Separating War And The Warriors
Dick Meyer Considers Veterans Day And The Role Of Monuments
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The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington, steps away from memorials to Korean War and World War II vets and Abraham Lincoln, is one of the most visited monuments in the U.S., conveying many messages to its millions of visitors. (AP)
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This memorial plaque, honoring Vietnamese who died in the war, is at the Truong Son National Cemetery in Vietnam. (AP)
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Many visitors to the Wall in Washington leave flowers, flags and personal mementos; for some, born after the war, it is an opportunity to pay respects to relatives they never had the chance to meet. (AP)
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Memorials to soldiers who died in Iraq are turning up across the U.S. This one, the traveling exhibit "To Never Forget: Faces of the Fallen," created by students at the College of Marin in California, was inspired by the Wall in Washington. (AP)
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Many tributes to soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iraq are on the web or take a more personal form, such as this tattoo Iraq war veteran Sean Gilfillan created in memory of seven U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq. (AP)
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The Iraq War is deeply unpopular and has been for more than two years. Yet the men and women who served in this long battle are not unpopular. Americans worry about them, respect them and try to honor them. This might not be the case except for November 13, 1982.
That Veterans Day 25 years ago was when the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated on the Washington Mall. It was a memorial late in coming and filled with controversy. No one expected that day 25 years ago that the Wall would become the most visited memorial in the nation's capital. Some 4.5 million people come to visit each year.
Memorials at their best don't just commemorate history; they inform the present and steer into the future. The living legacy of the Vietnam Memorial belongs to today's soldiers.
Jan Scruggs was the Vietnam Vet who did more than anyone to get the Wall built. "The great lesson of the Vietnam Memorial is that it separated the war from the warrior," he told me last week.
Scruggs was an infantryman from Bowie, Maryland, who was wounded in Vietnam War. He later got a graduate degree in psychology. He's interested in things like Carl Jung and emotional dynamics of groups - the collective. In the late 1970s, Scruggs felt Vietnam's "survivors needed a societal recognition."
Many Americans didn't give the veterans and casualties of Vietnam that recognition. They were called "baby killers" and became the innocent scapegoats for a guilty government and for a society that mostly sent its poor and disadvantaged off to the jungle.
The fight to get the Wall built had an ugly side. The design by Maya Lin was especially controversial. "The Vietnam Memorial was black and the other monuments were white," Scruggs said, keeping Jung in mind.
Most of the vets groups wanted a traditional war monument: heroic, white and tall. Scruggs and his gang wanted great architecture. They got it, as any of the 40 million people who have walked by the 58,253 names chiseled in the black granite now know.
"The wall is reflective," Scruggs said. "You can see your face in it." Perhaps that is the recognition needed by a society that treated the warriors of Vietnam so poorly. In that sense, the Wall is not a memorial, but a place of forgiveness.
Scruggs and many others are now trying to raise the money to build a Vietnam Veterans Memorial Center. The idea is that since millions of people come to the Wall each year, why not add on a place to display more history, not just about Vietnam, but America's soldiers?
"The impact of the Wall today is being felt by the military veterans who are returning from Iraq," Scruggs said. "They are being treated as sympathetic figures. People want to buy them a beer."
That does not mean Iraq war veterans always get the health care and support they need. That does not mean the bureaucracies they must rely on will be transformed. It does not mean that more soldiers won't be killed.
Memorials do not make leaders wise, statesmen able and citizens alert. But great monuments can be a mirror for the people who come to look at them and can reflect some clear, new light.
E-mail questions, comments, complaints, arguments and ideas to Against the Grain. We will publish some of the interesting (and civil) ones, sometimes in edited form.
By Dick Meyer © MMVII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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But let us never forget the impact on the men and women who serve their country in armed conflicts, and on their families, friends, and the social fabric.
I do not support this war, but I thank every person who has served or sacrificed in any way.
I understand what you are saying... BUT-
If you support the soldier, you support his victory in the war he fights for YOUR freedom. You, as a citizen/relative of a veteran, might not agree with the war''s outer concepts the civilian population is erroneously told by our press/government, but you SHOULD support the soldier achieving the thing they were sent to do- the objective of "winning" the war he fights.
I''m an Iraq War vet. Do you know how silly and demoralizing it sounds to a vet to hear that "support the troops, not the war" rhetoric spouted from the misinformed American public- most of whom have never even botherd to serve in the military in peacetime, let alone in Iraq?
While it might mean well (which I''m sure people do mean well when they say it) from a vet''s point-of-view, its an excuse for an average citizen to write this war off easily.
Some soldiers feel this way, but deep-down inside we''re all deeply upset at the prospect of "defeat" in Iraq, whatever that may entail.
For me... I support our troops, I support our war''s objectives, but It''s okay to disagree with the government/media reasons for or against the war. That''s who you have the beef against. THAT''S who you truly "don''t support" when you all-too-often easily say "I don''t support the war." When you say this, friend, say "I support our troops and their objectives at this point-in-time, but I have issues with the government and the media''s commentary on the war''s aims."
;)
Add this fact to the many recent studies indicating totally inadequate funding for veterans programs, medical facilities, etc. etc..
Bush can ask for millions-billions-trillions to fund his misguided adventure in Iraq. He asks that we go into debt for decades to fund this horror. Why does he not include veterans programs in his demands for $? Congress has no difficulty tacking pork on to any appropriations bill, so why aren''t they tacking on veterans?
Our government is FAILING!! I happen to believe it is failing because of the fear-mongering and divisiveness promoted by the neo-cons and proto-fascists in the Bush administration. You may disagree, but whatever the reason, we are failing our veterans!
PLEASE! Whatever your political stripe -- communist, fascist, republican, democrat -- e-mail your congressman and senator EVERY DAY!
If you are a talk show afficiando, demand that the Limbaughs and O''Reillys talk about veterans instead of their usual rants. If Rush can have his "phoney soldiers", he should have some time for the "real" soldiers who are homeless on our streets.
Posted by Quatrops at 08:07 AM : Nov 08, 20
By the way its afficianado. Also I live in a community where many of the residents are retired military and in general they live quite well and get generous health benefits that are commensurate with their contributions. there are many different benefits for people who have been in the service. I work in the social welfare field and have not noticed this disproportionality of homeless among veterans. My experience that most people I meet who are homeless are those who are mentally ill and will for one reason or another either not get help or refuse to take advantage of it
You are fortunate, indeed, to live in a community where all the retired military are well-off and comfortable. And the probability is that they are the educated officer corps and higher-ranking NCOs.
I, on the other hand, live in a community where the "retired" military are not so well-off. They are the privates, PFCs, Spec. 1s&2s --- the "cannon fodder" if you will. They are not well-educated. And many are homeless. And many, if not most, are mentally ill, although I don''t imagine you encounter too many of those in the "community" you describe.
The point is that they are mentally ill BECAUSE of their military service. So what do you do -- just toss them aside because they initially refuse help? Are you unaware of the recent disclosures by the VA and the Army about the inadequacy of their treatment and facilities, of the months-, even years-long waits for treatment for PSTD? (At least, the gov''t. finally opened up on agent orange after years of denial).
Let me help you out on your "unaware"-ness: Figures from 2005 Veterans Affairs Dept. and Census Bureau:
On a given night, of 744,213 homeless, 194,254 were veterans.
So, anyway, when you''re saying your good Christian prayers tonight for our brave men and women in Iraq, say a few for the veterans we tossed on the trash heap!
I do know--it is not silly or demoralizing at all, just the opposite. I work with veterans and that is where I hear it most often. Although they do not say "support the troops" they say "support the soldier" because it does come down to each individual soldier and family of a soldier that deserves support. And that support has NOTHING to do with how you feel about the war.
That''s the kind of cockameny thinking that neocons are famous for.
So you show your support for our brave troops by shipping them to fight and die in a war that was created chiefly to benefit a few of Bush and Cheney''s cronies?
How crazy is that?
The only way to support our troops is to bring them home.
Iraq was a neocon war and 4000 of our best have died for that war, a war built on lies and fake intel.
It''s Bin Laden vs. Bush.
The score so far?
Bin Laden - 3000
Bush - 4000
BUSH WINS THE SLAUGHTER HANDS DOWN!
On a given night, of 744,213 homeless, 194,254 were veterans.
So, anyway, when you''''re saying your good Christian prayers tonight for our brave men and women in Iraq, say a few for the veterans we tossed on the trash heap!
Posted by Quatrops at 01:58 PM : Nov 08, 2007
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let me see I have worked for social security for 37 yrs and 33 of them have taken disability claims of a wide range of people many of whom are veterans. There are two major military bases a short distance from us as well as multiple health care facilities. I help with welfare for the needy and make referals for housing.
Most of the veterans I know have very good health care because they have access both to on base facilities, local health care and va hospitals and clinics for free.
many times mentally ill people will not accept care available. We have frequent visits from mentally ill who have stopped taking there meds not because they were unavailble but because they chose too.
You cannot require a mentally ill person to be treated or force them to be hospitalized. Laws prevent this.
My mother was bi-polar and she twice decided to stop taking medications. she had to be hospitalized. I don''t know if she could have been obliged to now
Is it your point because this is an unnecessary war that therefore people who suffer this should be pitied more than those who suffered after a noble war.
My last PTSD case was from a teacher who had never seen war Oh excuse me he had but the ptsd was due to an occurence while he was a teacher.
I grew up when most men were veterans and knew none that were afflicted by this problem
Posted by tejasdemo at 12:27 PM : Nov 08, 2007
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I would remind you that virtually every major war began with a democrat in office including Vietnam which was the most hated and where we treated, no liberals treated the returning soldiers as scum
You voted for George W Bush.
I don%u2019t think anyone trusts you''re judgment.
Committees of both House and Senate have investigated both the VA and the Dept. of the Army. The minutes of those meetings read like Kafkaesque horror stories. The deplorable conditions at Walter Reed hospital were recently exposed. Resignations followed.
It isn''t beyond my comprehension that someone can sit in their tidy conservative community in their comfy federal job and in their "unawareness" of the numbers of military homeless, then stick their head in the sand and pretend that the rest of the country is like their serene community. Particularly if they have convinced themselves that all the evidence to the contrary comes from those lying liberals in the media.
So yeah, Alan. Forget those 194,254 veterans who are sleeping on the streets tonight. After all, it''s not YOUR street. And tomorrow, when you''re sitting in your comfy office filling out form SSA1234xp for the "battle fatigued" ex-PFC, and he tells you he is afraid of UFOs, check the box that says "Applicant refuses help" and send him on his way.
Having previously described his tidy, conservative community where the many retired military are comfortable and well; his sinecure at the SSA where, his most memorable PTSD experience, apparently, was a retired teacher; where there appear to be few, if any, homeless (one can almost picture the local gendarmes doing a "sweep" every evening to make sure such vagrancy does not establish itself); and where it would appear the only TV is Fox News . . . . given all this, is it surprising he was "unaware" that there are, roughly, 194,254 homeless veterans sleeping on the streets of America on an average night?
After extensive media and congressional coverage of the failure of the VA and DofA (Walter Reed being the most recent)to provide adequate care for veterans (PTSD often being highlighted), how robisch can continue to argue to the contrary is beyond belief.
There are thousands of ways we could provide assistance to mentally ill homeless veterans without "forcing" them to get the medical help they need but now refuse. Please. Let''s do it!
Republican Presidents were in office at the beginning of the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, the Vietnam War, as well as Gulf Wars 1 AND 2.
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Posted by alanrobisch2 at 08:46 PM : Nov 08, 200
Wrong ! Typical right wing BS.
Great post from bombid14, too. Thanks!
osted by tejasdemo at 11:27 AM : Nov 09, 2007
I have a BA in amerrican History and can tell you that this is accurate. YOu are the one thats ignorant. WWII FDR dem was in charge WWI Woodrow wilson dem Korean War Harry S Truman Dem Vietnam War JFK and Lyndon Johnson Dems Nixon repub continued but then ended war gulf war bush pub popular war in which we whipped butt. Only unpopular invasion started by pubs since 1900 is current incursion into Iraq
"I would remind you that virtually every major war began with a democrat in office"
After I pointed out that this statement was incorrect, he qualifies it:
"Only unpopular invasion started by pubs since 1900 is current incursion into Iraq"
You didn''t start out with the "1900" disclaimer. Or the "unpopular" disclaimer. Civil War, Spanish-American War are now excluded.
Then he apparently ignores the fact that Ike sent the first Marine units into Vietnam, and ignores Gulf War 1 completely. Are you trying to say that Vietnam started with Gulf of Tonkin, which would not have happened if our "advisers" had not already been in Vietnam?
Are you saying that Desert Storm was popular? Even though it took down a President? Or maybe it wasn''t a "major war"?
I guess you can redefine anything if you use squishy enough definitions.
The effects of traumatic stress have affected many if not most veterans of all modern wars. Not everyone is affected to the same degree and not everyone shows outward signs all the time, but the effects are still there--that is well documented and not debated.
In fact many of the "war wounds" of returning veterans are not visible or obvious, many are internal.
In fact, it is misnamed: post traumatic stress is not a disorder, it is the normal reaction of a human to an overly stressful environment or situation. People who show signs of PTS are normal and need some treatment, but they are not mentally ill and should not be labeled.
Posted by taxguydave
tax guy dave I have a ba in american history and you are right about the spanish american war but I might dispute the civil war since I don''t think Lincoln started the war and if any war in our history was necessary that one was. It defined our civilization.
I also dipute you statements about Vietnam. the war in vietnam did not not take on serious depth until Lyndon Johnson decided to escalate our involvement. Jfk had his hand in too in deciding what we should do there. I have never and I lived through that era ever hear that Eisehower started the war. He sent people who were advisors to help and to the best of my knowledge there were no american casualties in his term in office
yes GWB did start the war in 1992 uhuh after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and he had a truly multi lateral force and at the time of the brief war he had an almost 90% approval rating. We suffered 60 casualties approximately. I am aware there is something called the gulf war syndrome that they trace to the ammunition used.
For an individual who attests to the "truth" of the above claim to imply that his opinions about various other historical matters should be given deference because he is credentialed with a BA in history is another.
Still, the illogicity of the two claims combined is, to the average person, patently absurd. Were a person to be scoring a debate with one such participant, I think a fair evaluation of "absent" would be appropriate.
You are entitled to whatever faith dynamic works for you, Alan, as are all of us as long as it doesn''t impose on the rights of others to practice theirs. But I find your opinions on religious and political matters tend to do just that.
PS: I note you continue to judge "ignorant" those who disagree with your opinions or your interpretation of historical events. Does humility EVER intrude on your life?
Posted by Quatrops at 07:45 PM : Nov 09, 2007
I guess humility doesn''t intrude on yours either. I have studied history and just about anything that is readable through out my life and have heard that oral histories can be very acurate because of the extraordinary importance that people who knew these stories put to them and the importance of making them accurate because they represented the central parts of their lives.
In ancient religions it was considered critical to perform ceremonies in a precise way therefore it was very important that the knowledge of how they were performed was very important. It was felt if they were not done correctly they would not be affective. also note the ability to record history began almost 5000 yrs ago. We have no certain way of knowing if the stories were not previously written down. Note the gilgamesh epic is an example of the congruency of legends of the flood. This was written in sumerian cuneiform.
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Posted by V_1618 at 10:16 AM : Nov 09, 2007
Please we have the wealthiest nation on earth and the poor in our country would be well off by the standards of many countries. Rome did not fall because of poverty. some as gibbons believe it was due to introduction of christianity. I believe it came because of the strong forces coming from barbarian forces and the weakened social structure of Rome.
Ps the post of tjasdemo claimed what was factual was not. this is ignorance
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Say a prayer for the 194,254 homeless american veterans tonight!
Say a prayer for the 194,254 homeless american veterans tonight!
Posted by Quatrops at 09:15 PM : Nov 09, 2007
Why not try pointing out my errors than using your usual ad hominem attacks. I unlike you know I am not perfect and far from all knowing and my opinions are often are just that. I try to substantiate my points probably not well at times but I try to be straight. apparently you just aren''t willing to concede that I might be right at times
Posted by Quatrops at 09:15 PM : Nov 09, 2007
Why not try pointing out my errors than using your usual ad hominem attacks
Posted by alanrobisch2 at 09:56 PM : Nov 09, 2007
Are you totally dense, alan? That''s exactly what he was doing.
Or do you not remember writing this: "I work in the social welfare field and have not noticed this disproportionality of homeless among veterans."?
My father processed the bodies of US Marines from 1959-1961 arriving in Long Beach, CA (he was a USMC Lieutenant assigned to the Naval Brig). He saw several bodies arrive from Vietnam via Hawaii that were clearly combat casualties. Ike was President at the time.
You may have a BA in American History. I''ve studied American history most of my life, mostly as a hobby. It doesn''t take a BA, though, to have lived through Vietnam or the ''92 Presidential campaign.
While I was in college earning my own BA (electrical engineering), I worked at a plasma center, where mostly homeless people go to get a few bucks donating blood plasma. At least half of our homeless donors were Vietnam vets. Some were still wearing their Army fatigues (this was in the early 80''s).
I do know from reading and watching programs and from living through it that the escalation of the war began when Johnson was in power and that he did not run for re-election because of the unpopular war.
this whole debate began when I stated that democrats were in power when most major wars started. Jejasdemo called this right wing BS. I stand by what I said. This was not an attempt to portray democrats as war mongers as Tejasdemo claimed republicans were.
I think every president takes going to war seriously and neither republican or democrats take going to war lightly
His failure to be re-elected was due to economic woes and his tax increases which as you noted he swore he wouldn''t do. REad my lips no new taxes. He punted because of the high deficit
It is true that the war incited Bin Laden to create Al Qaeda, but blaming GWB the first for this is strictly 20-20 hindsight. His invasion of Iraq was the right thing IMho.
I am sure that many years from now a historian will piece together the various reasons for the current problems and I am sure that other reasons will be found for the Muslim terrorism besides freeing Kuwait after its conquest by Iraq
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by alanrobisch
November 10, 2007 9:42 PM PST
- virtually every major war began with a democrat in office including Vietnam which was the most hated and where we treated, no liberals treated the returning soldiers as scum
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See all 39 Commentstax guy dave
this is a copy of my words in my original post I said virtually and I guess you are trying to be vindictive since i was apologizing not trying to trump anyone.