NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 2008
The Killings In Haditha
Marine Tells 60 Minutes He's Sorry Iraqi Civilians Were Killed, But Insists He Made Right Decision
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Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich speaks publicly about the Haditha killings for the first time with 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley. (CBS)
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Iraq: 5 Years At War
Five years after the U.S.-led invasion, the war wears on.
In that second house was the Younis family. A 41-year-old man, a 35-year-old woman, a 28-year-old woman, and the children -- Noor, 14; Sabah, 9; Zaineb, 3; and Aisha, 2. They were all killed by Wuterich's men.
How does he explain that?
"We reacted to how we were supposed to react to our training and I did that to the best of my ability. You know the rest of the Marines that were there, they did their job properly as well. Did we know that civilians were in there? No. Did we go in those rooms, you know, it would have been one thing, if we went in those rooms and looked at everyone and shot them. You know, we cleared these houses the way they were supposed to be cleared," he says.
Prosecutors have charged Wuterich with murdering 18 people. Among them the people at the car and those in the first house when he ordered his men to “shoot first, ask questions later.” Prosecutors say he shot six people in the second house. Wuterich told 60 Minutes that he never fired his weapon. The rules said Wuterich and his Marines were supposed to identify a threat before firing, but the rules also said they could use all necessary force to defend themselves.
"In an insurgency situation, Marines don't get a second chance If they aren't able to fire first, they die," says Neil Puckett, who, along with Mark Zaid, are Wuterich’s civilian attorneys.
How can they make the argument that these killings are within the law?
"They're within the law because they were not done without legal justification or excuse," Puckett says. "They were done in a combat environment, in a tactical situation, in order to protect the lives of the remaining Marines who survived the IED that day. And that makes them lawful."
Zaid adds: "And these three one Marines knew -- their buddies and colleagues who had tried to do similar take downs of houses where they tried, in fact, to knock first and shoot later. And the Marines who tried that were dead."
60 Minutes wanted to know more about how Marines face this choice - between killing civilians or risking their men. We spoke to a Marine who led a platoon through some of the most hostile territory in Iraq. Donovan Campbell, now a Reserve Captain, estimates he cleared at least 50 houses.
"We have a saying: 'Always know your target and what’s beyond it. And no matter what, whether you think you’re probably going kill everyone inside, you still need to know exactly what your target is. 'Who is it that I’m shooting when I go through the door,'" Campbell says.
Campbell was not in Haditha and he makes no judgment about what the Marines did there. But he told 60 Minutes, in general, identifying the enemy is critical and has everything to do with the amount of force used to clear a house.
Are there circumstances under which you’d declare an entire house hostile and go in with the intention of just killing everyone inside?
Campbell says yes. "You have to have the context of heavy enemy involvement in the area and then I think you have to have a more specific operating context that deals specifically with that house. You know there are several insurgents inside and you need to go in and get them out because they are attacking you."
How does one know? Campbell tells Pelley almost always, you have to see them.
"In your opinion," asks Pelley," you have to lay eyes on someone with a weapon in that house in order to assault the house and kill everyone inside?”
Campbell says, "Yes, but you never go in with the intention of I’m going to kill every living soul inside."
Produced by Shawn Efran and Solly Granatstein
© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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See all 411 CommentsI have to wonder what would have been said about our soldiers in WWI and WWII had to media been so rampantly disrespectful of what our soldiers had to do, to stay alive back in those days. Ever wonder what you would do in a similar situation? Bet it wouldn''t be the reaction you''d hope for.
A very judgemental episode. First time I''ve ever been ashamed of 60 Minutes in the 30+ years I''ve been watching.
If justice demands someone pay for these deaths, and it should, then it demands the Bush administration stand trial for leading us to Iraq with what is now known to be nothing but a pack of lies.
The Marine (Sgt Wuterich) did exactly as I would have done under the same circumstances. I am a Viet Nam veteran ( 9 years enlisted and 15 years as an officer) who told my Marines in Viet Nam if they saw anything that looked suspicous, shoot it. We will check later. There are many Mothers and Wives who will agree with that concept because their son/husband came home alive. I am so tired of all the non-combatents who make moral judgements on our combat men and women. Split second decisions must be made by our front line leaders (mostly enlisted Non-commistioned officers). Under no circunstances can a person who has never been in harms way judge who is to live and who is to die, including local civilians who are hostile toward our troops. Rules of engagement have cost Military lives. I have witnessed women, children and old people that would kill you if given the chance. My job is not to play God- my job is to make sure my Marines and I stay alive.
Semper Fi
William Hemlepp Sr
Major USMC (Ret)
disgusted in MT.
I am 35 years old and have no military experience. But I do understand that it is kill or be killed when you are at war. You do not have time to second guess your decisions. I believe that the US has not been allowed to win a war since WWII. With all the media coverage that sets back and makes judgements after something happens. Anyone can do that. Put them on the line and see if they make the right choice everytime. War is War and people are going to get hurt or killed. War is not a Hollywood movie where only the bad guys get shot.
Nobody in their right mind wants to see innocent people killed and from this young Marine''s body language I am sure he did not want to kill innocent people. But he had been attacked. His comrads had been blown up. The area he was operating in was highly volatile. I don''t know why your reporter was so surprised at this Marine''s reaction. His reaction may well have been wrong. I don''t know what I would have done and I am sure your sanctimonious reporter can be absolutely sure what he would have done.
There is an erie similarity between his invasion of these Iraqi houses and President Bush''s invasion of Iraq. Bush believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, while Sgt Wuterich believed the Iraqis in the houses had weapons of destruction just as deadly to him and his men as those WMD''s Pres. Bush believed in.
I believe that Pres. Bush''s belief in WMDs was a little more of a stretch than that of Sgt. Wuterich.
How can you hold him to a hirer standard than The Pres.
Pelley is typical of most of the news (entertainers) on the air today. They have never had the responsibilities that the sgt. had on his shoulders that night and have absolutely no understanding of combat. They are armchair commando''s who sit in judgement on our troops with the advantage of knowledge that the sgt. had no way of knowing at the time. For him to speak so condesendingly to combat Marines is disgusting. Of course he is sorry for any innocent victims in this case however hindsite is only available to survivors and those who weren''t there.
Murtha should know better. In my opinion he has moved from ''former'' to ''ex''.
Semper Fi
We are going to as the United States of America justify and blame our Marines for doing their job.
Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich by the way who was 25 years of age had a family, but is now divorced because of his duty to his country.
Scott Pelley questioned Sgt. Wuterich as if he was the enemy as he sat in his 60 minutes chair in his suit. Was Mr. Pelley ever in combat? This is an outrage. I am not an individual who believes in this war, but I am an individual who believes in our servicemen 110%.
I don%u2019t recall Iraq apologizing to anyone in this war or 911.
Hello America, this is ridiculous. One has to believe that when we go to war we need our service men to spend time with the enemy families instead being in combat. It is devastating when anyone is killed. We all suffer for these families.
The majority of Americans, I believe, are compassionate and are devastated about violence and the war but to put one of our servicemen on a network for the whole world to identify and target is a travesty. So now the enemy can say how horrible Americans truly are and they would be justified in another attack on the US.
I do not believe in murder but this surely wasn%u2019t as we sit in our comfortable chair and judge actions thousands of miles away during time of war. I think judgment is in the eye of the beholder.
This was war!
silver-spooned civilian know that he is serving his country, so that Pelly can sit there like the smug, accusational, prima donna he is and conduct this interview. shame on the marines for allowing this
soldier to fight a battle he''s not trained for. i''d like to see that self-righteous son of a *** Pelly bully a soldier with some brass on his shoulder, he''d be crucified! Buck Fush!!!! A real president would have ended this fiasco long ago, now he''s going to pass the buck to the next political sucker.
What a joke!
Have you been through Marine boot camp? We are taught to shoot first as questions later. Once I was in the Marines, the title I am greatly proud of.
These Marines are doing their job, this what we have been trained to do.
To me it seems as we are repeating the story here. We have Border Patrol agents put in jail for doing their job, Mexican Government telling our government what to do, now this with the Marines. Our nation can''t afford to be PC. During WWII nothing like this happend. Where is the back bone of our goverment? Who''s getting paid off What special interest groups are involved?
60 Min. You have vets who are reporters. This doesn''t anger you? It pains me to see other Marines questioned for their duty to country. 60 min, perhaps you need to have your sons and daughters enlist, have them kill people in the name of freedom, and them lets see how you feel when you see your flesh and blood questioned on national T.V.
I SUPPORT THE MARINES 100%
SEMPER FI
Have you been through Marine boot camp? We are taught to shoot first as questions later. Once I was in the Marines, the title I am greatly proud of.
These Marines are doing their job, this what we have been trained to do.
To me it seems as we are repeating the story here. We have Border Patrol agents put in jail for doing their job, Mexican Government telling our government what to do, now this with the Marines. Our nation can''t afford to be PC. During WWII nothing like this happend. Where is the back bone of our goverment? Who''s getting paid off What special interest groups are involved?
60 Min. You have vets who are reporters. This doesn''t anger you? It pains me to see other Marines questioned for their duty to country. 60 min, perhaps you need to have your sons and daughters enlist, have them kill people in the name of freedom, and them lets see how you feel when you see your flesh and blood questioned on national T.V.
I SUPPORT THE MARINES 100%
SEMPER FI
Have you been through Marine boot camp? We are taught to shoot first as questions later. Once I was in the Marines, the title I am greatly proud of.
These Marines are doing their job, this what we have been trained to do.
To me it seems as we are repeating the story here. We have Border Patrol agents put in jail for doing their job, Mexican Government telling our government what to do, now this with the Marines. Our nation can''t afford to be PC. During WWII nothing like this happend. Where is the back bone of our goverment? Who''s getting paid off What special interest groups are involved?
60 Min. You have vets who are reporters. This doesn''t anger you? It pains me to see other Marines questioned for their duty to country. 60 min, perhaps you need to have your sons and daughters enlist, have them kill people in the name of freedom, and them lets see how you feel when you see your flesh and blood questioned on national T.V.
I SUPPORT THE MARINES 100%
SEMPER FI
Shawn Quinlivan
Amen.
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