I said not to be druged. That''s probably why they got rid of her body, because traces of something that incapacitated her probably could have been found. She didn''t deserve any of it. Americans haven''t grown up in poverty and as a whole are less suspicious and more trusting. God Bless her and her family. There are many of us who still think about her and cry.
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by November 23, 2007 6:21 PM PST
It took 9/11 to finally put that story about the chick *** the congressman then going missing to rest. Wonder what it will take to put this dead horse to rest finally......
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by ladyephesus1 November 23, 2007 6:39 PM PST
That was an awful thing to say about an innocent young woman. Shame on you txroaddawg!
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by kailumego1 November 23, 2007 7:33 PM PST
Binge drinking and drugging doesn''t constitute death, however, this story has received way more coverage than it should, there are hundreds, probably thousands of missing teens, young women, etc. here in the United States and abroad that don''''t get this much media coverage..

This is a disgrace, to the families whose love ones memory has been purposefully swept under the rug, or given the back seat for this continuous saga of Natalie Holloway.

Her family''''s prestige has contributed to the outlandishly amount of coverage, which has/had thwarted headlines in other cases of missing women, and for that this case has become a redundancy of overly-exaggerated and unnecessary drama.

This should be a "slap in the face" to all the missing women in Aruba that hasn''''t received this much attention or police/media dedication.

Equally beautiful young women, black, Hispanic, etc. had been reportedly missing only receiving a minutest amount of media coverage, while the Natalie Holloway story just dragged on for over a year..

And now the "media circus" has started all over again, with the same old sensationalism and over-dramatizations, becoming nothing more than a washed out piece of journalism and creating apathy among readers and listeners, whom have grown tired of this continuous "rollercoaster ride" of redundancy..



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by whatithink-2009 November 23, 2007 8:33 PM PST
This story gets crazier and crazier by the day.

I assume there are no sharks or other flesh eating creatures in the sea, if that is where she is?

For the amount of time spent searching the sea, I am sure we could find 1,000,000 missing people somewhere on land.
Reply to this comment
by whatithink-2009 November 23, 2007 8:36 PM PST
While this story was written, thirty jumbo jets filled with children have crashed in the sea due to the lack of treatment for curable diseases and unclean drinking water.
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by erasmus6 November 23, 2007 10:28 PM PST
Let''s hope other kids learn that it isn''t safe to leave your friends and go with THREE guys you don''t know. What would possess someone to do this?
Reply to this comment
by nothappyatall November 24, 2007 2:20 AM PST
"Her familys prestige has contributed to the outlandishly amount of coverage, which has/had thwarted headlines in other cases of missing women, and for that this case has become a redundancy of overly-exaggerated and unnecessary drama."

And it all begins again witht he non headlines of "3 arrested AGAIN", give us the headlines if they are CONVICTED, not everytime the 3 men *** or every time Nat''s mom has her period, I''m sick of these people already.

"I dont believe that Natalee Holloway is dead. Her body never surfaced from the water"
Rosie1012

Belief doesn''t make it so, ever hear of SHARKS? just because a body doesn''t float up or surface doesn''t mean a thing out there in the open waters, what do you think those fish, sharks and bacteria EAT?
A shark of any size could make short work of a body in minutes, there wouldn''t be anything left to float up and wash ashore.

Reply to this comment
by keithle1 November 24, 2007 9:56 AM PST
Good luck finding her.

You''re not wasting your time, Dad. Oh no. I''m sure she''s floating face-down out there somewhere.
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by kailumego1 November 24, 2007 4:32 PM PST
newster1, from my understanding sharks don''t eat people, because they are absent of "blubber", not enough fat, too lean, don''t like the taste...

Sharks munch on blubber, that''s why they are attracted to seals, sea lions, and whales, for the "blubber".

Now the sharks may bite off a limb, but he/she won''t eat it, so maybe if they search the bottom..

Now, as for scavenger fish and bacteria, that''s another question altogether..

They''ll never find her body, there are other ways to dispose of a body besides casting it out to sea, such as mutilation and decapitation. And if they had cast her body at sea, don''t you think they would have applied a heavy object, e.g. an anchor to weigh her down..

With all the missing men, women, and children, why is the press giving such nonsensical attention to this one?

Either she''s dead or has been sold into "human trafficking", of which they''ll never find her, hundreds/thousands are sold throughout Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, etc., it''s only when it touches Americans when it becomes paramount.
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by mjmarjo November 24, 2007 10:03 PM PST
I have read the book. These creeps gave different reports of what happened to the police every time they were interviewed. Van der Sloot states Natalie kept falling asleep and waking up and describes her underwear and what he did to her. If she was incoherant I would call that sexual assualt. I believe he should be in jail. Daddy cannot protect him in jail.
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by Krazcarl November 25, 2007 1:22 AM PST
It''s a fools errend finding a body on the ocean floor is the equevilent of winning megabucks. I understand dad wanting to bring his daughter home but grew up on the coast of Me. in colder waters occasionaly a fisherman would net a body or at least that''s how the stories went. I believe these punks know a lot more than there telling and should be leaned on hard and looks like that is whats going on she could easily be in a shallow grave. I wish pops luck but it took them nearly a 100 years to find the titanic and they had an idea of where she was. There is no need to bring up gory details but there are 100''s of creatures in the sea.At this point the best thing to do is set up a educational memorial in her name so her legacy can live on not spend 10''s of 1000''s of dollars without any better info than you have unless he has obtained some reliable information off the record.
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by gmond November 25, 2007 2:41 AM PST
Spoiled rich kids are the same anywhere in the world. The boys dumped her someplace when she no longer amused them and left her there, and most likely don''t know and most definitely don''t care if she was alive or dead or what happened to her after that. I can''t believe they could enlist help to cover up her murder, dump her body in the sea or sell her into white slavery, these are just rich little hedonists who hooked up with the wrong girl on the wrong night and tried to brazen it out to show how cool and tough they are when they were arrested, just like any young protected punk would behave.
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by keithle1 November 25, 2007 11:22 AM PST
Young women need to stay sober while in the company of men they don''t know well. When a woman gets drunk, she has to rely on the men around her to act like gentlemen. Not a good position to be in.

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by judyd123 November 26, 2007 8:39 AM PST
I can understand the pain of Natalee''s parents because I am a mother also and the unimaginable pain that they go through just not knowing for sure what happened to there daughter is almost more than the human soul can bear. I hate to see people making remarks as if.. oh, well, let''s all move on because this story is just a little old. Please have a little empathy for people because, after all, you could one day be in a situation where you would like some understanding and hey, it just might not be there. I pray that there will be ANSWERS in this case but I know statistics don''t bear that out because of time and of course the expanse of the ocean. One day the people who did this terrible things will pay when they go before the Almighty but I fear only then will justice be truly done. And to you dear parents.....I pray for peace in all this, the peace that passes understanding.
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by pam1sadge November 26, 2007 11:10 AM PST
Good luck to the Halloway family. They are looking for closure and answers and I hope they get what they are seeking.

To all of you people who are making inhumane comments think about your karma. One day this could happen to you and you might just be able to understand a loss of this enormity. Shame on you! Learn some compassion if that is possible.
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