"Hot Fuel" Costing Consumers Big Bucks?

Some Say Temperature Difference Costs Drivers Billions

(CBS)  Many drivers have been conditioned to know that when summer comes, gas prices seem to head higher with the temperature, thanks to greater seasonal demand.

But what if we told you that you might be paying more, literally because of the temperature?

As CBS News correspondent Susan McGinnis reports, this phenomenon is called "hot fuel" and it's become a burning issue from Main Street to Congress.

Bill Younger has been driving trucks for 56 years. He's been on the road about as long as he's been old enough to drive. Even in his 70's, he still clocks about 600 miles a day.

"I've known about the hot fuel issue for about four or five years," he says.

And this little known issue has this lifelong driver worried about losing his livelihood.

Hot fuel boils down to simple physics: when temperatures rise, gasoline expands. So on hotter days, you're getting less usable fuel from a gallon of gas.

But gas is bought by retailers based on a standard temperature of 60 degrees. When it's hotter than that, the argument goes that drivers end up paying the difference.

On a 90-plus degree day, McGinnis decided to take a measurement of the gasoline's temperature – the thermometer settled at 78.5 degrees, a lot higher than the 60 degree standard.

Consumer groups say the difference could cost drivers three to nine cents a gallon more at the pumps, totaling more than $1.5 billion this summer, $2.3 billion for the year.

That's making it a hot issue from the highways to Capitol Hill, where hearings recently got heated over the issue. And about 20 federal lawsuits have accused retailers and distributors of unfairly profiting from hot fuel.

Bill Younger is one of the plaintiffs. "It should be 60 degrees, that's what the government says it's supposed to be," he says. "You're not getting what your paying for."

An oil industry trade association declined comment, but does say more research is needed. They defer to retailers.

Station owners say the only way to fix the problem is to retro-fit pumps with pricey equipment that adjusts for temperature changes, something they say would cost thousands of dollars per pump.

"The average retail station owner who's going to have to spend a lot of money on expensive pumps is really making only a couple of cents in net profit on gasoline," says oil analyst Tom Kloza.

Kloza says that would punish the wrong culprit. "At the end of the day, we're talking about a thimbles' worth of gasoline sometimes when people are fueling up in hot temperatures. And I don't think at the end of the day that makes a difference in getting us out of this energy mess that we're in," he says.

Try telling that to Bill Younger. He fills up two to three times a day and believes everybody loses as a result.

"This isn't just for me. This is for the whole trucking industry. The cost of groceries goes up. Anybody who gets anything from a truck, which is everybody. I mean, if you got it, you eat it, you wear it, whatever. It was brought to you by a truck. So somebody's paying for it. And 'who' ultimately is the consumer," Younger says.

[time2toss]

This sounds like a hotbutton issue, but there are a couple MAJOR questions about this: 1. What about Wintertime? Is gas still traded at 60 degrees, cause the gas may be in the 30's or 40's in our tanks. which leads me to 2. Is gas at 40 degrees less voluminous than at 60 degrees?

This might be much ado about nothing...

[stew1919]

A major oversight in this story is the fact that the gas is stored underground at gas stations. This prevents the gas from undergoing large temperature changes. It will never be as hot as the air temp. I filled up the other day with an air temp of 88 degrees and the pump was cool in my hand as the gas was going through.
A fresh delivery of gas might be slightly "hotter" since it just came off the tanker truck.

[johnsiebert-2009]

Underground tanks are double-walled and act as a thermos bottle. Put hot fuel in and it stays hot for a long time.

As for the winter temps canceling out the summer temps, I refer you to the August '06 KC Star series. The summer loss to consumers, when offset by the winter gains to consumers, still accounts for a $2.3 billion annual loss to consumers. Dennis Kucinich (OH D) has estimated that the loss to consumers for this summer alone is $1.5 billion.

Hot fuel is real. It costs you real money.

[baldandobese]

My father was a wholesale distributor for Standard Oil Company when I was a child. I grew up pumping gasoline and did it from age 4 to 18. Never in that time have I experienced petroleum product that had come up to air temperature (without burning). Even when stored in above ground tanks or left in the truck for several days, the gasoline was always cooler than the air temperature. This was in California where one might argue it's potentially warmer than where you live. I think that all of the claims made by CBS news and our elected officials are made to sensationalize the issue and outrage consumers. Why? To sell more product and get reelected. Follow the money, and you'll see that it always comes down to that. While you're bemoaning the price of gasoline (which I do as well), please remember that gasoline would be less than $1.00/gallon if it weren't for all of the taxes and fees.

[Rontimcoe]

This "Hot fuel" issue is true.

I delivered gasoline, jet fuel, and diesel fuel out of Port Everglades in Fort Lauderdale Florida from 1972 through 2000 and alwasys had complaints from the bulk fuel purchasers, about this fact.

If the fuel was delivered hot, it cooled when stored underground and sold in a condensed form. The dealer lost money.
It is real.

This thing about being sold at 60* temperature is not true.
When the port fuel distributer sells the product to the gas station, it is loaded into the transport tanker through a metered pump, at the temperature of the fuel at the time. There is no allowances made for the temperature.

[Rontimcoe]

If it is loaded hot, it shrinks in the customer's underground storage tanks. The dealer ends up with less liquid fuel than he recieved at the time of delivery. Then it is sold at a condensed (shrunken) form.
If it is delivered really cold, it expands in the ground tanks and the dealer ends up with more product to sell.
Hear in Florida, that never happens.

[torontorsh]

Here in Canada all of the pumps are standardized to 150C or 590F across the country. Its the law, and has been for years, so hot gas is NOT an issue.

Of course we are paying about C$1.03 a liter right now, which is a bit more that you in the U.S. are paying, so even with hot gas you are paying less than we are! Stop complaining!

[C$1.03 is about US$.9715 right now, so a gallon of gas would be about US$3.67 in Canada...]

[torontorsh]

Sorry but in the last posting the 150C used the degree sign and came out as 150C when it is 15 degrees Celsius. The F temperature is 59 degrees and not 590 degrees for the same reason. For some reason the online system cannot handle ALT 248 correctly..

[mommajomma-2009]

does the consumer come out ahead in the winter, or when it is below 60 degrees?

[michellem99-2009]

Yep. Everybody pays. We am on a fixed income. We try to take care of our things due to the prices. I can understand the truck/lorry drivers need to pass the PETRO prices on. We use mass tranit. I don't buy this as it is just a way of raising prices. Somebody is raking the money in.

[shanev137]

Exxon makes $200 billion net profit every year...make them pay for it.

[l8c6]

mommajomma...to answer your question, no, the oil companies measure temperatures in cold climates and calculate to their advantage.

[l8c6]

baldandobese, Wow, you mean gas didn't double over the past couple years because of big oil but instead it was those 10 cent a gallon gas tax hikes?

Right winger fascists in denial are so distorted and delusional. The lies can't be covered anymore, the deception is surfacing like the cadaverous entrails of these creatures missing a segment of human DNA.

[michellem99-2009]

Somebody is censoring as I know full it is done to keep us in the dark. Somebody is makintg money off the poor ever the ones who can't drive.

[l8c6]

MichelleM99, you're not going to get Ann Coulter's job no matter how hard you try.

[sparks224]

Gasoline is a dead end.

We should be discussing the fastest way to switch to something else.

Hot gas, cold gas, who cares, either way your still screwed.

It's like debating the color of the rope you're going to be hanged with.

[michellem99-2009]

Never heard of her.I am a 52 year old legally blind person who have to live in my means of a fixed income and don't like the sky high prices. I also have a male friend that I care for as we have been together 24 years. I hate crocks. Don't you.I voiced my mind as I not after anyone's job lass/lad. I am one who won't let them pall the wool over my eye.

[alphaa10-2009]

rsh_rsh comments, "For some reason the online system cannot handle ALT 248 correctly..."
---
This CBS blog, like all blogs, can be tailored to suit the host. In the case of ALT commands, upper ASCII and HTML, CBS let experience become its guide.

For example, CBS quickly learned NOT to allow HTML code when some bloggers began putting their Phillipics in BOLD type. A little of that goes a long, long way, but became only worse when some of these posters also forgot to close their paired commands-- meaning the entire page ended up bold for our viewing pleasure.

[alphaa10-2009]

This story might be dismissed as trivial by the oil industry, but Big Oil certainly hasn't made any moves to refund the extra $ millions $ it is making from motorists.

Oil spokesmen also wave a deceitful, strawman argument in front of our faces, hoping we won't notice. They claim it is absurd to outfit gas stations with cooling equipment. What they are careful NOT to say is there is a much easier way to be fair about the "hot fuel" issue-- simply float the price of gas, based on its temperature.

That is, if gas density has a predictable relation to temperature, the solution is simply to take the temperature of gas in the station holding tank, and compute the price of gas per gallon, accordingly. Almost all gas pumps these days are capable of a variety of computerized operations, including variable temperature input.

Under this proposed arrangement, on hot days, the price per gallon would DROP because gasoline density in the holding tank is lower than for gasoline at the standard 60 degrees. Conversely, on cold days, the price per gallon would RISE, since the holding tank gasoline density would increase beyond the standard set for gasoline at 60F.

[alphaa10-2009]

(Oil industry analyst) Bill Kloza said, "At the end of the day, we're talking about a thimbles' worth of gasoline sometimes when people are fueling up in hot temperatures. And I don't think at the end of the day that makes a difference in getting us out of this energy mess that we're in."
---

There is only one answer for Mr. Kloza-- at the end of Kloza's figurative day, Big Oil is millions richer-- billions over the whole season-- and all money unfairly taken from consumers.

You can bet the oil barons would cry foul if consumers were able to find gasoline at temperatures below 60F. Happily for oil corporations, underground temperatures rarely fall that low at station tank levels, in even the northern latitudes of this country.

What a relief! That kind of thing could end up costing oil companies a lot of money.

[l8c6]

(Oil industry analyst) Bill Kloza said, "At the end of the day, we're talking about a thimbles' worth of gasoline sometimes when people are fueling up in hot temperatures. And I don't think at the end of the day that makes a difference in getting us out of this energy mess that we're in." ----------well, then why the he*ll do they measure it in cold climates and not in hot climates.....lying doesn't matter anymore does it?

[l8c6]

MichelleM99, I'm glad to hear you are advocating for youself and not giving into the sociopathic elitists of this world.

[nothappyatall]

"Yep. Everybody pays. We am on a fixed income.
Posted by MichelleM99"

Oh get real- arent we ALL on a "fixed income" honey, at least when you get old enough to collect SS's fixed income checks you no longer have;

1) A mortgage
2) Kids at home
3) You don't drive to/from work twice a day any more.

[time2toss]

Well, it sounds like metering of petroleum has to be changed, to include both temperature and volume. Calculation of quantity thus price would be derived computationally from quantity vs. temperature.

All meters (and possibly pumps at gas stations) would have to be phased out. Those costs, of course, would be passed on to the consumer.

So much for saving a little at the pump after fixing this problem.

[Scooter68]

From this report the Oil Industry has long been aware of this problem as has the Federal government. Seems that the "costs" of fixing this problem should be mutually shared by the Fed and Mainly by big oil who has simply kept quiet about this all along.
It all comes back to credibility and both Oil Companies and politicians have little of that.

[michellem99-2009]

I am in the real world. I see it as hurting the little guy/lady who must put food on table so you and your children don't go to bed crying for something to eat when gas prices get to high you have to feed them or put gas in the family car.
Paying the lights,rent.etc or puttting gas in the car and maybe having to live in it. Maybe it is time to use mass transit. Get cars that don't use gas. Dear it is running out and when it does it is gone forever.AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS IT WILL A WAR ZONE OVER WHAT LITTLE GAS THERE IS. It don't take brains to figure that out. More cars the faster it is used up. Most are too blind to it. I 52. We are multi diaabled. I am living on $500.00 a month now that is fixed income young man and I earnt my ss. I won't pay $3.00 for 2 apples. Yes I speak for me no one will.

[processor2]

Liberals are amazing in their hypocrisy

They will whine about high gas prices, and then whine about proposals to find more oil.

STOP GLOBAL WHINING!!!
STOP GLOBAL WHINING!!!

HEY, HEY, HO, HO, GLOBAL WHINING HAS GOT TO GO
HEY, HEY, HO, HO, GLOBAL WHINING HAS GOT TO GO

If any of you NeoCommies think I'm being ridiculous with the above chants,

Congratulations, you get my point

...

[rfsteffen]

You have Got to be kidding me!! Gasoline is in underground tanks it is a constant 60 degrees fahrenheit in these tanks!

[Syndicate]

A temperature sensor cost about a dollar and the interface electronics can be built for $10 if the pump can't be simply reprogrammed. But it doesn't matter. If gas is hot in the summer its cold in the winter so you get the advantage in winter. If you really wanted to make it fair you could take the average ground temerature and use it to adjust the prices. Maybe the auto manufacturers should have to pay too. Cars get less milage when its hot. Average yearly ground temerature here in california are about 68 degrees.

[kesac4650]

The consumer pays for everything. He always has, and always will. If he wants it he pays. If it costs too much, he will do without. All of the ******** and bellyaching in the world is totally irrelevant, because the consumer votes with his checkbook, everytime he makes a purchase, whether he thinks the price is acceptable or not.
We have had warm gas, every summer since there has been gas to become warm.

[alphaa10-2009]

Bush and Big Oil--2
Curiously, Big Oil has people who share their antipatriotic values, among them most (but not all) of the GOP. En masse, however, the GOP voted against any measures to divert even some of their huge, new gas profits into research on energy alternatives. Big Oil simply doesn't want oil alternatives, now or ever-- it cares only about robbing the rest of us.

Your comment about Big Oil needing more money to develop new oil sources is laughable. BP was cited by congress last year for failure to do basic maintenance on its own Alaskan pipelines. In view of its huge income, BP's failures are compelling proof the oil industry spends little money on anything-- let alone exploration and development

Liberals and conservatives with intelligence and foresight favor ending our national dependence on oil-- period. Even if our oil assets last a while, oil is non-renewable and not the long-term answer to our energy needs. We need now to start developing one, and stop making excuses (and foreign policy) on our addiction to oil.

Meanwhile, Bush and most of the GOP is huddled with Big Oil, and only too happy to postpone realistic, immediate measures to avoid continued oil crises. By now, what should Americans expect from Bush and (most of) the GOP, if not more crises?

[alphaa10-2009]

Processor2 said, "Liberals are amazing in their hypocrisy... They will whine about high gas prices, and then whine about proposals to find more oil."
---
Your whining post about liberals is the only whine seen on this page. The rest of the comments concern Big Oil crooks and con artists masquerading as gentle, beneficient patrons to American consumers. In fact, just a decade or so ago, these crooks scrapped many of their reserve refineries so there would be insufficient capacity to meet consumer demand, thereby driving prices through the roof.

Big Oil strives to maintain monopoly control over America and exploit this country's vulnerability to being held (up) over a barrel of oil. They are no better-- and probably worse-- than any foreign country which tries to hijack our energy market in this fashion, because Big Oil hurts its own citizens.

This behavior makes oil corporations into enemies of the United States. Despite $ billions $ in excess profits taken out of the budgets of average American households, the oil industry is quite content at the distress its skyrocketing prices cause their fellow Americans.
See Bush and Big Oil--2

[alphaa10-2009]

kesac4650 said, "The consumer pays for everything. He always has, and always will. If he wants it he pays... If it costs too much, he will do without.
---

This is a variation on Marie Antoinette, when told "The people have no bread!" Smiling coldly at her own wit, the Queen snapped, "Let them eat cake!"

Your comment is people always are in need of something, so this is not human misery but a mere market equation-- a dry exercise in market mechanics. The blind faith in The God of Markets doesn't explain the fear and pain in the faces of investors now-- or back in 1929.

Your indifference to price burdens on your fellow citizens is clear enough, but should we expect to see you smile the next time you are robbed by a monopoly market?

One of the basic tenets of capitalism is the market continually enriches its players. The truth this holds is very small, indeed, at times. Lessez faire capitalism-- ie. greed unrestrained by social democracy-- midwifed revolution and the despair that produced Hitler and Stalin and a host of other sourges.

It is only intelligent, responsible, community-sensitive capital that true capitalists might celebrate. Your view is only social Darwinism, poorly disguised.

[ooida-2009]

There are many myths surrounding this issue. Visit the Turn Down Hot Fuel website for more. TurnDownHotFuel Dot com.

[cyberdjs4]

"You have Got to be kidding me!! Gasoline is in underground tanks it is a constant 60 degrees fahrenheit in these tanks!"--rfsteffen
----------------------------------------------
Good point. Why are we arguing about this?
This is another way for Big Oil to screw us over.
It's time for a revolution.
Walk, carpool, ride a bike, take the bus, get a fuel-efficient car.

Stop spreading your cheeks for The Man.

[nskduke]

Here in Nebraska gas is expected to go up, because the Kansas oil refineries are flooded from the rain they are getting.

[nskduke]

Here in Nebraska gas is expected to go up, because the Kansas oil refineries are flooded from the rain they are getting.

[l8c6]

alphaa10, In your response to the dimwitted sociopath that made the comment.
----
kesac4650 said, "The consumer pays for everything. He always has, and always will. If he wants it he pays... If it costs too much, he will do without.

The high functioning anti-socials, you know the high society sociopaths who push these rationales in defense or promotion of their callous greed, the Marie Antoinettes as you pointed out are really no different from the thug that breaks into ones home and steals using the rationale, I'm bigger, and stronger and carry a gun. Of course the high functioning sociopaths ruling society these days can't see the comparison but a higher power really sees no difference.

[l8c6]

cbscrash07, Uh, whatever, the oil companies measure the temperature at the pump in cold climates and ignore the temperature in hot climates. So see, for all that you could just make this simple straight forward observation. You however didn't for some reason.

[jetranger7]

HO-HO-I HAVE AN IDEA AND A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM, DR. WATSON :),, REFRIGERATE THE FUEL AS IT COMES OUT FROM THE PUMPS OR UNDERGROUND TANKS, A FAN AND SOME REFRIGERANT, AND YOUR ALL SET CLEO !!! I KNEW MY PARENTS SENT ME TO HARVARD AND YALE FOR SOMETHING !!! NOW, DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND ME A JOB ?????? YA SAY - "CHINA" or "MEXICO" !!!!!!! :(:(