Bombing Afghanistan

Afghan President Tells 60 Minutes That Too Many Civilians Are Being Killed

(CBS)  60 Minutes wanted to understand how these air strikes are planned. It turns out the mission that made Mujib’s neighborhood look like an ancient ruin was run through a futuristic-looking, classified control center. We were surprised to get into the facility because it has never been seen on television before. We promised the Air Force we wouldn’t reveal classified information, or the Persian Gulf country where the center is located.

Air Force Col. Gary Crowder is deputy director of the Combined Air Operations Center, which runs the air war over both Afghanistan and Iraq.

"You know, I'm curious. How often is an air strike prepared that's called off at the last minute?" Pelley asks.

"Thousands and thousands of times a month,” says Crowder. “We look very, very often, we tracked some of the insurgent leaders we will track for days and days on end. And we are prepared to strike them at any moment. But we can never get all of the criteria necessary to meet our rules of engagement.”

We learned there are two kinds of targets: deliberate targets, which are analyzed for days and watched for patterns of civilians coming and going, and immediate targets, such as when troops are in combat and need air support. In both cases, civilian casualties are estimated in advance and it's up to the commander on the ground to decide whether the strike is worth the cost.

"We rely on those commanders to make the assessment at the time of what the requirement is. He assesses proportionality. He assesses the validity of the military target," Crowder explains.

Asked what he means by " proportionality," Crowder tells Pelley, "If we know that there is a sniper on a roof and the roof is in the middle of a mosque which is a protected site or in the middle of a very populated area, then dropping a 2,000 pound weapon on that would not be proportional to going after the sniper."

"Two men with AK-47s run into a house. Do you bomb the house?" Pelley asks.

"In some circumstances, we will bomb the house,” says Crowder. “It is entirely dependent upon the circumstances on the ground, and the ground commander's assessment of that particular situation.”

"There's this macabre kind of calculus that the military goes through on every air strike, where they try to figure out how many dead civilians is dead bad guy worth," says Marc Garlasco, who knows the calculus of civilian casualties as well as anyone.

At the Pentagon, Garlasco was chief of high value targeting at the start of the Iraq war. He told 60 Minutes how many civilians he was allowed to kill around each high-value target -- targets like Saddam Hussein and his leadership.

"Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you're gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that's not a problem," Garlasco explains. "But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld."

Garlasco says, before the invasion of Iraq, he recommended 50 air strikes aimed at high-value targets -- Iraqi officials.

But he says none of the targets on the list were actually killed. Instead, he says, "a couple of hundred civilians at least" were killed.

"The bombs that are dropped are really only as accurate as the intelligence behind them?" Pelley asks Crowder.

"That's true. But we have come a very long way in getting that intelligence to be more accurate," Crowder says. "We will collect human intelligence, signals intelligence, overhead full-motion video, all of that tied together, very often in real time. That gives us a better understanding and a significantly higher confidence that the targets we're engaging are in fact valid military targets."

Of course the Taliban are killing civilians too, targeting them deliberately. By contrast, 60 Minutes watched American airmen calculate how to minimize civilian casualties with the choice of timing, weapon, and direction of attack.

"I don't think people really appreciate the gymnastics that the U.S. military goes through in order to make sure that they're not killing civilians," Garlasco points out.

"If so much care is being taken why are so many civilians getting killed?" Pelley asks.

"Because the Taliban are violating international law,” says Garlasco, “and because the U.S. just doesn't have enough troops on the ground. You have the Taliban shielding in people's homes. And you have this small number of troops on the ground. And sometimes the only thing they can do is drop bombs.”

[feelfree1]

Re: "The president of Afghanistan demands that the U.S. military curtail its use of air strikes against insurgents in his country because they are killing too many civilians."

Who cares? Does the former UNOCAL executive and currently installed "Mayor of Kabul", Hamid Karzai, really think that he has any legitimacy or sovereignty?

Torturing and bombing Afghan civilians hasn''t seemed to bother him much in the past. Why the change of heart?

Mass-murdering civilians fom the safety and comfort of an airplane...is there a more cowardly mode of murdering people, besides the robots and drones perhaps?

[tnt1954]

it is more blessed to give than receive. do unto
others as you would have them do unto you.

[brianbwb-2009]

"Torturing and bombing Afghan civilians hasn''''t seemed to bother him much in the past. Why the change of heart?..." Posted by FeelFree1

The Bushpuppet occasionally has to say something to appear to the world to be concerned with the welfare of Afghani citizens, when in reality he only speaks when Cheney tells him to.

[mcvet]

Hey folks get used to this. These people have studied Southern Fascist and they have played Bush like the Red Neck he is. In other words we are screwed! The Taliban and Bin Laden are just fine and happy in them there hills and President Lil'' Abner can''t figure out how to deal with it. When you KILL more civilians you CREATE more young Arabs who are willing to put explosive on themselves and KILL as many as they can. Of course attacking a Country that had done nothing to you nor had anything to do with any attack against you SURE helps the ENEMY as well. Now COMMON SENSE tells us this is NOT good.... Such is the case when you place people who haven''t figured out who won OUR Civil War in charge of this Nation.

[rerrorislam3]

LOOK WHO IS TARGETING CIVILIANS!!!

Qaeda warns of attacks ''worse than 9/11''
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070530102648.wuwa6k96&show_article=1

Hizbullah Deputy Sec-Gen Sheikh Naim Qassem: We Have Jurisprudent Permission to Carry Out ''Martyrdom'' Operations, Fire Missiles on Israeli Civilians From Ayatollah Khomeini
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD154907

Switching Sides: Inside The Enemy Camp

But then in 2000, well before his arrest, something happened which would make Abas question everything he believed in: a fatwa, a religious edict, was issued by Osama bin Laden.

"It should be understood that killing Americans and Jews anywhere found are the highest act of worship and the highest form of good deeds in the eyes of Allah," Simon quotes bin Laden.

Abas and his fellow commanders were ordered to read the fatwa to their men and make sure they carried it out. The others obeyed, but Abas refused. It was his moment of truth. He firmly believed that jihad was to be fought only on the battlefield in defense of Islam; he had always been taught that the killing of civilians had nothing to do with holy war and that it was forbidden.

The fatwa justified killing non-Muslim civilians everywhere.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/04/60minutes/main2761108.shtml?source=RSSattr=60Minutes_2761108
American Al Qaeda Member Threatens Attack
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/29/terror/main2865282.shtml

[feelfree1]

Attention all:

Don''t miss an opportunity to join countless others in denouncing the illegal, disgraceful, and self-defeating Bush wars of choice, and the regime''s heinous criminal behavior.

A nationwide regional demonstration is coming to a city near you this Saturday, October 27.

Please join in support of this effort!

www.oct27.org

[v_1618]

BUSH CHENEY AND RICE FOR WAR CRIMES....CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY...

[klifton2-2009]

Karzai is just about as impotent any "leader" would be when that "leadership" is installed by a foreign power. Obviously, there is no legitimacy at all in his "power." US, particularly under the Bush/Cheney administration, is a corrupting influence in world affairs. It is conceivably be the most corrupt administration since the founding of the Republic. It is an indictment of the American people for allowing rouges and thieves to get away with what they are doing.

[klifton2-2009]

Karzai is just about as impotent any "leader" would be when that "leadership" is installed by a foreign power. Obviously, there is no legitimacy at all in his "power." US, particularly under the Bush/Cheney administration, is a corrupting influence in world affairs. It is conceivably be the most corrupt administration since the founding of the Republic. It is an indictment of the American people for allowing rouges and thieves to get away with what they are doing.

[missingamerica]

Just another day in the long night of the neocons...

[rerrorislam3]

Posted by V_1618 at 02:34 PM : Oct 26, 2007

terrorislamists FOR WAR CRIMES....CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY...

Is islam a violation of international law???

islam practices slavery on non muslims
islam practices apartheid on non muslims
islam practices rape on non muslims
islam practices rape on babies and animals
islam practices genocide on non muslims

all are violations of international law and are crimes against humanity

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/22/world/main2505445.shtml
Imam Khomeini - Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352826&TOCID=2083225445
Malaysia women ''suffer apartheid''
The daughter of Malaysia''s former prime minister has launched a scathing attack on the roles and status of Muslim women in the country.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4784784.stm
A matter of tolerance
http://musingwithmarinamahathir.blogspot.com/2006/12/matter-of-tolerance.html
Marina Mahathir
http://musingwithmarinamahathir.blogspot.com/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=slavery+islam&btnG=Search
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4795808.stm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=apartheid islam
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rape islam
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rape islam babies&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=genocide islam&btnG=Search

[walt1944-2009]

The Great Emperor Bush II has heard the pleas of the president of Afghanistan, but instead will listen to the demands of his generals (And VP Darth Vader Cheney)! The fact that the air forces of the USSA are bombing targets in Afghanistan can only mean that things are not going very well for the Emperor in the country and he is resorting to air power to "stay the course"!

It amazes and perplexes many people that with the mess already in existence in Afghanistan and Iraq, that the Emperor now wants to go after Iran and screw up that country too! Plus, now he is risking confronting Russia and China! Perhaps he wants to invade them too!

SIG HEIL, BUSH!!!

[feelfree1]

War of aggression against Afghanistan planned BEFORE the 9/11/01 attacks:

"Representatives of the Bush-Cheney administration, trying to persuade the Taliban to share power with US-friendly factions in a %u201Cunity government,%u201D reportedly gave the Taliban an ultimatum: %u201CEither you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.%u201D When the Taliban refused, the Americans reportedly said that %u201Cmilitary action against Afghanistan would go ahead . . . before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest.%u201D

www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17194.htm

[thinkharder-]

TerrorIslam 3...do you have any thoughts of your own? You seem very well suited for your constant regurgitation of your hate/fear mongering sentiments. You are a joke and you can post all the propoganda you like. You will not sway the hearts and minds of real, thinking, compassionate, freedom loving Americans.

[barbaraf4]

Isn''t Karzai another Bush "appointee"?

[feelfree1]

Let''s keep in mind that the Taliban had offered to turn Osama bin Laden over to authorities, if the Bush regime would provide evidence that he was involved in the 9/11/01.

The Bush regime failed to do this, most likely because:

- No such evidence existed

- The Bush regime had already planned a war of aggression against Afghanistan, and did not want to risk their flimsy justification for attacking that country

[roach9703]

It appears that Karzai''s pleas for ending air strikes may indicate a shift in the balance of power towards the Taliban. This is product of our miscalculations in Iraq. We did not finish the job is Afghanistan and we are continuing to pay the price.
We need in depth discussions with Karzai now!

[signof4]

Oh, well....why don''t we just put 60 *** Minutes in charge of the war in Afgagastan. THey obviously know how we should be fighting it, so have at it.

I was in the navy, but EVEN I can understand why air strikes are still necessary in that region.

[tiddsanbeer]

AAAHHHH.....SO WHAT. JUST KEEP BOMBING THEM. THEY HAVE ALL HATED AMERICANS SINCE DAY ONE ANYWAY, JUST LIKE OUR OWN LEFT WINGNUTS.

EVENTUALLY, THEY MAY LEARN FROM IT, UNLIKE OUR OWN LEFT WINGNUTS.

[danstoned]

Posted by Signof4
I was in the navy, but EVEN I can understand why air strikes are still necessary in that region.

I can too, because foreign lives mean nothing to you arrogant jinGOPigs. YOure a belligerent American so you can pisson any foreigner that you so choose. You jinGOPigs are soo easy to spot, on-line, in a crowd, with your used car salesman personalities. What a discredit you are to mankind!

[talkingham]

tiddsand beer I canm''t believe you''re talking about one of our staunchest allies like this. I''m truly saddened.

After it was the liberals who let Osama literally walk away from the battlefield when we had him corned, it was the liberals asleep at the switch on 911, it was the liberals who planned how to win the peace in Iraq. U neocons are not conservative at all, just stupid and greedy.

[pastdue1]

Everything about these 2 wars has been without significant thought. We arrogantly assumed that our air power could solve any problem and would show the world that we are the super power to be reckoned with. It has done neither. Yet, we continue to kill and be killed without any significant thought.

[feelfree1]

Signof4,

Re: "I was in the navy, but EVEN I can understand why air strikes are still necessary in that region."

Then may the next mass-murder of Afghan civilians, and or the next U.S. bombed-out wedding party, rest squarely on your conscience.

There are few more cowardly tactics than slaughtering civilians from the comfort and safety of an airplane.

[dogsoul]

Ha! Listen to all the liberals cheer for the Taliban! I thought the liberals were saying, Afghanistan absolutely - Iraq no... now it''s something different - heck, if Bush declared that 2 + 2 = 4 we''d be hearing from liberals what a liar he is... and of course all their conspiracy theorists proving how 2 2 does not equal 4...

So Karzai now prefers a different approach eh??? And trying to do an end around thru our liberal media in order to get it? Somehow HE''S now an expert on these matters... perhaps he''d prefer if more of OUR people got killed rather than HIS? F*ck him - let the bombings continue...

[nexgen99]

I agree stop the bombing and drop the nukes. Let''s be done with these maggots for once. Then we''ll have one less threat to deal with.

[danstoned]

dogsoul you COWARD, bombing innocents from afar when your COWARDS are too COWARDLY for hand to hand combat. Ill bet you are a Southern White Trash, too!

[feelfree1]

"I agree stop the bombing and drop the nukes. Let''''s be done with these maggots for once. Then we''''ll have one less threat to deal with."

Posted by nexgen99

###

Will sub-human cowards like this poster ever step forward to do their own mass-murdering, or will they simply squeal for others to do it for them?

[talkingham]

pastdue1, U just don''t get it. Air power is not for winning this "war", it was just for effect so we could watch the price of oil, gas, and home heating fuesl triple during the first 6 years of the Bush admin - u know kind of a diry little delayed shock and awe for the american consumer to pick up the tab. Bush is an oil man and he and they have won, thanks to what good ''ol Walter Cronkite used to say in his program 20th Century--"AIRPOWER!"

I''d call 25-billion+ a quarter profit for most of the big oil companies a win win - even Venezuela gets to share in the fun with these huge profits!! C''mon let''s stay focused here!

[j-whitman]

Here''s a good one,, This is from ''Right Wing News'' believe it or not --

"We Let Bin Laden Get Away Again.", Col. David Hunt

August of 2007, bin Laden was in a convoy headed south from Tora Bora. We had his butt, on camera, on satellite. We were listening to his conversations. We had the world%u2019s best hunters/killers %u2014 Seal Team 6 %u2014 nearby. We had the world class Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) coordinating with the CIA and other agencies. We had unmanned drones overhead with missiles on their wings; we had the best Air Force on the planet, begging to drop one on the terrorist. We had him in our sights; we had done it. Nice job again guys %u2014 now, pull the *** trigger.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/10/we_let_bin_laden_get_away_agai.php

[tiddsanbeer]

DOGSOULS'' GOT IT! LISTEN UP HAMBONE....I do not know ANYBODY from this country that supports or wants innocent civilians killed during our attacks...HEELLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....Strange how it is THEY who seem to TARGET civilians and babies in their attacks......DO YOU FU KKIING UNDERSTAND THAT???

[glossypan]

Face it, warmongers. It is time to leave the fate of Iraq and Afghanistan to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan.
We should have the most elite forces of our military searching for Osama bin Laden and start immediately and quickly bringing the rest home. No one except defense contractors is gaining from our continued occupation.

Well, maybe Iran also. We have installed a Shia government on their western border. Without Saddam and the Sunnis to fret over, they can turn their energies elsewhere. George Bush Sr and Bill Clinton recognized this.

[nexgen99]

"I agree stop the bombing and drop the nukes. Let''''''''s be done with these maggots for once. Then we''''''''ll have one less threat to deal with."

Posted by nexgen99

###

Will sub-human cowards like this poster ever step forward to do their own mass-murdering, or will they simply squeal for others to do it for them?

Posted by FeelFree1
---------------------------------

I''ve never squealed a day in my life, but I bet you have.

[tiddsanbeer]

You left loons never cease to amaze me with your absolute ignorance and disdain for our boys who are fighting and dieing for your childrens future....no matter how "comfortable" (quoting dognuts FEELFREE)you think they are doing their job over their. They love their country, which is more than any fu kkkiing liberal I know.....

[libsluvsuvs]

the problem with the request is that none of these terrorist insurgents are indoctrinated soldiers..MEANING NO UNIFORMS, NO DOG TAGS, NO RULES..they are civilians.

it would be best to start looking at what is making these civilians into insurgents..

[dogsoul]

"dogsoul you COWARD, bombing innocents from afar when your COWARDS are too COWARDLY for hand to hand combat. Ill bet you are a Southern White Trash, too! "

Ha... liberals calling other people cowards, not THAT''S rich... yeah butt cramp, it''s called fighting smart - why risk the lives of your own forces with hand to hand combat when you can obliterate the enemy from afar? Oh yeah... I get it... things that make actual sense don''t MATTER to you liberals, I almost forgot. We ARE the best at minimizing collateral damage - but we''re not perfect... I only wish there were some way we could hit liberals instead of the occassional unfortunate civilian - at least THAT way we''d be hurting Al Queda & the Taliban directly...

[ioweign]

Ha! Listen to all the liberals cheer for the Taliban! I thought the liberals were saying, Afghanistan absolutely - Iraq no... now it''''s something different - heck, if Bush declared that 2 + 2 = 4 we''''d be hearing from liberals what a liar he is... and of course all their conspiracy theorists proving how 2 2 does not equal 4...

So Karzai now prefers a different approach eh??? And trying to do an end around thru our liberal media in order to get it? Somehow HE''''S now an expert on these matters... perhaps he''''d prefer if more of OUR people got killed rather than HIS? F*ck him - let the bombings continue...

Posted by dogsoul at 03:39 PM : Oct 26, 2007

When Clinton went after bin Laden with cruise missiles the Republicans criticized him - look and listen to you now !

[nexgen99]

Ha! Listen to all the liberals cheer for the Taliban! I thought the liberals were saying, Afghanistan absolutely - Iraq no... now it''''''''s something different - heck, if Bush declared that 2 + 2 = 4 we''''''''d be hearing from liberals what a liar he is... and of course all their conspiracy theorists proving how 2 2 does not equal 4...

So Karzai now prefers a different approach eh??? And trying to do an end around thru our liberal media in order to get it? Somehow HE''''''''S now an expert on these matters... perhaps he''''''''d prefer if more of OUR people got killed rather than HIS? F*ck him - let the bombings continue...

Posted by dogsoul at 03:39 PM : Oct 26, 2007

When Clinton went after bin Laden with cruise missiles the Republicans criticized him - look and listen to you now !

Posted by IOWEIGN
=================================

Was that before he refused to take him into custody or after. Clinton screwed up so much I just can''t seem to keep track.

[dogsoul]

"When Clinton went after bin Laden with cruise missiles the Republicans criticized him - look and listen to you now ! "

Because that''s ALL he did was launch a couple missles in his general direction numb skull... Bush did a heckuva lot more than that you moron...

liberals - soooo stupid

It''s a dicey game in trying to help these people. Air strikes are carried out for a reason: they are usually very successful in hitting the enemy. If they weren''t, these missions would not be done. Visit http://www.precisepages.com.

[j-whitman]

dogsoul,,, Here''''s one from your own ''''Right Wing News''''

We Let Bin Laden Get Away -- Again? Col. David Hunt

August of 2007, bin Laden was in a convoy headed south from Tora Bora. We had his butt, on camera, on satellite. We were listening to his conversations. We had the world%u2019s best hunters/killers %u2014 Seal Team 6 %u2014 nearby. We had the world class Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) coordinating with the CIA and other agencies. We had unmanned drones overhead with missiles on their wings; we had the best Air Force on the planet, begging to drop one on the terrorist. We had him in our sights; we had done it. Nice job again guys %u2014 now, pull the *** trigger.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/10/we_let_bin_laden_get_away_agai.php

Is your inability to patriotically challange power cowardice or ignorance ???

[rukindr]

"Ha... liberals calling other people cowards, not THAT''''S rich... yeah butt cramp, it''''s called fighting smart - why risk the lives of your own forces with hand to hand combat when you can obliterate the enemy from afar? Oh yeah... I get it... things that make actual sense don''''t MATTER to you liberals, I almost forgot. We ARE the best at minimizing collateral damage - but we''''re not perfect... I only wish there were some way we could hit liberals instead of the occassional unfortunate civilian - at least THAT way we''''d be hurting Al Queda & the Taliban directly..."

so...you want to kill Americans? Boy you sure are patriotic!

[feelfree1]

dzoffer,

Re: "Air strikes are carried out for a reason:"

Of course. They advance terrorism and increase profits.

[dogsoul]

"so...you want to kill Americans? Boy you sure are patriotic! "

Nope, just liberals... or at least would prefer to see liberals being caught up in collateral bombing damage rather than innocent people. Liberals are actually WORSE than our foreign enemies because of their traitorous betrayal of this great nation...

[papabc]

I say let the Afghan military go into areas in question to see if they need a few bombs.

Their boys get killed or say bomb, we bomb.
Then after bombing they can go in again for clean-up detail.

[dogsoul]

"dogsoul,,, Here''''''''s one from your own ''''''''Right Wing News'''''''' "

Whatever... I''ve heard your stupid conspiracy theory dribble many times - and it always amuses me how the wack jobs like you are ALWAYS liberal... gives me even MORE reassurance that I''m on the right side - whitman, you''re a joke...

[j-whitman]

dogsoul ---- You are a complete NUTBAG --- Enlist & serve your country

[j-whitman]

dogsoul,,,, You are walking against the traffic, you still think you are on the right side ??? --- Keep your eyes closed

[dogsoul]

"Of course. They advance terrorism and increase profits."

Yes yes yes... it''s all some mass conspiracy to drive profits for the rich! Big Oil! The Corporations! Whatever... don''t you stupid liberal conspiracy nut jobs ever get tired of parrotting those same old unfounded mantras left & right? Pretty pathetic... hippie protester ball sack

[dogsoul]

"You are walking against the traffic, you still think you are on the right side ??? "

So was Reagan as you and your liberal media machine did everything and ANYthing to defeat him during the Cold War - well, Reagan perservered and defeated communism & it''s liberal allies... I only hope that likewise, history will one day show how Bush was able to perservere & defeat terrorism & its liberal allies as well....

[j-whitman]

badlilboyfo --- It''s from your own ''Right Wing News'' Dude

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/10/we_let_bin_laden_get_away_agai.php