Marine: Violence Ordered Against Iraqis

Corporal Testifies Marines Routinely Beat Iraqis After Officers Demanded They "Crank Up" Violence

(AP)  A Marine corporal said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level," the Los Angeles Times reported.

Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.

"We were told to crank up the violence level," the newspaper quoted Lopezromo as saying in testimony for the defense.

When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."

Weeks after allegedly being criticized by officers for not being tough enough, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.

Lopezromo said the man was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system.

Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.

Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial.

Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.

"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge, according to the newspaper. "I see it as killing the enemy."

He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.

"Because of the way they live, the clans, they're all in it together," he said.

Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped.

Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Fallujah in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.

Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.

Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.

"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.

The jury comprises three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday.

[pugster]

Of course, like Abu Grabib, only the soldiers are responsible, not the commanders who lead them. That gives a reason why those insurgents to attack us.

[serack96]

With reference to "Dead Checking"

Having served as a soldier in the army but not in the capacity of a combat job, when I was in basic training in 2000, we were instructed that once you pass a wounded enemy on the battle field he or she is considered a POW, but to avoid that potential difficulty, you just double tap them as you pass. That is 2 shots in the head and you don't have to deal with wounded prisoners.

The situations our soldiers are dealing with can not be easy, and although individuals need to be held accountable for their actions, I find the question of how to do this to be quite problematic.

[djmo1-2009]

An individual must pose a lethal threat prior to the application of deadly force. OR IT IS MURDER.

It is often encouraged that Soldiers/Marines behave as the biggest, meanest, toughest warriors around to deter encounters with insurgents.

Assaulting civilians, is a crime punishable by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Tactics like this are as counter productive as they are illegal.

[tbweb]

U.S. Marines should not be asked to do something they are not trained to do! Marines are trained to kill, destroy the enemy, that's what Marines are trained for and that's what Marines do best. If you want a safety patrol, police patrol or community baby sitters send in another force, its not fair to the Marines! Don't make Marines soft by changing their mission or tactics. Let the Marines be the Marines, you'll be glad we did when we really need them to be what they are, trained killers. The problem as I see it is the Marines are being asked to perform a mission they should not be asked to perform. Use the National Guard or the Army or somebody else.

[prinzowhales]

If this order came from above, then it needs to be followed up the chain of command and those officers indicted for conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to violate the UCMJ. These low grade morons don't just show this kind of initiative--and they obviously haven't been encouraged to respect the Geneva Convention.

[tbweb]

Posted by Prinzowhales at 02:50 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

Geneva Convention? Never heard it mentioned during my 4 years in the Corps. Maybe they forgot to mention it because of Vietnam! :) U.S. Marines are America's best and we are not morons! We just get it done and don't mess around. Politicians and civilians should just stay out of it or send someone else if you want nicey nice and Geneva Convention! It is what it is, war is not pretty.

[mh4cbs1]

tbweb:

And you probably think that they "hate us for our freedom". Which is just a load of NeoCon propaganda.

They hate us for very good reasons, and if you were in their shoes you would be fighting the US as well. Because you would see the US as a foreign invader and occupier. You would know your history - how the CIA overthrew Mossadeq to steal Iranian Oil, how the US supported Saddam, supports many other friendly brutal dictatorships. You would know that the US is trying to push through an Iraqi Oil Law that turns over control and profits of the bulk of your Oil to US corporations in 30 year "contracts". You would see the US building huge permanent military bases throughout your country.

Yes, if you were in their shoes you would know why they fight. You would probably join them and fight for your freedom.

[v_1618]

WHAT A SURPRISE NOW . THE UNITED STATES IS THE MOST EVIL COUNTRY OF THE WORLD NOW. AND MAYBE THEIR ACTS WILL BE JUSTIFY THE TERRORIST LATER BECAUSE NOW I DON'T SEE WHO IS THE THERRORIST MAYBE THE UNITED STATES IS THE REAL TERRORIST ORGANISATION..

[djmo1-2009]

RE: The problem as I see it is the Marines are being asked to perform a mission they should not be asked to perform. Use the National Guard or the Army or somebody else.
Posted by tbweb at 02:46 PM : Jul 15, 2007

The mission as well as the rules of engagement are the same for all branches serving in Iraq. Different missions call for different tactics.

Killing people, beating people up are great ways to create insurgents, not getting rid of them. I know, I was there a total of 36 months. There have been times after a loss of a close friend it is normal to hate and blame all Iraqis, That is when you have to take a step back, take a minute and realize not all Iraqis are taking an active role in trying to kill you.

[tbweb]

With 3,601 Americans dead in Iraq, and over 26,000 wounded, I'm not feeling none of you! The point is, it doesn't matter how we got here, we are here and that's the deal. The only rules Marines know is to make the other guy die for his cause and country and not you die for yours! I understand the arguments, I'm not retarded, but the idea that we should lose or get killed just because we shouldn't be there makes no sense either. Of course they are fighting for what they think is a just cause, but until our politicians change course and correct the situation or error or however you want to label it, our troops deserve our full support. That's the problem with the complaints and objections on these boards, we don't lose or die because of the error, that's all.

[dylanxxv]

This guy and others like him should be executed...

[tbweb]

You mention the Geneva Convention and Rules of Engagement. The Geneva Convention is a very extensive document. The Geneva Convention cites everything, including rules of engagement, POW care, medical treatment of the wounded, even ammunition that can be used, it covers everything about warfare. This enemy is not observing the Geneva Convention in any context! This enemy takes no prisoners and chops their enemies heads off on web video or shoots their prisoners in the head gangster style when captured. This enemy doesn't have to worry about medical, food or mail for their prisoners either because they don't take any, they kill them all. How's that for Geneva Convention? But worst of all, this enemy hides and fights behind innocent women and civilians and uses human, car and truck bombs and that is definitely against the Geneva Convention rules of engagement. Our troops are doing an awesome job, because just to capture any prisoners at all they have to risk their lives worrying if this person they are approaching has a hidden bomb on them or not, actually I'm surprised more Iraqi's are not dead, because the smart thing to do would be to kill them first and search them later for fear of a hidden bomb! It's the hidden bomb aspect that makes our troops jobs extremely difficult, and hidden bombs are not allowed in the rules of engagement either!

[tbweb]

This guy and others like him should be executed...

Posted by DylanXXV at 03:51 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

And you should be quiet and stay safe behind your computer keyboard and stay out of grown folks business.

[red164]

The term "blowback," which officials of the
Marine: Violence Ordered Against Iraqis
Corporal Testifies Marines Routinely Beat Iraqis After Officers Demanded They "Crank Up" Violence

Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.

With former Republican Senators, top military analysts and even GOP memos all having recently invited a new terror attack or provocation to save a doomed foreign policy, the realization that a false-flag event may occur is not some rabid fantasy of a group of tin-foil hat wearing schizophrenics, as AOL have tried to spin it in an article today, it's a political reality that many, including Congressman Ron Paul, fully accept and feel compelled to warn about.

[tbweb]

I've been around the world, I saw how the rest of the world lives, American ghettos are better than what some nations live in! Americans live a soft cushy life, are spoiled rotten, complain their azzes off, run off to Canada to escape military service when asked to serve and want all the rewards and benefits of freedom but don't want to lift a finger to contribute, serve or pay the price for it! Most of those losers complain and Post here!

[red164]

This enemy takes no prisoners and chops their enemies heads off on web video

Posted by tbweb at 03:54 PM : Jul 15, 2007

notice when Saudi Arabia beheaded six men for the %u201Ccrime%u201D of being homosexual. ... Or did the psyops people teach CNN how to help the U.S. government

How the US CIA/Mililtary/Bush Administration Killed Another AmericanPayne repeated that Berg was "being detained by the U.S. military'' in an ... his orange jumpsuit) at which time he is supposedly beheaded by Abu Musab

Amnesty International: Saudi Arabia campaign websiteMost of those who are executed are beheaded in public. S...

Saudi Arabia set to behead nursemaid for child's death
BY DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press
Article Last Updated: 07/14/2007 11:19:56 PM PDT


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia %u2014 Rizana Nafeek, a 19-year housemaid from Sri Lanka, is on death row because the baby in her care died while she was bottle-feeding him. If her appeal is turned down, she will taken to a public square to be publicly beheaded.

But if her execution goes ahead, it will be the latest in a surge of beheadings that could surpass the kingdom's record of 191 in 2005.

After dropping to 38 last year, the figure for 2007 is already at least 102, including three women, according to Amnesty International.

USATODAY.com - Official: 15 of 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were SaudiOfficial: 15 of 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi

[dylanxxv]

This guy and others like him should be executed...

Posted by DylanXXV at 03:51 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

And you should be quiet and stay safe behind your computer keyboard and stay out of grown folks business.
Posted by tbweb at 03:56 PM : Jul 15, 2007

You mean grown folk business like the murdering and raping of Iraqis by some of those so called marines?

[tbweb]

Posted by red164 at 04:14 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

Saudi Arabia is not the United States of America! America does not roll like that and thank God! Basically you are stating the obvious and to make the point, the rest of the world does not think like Americans, they don't have our value system and we should stop trying to apply American thinking and American logic to this war because it does not apply. It would probably be better if we thought of them like aliens or something, at least that would probably register better and help us understand what we are up against and dealing with! What's bad and evil to us is normal and acceptable for them!

[tbweb]

Posted by DylanXXV at 04:23 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

The U.S. Military does not condone any of the illegal activity you cite and those who break the rules are punished. You act like Marines are getting away with it, they are not! It would be different if they were getting away with it, so what is your point? Our guys are doing multiple tours in Iraq, some are there on their 4th tour of duty, that is unheard of! Our troops are operating in 130 degree heat in very stressful situations with full combat gear on. I give them the benefit of any doubt when I can, its a very stressful environment and many have mental disorders as a result. Who is to say the Marines commiting these offenses are 100 percent mentally healthy? There are other factors to consider, I've been in combat I know first hand, our troops are doing a great job under tremendous stress, how's about cutting them some slack and giving them a much needed break?

[lostcountry1]

our military personel are doing just what they are told to do,FOLLOW ORDERS ,if they weren't ordered to go to iraq and fight for george bush's re-election war, none of this stuff would be happening.if you were there under orders and fighting to stay alive you would be doing the same. dont blame the troops, hang the commander in thief!

[red164]

Posted by tbweb at 04:08 PM : Jul 15, 2007

Sir or Sis, for many the good fortune of being born in the US doesn%u2019t negate their right to disagree with others. One of the rights given to US citizens is the right to dissent just as you have the right to. I make no apologies to people like you that claim some sort of macho toughness over those you disagree with. People have been dying for thousands of years for foolish, greedy and evil purposes. For now many people remain safer behind a computer key board than a real battle field, if someone wants to join to serve the country and feels the government is serving the interest of the American people and others around the world great. The truth for many US citizens and their opinion that differs from yours is based on a number of relative facts but don%u2019t underestimate a persons ability to adapt during a crisis.

[tbweb]

Posted by red164 at 04:39 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

I agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve, I did my 4 years. You would have a very different perspective if it were you in 130 degree desert heat in full combat gear on your 3rd or 4th tour in Iraq away from your loved ones. You don't really understand another's situation or point of view until you walk in their shoes for real. Americans have it too easy, live a soft cushy life and are shielded from the real world and that's actually by design, its set up that way. But a lot of these complaining and ungrateful Post take the American good life for granted. Americans complain about high gas prices, but in reality don't care what it takes to make them lower, they just want to pay less. How many would starve if they had to hunt for their meat everyday, catch it, kill it and cook it? We just go to the supermarket and put in in our carts! Many take our way of life too much for granted.

[kailumego1]

These men ended up becoming addicts and alcoholics to ease or escape the %u201Cnightmares%u201D brought on by the war, but where was a grateful government, and the people, shouting baby killer and spitting on soldiers as they marched the streets.
My ex-brother in-law was a rationally sane highly intellectual person before he was forcibly drafted into the Vietnam War, only to come back a combative paranoid drug induced schizophrenic, whom which this government abandoned, left homeless without G.I. benefits.
I had to fight vehemently for him to get his G.I. benefits and Social Security disability.
And my friends were fed the same insurgency rhetoric these guys are being fed, they are the enemies, kill, murder, kill, I don%u2019t blame our troops but this government-- which is backed by capitalist corporations that has convinced them and the American people we are fighting a war for democracy-- when in reality this war is about capital gains, exploitation of resources, labor, and hegemony over the Iraqi economy.
This war is about U.S. Corporations gaining a monopoly over commercialism and the exploitation of militarily defenseless countries, too weak to stand up against a mega %u201Csuperpower%u201D. I feel so sorry for our troops because some of them actually believe this democracy propaganda.

[feelfree1]

There are several war crimes acknowledged in this report. These are truly disgusting, and the soldiers who participate in these activities are not following "lawful" orders, but are committing serious war crimes. These acts are a great dishonor on themselves and to our country, and they occur within the context of an illegal war of aggression, which is a very serious war crime, all on its own.

With those facts in mind though, I am still strongly in favor of leniency for any military member that provides evidence leading to the conviction of any upper level military leader who orders these war crimes, or leading to the conviction of any of the lawless and illegitimate Bush regime.

Our soldiers must resist complicity in these shameful acts and in the shameful and illegal Bush regime wars of choice.

www.couragetoresist.org

www.ivaw.org

For the rest of us, we are obligated to demand an end to this disgraceful debacle, and reclaim control of our government.

www.ipetitions.com/petition/OutNow

[dylanxxv]

Posted by DylanXXV at 04:23 PM : Jul 15, 2007,,,

The U.S. Military does not condone any of the illegal activity you cite and those who break the rules are punished. You act like Marines are getting away with it, they are not! It would be different if they were getting away with it, so what is your point? Our guys are doing multiple tours in Iraq, some are there on their 4th tour of duty, that is unheard of! Our troops are operating in 130 degree heat in very stressful situations with full combat gear on. I give them the benefit of any doubt when I can, its a very stressful environment and many have mental disorders as a result. Who is to say the Marines commiting these offenses are 100 percent mentally healthy? There are other factors to consider, I've been in combat I know first hand, our troops are doing a great job under tremendous stress, how's about cutting them some slack and giving them a much needed break?
Posted by tbweb at 04:31 PM : Jul 15, 2007

I give due where it's deserved...Most military people are very deserving of praise...My disdain is for people like the maggot testifying in the story above who kill and rape for the he ll of it...
Don't give me any of that well they work in 130 degree temps or that they are on their 4th duty cr ap...None of that turns a person into a murderer or rapist...

[kailumego1]

Tbweb you are a "poster child" for Neanderthal logic, I've had friends to die and come back emotionally unstable because of the Vietnam War. These friends told me of the horror stories, of U.S. barbarianism against the Vietnamese people, old/young men, women, and children.
The mutilations, cutting off the ears of Vietnamese wearing it around their necks as souvenirs, the gang rape of women and children, and the murderous slaughter of villages, these unfortunately are the casualties of war.
I%u2019ve had friends return from the war psychologically mangled and drug induced, in which this government did absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, in the way of providing adequate medical or mental health assistance.
And a mandatory draft, out of the question, I was going to say you guys are the lucky ones, but from reading your post, I retract, either you had the gun-toting Paramilitary cowboy mentality to begin with or developed it along the way after your tour of duty-- because you%u2019ll seem to be at ease with the concept of killing, your wives and children should be on notice.
Have any %u201Cnightmares%u201D, I suppose not, considering, the humane soldiers distraught over killing are the ones%u2019 coming back with the %u201CPTSD%u201D, not the John Wayne, Jessie James, shoot-them-up Cow boys.

[nickw46]

test

[wise80]

It is not about hidden bomb with enemy or rules of engagement.It is about detaining unarmed innocent civilian among his family, kill him an planting a gun beside him to tell that he is a terrorist. It is about raiding on a house, raping 12 years old girl then killing her and the whole family.

If you blame the enemy to kill innocent civilians, do you want Americans to be like them, then what is the difference.

[nickw46]

As a "former" combat Marine in Vietnam, I can find no fault with Marines killing civilians, for a "civilian" can and WILL kill you just as quickly as a man OR woman wearing a uniform. If I knew that a "civilian" was responsible for the deaths of my fellow Marines, I would be the first to put a bullet in the back of his OR her head.......end of problem !!!! War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation, for WAR is for killing and that is what Marines are trained to do and will continue to do in the future (THANK GOD). No one hates war more than those of us that have been in one, but there are those that need to be killed in order for others to live in peace........

[red164]

I agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve,

Posted by tbweb at 04:53 PM : Jul 15, 2007

If that had happened back during Vietnam we probably would not be suffering from the leadership America has now or over the last thirty years.

Prominent Republicans
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.


House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.


Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.

[red164]

I agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve,

Posted by tbweb at 04:53 PM : Jul 15, 2007

If that had happened back during Vietnam we probably would not be suffering from the leadership America has now or over the last thirty years.


Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.



Click on the logo above to join America's oldest and most respected environmental organization, and stop Bush's all-out assault on our environment.
Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader *** Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)

[red164]

I agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve,

Posted by tbweb at 04:53 PM : Jul 15, 2007

War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation

Posted by nickw46 at 05:57 PM : Jul 15, 2007


If that had happened back during Vietnam we probably would not be suffering from the leadership America has now or over the last thirty years.

Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)



GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

Former House Majority Leader *** Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve

[red164]

I agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve,

Posted by tbweb at 04:53 PM : Jul 15, 2007

War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation

Posted by nickw46 at 05:57 PM : Jul 15, 2007

Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)
Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve (1, 2)
Senator John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve. (1)
Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve (1, 2)
Eliot Abrams, did not serve (1, 2) (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)
Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve (1, 2)
Richard Perle, did not serve (
Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)
Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.

[red164]

agree with you. I wish the U.S. had a mandatory draft and that every able body American was made to serve,

Posted by tbweb at 04:53 PM : Jul 15, 2007

War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation

Posted by nickw46 at 05:57 PM : Jul 15, 2007

Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)
George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)
Spencer Abraham, did not serve
John Engler, did not serve (1, 2)
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve (1)
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve (1)
Rep. Todd Platts, R-PA - did not serve (1)

Senator Joe Lieberman - did not serve.

[red164]

War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation

Posted by nickw46 at 05:57 PM : Jul 15, 2007

Is okay if they just lead then?

GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?

VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

[feelfree1]

nickw46,

Re: "As a "former" combat Marine in Vietnam, I can find no fault with Marines killing civilians"

Wow! You sound like a real coward, and an apologist for war crimes. You are certainly in no position to criticize anyone about anything of substance, judging from what you wrote. If you are a Viet Nam era vet, then hopefully you are no longer disgracing our military ranks with your presence.

Re: "War is HELL and those that have never served in combat shouldn't even be in this conversation"

It is ever American's right and responsibility to hold our leaders to account for their actions. Veterans have no more and no less right to offer their opinions on this topic than anyone else.

The mindless stupidity that you have presented here, is a good example of why the opinions of those who are not military brainwashing victims to share their opinions.

It sounds like you have deeply disgraced our military and our country with your craven and uninformed views and actions.

[djmo1-2009]

feelfree1,

RE: Our soldiers must resist complicity in these shameful acts and in the shameful and illegal Bush regime wars of choice.

www.couragetoresist.org

I looked at this site the other day there is a SPC Cherry, who I know, and I know his PTSD is the real deal. He was a medic, medics see all of the ugly stuff as it is their job. The rest I would have to argue they have never been shot at and I have to speculate they are only looking out for them selves. Those who join, do so for a mutitude of reasons, and ought to know when they sign up the chances of them being deployed are very good. Any support network is basically helpless.

Should a service member make a decsion to go AWOL he or she is going to be charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as well as other applicable federal laws.

On the 31st day of being AWOL a service member is then considered to be a deserter, a federal warrant is issued until the individual is caught, whether it be one year or sixty the warrant does not go away. Then the individual faces federal felony charges. Even a federal conviction for a misdemeaner charge never leaves a person's record.

People should be discouraged from enlisting rather than encouraged to create a life long stigma of a federal felony conviction.

[gkc99]

"WAR is for killing and that is what Marines are trained to do and will continue to do in the future (THANK GOD). No one hates war more than those of us that have been in one, but there are those that need to be killed in order for others to live in peace........ "
Posted by nickw46

And he may be coming for you, if you don't shut up and knuckle under to George W. Bushit, his handler Darth "5 deferments" Chickenhawk, and the goosesteppers who enforce their will.

If their propaganda won't persuade you, you may soon learn what a machine gun can do.

[waynabq]

Thanks to Bush and his million man army of moron supporters, the Iraqis' have "freedom" and "Democracy" but no electricity, limited access to clean water, daily murder and car bombings.

As the moron Bush supporter likes to parrot "freedom isn't free."

[dcamp2909]

The situation is Iraq is not a war.....it is an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, for personal gain by a select few. The people of Iraq are fighting for their independence and their self determination. Just like the colonies did against the British.

[toldyouso21]

Uhmmmm...sort of makes those remarks about going there just to save all of them and make them a democracy a big fat lie...huh? Lmao. What freedom are we giving them again? The freedom to die from attacks by busybodies from around the world...or was that the freedom to target all the men and boys so our soldiers can "Abeer" the girls and women?.....If our military does perceive that all Iraqi men are the enemy/insurgents and to beat or kill them--whose hearts and minds do we think we will win? Satan's?

[feelfree1]

DJmo1,

Re: "People should be discouraged from enlisting rather than encouraged to create a life long stigma of a federal felony conviction."

I support both tactics, but I agree that this former approach is preferable. After they are in, however, resistance seems like their best option. Being convicted of a felony for resisting an illegal war of aggression, is a far more honorable position to be in, than allowing one's self to be complicit.

A soldier's sworn oath is primarily to our Constitution. The rest is just boilerplate. Refusing to participate in a fraud-based war of aggression is a courageous example of upholding this oath, in my opinion.

Re: "The rest I would have to argue they have never been shot at and I have to speculate they are only looking out for them selves."

I disagree. Many war resisters have actively participated in combat, and/or in Iraq, including several who are represented on the 'www.couragetoresist.org' site, and some have even admitted to participating in acts that amount to war crimes. In some cases, it is these atrocities that ultimately caused them to resist, because they found them difficult to live with. The site 'www.ivaw.org' seems to have more examples of these resisters.

Any and all resistance is welcome, when it comes to resisting illegal war of aggression. I think that the various support groups are more potent than you give them credit for.

[toldyouso21]

Of course they are fighting for what they think is a just cause, but until our politicians change course and correct the situation or error or however you want to label it, our troops deserve our full support. That's the problem with the complaints and objections on these boards, we don't lose or die because of the error, that's all.
Posted by tbweb at 03:31 PM : Jul 15, 2007


Some people will never support what they consider illegal and an immoral war. Will not support the carnage, the death and mayhem--and they don't care who is fighting or what the justifications are. There are higher laws than a country or a man or patriotism. there are moral laws that supposedly country, patriotism and society laws are based on. When you cut through the red tape--following a bad law or a cultural dictate--"just because" will not make it right. Bad acts do not become good just because good people stoop to doing them. I don't support this war. I never did. I never will. And I do not believe any American there is fighting for anything to do with america. They are pawns of greed and political manipulation--and they, and the Iraqis are victims. Some may be willing victims and some may be reluctant--but they all are pawns and I refuse to support this evil. No matter how some, like you, try to justify it.

[feelfree1]

dcamp2909,

Re: "The situation is Iraq is not a war.....it is an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, for personal gain by a select few. The people of Iraq are fighting for their independence and their self determination. Just like the colonies did against the British."

This is an exceptional comment. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[feelfree1]

DJmo1,

I would like to suggest a film to you entitled "Sir, No Sir!", if you have not seen it.

The film is about the G.I. resistance to Viet Nam, and their efforts were very impressive.

I have little doubt that their resistance helped to bring an end to that misguided conflict.

[kailumego1]

Wars are dirty, inhumane, and in some cases belligerent, and from reading your post I certainly can see what my friends were saying, this government, and the military has created heartless inhumane %u201CFrankenstein Monsters%u201D.
And if you are the example of what our military has been and continues to send to fight for this country, then %u201CHeaven Help Us All%u201D.
From reading your post I understand why Hitler%u2019s soldiers followed him, notwithstanding, clear and convincing evidence demonstrating he was a paranoid delusional anti-social personality-- because like Hitler, individuals such as you equate manhood/power with evoking terror on helpless and defenseless people.
You are no better than Hitler%u2019s %u201Cgoon squad%u201D, like you said %u201CI would be the first to put a bullet in the back of his OR her head%u201D.
So, what makes you any different from Hitler%u2019s SS, fighting a war should not be to magnify or glorify killing people, but to fight in defense of liberty, because when you get to the place where you enjoy killing as a sport then %u201CHeaven Help the People back Home%u201D, who will have to deal with your psychosis.
YOU SOUND LIKE ASOCIOPATH!!!!

[kailumego1]

Wars are dirty, inhumane, and in some cases belligerent, and from reading your post I certainly can see what my friends were saying, this government, and the military has created heartless inhumane %u201CFrankenstein Monsters%u201D.
And if you are the example of what our military has been and continues to send to fight for this country, then %u201CHeaven Help Us All%u201D.
From reading your post I understand why Hitler%u2019s soldiers followed him, notwithstanding, clear and convincing evidence demonstrating he was a paranoid delusional anti-social personality-- because like Hitler, individuals such as you equate manhood/power with evoking terror on helpless and defenseless people.
You are no better than Hitler%u2019s %u201Cgoon squad%u201D, like you said %u201CI would be the first to put a bullet in the back of his OR her head%u201D.
So, what makes you any different from Hitler%u2019s SS, fighting a war should not be to magnify or glorify killing people, but to fight in defense of liberty, because when you get to the place where you enjoy killing as a sport then %u201CHeaven Help the People back Home%u201D, who will have to deal with your psychosis.
YOU SOUND LIKE ASOCIOPATH!!!!

[toldyouso21]

"This enemy is not observing the Geneva Convention in any context!" Posted by tbweb at 03:54 PM : Jul 15, 2007


Whereas we, ignore the parts we don't want to observe, reinterpret or lie about them or have our signatures removed altogether (rendition, torture, use of WP against civilians, treatment of POWs...sounds similar********************

" This enemy takes no prisoners and chops their enemies heads off on web video or shoots their prisoners in the head gangster style when captured. Posted by tbweb at 03:54 PM : Jul 15, 2007

Are we the same country that showed bullet ridden bodies of Saddams kids all over the world via tv, showed Zahawari's body and discussed how they were killed and the est. cost of ammo used to get them? **********************


"But worst of all, this enemy hides and fights behind innocent women and civilians and uses human, car and truck bombs and that is definitely against the Geneva Convention rules of engagement.Posted by tbweb at 03:54 PM : Jul 15, 2007


Which is worse? Using a few women and children to hide behind to fight a war or using an entire country to hide behind to fight a war? "We fight them there so we don't have to fight them here?"

Which is worse? To use a cell phone to detonate a bomb from several yards away, or to use a plane to drop a bomb fron thousands of feet away? Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black, here.

there are no halos for either side

[kailumego1]

nickw46, I'm one that never served, but had friends and family who served, and I've heard it all, and your psychological assessment of the particulars of war is not uncommon.
However, you need to realize that you've become nothing more than a "killing machine", which is extremely dangerous, because even police officers are cautioned against developing this type of misanthropic behavior.
And to speak so freely of killing someone only demonstrates how serious the problem of PTSD really is, you%u2019ve become no better than a mass murderer or serial killer; you both have similar ideologies towards life and human behavior.
I realize what a combatants%u2019 job consist of, and what%u2019s interesting, I%u2019ve heard horror stories about arrogant marines, by friends who served in Vietnam, I%u2019ve even read some personal accounts of former Vietnam marines, and it wasn%u2019t pretty, sounds similar to you.

[toldyouso21]

No one hates war more than those of us that have been in one, but there are those that need to be killed in order for others to live in peace........
Posted by nickw46 at 05:57 PM : Jul 15, 2007


Hmmmm. There are many of us who think they would actually live...in a better peace if we stopped lying to invade other countries and kept our boys at home. At the very least we would not be complicit in their deaths. Because no matter what--we should never have been there--they did not do 9/11, they did not deserve this fight or these deaths--we brought it to them and your rationale is...since we brought this to them, however undeserved---too bad? War is hell--and it appears that being too close to it unleashes demons. Re-read your justifications--I fault no Iraqi for fighting against invaders or collaborators in their country. I would do the same, if in their place.