The Left, Changing Course, Goes Pragmatic

The New Republic: The Netroots Miss Their Stokely Carmichael Moment

(The New Republic)  This column was written by Peter Beinart.

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What does Markos Moulitsas have against Mike Gravel? The über-blogger recently called for exiling the longshot presidential candidate from future Democratic debates. "Mike Gravel is a waste of our time," he wrote in an August 7 post. "[He's] a running joke."

That's an odd assessment coming from the founder of Daily Kos. Every time Gravel gets behind a lectern, he flays the Democratic Party for knuckling under to militarists and corporations. In other words, he sounds just like Markos Moulitsas. Gravel was a hero of the anti-Vietnam fight and is arguably the most radical Democrat running for president. (Dennis Kucinich comes close, but Moulitsas doesn't much like him, either.) It's understandable that Moulitsas and his Kossacks wouldn't support a quixotic candidate like the former senator from Alaska, but you'd think they would at least afford him some respect — the way Ralph Reed treated Alan Keyes in 2000. You might even think they would want him on stage, pushing the Democratic debate to the left. Instead, they mock the poor guy. In the most recent poll of Kos readers, he got 1 percent.

Gravel's sin? He's impractical. It's not just that he doesn't have a prayer of becoming president — it's that he doesn't seem to care. The thing that set Moulitsas off was Gravel's discussion of his national sales tax at the YearlyKos presidential debate. Moulitsas disapproves of the tax on its merits, but what really angered him was Gravel's acknowledgement that the proposal would never pass. "At least Kucinich pretends his agenda matters," he fumed. "Gravel won't even give us that courtesy."

It's no secret that Moulitsas cares more about victory than ideology. He's said it repeatedly. But it's worth pausing for a moment to recognize how remarkable this ultra-pragmatism is. As long as there has been an American left, American leftists have been arguing about their relationship to "the system." Can fundamental change come through one of the two major parties, or through the ballot box at all? Or must the system itself be overthrown through some sort of direct action?

For at least a century, this debate has been playing itself out again and again. It's Samuel Gompers versus Bill Haywood in 1905. Walter Lippmann versus John Reed in 1917. Franklin Roosevelt versus Norman Thomas in 1932. Bayard Rustin versus Stokely Carmichael in 1964. Michael Harrington versus Tom Hayden in 1968. Al Gore versus Ralph Nader in 2000. The outsiders have generally lost, but they have been a powerful force. Haywood's Industrial Workers of the World — with its call for a revolutionary general strike — enjoyed real strength in the pre-World War I American West. In 1932, 53 prominent intellectuals, including THE NEW REPUBLIC's Edmund Wilson and Malcolm Cowley, signed a statement demanding "the establishment of a workers' and farmers' government which will usher in the Socialist Commonwealth." And by 1965, after Lyndon Johnson spurned the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and escalated the Vietnam war, much of the New Left abandoned electoral politics in favor of outright resistance.

Today, by contrast, the debate is so lopsided that it barely qualifies as a debate at all. Among the netroots, it's taken as a virtual given that the best way to fundamentally change America isn't just to work through the political system, but through one of the two major parties and, at the presidential level, through mainstream candidates. (Even in 2004, the netroots overwhelmingly favored Howard Dean — who at that point didn't want to withdraw troops from Iraq — over Kucinich, who did.) The netroots aren't infinitely flexible, of course. Had Joe Lieberman won the Democratic nomination in 2004, some might have bailed. But, by historical standards, they're at the pragmatic extreme. Perhaps no progressive movement in U.S. history has so wholly identified itself with one party and with the political system writ large. That's the movement's great strength and, potentially, its greatest weakness.

What explains the netroots' faith in the Democratic Party? First, as Jonathan Chait has noted ("The Left's New Machine," May 7, 2007), they are using the right as a model. Between 1964 and 1980, the conservative movement captured the GOP. And, since then, the divide between movement groups like the Christian Coalition and the party itself has largely disappeared, with right-wing activists taking over the party in state after state. But just because conservatives took over the GOP doesn't explain why the netroots were so confident they could do the same in the Democratic Party. After all, although movement conservatives faced cultural barriers in overthrowing old-guard Rockefeller Republicans, they never threatened the people who paid the party's bills. Indeed, starting in the 1970s, corporate America's new hostility to government regulation meshed nicely with the concerns of the Goldwaterites and Christian conservatives then crashing the GOP's gates. The Democratic Party, by contrast, relies on big donations from people sharply at odds with the economic leanings of the netroots. (Though the netroots may be changing that by becoming a significant source of donations themselves.) After the 1990s — when Democrats became more dependent on corporate money and Bill Clinton pushed an aggressive free-trade agenda — it would have been reasonable for some on the left to argue that a progressive movement couldn't take over the Democratic Party in the way conservatives took over the GOP, and that the anti-corporate left needed to build a party of its own.

In fact, someone did make that argument: Ralph Nader. And herein lies another explanation for the netroots' devotion to the Democrats. There have been lots of progressive third-party candidates in U.S. history — Eugene Debs, Robert La Follette, Norman Thomas, Henry Wallace — all arguing that, even if they didn't win, they would push American politics to the left. Whether they succeeded is debatable. But, until Nader, no progressive third-party candidate had dramatically pushed American politics to the right — as Nader did when he helped elect George W. Bush. In the process, he discredited progressive third parties for a generation. Had Nader — once a liberal icon — showed up at YearlyKos, he probably would have been booed.

[cfin5]

This is the best the DNC could come up with during the summer huddle? A DumberNcraptiC kvitchurbitchenfest?!......COOL! Carl Rove must be more of a genius than I thought retiring early like that. Maybe you can let off the gas peddle before you cross the finish line, but I don''t recommend it..........Ron Paul, the un-socialist in 2008!

[sharncedar]

So the "Daily KOS" is the "left". Talk about a straw man argument! In a straw man argument, you set up a straw man, that is a phony character, then knock him down. Bush does this often, with his "some people want to surrender to Al Quaeda, but I don''t".

Here we have the set up of a straw man representing something called the left. Then we are told what a bunch of compromising hypocrites they are.

Let''s examine their definition of the left. The left is a term that came from the left side of the podium in the French assembly during the French revolution, where the radicals who wanted to kill all rich people, rather than most of them, or as th far right believed just beat them and take their property, they sat near each other and it was to the left of the podium. As thing progressed, and they the beat them and take their money position of the far right fell out of favor, it became more fashionable and safer to sit further and further left.

So "Daily KOS" the "left"? Do they believe in killing all rich people, or just most like the centrists? Not hardly. They are the far, far right, outside the building - little toe-licking snots.

[skyk-2009]

You have to hand it to today''s McCarthy Clone''s, they do not give up easy, but give up they will. This nation now see''s them for what they are and see the hate and division politics of the Right for what it''s always been. For whatever reason the right has NEVER, since the very first, figured out where the strenght of this nation comes from. That''s probably the reason you will NEVER hear one of the quote an old dead Rightwinger... they don''t dare because those dead one''s were no different than the alive one''s. This nation, as FDR showed Hitler and his Axis, is strong ONLY when it''s UNITED. When Japan attacked us did FDR go before the public and insult the Conservatives who had fought him for years in helping Britian? OF course not, although I''m sure he would have loved too. Why? Because he, unlike the Right Wingers, knew that this nation could not fight a war with a radical Right fanatic, Hitler, and have American''s feeling left out of the process. NOT ONCE during that period did FDR EVER say "you are with me or against me"! It does look like these pathetic losers would after over 200 years FINALLY get the message, but NOOOOOOOOO!! They continue to attack and demonize ANYONE who dares not march to the Party''s Line... Fascism does NOT work in America, it only serves to weaken us!!

[cfin5]

skyk,......I would suggest you tell your own party to clean up their own house before lecturing conservatives on political mean spiritedness. Especially some of your like-minded commentors here. Besides, that''s always the "Oh, why can''t we all just get along" card you play when your about to lose.........Conservatives went through that just before ''06 elections and are now ready for "08. When you clean house you most likely will lose the next battle, yet win the next war.

[condumism]

cbsnews.com: cleary the VOICE of American''s FASCIST CORPORATE media, reporting only from the REICHT WINGED FASCIST PERSPETIVE.

[myidoncbs]

I liked the phrase: "an idealist in a post-utopian age". But SharnCedar got it right: "DailyKOS" is not "the Left".

There is no "Left" or "Right" wing today, but there are many, many people who realize that the NeoCons are utterly full of $h!t, and that this country can''t survive with a ret*rded Armageddon-lover playing president while his paranoid NeoCon puppet master pulls the strings.

[cfin5]

MYIDonCBS,......I don''t feel tardy!

[lawyertom1]

If the Democrats want to continue on their winning streak, they need to embrace the DLC. The majority of Americans are pragmatic, freedom loving, tolerant, middle of the roaders.

How does that translate? Strong defense [the ghost of Scoop Jackson and Charlie Vanick]. Work with our allies to contain the dangers in the world. Responsible fiscal and budget policies. No tax give-aways to the ultra-rich [bring back the Paris Hilton tax (aka Death Tax -- no trust funds for airheads); make them work]. Tax policies that encourage business growth and savings; use all policy, fiscal, and tax means to encourage job growth. National health care [several reasons: no reason to let every other industrial country have a competitive advantage; help the poor, in other words, be truly Christian in our charity]. Protect the environment. Dah. Repair our infrastructure. Start thinking green and sustainable; it is nowhere near as simple as folks think, but we can do it. Improve schools [we should be appalled; if necessary, take on the unions -- sorry teachers, but you are becoming part of the problem; I use to love you, but then I had to deal with schools; awful, awful, awful]. Ignore the quasi-socialist left nuts and the totalitarian right.

Only the ideologues on the left and right fail to see reality. Too much theory and philosophy; too little connection to what works.

[erichsh]

ConDumism, I''ve seen many of your posts before and it''s clear what you think of Republicans, etc. But try to take a step back from criticism for a second and answer this - who is your ideal candidate for President? What leaders out there (whether in this country or elsewhere in the world) most closely embrace what your vision of this country would be?

[sharncedar]

"Work with our allies to contain the dangers in the world."

Hey lawyer tom the first time I read this I thought you said, "work with our allies to create the dangers in the world". That made more sense to me. ain''t that really whatchall are doing, creating dangers, to create smokescreens for globalization? So people don''t notice that they no longer can afford a house, you create some wars, so that people don''t notice they are paying $500 billion a year for a defense industry that doesn''t defend anyone, you prop up some poor Arabs in the desert as if they were the bogeyman?

"Work with our allies to create the dangers in the world." I like it.

[skyk-2009]

Conservatives went through that just before ''''06 elections and are now ready for "08. When you clean house you most likely will lose the next battle, yet win the next war.
Posted by cfin5 at 12:59 PM : Aug 26, 2007
+ report abuse

It''s not MEAN Spiritedness.. it''s just FACT. When the citizens of your ONLY ally, Britian, think your leader is a Fascist worse than the leader of North Korea, I''d say you have cleaning enough to last 40 or 50 years, which is about how long you losers are out of power! You never responded to the points made in my post I would guess for good reason. The TRUTH remains that the Republican Party is TODAY dominated and run by Southern Fascist... they do not know how to run elections without hate and division. The problem with that is, as we have all seen with the Rove tactics, you can''t govern. No, I''d say you folks have seen your last tour of governing until at least two generations are passed... that''s about how long it has taken in the past. That''s about how long it took for folks to forget McCarthy!

[standlee5]

I agree there is no right or left. That''s why neither Edwards nor Hunter has a chance. We''re already global and just go throught he motions to pretend to be a democracy.

[standlee5]

Multinational business probably have more say in the presidential election than we do with our vote.

[feelfree1]

Referring to groups like the "Daily Kos" as the "left", is disinformative and pathetic.

The "Daily Kos", "Moveon.org", and other mainstream liberal groups, are little more than a different flavor of those who see a future in supporting big corporate and AIPAC interests.

Unless the U.S. public is able to muster the courage to reject the false choices of the 2 dominant Corporate/AIPAC-owned parties, we are doomed, and we may well have the government that we collectively deserve.

[feelfree1]

Re: "But, until Nader, no progressive third-party candidate had dramatically pushed American politics to the right %u2014 as Nader did when he helped elect George W. Bush. In the process, he discredited progressive third parties for a generation."

Democrats are truly a craven and dishonest group, as a whole. There is not a single Democrat who has earned the standing to criticize an American with the integrity and achievements of Ralph Nader.

Besides that, the Democrats are only recently waking up to the vote fraud efforts that robbed their pathetic corporate-owned Presidential candidates of victory in 2000, and in 2004.

They will argue that Bush came to power by way of election fraud in Florida in 2000, and then in Ohio in 2004, both of which are well documented. But when you mention Ralph Nader, these dishonest and cowardly opportunists in the Democrat Party revert right back to blaming him for their own dismal failures, insisting that nobody that their craven organization does not approve should be allowed to run.

The Democrat apologists have spent years blaming Ralph Nader for their own incompetence and impotence, and have gone on to prove that every single criticism of the Democrats made by Ralph Nader, has been 100% accurate, and very well deserved.

[socrates392]

"Improve schools [we should be appalled; if necessary, take on the unions -- sorry teachers, but you are becoming part of the problem; I use to love you, but then I had to deal with schools; awful, awful, awful]. Ignore the quasi-socialist left nuts and the totalitarian right."

Posted by LawyerTom1 at 02:55 PM : Aug 26, 2007

Hey, LawyerTom1, I am a teacher. When you and all the other tax payers start paying me and other teachers as much as you, LAWYERtom make . . . maybe then you can start complaining about teachers unions!

The way I see it, you get paid far too much to for your ambulance chasing-- I think you''re part of the problem. Stop blaming hard working teachers for trying to do their jobs and take a look at yourself for a second.

[lawyertom1]

SharnCedar. Part 1.

I rarely like to get into debates over the obvious, but in this case I will make a couple of comments. Think Darfur, Rwanda, Burundi, Ivory Coast, Liberia, just to name a few examples where either the past or current failure to act has lead to hundreds of thousands to over a million deaths in each location [joint action has shown success often, for example in the former Yugoslavia and East Temor where unified action was effective]. It is too bad that you think globalization when I am advocating saving millions of our fellow humans, action that takes many countries acting together diplomatically, economically, and yes militarily, if only because there is so much death and destruction over such a geographically diverse area. Smell the carnage, and curse those who fail to act. Sometimes military, diplomatic, and humanitarian action, done together and jointly with allies, makes a lot of sense. [Iraq is such a joke it is hard to know where to begin. Suffice it to say that it was, how can I be oh so polite, ill-planned and conceived, ill-executed, an ego trip for the Shrub, and a complete waste (though Sadam was a war criminal and definitely deserved to be hung).]

Given your obsession with the false boggieman of globalization, there are two not so simple steps that I commend to your contemplation. One, get rid of all agricultural subsidies, period. If the farmer is truly poor, then give him/her welfare, but most of the rest is a waste.

[lawyertom1]

Part 2. Open up our markets to those of the poor and undeveloped to help them grow their economy; no tariffs, no barriers. That type of globalization will help the unfortunate, even while you carry your placards against some poorly managed Fortune 200 who overpays its executives. Second, forget tied or commodity based aid. Give cash. Let purchases be made to help local markets grow. Yes, markets, trade, global interaction can help, if done correctly.

Obviously, as recent experience has shown, we will need to increase significantly the regulatory capability of the FDA, USDA, and Customs, because unfortunately some arses will try and cut health and safety corners [like that never happens here... parish the thought].

There is nothing wrong with global trade, only with the distorted policies and programs we have in place.

Stop pretending that big companies are the sole evil in the world. There are some really, really bad and crazy folks out there. Perhaps dinner with the Lords Resistance Army or Charles Taylor, when he was free, or Sadam, when he was alive, would help to make your day. You might even leave the meal with most of your bodily appendages, but then perhaps not.

"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." Aesop.

[lawyertom1]

socrates392. Thanks for the uninformed shot. You have no idea what type of law I practice, nor what type of clients I assist. I probably accomplish more to benefit the public and protect their health and welfare in a week than you do in a lifetime. Nice try, no cigar.

I have watched and dealt with the unions and school administrators, and I am disgusted. Schools in the hood are wretched, and those in the burgs are barely better. Classes are dumb-downed to the lowest common denominator, and rarely are the truly gifted helped. The curriculum is a yawn. Why do you think that on any reasonable scale of comparison U.S. students rate so poorly? Only until you get to the University level do you see us excel.

Yes, there are a few good teachers, perhaps you are one. Thank god I had some of them. But, with all due respect, they are too few. There is a lot of dreck that we cannot get rid of, and so we condemn our children to their malfeasance. I have taught at all levels, from elementary to post-grad level [I hate being bored]. I have dealt with supposedly the best public and private schools.

Throw all the abuse you want my way. I will still sleep soundly tonight. But, the educational system needs to be torn up and started over from scratch. We leave too many behind, and waste good minds like there is no tomorrow. We squander resources. It is really sad. It needs to be changed.

[feelfree1]

LawyerTom1,

It sounds like you are championing many of the very same neo-liberal/neo-conservative policies that got us into the mess that we currently find ourselves in.

Re: "(though Sadam was a war criminal and definitely deserved to be hung)"

You sound like you don''t have much respect for the rule of law, or for the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". Neither the media nor a kangaroo court installed under the boot of an illegal invasion qualifies as a legitimate venue for this determination.

I very much wish that Saddam was still alive, as he would be an extremely valuable witness in the war crimes tribunals against the Bush global terror network.

You sound like an apologist for the Democrats- the other Corporate/AIPAC-owned Party.

[xzavierbrown]

I very much wish that Saddam was still alive, as he would be an extremely valuable witness in the war crimes tribunals against the Bush global terror network.

You sound like an apologist for the Democrats- the other Corporate/AIPAC-owned Party.

Posted by FeelFree1 at 10:15 PM : Aug 26, 2007
+ report abuse

*******

so you agree that the DNC is weak and incompetent?? and Nancy Pelosi is a sausage wallet? liberals..divided they fall

[lawyertom1]

FeelFree1. Surely you are not saying let millions die so you can sit in your comfortable chair and throw brickbats at the Shrub and his team of idiots? It is a Hobsian world. We are blessed, which is why I hate the totalitarian policies of the current idiots, policies that do nothing to make us safer. Your rhetoric belies a disconnect from reality, of the type that some find comforting. Perhaps you do. Achieving positive results is very hard. Clearly you have no practical idea how to make the world better, only to rant about the failures of the idiots currently in charge. When you realize that ideology gets you nowhere, except among your cohort of fellow travelers, try considering what can be done to make life better for the vast majority, both at home and abroad.

[feelfree1]

LawyerTom1,

Re: "Surely you are not saying let millions die so you can sit in your comfortable chair and throw brickbats at the Shrub and his team of idiots?"

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here, or how it relates to me.

Re: "Clearly you have no practical idea how to make the world better, only to rant about the failures of the idiots currently in charge."

And you reached this sweeping generalization and summary judgement based on my one comment to you?

Are you serious?

[timothyone-2009]

A winning Netroots candidate will have the threat of mobilizing his/her already antsy base. It will then be the threat itself at the helm of government. That win will carry the message "NOW F**K WITH US".

[ekswitaj]

I wonder about the definition of pragmatic being used here. Contributing to the victory of a candidate who does not share progressive values in the name of some distant hope of taking over a party doesn''t seem like a particularly pragmatic course of action to me.

[brianbwb-2009]

The exchange between Socrates392 and LawyerTom1 illustrates how the obfuscation generated by the government - influenced media can incite even intelligent people to argue over the symptoms of a cold rather than addressing the root cause, corruption.

Teachers aren''t paid well because the states steal the money allocated for education, and the unions heads are simply bought off. Lawsuits prevail because in this "get rich by whatever means" zeitgeist, coupled with corporate greed and the aforementioned corruption, make it close to impossible to make a living the taking the "honest hard work" route.

It seems every eight years, the "right" moves ever farther into fascism, then the media pushes the left to follow, in order to capture the "mainstream".

"Conservatives" now accept deficit spending to finance an illegal war, that notion would have been heresy, as would have the abrogation of constitutional rights.

Liberals have given up the advocacy of worker rights, civil rights, equal opportunity and social responsibility, even going along with extending our illegal wars, also heresy.

There is no difference, save the labels...

[usaisdway189]

One of the guys invited as a special guest along with Hillary Shrew and Boy Obama to the Daily Kostroite hate fest was a bloke by the name of Andy Stern.

Stern is the head of the SEIU 660 union, an organization which you CANNOT leave if other workers vote it in, an organization which takes your wages, and it is mandatory.

An organization that claims to fight for the workers, but has often left them high and dry and defenceless against management. I know.
In L.A. County they declared a victory while at least two unions were still trying to get adequate c-o-s wages from management. Stern''s cronies walked away, leaving the County department to fend for itself. Result - part-time workers in that department lost medical benefits that they had worked hard to get.

While all that time Andy Stern was fighting - on the golf course - to get money, not for the workers, but for one John Kerry.

Stern and 660 - hypocrites, liars, and anti-American. And ANTI-WORKER. Just like Markos the Stalinist and his fascist Blame-America, Jew-baiting friends at the Daily Kostroite.

[usaisdway189]

Andy Stern and Markos Moulistis'' mantra.

All workers are created equal, but some workers -pigs - are more equal than others.

Who caused 9/11? The United States of America because it didn''t give money or arms to Islamonazi terrorist.

Who is the greatest threat to world peace? Those dam Jooz.

Arise ye Nazis of starvation, arise ye Islamoappeasers of the earth.

[usaisdway189]

Most Greek people are wonderful and have brains, beauty, and intelligence.

They also have a visceral hate of totalitarism.

So...I just wonder what happened in the families of Arianna Huffington, Markos Mousilitas and George Stephanopolis''???

All of them have the intelligence - and stench - of pig manure.

lol.

[usaisdway189]

Most Greek people are wonderful and have brains, beauty, and intelligence.

They also have a visceral hate of totalitarism.

So...I just wonder what happened in the families of Arianna Huffington, Markos Mousilitas and George Stephanopolis''???

All of them have the intelligence - and stench - of pig manure.

lol.

[feelfree1]

USAisdway189,

Please get up to speed.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[brianbwb-2009]

"So...I just wonder what happened in the families of Arianna Huffington, Markos Mousilitas and George Stephanopolis''''??? Posted by USAisdway189"

Money. It never fails to corrupt, just ask Babs Bush.

[mike71067]

Great. Seven of the eight DNC presidential candidates appearing at the left-wing fringe Daily Kos convention. I guess we now know which group of sicks now owns the Dumbocrat party. You know, there used to be the mainstream left, and the kooky left. Now it seems that fringe groups like MoveOn.org have taken over the party, and there is no mainstream left anymore - it''s been replaced by the kooky left.

[usaisdway189]

Ahhhh, FeelJihadi is here. Thought he''d be in Beirut fighting alongside his fellow roaches...

Surprised though, that another "true believer"
Brian, agrees with me though. It is money - just as in the case of the Left Fascist Pig Andy Stern and his bogus SEIU 660.

But it is Mike who puts the icing on the cake. Thanks to pro-Islamonazi organizations like MoveOn.Org - supposedly created as a "non-partisan" group - lol - to defend the pervert and draft dodging bomber of Serbs, and Markos the Nutcase''s Daily Kostroite, the Democratic Party has been taken over by Anti-Semites, Neo-Nazis, former Klansmen and their real Plantation Slave lackeys like Boy Obama and Hymietown Jackson, and a bunch of non-serving cowards like Reid, Pelosi, Dean, Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, the Clintons and others who blatantly lie when they claim "they support the troops" - Osama''s perhaps, not America''s.

The Democratic Party - an adjunct branch of the American Nazi Party, courtesy of MoveOn.Org and the Daily Kostroite.

[prinzowhales]

KOS is simply another centrist organization like MoveOn used by the Establishment to set bounds on political debate. I call them "ropers"...like the Buchananites on the right, they try to round up straying dissenters and bring them back to the mainstream herd... back to casting the "lesser of two evils"-vote that keeps the Establishment in power.

If the Establishment candidates win--the American people loose. Moulitsas, with his CIA background, is rather like Gloria Steinem and ''Billy Blythe'' Clinton--prostituting themselves for the Establishment.

[den_q_public]

I think the whole lib/conservative thing is wearing thin. No more real controversy here, just more name calling and attack ads. What is a ''centrist'' anyway, some one who plays the ends against the middle? In the end, what is it that YOU really want, compared to what you really NEED compared to what you END UP WITH. In reality, you get what you get regardless of who''s pretending to run the show. The "right" end up with a few goodies this time, next time the "left" will remove them or get their own goodies. In a funny kind of way, the "New" Republic isn''t really new at all, but dancing to an old tune. Should probably look a little harder at what they really got this time around, can''t really pin it on a donkey..even though a few DID donate some of their hide to political science. lol
(you know, clean up your own closet kids, too many toys in there to find any actual tools of the trade off.Begs the question of "who" is really being "Pragmatic", what ever that is supposed to mean?)

[infidel_us]

I can hardly wait for the REAL race to get started. That''s when the RNC will start pulling out film of these ultra leftwing DNC condidates at this kook convention. Watching their collapse is going to be glorious! :)

[sharncedar]

How much longer will they be able to play this fake left versus fake right thing to confuse the voters. It seemed old to me 10 years ago, I guess I have to dumb down a little more to understand the American voter. Maybe I ned to drink more, a few six packs, then bash my head against a brick wall for few hours, and perhaps I''ll be dumb enough to think that Hillary Clinton is a populist and George Bush is a fiscal conservative.

Let''s see, George Bush, the president who expanded the size of the government more than any other president, let''s see, Hillary Clinton, the rabid pro-war candidate who a week ago said the surge was working.

Gee I''m feeling sumb now. Ouch (bang) ouch (bang). Yes, I see it - we have to get out and vote for our guy, the liberal/conservative, so the liberal/conservative we hate doesn''t get into power. Yes, that makes sense. Please, raise my taxes and kill my children in Iraq, just don''t let the liberal/conservative be president.

[Razzl]

While there''s a lot of good material here if one were attempting to write a history of American leftism, it''s just a wrong way of looking at it to believe that today''s Progressives and internet liberals are somehow plugged into that long stream of ideological history and therefore somehow always in danger of destabilizing into primitive leftism. I got the impression, working continuously on college campuses, the best place to see the intellectual development of liberalism, that the Reagan years pretty much put an end to serious political leftism for a while. By the early ''90''s one would not have found young leftists passing out pamphlets in Central Square in Cambridge or running small bookstores; all historical continuities of radical leftism were broken. By the time the overlapping generations of liberals saw the need to revive politics in our lives because of Bush the youngest generation had before them the example of Bill Clinton, who cleverly preserved the public sector with his veto while knitting American capitalism into the world economy. Those of us who witnessed the prior generations through Vietnam were educated enough to see the wisdom of that pragmatic approach.

No, today''s generation of "netroots" liberals were not distilled from previous generations, most having no direct contact with prior movements, so much of the analysis above is invalid even though fascinating in its detail...

[jimmyc1955]

Prinzowhales - I am curious what exactly what positions or policies that a true "peoples" candidate would hold?