Amnesty And Looting In Hamas' Gaza

Islamic Group Takes Control Of Gaza Strip, Splitting Palestinian Territories Into Two

(CBS/AP)  They mobbed the streets of Gaza today — cheering Hamas supporters wearing green headbands and waving flags. It was a show of relief that the worst of the Palestinian in-fighting had ended, as well as a show of gratitude to Hamas.

Victory has put the radical Islamic group in a generous mood, calling for reconciliation with the Fatah movement it drove out.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh told his people to show restraint, and some of his men announced an amnesty for rival Palestinian fighters, as violence tapered off from five days of bloodshed that claimed more than 90 lives.

But as CBS News correspondent Richard Roth reports, it's not all harmony in Gaza, where gunmen still rule the street and still relish their conquest — like the armed man in the Palestinian president's armchair.

Mahmoud Abbas, who used to sit there, was praying in Ramallah, 30 miles away.

Safe in the West Bank, Abbas moved quickly to cement his rule there after losing control of Gaza. He replaced Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas member, with Finance Minister Salam Fayyad, a respected economist, to head a new moderate government.

Hamas, overwhelmingly elected in a 2006 parliament vote, denounced Abbas' move as a coup. Hamas' supreme leader, Syrian-based Khaled Mashaal, later said Abbas has legitimacy as an elected president and promised to cooperate, but warned Fatah against going after Hamas loyalists in the West Bank.

But Fatah gunmen and security forces allied with Abbas in the West Bank were prowling that territory looking for Hamas supporters and wrecking a Hamas radio station.

The sparring made little difference on the ground: The two Palestinian territories, on either side of Israel, are now separate entities with two governments — one run by Hamas and backed by radical Islamic states, and the other controlled by the Western-supported Fatah.

Abbas received immediate pledges of support from Israel, the U.S., Egypt, Jordan, the U.N. and Saudi Arabia.

The Bush administration hinted Friday that it may resume some payments to the Palestinians now that a U.S.-backed moderate is in charge of a consolidated government in the West Bank.

"We're going to take a look, given the changed circumstances with the new Palestinian government, at what we might do," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak by phone that he would take steps to bolster Abbas. Officials in Olmert's office said he would consider releasing hundreds of millions of dollars in tax receipts frozen after Hamas came to power.

Though the moderate government that Abbas plans to appoint will have no say in Gaza, it stands a stronger chance than the Hamas-Fatah coalition it replaces of restoring foreign aid to the West Bank.

The yearlong aid embargo imposed after the Hamas election victory has crippled the Palestinian economy, and many Gazans feared they would become even more isolated and impoverished.

In a West Bank hotel, several Fatah loyalists who fled Gaza sat in the lobby chain-smoking and worked the phones to set up new lives, hearing from relatives in Gaza that their homes had been searched.

In Gaza City, a government worker who ran the operations room in the main police compound, called his old office and pleaded with the new Hamas rulers to care for the computers. He gave only his first name, Hani, because he feared for his safety despite Hamas' amnesty offer.

Several thousand Hamas supporters in Gaza cheered as a small armored personnel carrier seized from Abbas' forces rolled into the Palestinian legislature compound, where a victory march was held.

A jubilant crowd chanted slogans and waved green Hamas flags as gunmen fired in the air. Many wore green hats and headbands. Excited children climbed over the vehicle, and bearded armed men strutted around the parliamentary building, grinning from ear to ear.

Hamas was both cocky and conciliatory.

It released nine senior Fatah leaders and many lower-ranking activists, saying it was granting amnesty to its rivals. Hamas spokesman Abu Obeideh also promised to get BBC journalist Alan Johnston, held since March, released quickly. He said Hamas has made contact with the captors and is taking "serious and practical steps" to win his release.

Yet Hamas gunmen also entered the seaside compound used by Abbas on visits to Gaza, rifling through the president's belongings in his bedroom, next to his office. They lifted the mattress and searched drawers.

One gunman sat at the desk of the Fatah leader, who is also known as Abu Mazen, picked up the phone and pretended to call Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "Hello, Rice?" the gunman said. "Here we are in Abu Mazen's office. Say hello to Abu Mazen for me."

Gaza's streets, deserted during the fighting, were crowded with cars, pedestrians and triumphant Hamas fighters, some driving in jeeps and firing in the air.

[closethippy]

As a Palestinian I find it amazing how melodramatic the news media gets whenever something happens with Hamas.
I remember when the wheelchair bound leader of Hamas was blown to pieces by an Israeli missile. The local radio talk shows were talking about the event as if a new era had dawn upon us, a new era that will be fraught with danger. People were calling expressing all kinds of fears, and prejudices, about Palestinians.
And I'm thinking to myself, "Gee, it's just an old man in a wheel chair. What's the freaking big deal, guys?!"
And now look at the article above, "a historic and horrific event", "creation of terrorist mini-state", and so on.
What ***, man. The flare for drama Americans have is embarrasing to watch and at times madenning. It's really upsetting to see how the US makes the biggest deal out of nothing. In the case of Iraq's WMDs, literally nothing.
How can you go on scaring yourselves like that? What purpose does it serve? Can't you see how you get yourselves and everyone else in trouble?
The mistake Abbas made is that unlike Arafat he was unwilling to work with militant groups like Hamas.
This would not have happened and it never happened under Arafat because the man knew how to deal with these groups.
Abbas presides over a very corrupt party and Hamas let him know that. It's not the end of the world, or whatever you want to think to scare yourselves.
You want things to get better? END THE FREAKING OCCUPATION. Just for once, do it!!!

[drquest]

As an American I am thinking why in the f*** is every item reported by the media siezed upon by the middle east and used to whine about the something the US did or did not do. If I was a palestinian, I would be more focused on what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank, oh wait you probably live in the US then don't you?

This action By Hamas is probably the best thing that could've happened for the West Bank. Lets move on.

[elengil]

closethippy, the occupation *was* over in Gaza, and this was the result.

[hmmagain]

' ... If there's 10 billion folk each w/ 317 new songs & dances a day, why can't i find the 100,000 s&ds nearest me?
if there's a tiny percentage of the world dancing get sick soon tax the world first strike on the trail songs on all the front pages, how are the get well soon feed the world first aid on the trail folk making their ends meet? if food & medicine volunteers are feeding the world by making everyone pay for lunch, are they really feeding the world, or just starving it in the names of peace & prosperity? (there's more food thrown away each day than is needed to feed the world)? if we closed vietnam & opened dare in the school houses, have we considered nuking the scools as we considered in vietnam? & why wage war against foreign drug lords in local schools, isn't that like spanking washington by roasting fish at the beach? if kid age five & less absorb 99 plus percent of all spankings, & that figure only comes more close to 100% during wartime (as children are more likely to die in war than are soldiers), then shouldn't we forgive those who wage wars instead of killing kids to punish them? ... '

[closethippy]

There's an occupation of the borders and air space and sea shores. Of course there's an occupation.
What comes, what goes: Israeli permission or it won't happen.
Smells like an occupation, feels like an occupation, it secretes like an occupation.

[yea-right]

Hamas....the terrorist organization which stands up for what they believe is right! Yea-right! They can stand up, or sit down at the former President's desk (see pics), but they have to do it anonymously with those stupid masks on. Come on, if you believe that it's right, then have the "kahunas" to do it publicly or do you fear for your life and getting what you deserve!

[rhs648]

Fatah and Hamas have done Israel, the United States, and the world a great favor. So much for the idea of two states, Israel and Palestine. Instead, we may see two weakened entities, Gaza and the West Bank, warring with each other for many years. This appears to be another example of Arafat's and Fatah's legacy. How sad that the Palestinians could have seized the opportunity for peace with Israel and statehood for the Palestinians but chose not to. Sort of use it or lose it.

[closethippy]

It's Israel that has refused to implement the revelant UN resolutions to the situation for over 40 years.
Under international law it is Israel that is suppose to do that and not Hamas, or Fatah, or your aunt.
But Israel has decided that Palestinians are not worthy of the same rights every one else in the world are born into.
It's like the US saying that since Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites don't get along the US has the right to confiscate land in Iraq and transfer Americans unto it, and forget about international law and human rights and all that stuff.
It's incredible how people all of a sudden are sympathizing with the same Fatah they derided for decades because of being so corrupt and, in the word of an Isreaeli PM, "irrelevant".
Before Hamas won the elections fair and square Israel and the US had Abbas and Fatah alone in power for an entire year. And for an entire year they simply ignore Abbas and called him "irrelevant".
And now you guys are shocked, shocked, things are not going your way.
So keep waiting for the right Palestinian to show up, keep waiting before granting Palestinians their birthrights, it's been 40 years why not wait another 40 years. Just don't act surprise when your plans fall apart because people are getting more desperate.
Don't act surprised and save us your hypocrisy.

[pastdue1]

posted by closethippy
"The flare for drama Americans have is embarrasing to watch and at times madenning. It's really upsetting to see how the US makes the biggest deal out of nothing. In the case of Iraq's WMDs, literally nothing.How can you go on scaring yourselves like that? What purpose does it serve? Can't you see how you get yourselves and everyone else in trouble?
The mistake Abbas made is that unlike Arafat he was unwilling to work with militant groups like Hamas."
These statements are the most astute statements that have been posted in these comments. However, we must understand that our governments and our media have not always been so irresponsible and "wolf crying." But, ever since we have decided that there is an "axis of evil" that must be corrected ~ money can be made and extorted from our government.

[neoconrcrazy]

"five days of bloodshed that claimed more than 90 lives. "


as "civil wars" go, this one was very short and relatively bloodless.

all the pundits crying "divide and conquer", "suicide of the palestinians", can rest assured that the Hamas group is the legitimate respresentative of the palestinian people.

Hamas will made a deal, but only a fair one -"swiss-chesse" offers from israel like Camp David will be rejected.

Great thing democracy - but the rule is you have to accept the results. Why should we decide for them? Look at what an effort in iraq has brought US.

[neoconrcrazy]

Don't act surprised and save us your hypocrisy.



Posted by closethippy


What a refreshing posting! Thank you. I'm sure you, as I do, accept israels' right to exist (isn't that what we all must say before uttering a word?)!

But let's try to be fair! Your points regarding their refusal to speak with Fatah, or anyone else for that matter is the problem. israel will not face the fact that they are illegally occupying palestinian lands and are hiding behind US.

We must force israel to comply to UN resolutions and return to her 1967 borders!

[neoconrcrazy]

I don't even know why anyone bothers to comment on this and even mention the Israelis as a serious factor. They left. This is Palestinian Arab against Palestinian Arab for the title Great Leader of the SECOND most pathetic nation in the world.



Posted by clgl_fubar at

i guess you want to say israel is the 1st?

anyway, if the israelis have "left" as you say, why do 90mm artillery rounds keep crashing into residential building killing woen and children?

And why do israeli helicopers launch missles from above in "targeted" assassinations, killing innocent passersby?

[pwrslm]

Israel has been negotiating for peace with these people for over 50 years. Every agreement they made they have broken. Every time the come to an agreement, Isreal has conceded more, and more, concessions, effectively getting nothing in return.

Israeli people have suffered the barrages of mortars and rockets being fired into thier homes and cities for years. Any other nation on this Earth would have mobilized and gone to war to stop this, except Israel. When they take offensive action to defend thier peoples, the world convicts them. Israel is not held to the same standards of justice and truth that all other nations are guaranteed, even the UN holds substantial prejudist against Israel, supporting the terrorism that aflict her people.

Hamas victory is nothing more than a guarantee for war. The Arabs in the Palestine legislature finally overturned the Palestine Charter that stated that the Arabs duty in Palestine was to wipe Isreal off the map and establish thier own state, that Palestine Government no longer exists, its duely elected Arab leaders are either dead or have fled the region to seek safety.

Less than 10 years later, Hamas siezes power, and now we must contend with an organizational wing of the Muslim Brotherhood that also calls for the total destruction of Israel.

[pwrslm]

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters. "

[radiob-2009]

Posted by neoconRcrazy

Is it wrong for Israel to ask anyone to acknowledge their right to exist? Is it wrong to defend yourself against a barrage of rockets fired indisriminately on your citizens? Should not the extremist recognize the will of the populace they are supposed to be representing instead of attacking the very populace they are supposed to be representing.

[pwrslm]

These people do not want Gaza and the West Bank. If they did, they would have accepted it in 1948 with open arms, and they could have been a state in the region just like Israel.

Until they aquire "all" of the palsetine territory, they will not be happy. That was the original goal when every Arab Nation attacked Israel when it was formed, to drive the Jewish Zionist into the sea and for a single Arab State. With the victory of Hamas, it is the same goal, stated without reservation, of the decendents of Arabs who originally refused Peace with Israel 59 years ago...Islam is a religion of intollerance.

[radiob-2009]

Posted by pwrslm

62% of the populace of both the Israelis and Palestinians want peace and the Camp David Peace Accords to become a reality.

[pwrslm]

1. There is no such thing as a "palestinian". They are, and will continue to be, Arabs, though most of them cleave to Islam and a political system.

2. The polls that come out of that region seeking Muslim/Jew unity are from a minority, and they can not be trusted. The results are skewed, and sometime outright misrepresented.

3. Until the Muslims adopt a peace plan, allowing the existance of Israel, there will not be peace in the region. For the last 59 years, these people have used cunning and deciet in all negotiations with Israel. As Arafat put it;

April 16, 1998:
"My colleagues in struggle and in arms, my colleagues in struggle and in jihad [holy war] Intensify the revolution and the blessed intifada. Reinforce the strong stance and strengthen the faith. We must burn the ground under the feet of the invaders."

[neoconrcrazy]

"By May 1, 1948, two weeks before the Israeli Declaration of Independence, nearly 175,000 Palestinians had fled Israel.[3]

The fighting in these months was concentrated in the Jerusalem - Tel Aviv area, where consequently, most depopulations took place. The Deir Yassin massacre in early April, and the exaggerated rumours that followed it, helped spread fear and panic among the Palestinians (Morris[4], p. 264).

By the estimates of Morris, 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinians became refugees during this stage (Morris[4], p. 262). Keesing's Contemporary Archives in London place the total number of refugees before Israel's independence at 300,000.[5]


Beeny Morris is an israeli historian. Read and learn.

[neoconrcrazy]

Is it wrong for Israel to ask anyone to acknowledge their right to exist?

Posted by radiob


israel exists de facto but illegally outside her borders under international law and UN resolutions.

getting to your question -

is it right to pre-condition sensitive negotiations by such academic questions?

most palestinians say they do not know what israel is referred to; the legitimate pre-1967 israel or the occupying israel.

[radiob-2009]

2. The polls that come out of that region seeking Muslim/Jew unity are from a minority, and they can not be trusted. The results are skewed, and sometime outright misrepresented.
Posted by pwrslm

The Harry S Truman Institute, Near East Consulting and there are many more that state the same thing.If one were to continue to stereotype one side or the other in this conflict as being against peace then they are doing nothing more than advocating further violence. There are extremist on both sides of this who do not want peace fortunately they are a minority.

[neoconrcrazy]

There is no such thing as a "palestinian".

Posted by pwrslm


there is a name for that sickness which does not allow a person to accept reality - what is it called? oh, self-delusion.

if you have the stomach watch the news and you'll see hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza waving green flags - all Palestinians.

[radiob-2009]

most palestinians say they do not know what israel is referred to; the legitimate pre-1967 israel or the occupying israel.


Posted by neoconRcrazy

And where is the proof of this statement? Where is the survey? Or is this a assertation of yours?
Feeding hatred only breeds more hatred and ignorance.

[pwrslm]

more Arafat statements (to give you an idea why Hamas got along with Arafat)



Whoever thinks of stopping the uprising before it achieves its goals, I will give him ten bullets in the chest.

Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell land to Israelis

Since we cannot defeat Israel in war; we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.


The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine.


We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.

-- Yasser Arafat

[radiob-2009]

there is a name for that sickness which does not allow a person to accept reality - what is it called? oh, self-delusion.

if you have the stomach watch the news and you'll see hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza waving green flags - all Palestinians.


Posted by neoconRcrazy


This is the same argument someone else was making in regards to the Israelis and you did not object then, what is the difference? That one takes your position so therefore is defendable while the other opposes your perceived position is not? There is a word for this.

[radiob-2009]

1. There is no such thing as a "palestinian". They are, and will continue to be, Arabs, though most of them cleave to Islam and a political system.

Posted by pwrslm


A bit racist do you not think? This is the same position that Hamas and other extremist take on the flip side of the coin.This feeds more hatred.

[pwrslm]

If one were to continue to stereotype one side or the other in this conflict as being against peace then they are doing nothing more than advocating further violence. Posted by radiob

Just as I said, any poll they push that fails to provide a full, comprehensive exposure of the truth, is nothing more than a farce. This statement you made demonstrates that point of origin, to ignore that causes by using rhetoric. Its not ignoring peaceful hopes of the populace as much as it is failing to reveal the whole mindset that causes the continuing violence. Of course a mother of 5 children wants peace, right up to the time one of them is recruited into jihad as a suicide bomber for a buss load of Jewish women and children.

Separating the governance of Islam under the muslim mindset gives us an inaccurate view of situation, which is one of absolute intollerance against any non muslim occupying what they percieve to be territory that is "waqf" ( an inheritance decreed by God) for Islam (which is, essentially, the entire earth).

[neoconrcrazy]

There is no such thing as a "palestinian".

Posted by pwrslm


another reflection, maybe you were right before 1939. there was no palestinian unity but that changed quickly as jewish immigration began uncontrolled and zionists bought vast framlands from illiterate peasants - rumbling began already then, even violence.

since 1948 when the UN declared israel a state, (it had always been referred to previously as a "National Homeland" to avoid conflict with the local population), and forgot the local inhabitants, over 750'000 palestinians were asked to leave, forced to leave. Palestinian identity was formed.

Since 1967 and the wholesale occupation and theft of Palestinian lands, the resistance movement became a reality and as Irun and the Stern Gang did it their time, killing innocents by bomb and bullet, so were the "terrorist" groups we have today doing the same thing.

israel created all the "terrorists"; Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah.

[pwrslm]

A bit racist do you not think? This is the same position that Hamas and other extremist take on the flip side of the coin.This feeds more hatred.

Posted by radiob

No, its the truth. Before 1963, the term "palestinian" was used by Arabs as a derogatory referrence to Jews. Only from that point forward, did any Arab/Muslim claim to be a palestinian.

The real Palestinians are Jews, from the time of the Romans. The renamed Israel as an example, using the name of the philistine's to disrespect the Jews after they rebelled against Rome. Arabs are not palestinians, nor Israelites. This is the core truth. There will be no peace until the Arabs accept it, and set aside thier plan, put in force by Arafat, to destroy Israel.

[neoconrcrazy]

most palestinians say they do not know what israel is referred to; the legitimate pre-1967 israel or the occupying israel.

Posted by neoconRcrazy

And where is the proof of this statement?

Posted by radiob


I heard from the BBC interview with the Hamas leader after his partys' election last year. It was the first question the brritish journalist asked him. I'll try to find a reference but, as GWB says, you can believe me.

[radiob-2009]

Posted by pwrslm at

Have you ever read any of the polls and how the questions are worded or conducted? Have you ever actually encountered anyone that is a practicing Muslim? You have taken the discussion from being one about the territories to be about the religion of Muslims. Did not Martin Luther advocate the destruction and enslavement of the Jews? Did all "Christians" believe him and follow his words? No because in the heart of every civilized human being wrests a soul of compassion and tolerance not of blind ignorance and hatred.

[pwrslm]

Posted by neoconRcrazy

Ive heard your lies from KKK, White Supremacists, Nazi's, and Muslims, and the only thing different today than yesterday, is that they continue to be repeated by ignorant people.

[radiob-2009]

I heard from the BBC interview with the Hamas leader after his partys' election last year. It was the first question the brritish journalist asked him. I'll try to find a reference but, as GWB says, you can believe me.


Posted by neoconRcrazy


One man????? Is the source of your statement, might as well ask your dog if he is hungry with a bowl of food in front of him.

[pwrslm]

Posted by pwrslm at

Have you ever read any of the polls and how the questions are worded or conducted? Have you ever actually encountered anyone that is a practicing Muslim? You have taken the discussion from being one about the territories to be about the religion of Muslims. Did not Martin Luther advocate the destruction and enslavement of the Jews? Did all "Christians" believe him and follow his words? No because in the heart of every civilized human being wrests a soul of compassion and tolerance not of blind ignorance and hatred.
Posted by radiob


Wasnt it Christian Nations (ie..Brittain and the USA) that established the State of Isreal in 1949? Why not recognize that there are no Christians today in Israel calling for the destruction of the Jewish Homeland?

Does the faults of men acting under the guise of Christians hundreds of years ago give rise to justice today, in the muslims stated goals (to wipe Israel off the map, to drive the Jews into the Sea, to burn the Jewish State to the ground)?

You speak of propoganda machines disguised as polls, and reach back to the history of the European Continent when Jews fled the Romans brutality, and 2000 years of hatred and persecution, by men, to justify todays violence?

No, I dont buy into the lie. Until all peoples respect and recognize all of the facts provided by history, proving the right of the people who are Jews to thier homeland, to include muslim and arab alike, then there can be no peace.

[pwrslm]

Posted by pwrslm at

Have you ever read any of the polls and how the questions are worded or conducted? Have you ever actually encountered anyone that is a practicing Muslim? You have taken the discussion from being one about the territories to be about the religion of Muslims. Did not Martin Luther advocate the destruction and enslavement of the Jews? Did all "Christians" believe him and follow his words? No because in the heart of every civilized human being wrests a soul of compassion and tolerance not of blind ignorance and hatred.
Posted by radiob


Wasnt it Christian Nations (ie..Brittain and the USA) that established the State of Isreal in 1949? Why not recognize that there are no Christians today in Israel calling for the destruction of the Jewish Homeland?

Does the faults of men acting under the guise of Christians hundreds of years ago give rise to justice today, in the muslims stated goals (to wipe Israel off the map, to drive the Jews into the Sea, to burn the Jewish State to the ground)?

You speak of propoganda machines disguised as polls, and reach back to the history of the European Continent when Jews fled the Romans brutality, and 2000 years of hatred and persecution, by men, to justify todays violence?

No, I dont buy into the lie. Until all peoples respect and recognize all of the facts provided by history, proving the right of the people who are Jews to thier homeland, to include muslim and arab alike, then there can be no peace.

[radiob-2009]

another reflection, maybe you were right before 1939. there was no palestinian unity but that changed quickly as jewish immigration began uncontrolled and zionists bought vast framlands from illiterate peasants - rumbling began already then, even violence.


The bought purchased the land from illiterate peasants so what is the difference between this and common real estate transactions? Land being purchased from others is not stolen, a price is paid albeit perhaps not fair price but this occurs in real estate all the time. Should I feel sorry for the individuals that I purchased my property from at 35% below market value because they did not know market value. The responsibilty wrest with them and their agent to inform them of fair value not the buyer.

[radiob-2009]

You speak of propoganda machines disguised as polls, and reach back to the history of the European Continent when Jews fled the Romans brutality, and 2000 years of hatred and persecution, by men, to justify todays violence?

No, I dont buy into the lie. Until all peoples respect and recognize all of the facts provided by history, proving the right of the people who are Jews to thier homeland, to include muslim and arab alike, then there can be no peace.

Posted by pwrslm



I do not justify the violence never did and never will.The last part of your statement I have no quarrels with.

[neoconrcrazy]

"There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the expulsion (Nakba) of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 %u2013 is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the explusion to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive.
Christian Science Monitor, Feb.2, 2007 article : What Israel's "right to exist" means to Palestinians

[radiob-2009]

You speak of propoganda machines disguised as polls, and reach back to the history of the European Continent when Jews fled the Romans brutality, and 2000 years of hatred and persecution, by men, to justify todays violence?


This is the same statement that the opposition to Israel states, that the polls are not to be trusted are not reliable.Just as the opposition states that there are no Jews you have reversed the statement to being there are no Palestinians.
Seems the opposition to Israel existence and you have more in common than you would like to admit.

[neoconrcrazy]

One man?????

Posted by radiob


the one man happens to be the leader of Hamas,
whether you believe it not, it is true.

and logical, but the Christian Science Monitor article hits the nail on the head.

[pwrslm]

Posted by neoconRcrazy

Ive heard your lies from KKK, White Supremacists, Nazi's, and Muslims, and the only thing different today than yesterday, is that they continue to be repeated by ignorant people.
Posted by pwrslm at 08:16 AM : Jun 16, 2007

[radiob-2009]

Posted by neoconRcrazy

And all of this continues to justify the violence that occurs, the poverty that is imposed not just by the failure to release funds but also the failure for the Arab world to invest in the economy of the Palestinians. This will never end as long as the partys involved and the world continue to allow the hypocrisy of themselves.

[pwrslm]

Posted by radiob

If you repeat propoganda, gossip, and rumors, its still propoganda, gossip, and rumors.

The only way to step forward is by using the truth. The truth is that all the condemnation against Israels use of force for decades ignored the cause of the use of force, which was the use of force by the Arab population. Isreal has been, and continues to be, under attack from Arab populations. In the last 6 years, since the declaration of the infitada by Arafat, there have been over 22 thousand attacks against Israel by these Arab who call themselves palestinians. In addition to that, more than 300 rockets have been fired into civilian areas by those same people, most of them under control of Hamas.

If any other nation in the world came under that type of attack, there would no condemnation by the UN or any member state for that nation to defend its borders and its peoples.

[pwrslm]

as the opposition states that there are no Jews you have reversed the statement to being there are no Palestinians.
Posted by radiob


Thats not true. I stated that historically, the palestinians are the Jews. Arafat siezed on the idea that if the Arabs claimed to be palestinians, he could convince them that they had a right to the Jews Homeland.

Its not true, the territory was renamed by the Romans, that is where the term comes from. The Romans named the territory after the Jews worst enemie, the Philistines, who were destroyed by Israel, and its remnants absorbed into Jewish populations. It was called Israel before the Romans, just as it is today.

[radiob-2009]

Hatred begats hatred and nothing else. This vicious cycle will continue until the hatred is removed.

[infidel_us]

"Reconciliation In Palestine"

Hey, satanic muslims.......she's probably a good example of what your 72 virgins looks like! Man, can you just imagine what that cooter smells like? Dressed in black, in the hot sun, probably hasn't bathed for weeks.........YUCK!!!!

[rushlimpdrug]

So are these people happy now?
I have a weekend to enjoy, hope they enjoy theirs.

[pwrslm]

Hatred begats hatred and nothing else. This vicious cycle will continue until the hatred is removed.
Posted by radiob

Thats what I have been talking about. The source is Islam.

[radiob-2009]

Thats what I have been talking about. The source is Islam.
Posted by pwrslm


Read some of the comments of other posters and you will find it is not singular in its divisiveness nor is it singular to a specific religion or ideology.

[neoconrcrazy]

The only way to step forward is by using the truth. The truth is that all the condemnation against Israels use of force for decades ignored the cause of the use of force...

Posted by pwrslm

it being obvious you do not hold any monopoly on the "truth" -

the truth is that israels' use of overwhelming force against stones, bottles, ineffective "missles" (more like 4th july stuff),
for the last 40 years IS BECAUSE OF OCCUPATION and
annexation of other peoples land.

They covet their neignbors land and that's the truth.