Tasered Ohio Woman Describes Agony

Police Video Shows Her Being Stunned Even After She Was Handcuffed, In Back Of Cruiser

(CBS/AP)  "Terrified. Crawling for my life. I really did not think I was going to make it," Heidi Gill said on CBS News' The Early Show, referring to being Tasered by a police officer earlier this month.

Ohio police are investigating an officer's use of a stun gun on the handcuffed woman, who fell to the pavement and was knocked unconscious when the officer shocked her.

Video from Patrolman Richard Kovach's cruiser shows him jolting the screaming woman with a Taser electronic device both before and after she was handcuffed.

"The pain just wouldn't stop, it was so much, so much. I just didn't think it was going to stop ever," Gill, 38, told The Early Show co-anchor Hannah Storm Tuesday.

She was arrested Sept. 2 on charges of falsification, assault, resisting arrest, criminal damaging and unauthorized use of a motor vehicle, officials said. She has pleaded not guilty. A hearing is set for Oct. 25 in Warren Municipal Court.

"There's 32 burn circles on my pants alone," Gill said.

"It's just a traumatic thing that I relive every day. At night, I see it. It's just never-ending," Gill said on The Early Show. "The worst thing is the impaired vision. I see two of you right now, sometimes three."

It's also affecting the single mother's ability to take care of her 4-year-old son.

"I can't explain to him why I can't drive. I can't pick him up. I can't play ball with him because I can't see the ball coming towards me. I can't play chase because I get dizzy," Gill said. "I don't know how to deal with what I'm feeling."

Gill had been ordered out of a bar.

"We were at a wedding so we did have some drinks. We went to the bar afterwards with a lot of people from the wedding. We did have drinks and we were dancing, having a really good time," Gill recalled. "The altercation started, you know, some words were exchanged and they asked me to leave and I was fine with that.

"I was leaving the bar, was walking out" when she first encountered Kovach. She kept heading to the parking lot.

A friend had said he would drive her home, and she should wait in his car. She may have gotten into the wrong car.

"I'm just sitting there relaxing, waiting for my ride home and the door swung open, 'Get out of the car.' I said no. I was scared at how abrupt it was," Gill said.

"And then the next thing I know I was feeling this electrocution. I couldn't move let alone get out of the car but I was trying," she said.

Kovach's report said he made several attempts to use the Taser on Gill, but it misfired repeatedly. Once inside the cruiser, his report said, she kicked at a rear window and tried to climb into the front seat, ignoring his commands to stop, the police report said.

"I'm locked in the back of a car of someone that just abused me," Gill said Tuesday, admitting that she was kicking at the police car window.

"I deployed a second Taser cartridge into her and the violent turbulent action stopped immediately," the report said. "I then requested a car with a cage for transport."

She was again stunned during an attempted transfer to the second car. She fell and was knocked unconscious, and an ambulance took her to a local hospital, the report said.

But attorney Mark Hanni says the videotape of the incident tells a different story.

"He Tases her in the back seat of the vehicle after she already calmed down. She had quit kicking at that point and was sitting upright and he started Tasing her," Hanni told Storm. Plus, "He kicked her while she was on the ground. This is just totally unacceptable behavior on the part of anyone, let alone a policeman."

Taser stun guns fire electrically charged darts that carry 50,000 volts for several seconds, temporarily immobilizing their targets. According to Taser International Inc., about 11,000 U.S. law enforcement agencies use Taser technology.

Taser use by police is getting national attention, after video surfaced on the Internet of police shocking a university student in Florida who persistently questioned Sen. John Kerry during a forum and refused to yield the microphone to others. University of Florida President Bernie Machen said the use of the Taser was "regretful." He requested a state probe of campus police actions and placed two officers on leave.

California sheriff's officials are defending their use of a Taser stun gun to subdue an autistic teenager who left a social services center where he was being treated.

"It was necessary," sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said in defense of the use of a Taser stun gun to subdue 15-year-old Taylor Karras.

He said the teen was running in and out of traffic and is lucky to be alive.

"If that were your son, would you want him Tased or hit by a car?" Amormino asked.

But his parents said they believed deputies overreacted.

In Warren, Ohio, Officer Kovach is on paid administrative leave, and the city of Warren is conducting an investigation. Attorney Hanni is calling for Department of Justice and Ohio attorney general investigations

"I don't want anyone else to ever go through this again," Gill said Tuesday on The Early Show.

[germshep1]

Heidi Gill should be ashamed of herself--she has been in trouble with authorities before and yet, this was not covered in your interveiw with her.People that will not listen to authorities(Police) or take directions end up in his situation. If one "throws a fit" then one will get the Taser. Don''t feel sorry for Heidi--and her "false tears" were a turn off. With her lawyer beside her, the "Poor Heidi" is looking to become "Rich Heidi"--and I''m sure as she stated " I just want to get on with my life" that she will do that, while thumbing her nose at the system. Next time you interview this woman--get all the facts--she needs to take responsibility for what she caused in the first place.

Anyone kicking, and frailing around like Heidi got what she deserved. This is her fault.

No sympathy vote here.

Germshep1

[nanoblom]

I cannot believe you gave Heidi so much of your time & attention. Don''t you understand that police officers have to have cooperation of individuals--when an officer tells you to do something you must obey. Maybe Heidi should quit drinking? Why didn''t you ask her what her alcohol level was & does she have a criminal record?

[vivian37-2009]

Tell the entire story! Why are we always given a potion of the story? Reporters today are into making the news not reporting it. Drama is the goal. Would you appear on a morning entertainment show such as this one if you were in this position??? Put Scooby Doo back on in the morning....

[bigmacster1]

Hannah Storm should be censured for such a lame interview. She needed a hanky to stop the tears and softball, "let me help you sue the cop" interview. Is this news or The View? Not a tough question in it. Shame on CBS, maybe Dan Rather is right, no guts.

[dolfo11]

just goes to show why people are afraid to call police,will they help or hurt you,this was a unarmed woman,all she could do was yell or kick,i cant believe she couldnt be subdued instead of torchered,this was a cop who could not wait until he had the chance to really give to to someone,police are not god,what he did was wrong,and he gets paid leave???he should be charged with aggraveted assult with the intent to kill,he should be fired and sent to jail,32 burn holes in her jeans only,just think,if it were a man he would have shot him 20 or thirty times,yes some police make a abd name for the honest hard working men who do deserve the badge.

[ngoodwin7]

Heidi should be ashamed of herself. A tazer cannot kill anybody and it''s sick to listen to her talk about how her life was in danger. I know police officers that have gone through the tazer so that they know what it feels like. A police agency is not going to put their officers'' lives in danger if the tazer could really kill somebody. The tazer only affects your central nervous system. The officer did what they''re trained to do, you''re going to do anything to keep your own life safe, and if she didn''t comply then I''m glad she was tazered. I''m also disappointed that the show said there is an estimated 200 deaths from the tazer; if you look into those cases, the cases were dropped from a tazer causing death to the individual. People need to understand and get the facts.

[devotedmom-2009]

Hooray for all the viewers with some common sense. The good stories are always cut short but a ridiculous amount of time was wasted on a woman looking to get rich by twisting the truth and putting on quite the act. It''s very obvious a lot of relevant facts were left out of this story.

[elijahs_girl]

I am with the first three comments I see here. Is no one even thinking about the fact that this woman is a MOTHER, and that she left her children (or child, you reported she has one then two) somewhere while she went and got so drunk they kicked her out of a bar? Then she is obviously still creating a problem, so they had to call the police? She''s obviously not cooperating with them either, so she is tased. BIG DEAL. Was she going to go home to take over the care of her children like that? Hmm, maybe that should be thought about by the DHS, Child Endangerment.

WHY does the media think they have to try everything in public before the courts anyway? You''re just trying to make her sound not guilty, and Oh poor baby. Psh. She needs to grow up and get a life. I don''t feel sorry for her at all. GET OVER IT HEIDI. Just think, before tasers, they would have just turned the dog on her or shot her. Bet you didn''t think about that, did you? Quit wasting our air waves with that kinda bologna.

But hey, now most of America sees that she''s just a foolish little girl. Way to go.

[rob-intx]

This young woman is is a charter member of the "I''m A Princess" club who think they can behave any way they want to and everyone else MUST agree it is OK. She was so beligerant that she was KICKED OUT OF A BAR. Those folks that run the bar are used to loudmouths. Her actions there must have been pretty severe. Then she was so drunk she didn''t even know if she was in the right car and SHE WAS GONNA DRIVE! She obviously wouldn''t cooperate with a Police officer who was tryin to question her. It also obvious that she refused to cooperate when he tried to subdue her. Then she tried to kick the glass out of his cruiser! When these little "I''m A Princess" twits learn that their childish, self-centered antics create uncomfortable consequences for them, they may just become adult enough to get along in our society. Until then...? Keep the Taser Runnin'' !!!

[bkbates]

Bouncers are usually quite able to evict unwanted patrons from their establishments. The fact that the police were called in the first place speaks to the belligerence that Heidi must have been exhibiting.

The crime here is in not respecting authority and taking responsibility for one''s actions.

This appears to be a very lop-sided report. I am disappointed with the yellow journalism exhibited by CBS here.

[richzurb]

How dare this police officer use any necessary force to control this druken woman. The use of the Taser was totally uncalled for ....he should of taken out his night stick and beaten her into submission. What do people expect the police to do, continue to ask for a persons cooperation even when the inital requests are ignored? She was taserd before and after she was cuffed. Obviously she did not learn her lesson form the first go round, she got what she was asking for. Now the media parades around this woman like she is a saint. She was a druken obnoxious woman who decided to get totally blitzed while her two kids were home. So much for parents spending quality time with their children. I remeber going to many a wedding with my parents. No wonder she is a single mother she has a rotten disposition.

[tim_allred]

If she wouldn''t have been so defiant the officers wouldn''t have tased her. For being a 38 year old woman she sure doesn''t show much more maturity. She is the one who CHOSE to go out drinking and act like an idiot. I trust that the officer made the right decision. It is his job to protect innocent citizens, as well as himself. In a way he was also trying to protect the woman from harming herself or others. I feel that she needs to grow up, and accept the responsibility of her actions.

[rob-intx]

richzurb... you sponge! You see a small snippit of video that the little twit wanted you to see and believed ONLY her side of the story. THINK FOR YOURSELF instead of what the equally twitish CBS "interviewer" want you to think. GOOD GRIEF! Little "Princess" Heidi got what she begged for.

[valerie62]

I''M READING SOME OF THESE OTHER COMMENTS, HA, HA. YOU MUST HAVE A COP IN THE FAMILY. POLICE YES ARE TRAINED FOR BEING IN THE FIELD, WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON SENCE. SHE WAS TREATED UNJUSTLY, IN THE PARTICULAR SITUATION.

[rob-intx]

richzurb... SORRY BRO. I didn''t read your entire post before I responded. Good comment rich.

[Krazcarl]

I was maced in my younger day because I disagreed with the police officers action and said so {they were sent in to bring in some troublemakers and attacked the wrong group because they saw long hair yes the good old days} but some of these pricks like doing things like this, a bad experence. Cops today are above the law. No jury or judge will take the word of a defendant over a cop and they know this. Lets get real. Police couldn''t handle a drunk woman? I hope she wipes that smirk of his face as he shot her with that thing. Lets get honest for the poor and middle class it''s a police state.

[rob-intx]

Hey Valerie... I read your entire post. hehehehe. Did you see and hear EVERYTHING that went on in this event? Or did you just see and hear what little twit Heidi and CBS wanted you to see and hear? Think about that before you accuse a police officer of abuse. And NO... I''m not a cop. Never been one. NEVER WANT TO BE ONE. And the reason? because of people like Heidi the Twit and YOU! Grow up!

[JimTheOwl]

Shame on you people saying this girl deserved to be tortured for more than 10 minutes straight with 50 Thousand Volts of electricity. You people should make sure you go to Church this weekend and beg for forgiveness. I find it amazing that hardly a week goes by and we find our out-of-control police force tasering some poor person into submission. Last week it was an 80 year old grandma being tasered because her lawn was brown! They tasered her because HER LAWN WAS BROWN!!! What in God''s name were these people thinking? Did any of you watch the interview with this poor lady this morning? How do you think you would react to 10 minutes of non stop electrocution by 50 Thousand Volts? Have you seen the data that shows over 500 people have DIED because they were tasered??

[JimTheOwl]

Shame on you people saying this girl deserved to be tortured for more than 10 minutes straight with 50 Thousand Volts of electricity. You people should make sure you go to Church this weekend and beg for forgiveness. I find it amazing that hardly a week goes by and we find our out-of-control police force tasering some poor person into submission. Last week it was an 80 year old grandma being tasered because her lawn was brown! They tasered her because HER LAWN WAS BROWN!!! What in God''s name were these people thinking? Did any of you watch the interview with this poor lady this morning? How do you think you would react to 10 minutes of non stop electrocution by 50 Thousand Volts? Have you seen the data that shows over 500 people have DIED because they were tasered??

[valerie62]

TASER GUNS "DO KILL". TASER GUNS HAVE ALREADY KILLED 2OO PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY. CHECK YOUR FACTS.

[miamirita]

There are two sides to every story, but the video images show a clear over use of this accepted form of treatment of "difficult" assailants. It is clear that a full investigation needs to be made into this occurrence. It is sad that our society accepts this form of punishment as acceptable. The bigger issue is the all too often misuse of power. This abuse has be happening to minorities for decades in the USA. Finnally, a white woman is attacked and thankfully captured on video and now we can all begin to take notice.

[JimTheOwl]

I am ashamed of what has happened to America and her people. We''ve let Gangster Thugs take over the music our children listen to while they spew out songs filled with hatred, abusing wemen and killing people ''just for fun'' over drugs. The Police now have Carte Blanch access to more money than they ever had because the taxpayers did not want to pay for the expensive items the cops want, so now they just take your stuff and sell it or use it so they can raise more money to buy newer gadgets that will HURT YOU and DESTROY YOUR FREEDOM.

[valerie62]

SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TREATED AS A DRUNKED WOMAN, WHICH SHE CLEARLY WAS "NOT" A WANTED CRIMINAL.

[miamirita]

There are two sides to every story, but the video images show a clear over use of this accepted form of treatment of "difficult" assailants. It is clear that a full investigation needs to be made into this occurrence. It is sad that our society accepts this form of punishment as acceptable. The bigger issue is the all too often misuse of power. This abuse has be happening to minorities for decades in the USA. Finnally, a white woman is attacked and thankfully captured on video and now we can all begin to take notice.

[rudy654-2009]

Yep, another example of the police going beyond what is necessary. The problem with tasers is that they are dangerous weapons. Nothing this woman did, deserved this violent response. Don''t expect the police to accept that, as they justify their use of such weapons. As for you people who seem so willing to accept this use of force, minimizing it, you really have no idea of the danger involved. In one school a student brought a taser and tasered another student, just for "fun." That student was out of school for days suffering from chest pains. The student who brought the taser was charged for using a dangerous weapon at school. If this is such a "nice" way to bring people under control, then why don''t you all use them on your children whenever they throw fits? Oh, inappropriate? DUH!!!

[miamirita]

There are two sides to every story, but the video images show a clear over use of this accepted form of treatment of "difficult" assailants. It is clear that a full investigation needs to be made into this occurrence. It is sad that our society accepts this form of punishment as acceptable. The bigger issue is the all too often misuse of power. This abuse has be happening to minorities for decades in the USA. Finnally, a white woman is attacked and thankfully captured on video and now we can all begin to take notice.

[miamirita]

There are two sides to every story, but the video images show a clear over use of this accepted form of treatment of "difficult" assailants. It is clear that a full investigation needs to be made into this occurrence. It is sad that our society accepts this form of punishment as acceptable. The bigger issue is the all too often misuse of power. This abuse has be happening to minorities for decades in the USA. Finnally, a white woman is attacked and thankfully captured on video and now we can all begin to take notice.

[hwy71so]

Typical liberal nonsense. Calling the enforcers guilty and the criminal the victim.

How can we expect our law enforcement personnel to be productive if we continually try to sue them every time they exercise their authority? People need to back off and let them do their jobs.

[Krazcarl]

Thanks Jim the Owl most these folks are ignorant they think getting tased is like briefly touching a electric fence and hope thier support will get them out of there next speeding ticket. They see a pretty lady they can''t date and want to attack her just how the cops felt. I went back and read the post now I see wht bush got the torture thing through so easy there is no compassion for anyone except themselves.

[phil-in-fin]

JimTheOwl, said,

"I find it amazing that hardly a week goes by and we find our out-of-control police force tasering some poor person into submission."

Oh? And all of these "poor people" are just innocently walking down the street, minding their own business, shopping with the kids, eating hamburgers at the local greasy spoon?

And then he said,
"How do you think you would react to 10 minutes of non stop electrocution by 50 Thousand Volts? Have you seen the data that shows over 500 people have DIED because they were tasered??"

If I had been electrocuted, I would be dead. Difficult to tell you how I would feel.

[rudy654-2009]

"Typical liberal nonsense. Calling the enforcers guilty and the criminal the victim."

Typical black booted, fascist response, call anyone who speaks up for the defenseless a liberal and the victim a criminal.

[valerie62]

WELL, 200 OR 500 PEOPLE DIED IN THE USA FROM TASER GUNS. I QUESS I NEED TO CHECK MY FACTS OUT. BUT, TASER GUNS CAN KILL AND DO.

ROB IN TX. WE ARE ALL HERE WITH OUR OWN FEELINGS ON WHAT HAPPENED, WE ARE "NOT" TO "ATTACK" OTHER PEOPLE WHO WRITE IN. SO, WHO ?? NEEDS TO GROW UP ?

[star5462]

Was this really news worthy? A middle aged lady gets hammered, kicked out of a bar and arrested. And guess what? It can''t be her fault!!. Interview the other side. She had to get pretty disgusting to get kicked out or even asked to leave an establishment. Research the whole story before going on National TV with such a waste of time. I guess everyone has a chance at 15 minutes of fame. It would have been a much better story if the interviewer wasn''t so one sided. I''m sure we saw only what CBS edited. There is always 2 sides of a story. I wish they would have covered them both.

[rushlimpdrug]

Looks like the cops are enjoying their new toy.
Tasers are a glorified cattle prod.
They do wonders with keeping cattle in line.
I see how tasers do the same with herds of droned people.
The students at the Florida univesity looked totally like a herd of cattle.
They looked on at the "tased one" as a herd of cattle would do.
So sad to see our country dealt with like cattle.
Let''s (keep) roll(ing).
Rawhide!

[hwy71so]

"Typical black booted, fascist response, call anyone who speaks up for the defenseless a liberal and the victim a criminal.

Posted by rudy654 at 10:33 AM : Sep 25, 2007"

Bet you were raised in a single parent home too. Or you had a step parent. A product of the breaking down of moral fiber in this country.

The media is constantly trying to demonstrate why we don''t need authority and once the loss of authority has been achieved, chaos will result and this country will fall under a new name and a new parent nation of European or Asian origin because we can''t govern ourselves.

[rudy654-2009]

"She had to get pretty disgusting to get kicked out or even asked to leave an establishment. Research the whole story before going on National TV with such a waste of time." Posted by star5462 at 10:35 AM

Are we suppose to believe the police were in danger and had no other options?

[tim_allred]

Yes, if used incorrectly taser guns can kill people, but so can guns and night sticks. Would you have wanted her to climb into her vehicle and tried to have driven her intoxicated self home, putting the lives of your children at risk. I strongly disbelieve her story of waiting for her friend to drive her home. If that were the true story why was she in the drivers seat? People make choices and they need to learn to cope with the consequences of their actions.
She made the choice to go to the wedding, then chose to drink afterwards. At 38 years of age she should have the knowledge of how her body responds to alcohol, if she can''t control herself she shouldn''t be allowed to drink. This is all an example of immaturity and irresponsibility.
HEIDI, YOU NEED TO LEARN WHEN TO STOP. I HOPE YOU ARE FOUND GUILTY AND FACE MORE THAN COMMUNITY SERVICE. YOU NEED TO REALIZE THAT YOUR ACTIONS DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND I BELIEVE THAT MAYBE YOU COULD LEARN SOME RESPONSIBILITY FROM THIS. PLEASE, SET AN EXAMPLE FOR YOUR POOR CHILDREN, ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY. OTHERWISE WHAT ARE TEACHING THEM?
Something to think about!!!

[melorene]

We just lost 3 policemen in my town due to a mad drunk. They are unpredictable and uncontrollable. We only saw one side of this story. I would like to see the video of what happened before she was kicked out. All I saw was 15 minutes of the same 5 second video and the victim not being able to remember anything before or after it happened. Could it be she was drunk on her ***? She''s still mad at the bar and wants revenge at any cost. And any judicial inquiry by anybody will be paid for by us taxpayers. I felt insulted by this story. It was a waste of my time. Could they not get on Springer? If you want to film something interesting, come over to my house and watch my cats use their brand new automatic cat box.

[rudy654-2009]

"Bet you were raised in a single parent home too. Or you had a step parent. A product of the breaking down of moral fiber in this country."

This is what people like you do, make things up in your mind to justify your black booted, fascist thinking. Menso! I was raised in a two parent home, very religious parents, and who are still married!

[lochlan-2009]

Sounds like just another typical bully cop excessively restraining an aggrevated citizen. Typical cops are previous bullies or were "want to be" bullies. They get a thrill out of making people do whatever they want them to because of their legal authority. They feel they are above the law, and usually are in our justice system. We have brotherhoods that say loyalty above legality, unless there''s a camera in their face. When they commit a crime that would land the rest of us in jail with fines that can wipe out an entire citizens savings, they get payed leave (otherwise known as vacation). Badcopnews.com lists hundreds of offenses that our protecting officers have commited and this is just over the last couple of days. Rape, assault, murder, theft, they do it all, and I bet if you were to compare the ratio of cops who commit a crime, compared to the ratio of citizens, depending on the area, we would all be quite shocked.

[eatonj3]

I have been on both sides I have seen what abuse goes on both victim and police. I can not believe that this woman deserved the punishment she received no matter how defiant she was, as large as that cop was he could control her without tasering her 7 or more times, then kicking her when she was down, that was uncalled for. Once she entered the vehicle and waited for a friend she was no longer a threat to anyone. But while in the vehicle she was tasered 3 times, all she was trying to do is get away from the taser, she was then in fear of her life. There is no utterly excuse for the abuse from the police officer. Look at that police officer''s face it says it all, he enjoyed the abuse he was giving out. He was wrong. As big as that policeman was he could not handle this woman. What has our society come to.

[mille260]

If she was thrown out of the bar that means she was already out of control. Then she was going to drive home intoxicated and possibly kill someone else driving drunk. The Officers have a duty to act. If she would have stopped moving and laid there she wouldn''t have been tazered so many times. Intoxicated people are one of the most violent people in custody. She refused to cooperate therefore she was tazed.

[hwy71so]

The problem with HIM subduing HER with his physical power would be that she''d then cry sexual assault.

"HE" enters a no win situation when it is a "SHE" as the assailant.

What do you expect him to do?

You guys are nuts.

[Krazcarl]

hge71so. Normaly I see your post as resonable you sound like a cop to me abiding by the blue code? This makes a lot of your other irrelevent some floks just like those black boots.

[tim_allred]

Well put hwy71so.

[piecekeeper1]

It appears that fair and balanced reporting is no longer the foundation of running a story on CBS. This story disgusts me! I%u2019ve been watching it on TV and there has not been one referral to law enforcement, rather it%u2019s been about how unfairly this woman was treated. The video shows the woman is jacked up on chemicals!! The Taser will drop a 200 pound man like a sack of potatoes. However if there are chemicals in the blood that have the person jacked up (speed, amphetamines, meth, crack%u2026) they will unnaturally fight the tasering. Tell the lady to shut up, stop whining, and thank the cop for not having to resort to a higher level of force.

[mbcsmith]

Kudos to the cops for using restraint and just tasering her. What headline would CBS have if the cop had physically restrined her without using the taser. She sounds like a DRUNK who wouldn''t follow the direction of the cop, and is now looking to hit the lottery.

[lochlan-2009]

"The Officers have a duty to act." Couldn''t agree more. They don''t have a duty over react. That''s illegal.

[janie911]

This was horrible to watch and in my mind a clear abuse of power the police officer should be fired immediately there is no excuse for tasering any human that many times. He should also pay for whatever treatment she needs to recover her eyesight. My thoughts and prays go to the victim and her family.

[mildredspiv]

She wasn''t waiting for a friend in their car and accidentally got into the wrong car. She had run from the cop & hid behind an SUV and tried to hide in it. There were earlier reports of both sides, she was certainly out of line. She is obviously looking for her paycheck from this drunken night of oblivion.

http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=22761