Atheists Make A Case Against God

Comedienne Julia Sweeney Talks About Giving Up On Religion

(CBS)  Whether or not God exists is perhaps the most perplexing of life's cosmic questions. It is a debate each of us has probably grappled with at one time or another.

For former "Saturday Night Live" star Julia Sweeney, giving up on religion was anything but easy.

"I had spent so much time thinking about what God meant, I hadn't really spent any time thinking what 'Not-God' meant," she told CBS News correspondent Thalia Assuras. "There was this teeny-weeny voice whispering inside my head, I'm not sure how long it had been there but it suddenly got just one decibel louder and it whispered, 'There is no God.' I tried to ignore it but it got a little louder. 'There is no God, there is no God.' Oh God, there is no God! It was terrifying. You know, it was a terrifying moment to let go of that idea."

Sweeney's most famous "SNL" character was Pat, the gender-confused character who later starred in her own movie.

Even more confusing for Sweeney personally was religion. She comes from a large Irish-Catholic family. But in her 30s, Sweeney says she began a spiritual quest. It led her away from any notion of God — a conversion she turned into a monologue, soon to be released as a film called "Letting Go of God."

But of course, many people would disagree with Sweeney, especially her mother, Geri. She said it was a great shock that her daughter decided that there wasn't enough evidence for her to believe in God.

"I just couldn't believe that she had gotten to that place. I'm Catholic. I intend to continue to be Catholic," Geri Sweeney said. "I think the Catholic Church is a wonderful place."

As a result of her decision about God and religion, Julia Sweeney fell out of touch with her parents.

"They both said they weren't going to speak to me anymore," she said. "My dad said, 'I don't think you should even come to my funeral.' After I hung up I thought, 'Just try and stop me!'"

Julia Sweeney is clearly in the minority in this country. From the classroom with the "Pledge of Allegiance" where students declare that the United States is "one nation under God"; to the world of politics where candidates constantly reference religion; even in the movies like "Evan Almighty, God is everywhere.

In a recent CBS News poll, 82 per cent of Americans said they believe in God — 9 percent in a universal spirit. Just 8 percent say they don't believe in either. They are a small minority, but lately, it seems, an increasingly vocal one.

A new crop of books, written by atheists, is on the bestseller list. For example, "God Is Not Great" by journalist Christopher Hitchens. He believes that nothing is sacred. He aggressively attacks organized religion.

"There are unethical things that people do because of religion they wouldn't do without it," he said. "Mutilating the genitals of their children, blowing themselves up in the attempt to murder other people, banning books, burning each other's churches — things that an atheist wouldn't do."

Atheism, Hitchens says, is the view that there is simply not enough evidence to show that God exists.

"Thus those who claim to know of, by definition, are mistaken," he said. "Well, because those who are religious claim not only that there is a God, which they cannot know, but they claim to know His mind and His instructions, which is much more than any human being can claim to know."

Hitchens believes religion, no matter which faith, no matter where in the world, can bring out the worst in us. Take, he says, his birthplace Northern Ireland.

"... where the Christians kill each other happily and reduced the whole level of society to one of practically underdevelopment," he said.

Also consider the Middle East — the cradle of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Hitchens has traveled widely in the region.

"To be a foreign correspondent and to go to countries that could and should be civilized and to see them torn to shreds and their culture reduced to beggary and misery by religion is an education I wish everyone could have," Hitchens said.

But Stephen Prothero, who chairs the religious studies department at Boston University, says that atheists miss the fact that religion, while being a source of some terrible evil, is also the greatest force for good.

"And so, if you're gonna criticize — you know, religious people for the Inquisition, then you need to praise them for the civil rights movement," he said. "You need to praise them for getting rid of slavery in the United States, which they did. You can't sort of have it both ways. And similarly, if you're going to praise atheists for these things, you need to criticize the Stalinists. I mean, some of the most murderous regimes that we've had in the 20th century were atheistic regimes."

In his recent book "Religious Literacy," Prothero argues Americans, though religious, actually know little about any faith, let alone their own. And he says while religion has always been a dominant force in American society, lately, it's become much more confrontational.

"We used to have a sort of gentlemen's agreement that religion was private," he said. "And so, if you were against religion, you wouldn't trash the religion of your neighbors — that's sort of un-American and sort of intolerant. But once religion moved into the public arena, anti-abortion or things like that, then it's almost the duty of atheists who are opposed to the religious right to step in and say, 'You know, religion is idiotic. You know, God doesn't exist.' You know, 'Why are we talking about the Bible? It's a pack of lies.'"

It's possible no atheist was more outspoken than the late Madalyn Murray O'Hair. In the 1960s, O'Hair argued all the way to the Supreme Court that forcing her children to pray and read the bible in their public school was unconstitutional. She won.

O'Hair was vilified by many. Ellen Johnson, head of the organization that O'Hair founded, American Atheists, says the stigma persists.

"Atheists are everywhere," Johnson said. "Atheists are your police officers. They are your physicians. They are your teachers. They are your children. We know who the atheists are; unfortunately they're in the closet. But to the people who don't know that, atheists are just your unpatriotic, un-American immoral person."

A Gallup poll not long ago found 44 percent of Americans view atheists harshly and 53 percent said they would never elect an atheist president. The number of people who say they belong to no organized religion, while still small, has been growing. And about 3/4 of us confess to not going to church every week — and that's the easy stuff. We haven't even gotten to following the Ten Commandments. To some, that suggests religion is little more than a habit — a comfortable place to be.

Julia Sweeney says she simply cannot believe in God because of a lack of evidence, but Prothero says that is where faith comes in.

"I have no trouble saying that, you know, we can't prove the existence of God," he said. "I think most Americans feel the same way."

Julia's mother Geri says she was taught in second grade that there was no proof that God exists.

"It doesn't matter a bit to me," she said. "I have a very personal relationship with my God and I don't need any proof. I'm not searching for proof — and she is."

On the plus side, Julia and her family are talking again. They've simply agreed to disagree about religion. But Geri confesses that she still holds out hope.

"I think she will come back," she said.

"I can't say what the future will hold," Julia said, "But I'd be very surprised!"

[godlessgeek-2009]

devinwin1,

Refer to my earlier posting. Using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning. You can''t say that something is true simply because it says it is. Using the Bible to try to convert an atheist to Christianity is going to meet with the same response every time. I don''t believe there is a god, therefore, there is no way a book could be inspired by a god.

Please remember when you are speaking to an atheist, most of us have been exposed to religion our wholes lives, and many of us are quite knowledgeable in scripture and doctrine. In many cases it is this knowledge that led us to our conclusions. I''d wager that a thorough reading of the Bible has created more atheists than anything else you can name.

[devinwin1]

The Psalmist gave us the answer to this to those that have wisdom and it is found in Psalm 53:1-3
''The fool has said in his heart "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Everyone of them has turned aside; they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no ,not one.''
Another serious situation is the fool that causes men to stumble and your article would probably cause some to stumble. Jesus says in Mark 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."

Take heed and don''t be a fool.

[metalfan666]

Genesis 19

30And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

[metalfan666]

1 That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there, and when he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed with his face to the ground. 2 %u201CMy lords,%u201D he said, %u201Ccome to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up early in the morning and be on your way again.%u201D

%u201COh no,%u201D they replied. %u201CWe%u2019ll just spend the night out here in the city square.%u201D

3 But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. Lot prepared a feast for them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast, and they ate. 4 But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. 5 They shouted to Lot, %u201CWhere are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have *** with them!%u201D

6 So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. 7 %u201CPlease, my brothers,%u201D he begged, %u201Cdon%u2019t do such a wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish. But please, leave these men alone, for they are my guests and are under my protection.%u201D

[metalfan666]

"Blessed are the merciful" [Matthew 5:7]
"Leave alive nothing that breathes. Show them no mercy." [Deut. 7:2]
"The Lord hardened their hearts... that they might receive no mercy." [Joshua 11:20]
"I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord''s work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

[metalfan666]

"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles... If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink... He who rejoices at calamity shall not go unpunished." [Prov. 24:17; 25:21; 17:5]
"The Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you" [Deut. 28:63]
"The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance, he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked" [Ps. 58:10]

[metalfan666]

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)


"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"the whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

"Jacob said, ''I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.''" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)

[metalfan666]

Our final installment of guess that deity is about to begin, so buckle up:

todays deity was:

born of a virgin on December 25th, had 12 disciples and performed miracles, was referred to as ''the truth'' and ''the light''. Was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. The sacred day of worship for this particular day is sunday.

Now that could only be one deity that I know. Thats right, it''s Mithra, a Persian god predating Jesus by 1200 years.

Isn''t it odd that all these deity''s, present in different times and places throughout the earth - who''s followers and believers are as adament they are real as everyone else is about their god/s - all seem to have a similar mythological structure? go to zeitgeistmovie.com, watch from about the 16th minute and you will find your answer. While you are at it, watch the whole film - it may open your mind a little.

[metalfan666]

Now for our fourth episode of guess that deity and boy haven''t we had some fun.

Our deity for this episode was:

born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine. Was known as "king of kings", "gods only begotten son", "Alpha and Omega" and upon his death was resurrected.


Oooooh.. thats a tough one. Why its obviously Dionysus, of 500 BCE

[metalfan666]

Time for a second installment of guess that deity.

Todays deity was:

born of a virgin December 25th, crucified, was dead for three days and subsequently resurrected.

Any takers? Thats right, it was Attis, a god from greece that PREDATES JESUS BY 1200 YEARS.

[griggs1947]

Faith is the mere I just say so of credulity. One should read the copious information on evolution @ Talk Origins rather than show ones invincible ignorance!An no atheist has to be omniscient to see through the faulty arguments for God.

[metalfan666]

Welcome to the first installment of name that deity. Alright contestants, first up is a deity that:
was born of a virgin on December 25th.
three kings followed a star in the east signaling his arrival.
was a prodigal teacher at 12 baptized at 30 and began ministry.
traveled with 12 disciples performing miracles such as healing sick and walking on water.
Was known as gods anointed sun, the lamb of god, the truth, the light, the good shepherd.
Was betrayed by disciple, crucified, dead for three days and then was resurrected.


Thats right shoppers, it was HORUS, an Egyptian sun god who predates Jesus by 3000 years

[metalfan666]

"What about the sun%u2019s position in relation to the earth. If it was just a smidgen off we would either freeze or burn up. Could that have happened by chance?"

As you are probably unwilling to learn and incapable of understanding, the earth''s orbit around the sun is hardly a perfect circle, it is elliptical meaning it is present at different distances from the sun at different points of time. Due to the inverse square law, larger fluctuations would still provide a stable living environment. Even so, if earth weren''t in this supposed perfect orbit, we would have evolved for that climate. Thats right, EVOLVE. It''s just a theory? Thats just it''s NAME!!! Otherwise how do you explain the emergence of antibiotic resistant microbial lifeforms, or even the bacteria/fungi that can live INSIDE A NUCLEAR REACTOR.
Another question, if god can do anything, then why doesn''t he answer the prayers of amputee''s and grow their limb back? You see evangelicals everywhere claiming "god cured me of my cancer/diabetes/pain" but he doesn''t seem to be able to put an arm back on. What''s the matter god, is that one a bit hard for you? Or did you plan and design for your creations to be limbless?

[godlessgeek-2009]

"Unbelievers are not willing to do that they want to spoil our belief. "

Not directly, no. You can believe if you want, but I wish that real scientific discovery wasn''t being held back by laws inspired by faith-based belief.

"I see God as the Greatest Designer and Builder of all time"

Your idea of good design greatly differs from mine then. Why is the entirety of the universe that we can see completely uninhabitable other than this one pale blue dot lost in the vastness of it all? Why are the such large areas of the one planet we have access to that are virtually if not completely inaccessible to us for purposes of habitation? Why are there so many examples of useless vestigial structures in nature that do nothing but take of valuable space that could be used for constructive purposes and not just as an energy sink? Why do we have a defective Vitamin C gene that is present and fully operable in nearly every other mammal on the planet?

If I had hired your god at a design firm, I would have fired him on the first day.

[godlessgeek-2009]

"My point is, if there is no objective truth/moral basis the it appears to me that it must be left to the individual to deside what''''s right & wrong...and my ideas could be verry different than yours."

I still think the majority of people can agree on a basic set of guidelines centered around not infringing on the rights of others. That should be at the core. The farther you move away from that, the more diversity in opinion you have, and really, who cares as long as you aren''t hurting someone else? Even if I think you are doing something "wrong" by my standards, if it''s not effecting anyone else in a way they object to, you can keep right on doing it and I don''t have a problem.

My issue currently is that there is a large current in the US to try to control the morality of others in ways that should just be left up to the individuals involved. I don''t really care to impose my morals on anyone else, and I only expect the same in return.

[uncletom59]

This is all rather interesting...but pointless since we''re not convincing anyone of our position...only picking sides.

I still ask the same question...if there is no objective standard of what qualifies as "right or wrong" then who determines it? The state? Mao Tse Tung, Stalin and Pol Poc tried that...didn''t work so well. Religious fanatic? ask Jim Jones...or Adolf Hitler. Maybe Ted Kennedy or George Bush should deside..or maybe we could elect someone to a new post.

My point is, if there is no objective truth/moral basis the it appears to me that it must be left to the individual to deside what''s right & wrong...and my ideas could be verry different than yours.

[esh9900]

I agree, "Live or die, but don''t poison everything." But unbelievers are not willing to do that they want to spoil our belief.

I am also leaving the discussion. I leave you with this little account of what happened at lunch today.

Today I sat down to lunch with a plate of Eggplant Parmesan, fresh roasted sweet corn, fresh baked sour dough bread with smart balance, not butter, and a glass of iced tea. As I ate and my taste buds began to process that delightful meal I began to say %u201Cthank you God for this food, it%u2019s so delicious." It was not only that I was hungry and it filled me but it was just so *** good. I could have said %u201CI worked to buy this food and I cooked it, and now I%u2019m gonna eat it.%u201D But I felt a need to be thankful because a long time before that farmer and all others there were natural laws, concerning seeds, climate, soil, nutrients, etc. put into place that made this very meal possible. That farmer could not have grown the corn without a lot of things being done that he could not do or even imagine. I see God as the Greatest Designer and Builder of all time thinking %u201CI will make these delicious things for my children.%u201D %u201CThey will be colorful and luscious and good for their health and I will call them vegetables.%u201D Are you thankful for what you have to eat? If you are, then, who do you thank?

[papergrl]

Ok, here''s the thing - people are already deciding what is morally right or wrong even with doctrine squarely in their lives. Ever heard of BTK? The idea that a moral, functioning society requires religion''s presence is flawed thinking.

We are human beings and we are responsible for ourselves and our actions - no invisible God or invisible Devil required. Look at human beings for what we are, accept it, and still decide to do good. That is your challenge. I''ve found it liberating.

I have to leave this argument now...I know my side and I don''t see any devout soul changing his/her mind, at least not for now. We can debate for decades and everyone will still believe what they will. I''ll just ask this of the faithful (in Ann Sexton''s words) Please, "live or die, but don''t poison everything."

[godlessgeek-2009]

The chemicals are neurotransmitters produced in the body. I''m not a scientists or a doctor, and chemistry is a weak point of mine, so I only have a laypersons understanding, but the processes are not mystifying at all and quite well understood.

I''d like to ask you something. Since you seem so certain that your god is correct, I was wondering if you had read other holy books, like the Mah%u0101bh%u0101rata or the Denkard. They make claims about gods that, to an outside observer, are as plausible as those you hold, yet I get the impression that you would dismiss them. How do you reconcile the hundreds of millions that are just as sure of their authenticity as you of the Bible?

[esh9900]

You still sound angry to me. And where did those chemicals come from?