House Panel Gets Earful On Waterboarding

In Spite Of Bickering In D.C., Experts Say Interrogation Method Is Torture, Must Never Be Used

(CBS/AP)  A hearing on torture opened today on Capitol Hill, and itself launched into a protest about one witness who was gagged by the Pentagon.

Lt. Col. V. Stuart Couch, a former Guantanamo Bay prosecutor and appellate judge of the Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals, was scheduled to appear before a House subcommittee today to testify about the use of waterboarding and the legality of torture and other interrogation techniques.

In a March 31 Wall Street Journal story, Couch had said he had refused to prosecute a suspected terrorist because he believed the evidence had been tainted by torture.

The Journal revealed today that the Pentagon gagged Couch, preventing him from appearing at today's hearing.

"I find it outrageous that the administration has again chosen to stonewall an investigation into some very serious charges," Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said at today's hearing, "and the outrageous claim that torture - or whatever you want to call it - is legitimate and in our national interest.

"The issues before this subcommittee today could not be more serious," Nadler added. "And once again, when important questions need to be answered, we are told that no one has the right to question the administration.

"I am very tired of the secrecy and stonewalling by this administration."

Yet those who did appear before the subcommittee today left no doubt that the law is clear:

"Waterboarding is torture, period," Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, said. "I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor."

The hearing comes as Senate leaders struggled to agree on the timing of a confirmation vote for attorney general nominee Michael Mukasey, who has refused to equate waterboarding with illegal torture, or to say that a president has no right to order its use.

The former retired judge is expected to win confirmation, but his nomination has sparked a bitter debate about the questionable legality of waterboarding and its authorization by the Bush administration on detainees.

The interrogation procedure, which makes the subject think he's drowning, is banned by domestic law and international treaties. It has reportedly been used by CIA interrogators on terrorism suspects, or by those to whom U.S. prisoners have been sent via rendition flights.

Mukasey's repeated refusal to testify that waterboarding is illegal torture cost him the votes of most Democrats on the Judiciary Committee, and there remains the threat of a filibuster when the vote comes to the full Senate.

He won the votes of two Democrats, Sens. Charles Schumer of New York and Dianne Feinstein of California, with an assurance that he would enforce any additional ban on the practice passed by Congress. Both houses are considering legislation to ban the procedure in all circumstances.

The debate shifted to the House Thursday, as the subcommittee, chaired by Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a Democrat, convened a hearing on how the procedure is carried out and whether it meets the legal definition of torture.

As a former master training specialist in survival programs, Nance said that he underwent waterboarding as part of his training and that he personally led or was involved in using the procedure on hundreds of other trainees at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School.

Nance described the experience as a "slow motion suffocation" that provides enough time for the subject to consider what's happening: "water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel(ing) your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs."

"The victim is drowning," Nance said in materials submitted with his testimony. The intent during training, he added, is to stop the process before death occurs.

Training sessions are where waterboarding belongs, not as part of efforts to gain intelligence information from foreign agents, said a second witness.

Such "coercive" interrogation techniques are not as effective as those that elicit cooperation, because false information is often elicited under harsher methods, said Col. Steven Kleinman, a senior intelligence officer and military interrogator for the U.S. Air Force Reserves.

"Tragically, many of these same tactics have migrated into the repertoire of interrogators seeking intelligence information," Kleinman said.

The costs of torture are beyond the physical or emotional pain caused to the subject, or to the damage to prosecution cases against suspects, where information obtained through torture must be thrown out. Nance testified that the United States has wholly failed in its ability to influence the hearts and minds of those in the Middle East because of the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay, and the invasion of Iraq.

He said many in the Middle East believe what the United States is doing comes out of pure malice, and that it will take "decades of very hard work" to turn that image around.

Kleinman and Nance both said that the reasons such coercive techniques have been used is that those in charge of interrogations are overruled by those higher up who, they say, are wrongly influenced by media representations of torture, like the TV show "24," and ignore the body of evidence that shows torture does not work.

"Technically they're doing a form of what we jokingly call 'Tom Clancy procedures,'" Nance said. "'It works in the book, it must work in real life.'"

Their comments were followed up by the subcommittee's ranking member, Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., who said he is against torture but that "sometimes we have to take measures to protect the innocent that we do not like.

"Severe interrogations are sometimes part of doing that," added Franks, who asked the panel if a ticking bomb scenario meant that such procedures could be legitimized.

Kleinman said such speculative questions only cloud the issue, and that coarser techniques only produce information that can't be trusted even if some of the information were valid. "I can't cherry pick" to determine if the subject was trustworthy, he said.

During the hearing, Kleinman was asked if a legal definition of torture was comparable to that of obscenity - you know it when you see it.

Kleinman said that if lawmakers were to witness the procedures enacted, "any discussion about the use of those methods would cease immediately."

[oscarez]

Bush is worried that what has happened at Guantanamo Bay may lead back to the White house and be used as grounds for impeachment. I don''t think he has anything to be worried about, at least not from the gutless congress in Washington.

[one_american]

No torture.. Let''s give em 3 hot meals and a warm bed.. They''ll tell us everything...

Posted by guyfrompa45 at 02:25 PM : Nov 08, 2007


Yes, or maybe the coffee and donut technique? They always confess everything under the stress of that one...

[one_american]

Maybe instead of Guantanamo, we could place the terrorists in the homes of some of their liberal moonbat supporters.

I''m sure both parties would enjoy that one.

And the moonbats could express their sympathy for the terrorists.

That would be well recieved by the terrorists.

And then the terrorists would chop the moonbats'' head off...

Let''s do it!

[cassandragop]

Torture is not about getting information.
It is control, sadism and in its prettiest
dress - vengeance.

[one_american]

Torture is not about getting information.
It is control, sadism and in its prettiest
dress - vengeance.

Posted by cassandragop at 02:46 PM : Nov 08, 2007



There''s a volunteer for the terrorist-hosting program now, folks!

[l8c6]

No torture.. Let''''s give em 3 hot meals and a warm bed.. They''''ll tell us everything...

Posted by guyfrompa45

How about hot wax is dropped on your nuts with intermittent jolts of pure amperage across your nipples until you confess how you tied your mother up, performed oral *** on her and penetrated her before you disappeared her. No mercy till you confess and admit to what you did.

[sevenveils]

After World War 2 the US prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torturing US prisoners of war. The most common type of torture the Japanese were convicted to prison for was waterboarding.

How did a method of torture recognized during World War 2 as barbaric and inhumane become acceptable and supported by the President and his judicial nominees?

[lastdance4]

Off Topic :
The Never-ending - Continuing story of : The Republican (Nazi) Party - Hypocrites

Sioux City Journal.com
November 08, 2007 (ONLINE EDITION)
Former state lawmaker charged with *** crimes

PIERRE, S.D. (AP) -- A former member of the South Dakota House was arrested Friday on charges of rape and other offenses against two girls who were his foster children

Klaudt fancied himself a radical right Republican (and an evangelical) and in 2005 was a leader against the formation of the South Dakota Mainstream Coalition, meant to turn Republicans back towards mainstream conservatism

Klaudt was charged with eight counts of second-degree rape, two counts of sexual exploitation of a minor, one count of sexual contact with a child younger than 16, two counts of witness tampering and one count of stalking.

At least one of the alleged offenses involving one girl occurred when she was a - Page - During a legislative session.

House Speaker Thomas Deadrick, (R) Platte,who served four years with Klaudt in the House. Accompanied Klaudt on Friday, saying he was acting as Klaudt''s lawyer.

The jury on Tuesday found Ted Klaudt guilty of all four counts of second-degree rape after deliberating for three hours. Klaudt, 49, could get as many as 25 years in prison for each count when he is sentenced in January.

Klaudt, a Republican served eight years in the state House from 1999 to 2006

Lastdance

[one_american]

All kinds of libs posting here that want to have terrorists staying with them as roommates...

Sign them up!

[l8c6]

Maybe instead of Guantanamo, we could place the terrorists in the homes of some of their liberal moonbat supporters.

I''''m sure both parties would enjoy that one.

And the moonbats could express their sympathy for the terrorists.

That would be well recieved by the terrorists.

And then the terrorists would chop the moonbats'''' head off...

Let''''s do it!

Posted by One_American

How about we place you in a room with a story teller, maybe Rush so americans could be spared his pig mouth, providing you the story you want to hear till the day you croak. Meanwhile the "moonbats" will continue living with the reality of this world and involve themselves in a manner of progress for the human race.

[l8c6]

Sounds like you speak from experience, lib (on one side or the other).

Posted by One_American


Did you forget lemming, "libs" are bleeding hearts, they don''t torture, they are soft on criminals. You f-heads are so contradictory it''s revealing.

[kissamaarse]

I have read accounts of pro-waterboarding advocates and corporate media journalists referring to waterboarding as mimicking drowning. You cannot mimic drowning, no more than burning trash is mimicking burning. Waterboarding is a gradual drowning. Ask anyone who made a trip (or trips) to the waterboard while at Navy S.E.R.E. in the early 1970s on the Mojave Desert in Southern California. They will tell you what a joy it is. I recommend that all U.S. senator, and all high-placed Bush administration officials, including those awaiting confirmation, take at least one trip on the waterboard. Then we''ll see what side of their mouth they talk out of.

[cassandragop]

"There''''s a volunteer for the terrorist-hosting program now, folks!"

Posted by One_American at 02:47 PM : Nov 08, 2007

You are a recruiter for al Qaeda - right?
That is the only reason I can think of for the very
un-American posts from you.
Be so silly and savage that it drives reasonable humans in the other direction.

[one_american]

"libs" are bleeding hearts, they don''''t torture, they are soft on criminals

Posted by l8c6 at 02:55 PM : Nov 08, 2007

Did you forget - terrorist are at the very LEAST criminals, which you are obviously SOFT on.

You revealed only yourself, lil buddy.

[one_american]

The liberal rule of thumb is:

"Always drag down America, and never look at both sides of the issue".

It''s also call "selective amnesia", and most moonbats liberals are afflicted by it.

[l8c6]

The rich punk mascot in the tainted White House like satire has exposed them for what they really are which is right wing fascist neo con totalitarians who have been attacking a government intended to represent the greatest number of americans which requires compromise amongst the citizenry and replace it with a government that works for their totalitiarian ideological special interests scr*ewing the majority of americans in the process and inevitably *** most of themselves and eventually all of the human race.

Beginning largely with the rhetoric of Reagan, these totalitarian neo con republican fascists have been wanting "big government off their backs" which is the government that represents the greatest common good with intent to replace it with a "privatized" corporate wall street style government that is just as big but represents only the largest share holders namely the wealthiest most politically and globally corporate connected.

[j-whitman]

One_American ---- Ronald Reagan convicted Texan Lawmen for Waterbording in 1983,,, Are you accusing him of dragging down America ?????
----- You really need to stop blaming Amreicans 1st & look at the issue ----------- It''s Not Legal

[jntlw-2009]

If you are sick and tired of being stonewalled then impeach or just shut up and stop whining. I am for impeachment of Cheney and if you cannot impeach you give them (Repubs) incentive to to keep stonewalling and abusing the law. Eiher impeach or shut up because if you think the public will back cowardly Democrats who refuse to impeach - you are sadly mistaken. Let ''em roll over the law - you are too cowardly to do the right thing and impeach!

[l8c6]

Right wingers have functioned for the past few decades in the U.S. as pseudo public representatives claiming to hate big government when the goal is to take office through unethical political methods and transform the government in a way intent on severely limiting the amount of representation the government offers to "ordinary"citizens. After all, why would Barbara Bush want to expose her "beautiful mind" to the thoughts and concerns of the peasantry? The government under "conservative" right wing control will never decrease in size as is the outward proclamation of the right wing. The government instead will continue under such control to become an exclusive government representing the largest shareholders. Control is the key, not leadership nor representation of this nations collective human wealth. Right wing conservatism is arrogant, elitist and narcissistic at it''s base and imparts an anti-social culture amongst the people. Right wing "conservatism" divides humanity and destroys community. In the course of a right wing feeding frenzy some appear to be achieving but in the finale all are consumed by the inherent unethical basis and hypocrisy of this flawed ideological persuasion.

[undermyboot]

Torture the Torture Lovers

I say waterboard EVERY SINGLE MORON (including the ones on this board) who thinks it is not torture. Tell them they can make it stop by telling the investigator, "My mother is a wh*re." Tell them that a recording of this will be sent to their mother. I know that EVERY SINGLE lowlife fake "hero" on this board and CHICKENHAWK (politician, talk radio fascist, Fake News "commentator") who supports torture would quickly LIE and call their mommy a "Wh*re" to get it to stop.

But hey- if it is not torture it won''t be so bad. Put your cowardice where your mouths are you worthless fake Americans. But all we will get on this board and with the traitors in the White House and Congress is more cr*p talking and chest thumping. Because you all are what you appear- cowards and fascists masquarading as patriots. What a buch of worthless Nazis who have no idea what this country stands for. "Principle"? Sorry they never learned the word. Throw them in the "hole" where they belong. Record their cries to "mommy". I will be ROFLMAO

[j-whitman]

jntlw,,,, I suggest Americans call Pelosi in Washington as I did, you can speak to a person & not a recording to put impeachment on the table ---- Here''s the number 1-202-225-4965

[oscarez]

One_American wishes he could be the one poring the water on all us liberals. He says that would be more fun than stomping baby chickens.

[j-whitman]

Oscarez,,,,, I dounbt if One_American can tell the diference between a shower curtian & toilet paper

[jntlw-2009]

jntlw,,,, I suggest Americans call Pelosi in Washington as I did, you can speak to a person & not a recording to put impeachment on the table ---- Here''''s the number 1-202-225-4965


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by j-whitman at 03:13 PM : Nov 08, 2007
+ report abuse

Thank you J. Whitman. I have already sent an email to my congressman (D) and let him know I want him to support impeachment of Cheney! If you don''t the smart alecks think they can continue to run roughshod over you and laugh at you while they''re doing it. It sick and outragous at the same time.

God Bless you J. Whitman

[lastdance4]

RE : j-whitman

Treason does not merit - Impeachment

Treason Demands - The Gallows

Lastdance

[beresford3]

According to the media...the U.S. has waterboarded a grand total of three terrorists...and none since 2003. One of the three was the guy who planned 9/11 and knew of future terrorist plans.

I''m sorry if the nice terrorists were made uncomfortable. If we are mean to them they might treat Americans harshly in the future. Oh yeah, like the 3000 they killed in 2001 or Danny Pearl whose throat they cut.

If Congress doesn''t like the tactic, they simply have to pass a law which specifically bans it. Why won''t they? Because when the next terrorist attack happens, they don''t want someone to say that we had a terrorist in custody who might have been able to warn us about it but Congress said no.

[denn034]

The Pentagon was wrong to gag Couch. It''s attempt to manipulate Congress by limiting it''s access to witnesses is deplorable. Someone at the Pentagon needs to lose their job.

[gunownerdan]

WHO TORTURES?
Fascists
Communists
Dictators
Religious extremists

The day America begins to torture is the day America will die!

[marcodele]

OneAmurken X 56,000,000 = enough right wing neocon nutjobs to give us the Bush disaster.

[j-whitman]

Beresford3,,,,, It''s against the law, several cases have been in our courts & they have ruled against it in the past, even under the Reagan Administration, a Texas Sheriff got 10 years in federal prison for it.

[j-whitman]

denn034,,,,, Yep & people in the White House fired U.S. Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin, for undergoing the procedure & ruling Waterbording is Torture

[foranc]

Let Bush, Cheney & Co. and their families give waterboarding a testdrive and if after enjoying the receiving end of this method they still think it isn''t torture, let''s go for it.

[gunownerdan]

WHO TORTURES?
Fascists
Communists
Dictators
Religious extremists

The day America says torture is OK is the day America will die.

[lastdance4]

Posted by One_American at 02:44 PM : Nov 08, 2007
___
Maybe instead of Guantanamo, we could place the terrorists in the homes of some of their liberal moonbat supporters.
I''''m sure both parties would enjoy that one.
And the moonbats could express their sympathy for the terrorists.
That would be well recieved by the terrorists.
And then the terrorists would chop the moonbats'''' head off...
Let''''s do it!

Posted by One_American at 02:44 PM : Nov 08, 2007
_____

Anyone who Encourages - Supports and Endorses - Torture
Has a mindstyle of a Twisted and Depraved Pervert
They themselves Fantasize Carrying out that type of Perverted and Depraved Activity.

Copy the Statements by : One_American

Send that Statemnt to the appropriate Law Enforcement Agencies
So they can be Forwarded to - Local Law Enforcement Police.

Local Law Enforcement and Police need to Know they have a Person Living in Their City and Wandering throughout their Neighborhoods
Who Supports - Endorses and Fantasizes taking part in the Diabolical Act of - Torture ! !

Lastdance

[antoniof123]

The day America begins to torture is the day America will die!

Posted by gunownerdan at 03:28 PM : Nov 08, 2007

Well, I hate to tell you this but the Republicans are trying to say it is OK and they want to continue and not be questions about it.

So I guess we are dying and if we don''t kill the cancer then we deserve to die. The GOP has become like a cancer if they think that the majority of Americans approve of this.

[gunownerdan]

Dr. Ron Paul will never allow torture in America.
He is the only pro-liberty and anti-war candidate running for president.
ronpaul2008.com

[Syndicate]

If water boarding is torture then are executions not torture? Surley sitting a cell year after year knowing the state is taking its time to execute you must also be torture. Wouldn''t life in Prision be torture. Sitting their knowing you will die there must be mental torture. In fact if water boarding is torture then handcuffs which the officers delight in making extra tight must also be torture. IF water boarding is torture then simply sending someone to prision is torture. If water boarding is torture then we must release everyone from prision so that we don''t torture them. Draw thew dam line where you want it. I agree with the guy that said all congress has to do is pass a law. Of course congress will ignore their responsibility out of fear of being blamed as the gentelman said previously.

[myidoncbs]

Beresford3 feels "sorry that the nice terrorists were made uncomfortable".

Please note, you sub-cretinous inhuman monster: nobody said they were "nice". Waterboarding doesn''t just make them "uncomfortable"... it is TORTURE, illegal under US and International laws. By ordering torture, trying to cover it up, and continuing to use it, Bush, Cheney, and a whole host of their collaborators have become WAR CRIMINALS.

Furthermore, most ig/norant one, torture does NOT work! If you knew ANYTHING other than what you get from comic books and TV fantasies and the repugnant spin machine, you''d realize that! This is NOT a matter open to debate. Torture has been thoroughly researched and tested and IT DOES NOT PRODUCE RELIABLE INFORMATION.

You can FORGET about your stu/pid hypothetical scenario where some evil person has been captured and a bomb is about to explode and your hero tortures the villain and he confesses and reveals the whereabouts just in time... It does not work like that, not ever! The villain WINS if he tells you nothing useful. He''s already been caught, but he can still win if he just doesn''t tell you the truth. So, what on earth makes you think he WILL tell you the truth?

The ONLY people who support torture are violent, stu/pid, ig/norant fo/ols... bullies like the little "decider" who loved to stick firecrackers up frog''s behinds and watch them blow up! Sick, sick, sick, evil people!

[l8c6]

Ron Paul is against net neutrality which means no government intervention which means the monopolizing corporations that are dominating the internet will dictate what content is present on the web that all citizens paid taxes to develop. Privatization and free market are palatable ways of saying rule by the elite and get the government of the people off the backs of the corporate elite.

[samael2014]

I do believe it has to have been featured in at least three of the four versions of the movie "SAW" and its sequels to qualify as "possibly" being construed as a form of torture under the Decider''s clear understanding of the law.

Clearly waterboarding does not meet that standard, and in a free and open democracy witnesses must be gagged [literally of course... and bound] if it put''s the Decider''s sociopathic and self-deluded reputation in question.

Christ... this country is really just too amazingly ****** up to imagine, if this piece of *** can get away with gagging people''s testimony without reprimand and correction.

[l8c6]

Those who believe torture is the key to accurate information should have hot waxed dripped on their genitals till they confess they have *** with kittens.

[j-whitman]

It''''s against the law, several cases have been in our courts & they have ruled against it in the past, even under the Reagan Administration, a Texas Sheriff got 10 years in federal prison for it.

[bareemperor]

Torture, Pre-emptive Invasions and 9/11...

All brought to the USA by Bu$hCo.

R.I.P. America.

[magoo2u1]

"The interrogation procedure, which makes the subject think he''s drowning, is banned by domestic law and international treaties."
Is it necessary to say another word on the subject?
YOU ARE AN IDIOT IF YOU THINK ONLY GUILTY PEOPLE GET TORTURED. The torture of one innocent man by the USA is unacceptable. I served in the US military because we were practicing a higher standard than a lot the world was at the time. Now we are no better than the North Koreans. Anyone that supports torture has thrown out the US contitution. Go back and read it again. Look up Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.
Grow some ideals and stick to them when things get tough. Some of you belong In Baghdad working for the insurgents because you are capable of drilling holes in another mans head because of his religion.

[one_american]

"Since pacifists have more freedom of action in countries where traces of democracy survive, pacifism can act more effectively against democracy than for it. Objectively the pacifist is pro-Nazi."

- George Orwell.

[lochlan-2009]

IMPEACH BUSH!!!!

[l8c6]

Clearly waterboarding does not meet that standard, and in a free and open democracy witnesses must be gagged [literally of course... and bound] if it put''''s the Decider''''s sociopathic and self-deluded reputation in question.

Christ... this country is really just too amazingly ****** up to imagine, if this piece of *** can get away with gagging people''''s testimony without reprimand and correction.

Posted by samael2014

Justice has been set aside for self-indulgent elitists who like Barbara Bush, the incubator for the punk mascot, wouldn''t wish to have their "beautiful minds" bothered by certain inconvenient matters.

The United States government has been taken over by pimped politicians who no longer serve the masses of american voters but rather are serving a wall street democracy where number of votes is determined by numbers of shares owned and by those who control the election process.

[magoo2u1]

I agree with the guy that said all congress has to do is pass a law.
There is a law. Jeeez. The practice is banned. It should not be taking place. period.

[one_american]

MMMMPEACH PIE!!!!

[myidoncbs]

Another mo/ron, who just can''t imagine what it''s like to be a human being, asks "If water boarding is torture then are executions not torture?"

What happens with waterboarding is that they almost drown you, or actually DO drown you, then revive you, then do it again, and again, and again, ... on and on until you go completely insane from the fear, not knowing whether or not the next time will be the time you actually take your last breath. It is an EXTREME TORTURE. It is NOT something ANY sane human being would wish on another person. A simple execution is not nearly as torturous... you know you''re going to die, and a few minutes later you are dead. End of story.

Only the most truly depraved, inhuman animals support torture. Such people are NOT suitable for inclusion in any civilization.

And, once again... TORTURE DOES NOT EVER PRODUCE RELIABLE INFORMATION. IT IS WORTHLESS! It''s ONLY value is to make the torturers feel powerful. And that''s NOT a good thing, because people who torture are SICK, TWISTED, and EVIL.