CAMP PENDLETON, Calif., July 15, 2007
Marine: Violence Ordered Against Iraqis
Corporal Testifies Marines Routinely Beat Iraqis After Officers Demanded They "Crank Up" Violence
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(AP / CBS)
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Photo Essay Iraq In Pictures A daily diary with scenes of the latest attacks and snapshots from the effort to rebuild a nation.
Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.
"We were told to crank up the violence level," the newspaper quoted Lopezromo as saying in testimony for the defense.
When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."
Weeks after allegedly being criticized by officers for not being tough enough, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.
Lopezromo said the man was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system.
Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.
Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial.
Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.
"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge, according to the newspaper. "I see it as killing the enemy."
He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.
"Because of the way they live, the clans, they're all in it together," he said.
Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped.
Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallujah in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.
Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.
Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.
"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.
The jury comprises three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday.
© MMVII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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See all 150 CommentsI can also see the Iraqi's point of view, as well, because like it or not Americans invaded Iraq, not the other way around, so the soldiers are in a "Catch-22" situation.
They are[were] following orders based on deceptiveness, greed, and propaganda forged by this government, cowardly misleading politicians[you don%u2019t see their kids standing line to sign up], etc.--which I can imagine it's frustrating being away from home watching friends, comrades, etc die or maimed.
Recruitment is extremely poor, because there are a lot of mentally challenged men and women signing on, for personal reasons other than National Security, patriotism, etc. for example many enlist to escape poverty, joblessness, and abuse.
Like Vietnam, the rules are not fair, they are fighting a "Guerilla style-warfare", tempers are boiling, and I'm quite sure they are extremely frustrated and angered--under those conditions the sanest individual will eventually crack....
On the other hand, a study of soldiers found that almost all had psychological problems after 6 months of close combat. The only exceptions were those who showed signed of violent psychopathic tendencies before they enlisted.
I would like to think I would never do such a thing, but how do I know what I would do in such circumstances?
It is the job of those in charge to avoid unnecessarily subjecting our people to these conditions in the first place.
Posted by RandalDS at 02:55 AM : Jul 17, 2007,,,
RandalDS, you served so I'm not going to smear your service contribution, even though you were flying around safe in your Air Force planes. I watched ABC News yesterday and Charles Gibson reported an interview done with soldiers on the ground in Iraq on their multiple tours and extensions, they were suppose to do 12 months, then it was extended to 15 and now an additional 6 more months were added and they are rightfully upset. The soldiers are complaining about only getting 4 hours or restless sleep every night and are very high strung and uptight from daily bombings and combat stress wearing all that gear in 130 heat with no relief! The recent relentless search for an already tired and exhausted U.S. force for the 3 U.S. soldiers captured and who were ultimately found in the Iraqi River shot in the head gangster style shows just how wicked this enemy is! Where is the Geneva Convention for them? Where is the Geneva Convention for those whose heads were chopped off on web video? I'm sorry but my sympathy button is broke and I'm concerned about Americans and our overall well being and its time to fight this war on the enemies terms, when they play by the rules so will we! Saying you support hanging a Marine is this type of combat environment is retarded, you might be able to make that case if battle conditions were different!
In my view the premise of your entire argument is invalid, wrong and so are your final conclusions based on it, because no one is talking about kill all the Iraqi's and where did that come from? You just made it up to make your point? One thing is clear, the Iraqi's Voted and have a Government in place, now it was suppose to be time to rebuild Iraqi Institutions and the Iraqi Nation, but a funny thing happened along the way, we have 3,601 Americans dead and over 26,000 wounded, you can't get numbers like that unless someone is lying or being very deceptive by supporting an insurgency. The American death and casualty numbers when the war started were no where near that, what was it 300 or less? And now after elections and the beginning of peace we have staggering numbers like 3,601 dead and 26,000 wounded! Marines are trained to identify and kill the enemy, these Marines based on being there on the ground determined that these Iraqi's were the enemy, I believe them. The part of trying to make killing this enemy acceptable to people like you was the mistake! Like I said before, the mission these Marines are on is not what Marines are trained to do and asking Marines to tone it down is a mistake in my view, use another force if you want it toned down!
Posted by AgentX89A at 02:41 AM : Jul 17, 2007
Easy. They should be tried and if convicted they should be hanged.
1. Vietnam sucked so we should kill all the Iraqis
2. We are Americans so we should kill all the Iraqis
and
3. The US military is trained to act in a barbarous and unlawful fashion so it's OK for us to kill all the Iraqis.
The only problems are that
- Number 1 doesn't have any logic
- Number 2 is just plain stupid
and
- Number 3 is just plain wrong.
Maybe someone could actually address what should be done to a soldier who deliberately kills an unarmed person that they have woken up out of a sound sleep, dragged outside, planted weapons on and then lied about what they did.
Fortunately I never had to deal with troops who would do that (or, if they would, were dumb enough to get caught at it) so I don't know what I would have actually done had I encountered my troops doing it.
I do, however, know what punishment I would have recommended if one of my troops were convicted of doing it
The Marines want families to bury their loved ones with Honor and that's a noble gesture but the truth is we lost a lot of Marines to drugs because they couldn't cope, its really amazing how many Marines died from drug abuse and over doses in and after 'Nam. I can share some real horror stories but I won't, let them rest in peace. This Marine here in this article, is probably guilty, but just from the Iraq war alone, the Marines have built up a lot of "Death Equity" and with the enemies take no prisoners approach, this war owes us a few, so I would let the Marines involved in this incident go free. This war owes us a few Marines it took from us and this is one way to attempt to balance the scales. I'm not saying its right, but I always consider the big picture and the Iraq war owes us a few Marines 'back' big time. The VA Hospital really does a good job once the Veteran gets in the system, but its the wait thats hurting now. The VA also has a Mobile VA unit that travels around to Veterans homes now, the problem is the sheer volume of Vets the VA Health Care System has to service, its overwhelming the system. Each Veteran copes with their experience in their own way, some block it out, I do that sometimes, its not that you don't care, its just a way of coping. I know Vets on full disability and they spend their monthly check in a week on drugs and live on the street and don't have too, they gave up on life.
He came back from Nam convinced the government was in conspiracy against him, extremely paranoid and combative his family totally turned their backs on him, which I stepped in and tried to help.
He lived in filth, and wouldn't allow anyone to clean his house due to his paranoia. He had very bad hygiene and probably bathed once a month and for leisure he paced the streets morning, noon and night.
All I know is that before he was forcibly drafted into the war he didn%u2019t have the paranoid persecutory delusions or schizoid-affective personally.
He had a good job making 100K, a chess master, math whiz, a married father of three, and a productive member of society, and then he was drafted into the war and lost it all.
I had another friend in a similar situation, a good job, articulate, intelligent and productive got drafted into Nam, and came back an emotional vegetable, became hooked on heroin, homeless, and eventually died on the streets.
Another friend came back from Nam got hooked on heroin and became a criminal, he would steal, rob banks, do hits, etc to feed his habit, and he eventually got caught and went to prison. And the list goes on and on!!!!
All the soldiers I know that came back from Nam were never the same, and this poor excuse of a government has done absolutely nothing to compensate these poor Vietnam Veterans living in an internal HELL%u2026
And nickw46 you are scary, hate to think of you as a cop. I have the utmost respect for police officers, the legitimate ones, the ones who are hardworking unbias and free from internal baggage.
Posted by RandalDS at 04:45 PM : Jul 16, 2007,,,
I'm just messing with your head, chill.
Posted by kailumego1 at 04:44 PM : Jul 16, 2007,,,
I saw a lot of Marines die in 'Nam, some of them I was close to and some I wasn't but I still missed them when they were gone, you get use to people and their crazy ways, and then when they are not around anymore you say to yourself wow. One of my friends died owing me a lot of money, but then when I really thought about it the money didn't matter anymore. A lot of Marines made it back home but didn't make it back mentally, they tell me the wait for a VA Hospital visit is 4 months now and some are in a lot of pain, many live on the street and now they have to compete with the Iraq and Afghanistan Vets for VA care. A friend of mine who runs a Vet support group tells me the 'Nam Vets really help the Iraq Vets a lot and its weird having 'Nam and Iraq Vets in the same group sharing war stories. I can't participate because of my schedule but I hear all about it and stay up to date on the literature and donate. If civilians can plead temporary insanity and walk, Marines can too, the case for temporary insanity is much stronger in a combat Marines case. Some of my Post are criticized and maybe I didn't make it all the way back either like I think! It's possible!
Posted by nickw46 at 06:14 PM : Jul 16, 2007
You never answered my question. How much "honor" did it take for these as8sholes to wake an innocent man and his family up out of a sound sleep (not in combat or under fire) because they couldn't find the man they wanted to murder, then take him out side and kill him? he was an unarmed non-combatant in a non-combat situation. This was murder plain and simple and it doesn't matter what uniform they were wearing or why they were there. This is not a question of collateral damage or unintended civilian death. There was no "honor" in this. This was cold-blooded murder. They are scum and should hang.
Posted by kailumego1 at 04:44 PM : Jul 16, 2007
For your information "Clem", I am a regular guy that believes in God, his family, the Law, helping others when asked to do so, and feeling good at night when I close my "psychotic" eyes, because of my duty to my Country as a Marine. I've been in Law-enforcement for a long time now and it amazes me totally, how the public hates cops and the military and does nothing but put them down, BUT.........who is the first one you whiny, cowards call, when the boogy-man comes to your door in the middle of the night ??? Do you call the ACLU, the Left-wingers who cant' stand the cops or the military, or do you just hide under your bed hugging your Liberal "Teddy"(as in Kennedy)Bear, hoping that the boogy-man goes away ??? Got to run now, for I'm going to miss my "Klan" meeting down the street !!! Give it a rest OR.......take your whiny *** to another Country and spout your hatred there and see how long before they put a bullet in the back of your head !!!!
Villages burned to the ground and people scrambling around screaming and crying looking through the detritus for love ones, or possible signs of life.
Watch the documentaries on Vietnam all the carnage and human degradation, and then talk about military competency...
Actually seeing those images should cause any rationally sane individual to rethink his/her position on WARS.
Posted by kailumego1 at 10:46 AM : Jul 16, 2007
Hey Rocketman, what do think happens in "WAR" ??? God, you can't be that stupid, or maybe you can. War "IS" hell and people die, some soldiers, some civilians and that's a fact. I witnessed several Marines in Vietnam die and get wounded trying to save innocent civilians caught in the cross fire, so don't tell me that the military kills everything it sees. Until you've been in a combat situation, then you don't have any right to judge those that have !!!
Posted by tbweb at 04:35 PM : Jul 16, 2007
Um...ok...now you're not making any sense at all....
You put me in a cargo plane? How? I've never really been in a cargo plane. I was in a military transport plane (a convert KC135 transport) for the trip to Vietnam both times, but it's not a cargo plane.
Read between the lines, you can see how the military has created "Frankenstein Monsters", "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it".
This sounds delusional and insane, a GOD complex, these are the psychologically imbalanced men this government is recruiting into the military.
And this psychotic has completed his/her tour of duty, he/she comes home spreading his/her psychosis unto America, the Timothy Mc Veigh, the sniper on the roof, the Lundy's assassin, etc.
This is what the military is unleashing unto society deranged lunatics returning home to have a nervous breakdown, or meltdown, and continue their lunacy by taking target practice on innocent American civilians.
No ones' disputing the importance of the military, because if they did, they are just as insane as Nickw46, however, it's the recruitment of irrational and psychotic individuals, such as this one that's dangerous.
If you read his ramblings you%u2019ll realize we have a serious problem here, because he sounds like a NUT%u2026
Its individuals such as him who pose an immediate danger to our National Security, because these are the potential snipers, mass murderers, uni-bombers, etc, etc,.
These are the individuals that because they%u2019ve are suffering from depression or anxiety will take it out on innocent civilians.
These are the individuals that because they got fired from their job, or their wives are seeking a divorce will murder their boss and co-workers, their families, and innocent civilians before turning the gun on themselves.
So, if you think this type of behavior is acceptable then think again about the consequences.
And as far as the draft, out of the question, if this had been a defensive war, I'm quite sure there wouldn't have been a problem with rationally sane individuals joining the military.
What individuals vehemently object too is the manufactured lie by this and previous administrations concerning reasons why Americans should have entered into this, or any previous war [Vietnam, Korea, the Philippines, Iraq, Kuwait, Iraq, etc, etc.] in the first place.
Posted by RandalDS at 04:32 PM : Jul 16, 2007,,,
I know you never told me you were in Cargo Planes, thats where I put your dumb azz, I know you weren't a pilot!! LOL
RandalDS, stop lying, just quit! I never told you that, I think the last time we exchanged we were debating illegal immigration remember? But at least I know you flew in Cargo Planes now, a fly boy eh?
Posted by tbweb at 04:27 PM : Jul 16, 2007
I have debated illegal immigrants (or as I like to call them, undocumented workers) with several people but I have never told anyone I was in cargo planes? Ar you sure you know who (or what) you're talking about?
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