Can Bush Fund Faith-Base Conferences?

Supreme Court To Hear First Amendment Case Challenging The White House's First Initiative

(CBS)  One of the first initiatives George W. Bush pushed as president will be challenged next week in the Supreme Court. As CBS News correspondent Thalia Assuras reports, the high court will hear arguments on Wednesday in the first First Amendment case directly related to Mr. Bush's faith-based programs.

Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor don't seem like much of a threat, but if they have their way, faith-based conferences – like the one the president hosted in Washington on March of 2006 – could disappear.

"I appreciate your attendance," Mr. Bush said at the second White House National Conference on Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. "I take this conference very seriously."

The conferences, one component of Mr. Bush's faith-based initiative, are designed to help religious groups get access to federal funding. Eleven cabinet offices have centers for faith-based programs, which operate in many states to help those in need.

In 2006, a lower court said the Freedom from Religion Foundation, headed by Gaylor and Barker, had legal standing as taxpayers to challenge the White House practice of spending money on the conferences. The administration appealed the case to the Supreme Court.

"We're challenging the creation of the faith-based offices at the White House and cabinet levels," Gaylor said. "And their faith based bureaucracy, what they've set up, with multi-million dollars."

Their argument: that the funding of the conferences violates the separation between church and state and is unconstitutional. The president has insisted the programs are on the correct side of that wall and that they work.

"If you're addicted to alcohol, if a faith program is able to get you off alcohol, we ought to say hallelujah and thanks at the federal level," Mr. Bush said at the 2006 conference.

"I understand people saying I don't like my money going to that particular process, but, you know what, you and I both pay taxes, and there are things the government funds that I don't like," said Jay Sekulow, Chief Counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice. "But that's part of the deal, part of being American. You can't simply object because your portion of your tax dollars is going to something you really don't like. It's just not the way the system works.

Sekulow's group has filed a friend of the court brief supporting the administration in the upcoming case.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation has brought successful challenges to faith-based programs in the past, including "MentorKids" – a program that had its funding suspended in 2005 after the foundation sued claiming the group accepted only church-going mentors.

If this week's court case challenging the conferences is decided against them, Gaylor and Barker say they won't give up.

"We can still challenge individual applications. We can still go after the MentorKids. We can still go after specific allocations if we do see violations of church-state separation," Barker said. "So that wouldn't stop."

[tuckerndfw]

The US government cannot (legally) support any religious organization.

If the White House wants to bribe religious extremists, it needs to do so with its own money.

Funding "faith based" anything is an inappropriate, unconstitutional use of tax dollars.

If I recall correctly, George Bush issued an executive order to fund this program. That is in itself a violation of the constitution since congress is the only agency authorized to allocate money.

But, the Bush administration has shown a callous disregard for the US Constitution unlike anything seen in our history.

He should be impeached.

[scott4261]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The faith-based programs and the government beurocracy that was created quite clearly violates of the First Amendment. This government endorsed religion, pure and simple.

Funny...the Southern Baptist Convention strongly supported the seperation of church and State until the 1980s. And ever since, they've been trying to shove their brand of Christianity down everyone else's throats.

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked.

[scott4261]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The faith-based programs and the government beurocracy that was created quite clearly violate the First Amendment. This is government endorsed religion, pure and simple.

Funny...the Southern Baptist Convention strongly supported the seperation of church and State until the 1980s. And ever since, they've been trying to shove their brand of Christianity down everyone else's throats.

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked. At all. Period.

[jakebradley2]

"The US government cannot (legally) support any religious organization.

If the White House wants to bribe religious extremists, it needs to do so with its own money.

Funding "faith based" anything is an inappropriate, unconstitutional use of tax dollars.

If I recall correctly, George Bush issued an executive order to fund this program. That is in itself a violation of the constitution since congress is the only agency authorized to allocate money.

But, the Bush administration has shown a callous disregard for the US Constitution unlike anything seen in our history.

He should be impeached.
Posted by tuckerndfw at 07:27 PM : Feb 24, 2007"

----I disagree with the above comment, if the gov. wants to use money to fund faith based things, it is there business. I would gladly give my tax dollars to it.

[dawnking2]

I applaud the efforts of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. The powerbrokers of the so-called Christian Right have moved from the fringes of society to our Congressional floor and the White House. Christianity in this country is big business gone wild, while reaping all the tax breaks that go with it. While Bush panders to his "base," this country marches closer to turning our education and social welfare systems over to the churches, while cleverly chipping away at the wall between church and state. As Pat Robertson often tells believers "our aim is to gain dominion over society." Bush and his cronies have stated openly that God has selected them to lead the American people. History tells us that Adolf Hitler used the same tactics. While Bush is admittedly no Adolf Hitler, he very well may be a transition figure, our very own version of Otto von Bismarck. Bismark used "Christian values" to energize his followers and eventually split the country, which paved the way for the more virulent racism of the Nazi Party. It is my fear that this will be Bush's and the Republican Party's contribution to the U.S.

[scott4261]

Thomas Jefferson (among others) has been rolling in his grave!

[johnshaft4]

The nut job Evangelicals who electd (and re elected) Bush have got to be in turmoil as to why their God chosen emissary has been such abject failure...Remember Bush saying how he reads his Bible and prays everyday? How he was "saved" and "born again"? How 'God' told him to "smite Saddam Hussein, so I smote him".
Bottom line is that this Jewish mythology/fairy tales (Bible BS) has no place in government. It is for low IQ suckers.

[hawksprings]

Sooooo what should we do with this phrase from our Constitution:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Should this be stricken from the record and act like it was never written and believed by our seemingly religious Founding Fathers?

Would that be the politically correct way to rewrite history? It's what the Dems are doing with their quotes on Iraq before the war...

I need some guidance from the Left.
I'm new at this revisionist history thing.


.

[dawnking2]

From the initial posts, it looks as though a bunch of evil intellectuals have congregated here. God save us from the Christians!

[scott4261]

But Hawk, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." in no way endorses a particular relious belief. The reader can interpret Creator in his own persoanl way.

BTW, that was written by Thomas Jefferson, a diest who deliberately wrote this in a way as to not endorse a particular tradition of faith.

Oh, and BTW, that's from the Declaration of Independence.

[scott4261]

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked. At all. Period.

[tuckerndfw]

----I disagree with the above comment, if the gov. wants to use money to fund faith based things, it is there business. I would gladly give my tax dollars to it.

Posted by jakebradley2 at 08:16 PM : Feb 24, 2007

The US Constitution says otherwise.

What you do with your money is your own business; what the government does with taxpayer dollars is all of our business. The Constitution prohibits spending tax dollars on voodoo, witch doctors, tarot card readers, or any other "faith based" hocus pocus nonsense.

But, George Bush also opposes the US Constitution, so you are not alone in your anti-American sentiment.

[scott4261]

John Adams was a religious nutjob. Obviously and regrettably he wasn't the last to assume the presidency.

[hawksprings]

Was Patrick Henry just a Christian Nut Job when he said:

%u201CIt cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.%u201D Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

[scott4261]

I am certain that Benjamin Franklin would NOT want government endorsed religion.

[scott4261]

Hawk, you are grasping at straws here. You can't seem to grasp the central idea of our founding fathers that government and religion are each better off without interference from the other. Perhaps you should go back to the first page of this blog and re-read the First Amendment.

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked. At all. Period.

[tuckerndfw]

Good thing the lunatic rantings of the "founding fathers" who wanted to impose a Christian theocracy on the US were tempered by the more rational elements.

The bottom line is that the founding fathers approved a document that prohibited the government from establishing a religion.

Any religion. As it should be.

And, the Constitution prohibits the president or congress from writing checks to churches on the taxpayer bank account.

[formrusmcsgt]

The conferences, one component of Mr. Bush's faith-based initiative, are designed to help religious groups get access to federal funding.

I can remember a time when churches weren't on the dole. They got their operating funds from their parishoners.

Dubya obviously likes the idea that all of us make donations through our taxes as well.

[johnshaft4]

Lets let the government dole out our tax dollars to what "religions" the govt. deems worthy and real.
This way we can have our very own NATIONAL religion just like the oh so enlightened Saudis have their national Sunni Islam. We can replace the constitution with a Sharia type law.
My tax dollars want our national religion to be of the "Billy Bob Baptist" brand, with Toby Keith hymns and sermons depicitng the world as seen through Pastor Ted rose colored glasses.

[dawnking2]

Hawk, all of us can all quote statements from our founding fathers, some quite contradictory as well, as to their intentions about God, Jesus and the bible. If you really want contradictions, read the bible! However, no one can ignore the fact that religion, and not just Christianity, has been used throughout history by the most corrupt and ruthless to gain control of the masses. Religion is all about control and power. In this respect, the Country's founders sincerely tried to protect us from ourselves. But, I'm afraid the Religious Reich and it's Republican Party, is pushing us clearly towards the religious state.

The extreme right, as well as the President rule as if this were a theocracy. We are really no different than Iran in this regard. We have puppet elections to elect leaders who draw their power and direct us based on "faith", and faith alone. What happened to leaders who directed based on intellect, creativity and good will?

[macusweil]

let's end this greasy and illegal payback, nothing more than a clever neo.com money for votes scheme..

[luvina-2009]

Hi.........I think it is wonderful that poor white or black faith based persons at being met, particularily if they were born in the US. I am 5th generation. It has taken a long time and loads of hard work to get out of poverty. Ilegals get so much for free and rarely do many or a large percentage work full-time........., neither was min wage meant to support a family. Yes, for faith -based as my tax dollars are going to areas I fully do not agree with.......... It seems so much is forced on us these days.

I also would like to say that CBS please show respect and not your personal feelings. ....a president of either party is correctly addressed " President" and not Mr.

[dawnking2]

I hope we all understand that debating with the Christian Reich is useless. We cannot objectively dialogue with these people. They are ideological twins of the Islamic terrorists. They care nothing for rational thought and discussion. The stakes, however, are deadly. They hate us, all in the name of God, of course. They basically hate our liberal enlightened government that was formed by the Constitution. They won't be content until our federal government is gutted.

[johnshaft4]

The reason we are in the mess we are is because a bunch of nut jobs who STILL believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, Noah's ark, biting an apple caused the demise of man, "original sin", woman was created out of one of man's ribs, etc., etc. were allowed to vote in the first place. These psychotics who hear voices from 'god' would love to recreate inquisitions (Spanish/Catholic) of the past to purge those who are not equally insane as them (like the Taliban). This dove tails nicely with their little Christian Crusade that are attempting to pull off in conjunction with the Zionists in the Mid East. What we are witnessing makes one ponder if we are evolving or digressing.

[dawnking2]

Well said, JohnShaft. You should run for President!

[formrusmcsgt]

We cannot objectively dialogue with these people.
Posted by DawnKing2 at 09:11 PM : Feb 24, 2007

If they were objective, they would not choose to believe in fairy tales past childhood.

[formrusmcsgt]

What we are witnessing makes one ponder if we are evolving or digressing.
Posted by JohnShaft4 at 09:22 PM : Feb 24, 2007

Evolution has no answer for intellectual enslavement.

[johnshaft4]

Thanks dawn & fmrsgt-
WE never hear any "reasons" from Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dobson, Swaggert, Marcus Lamb as to why their 'god' chosen Boy Bush candidate that they elected (and re elected) has been such an abject dismal failure. When reality collides with their psychosis, they simply skip/gloss over.
They NEVER discuss the reality of their fine CHRISTIAN leaders such as the crooked Tom DeLay who compared his prosecution to the persecution of Jesus Christ when he was booked and fingerprinted. What a bunch of self deceived, psychotic con artists...

[seven-pesos]

i never met a christian i liked.

pat robertson, jerry falwell, ralph reed, jimmy swaggart...

all christian, all republican, all southerners...

white trash, fat assed, redneck, diseased, pieces of dixie ***...

bush's kind of people.

nothing good comes out of the white trash south.

anybody got a confederate flag so i can wipe my azz?

[scott4261]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The faith-based programs and the government bureaucracy that was created quite clearly violate the First Amendment. This is government endorsed religion, pure and simple.

Funny...the Southern Baptist Convention strongly supported the separation of church and State until the 1980s. And ever since, they've been trying to shove their brand of Christianity down everyone else's throats.

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked. At all. Period.

[scott4261]

And to all the wing-nuts on this blog: Just because I argue for the separation of church and State does not mean that I'm agnostic or atheist (not that there is anything wrong with that, but I'm not). I am Episcopalian by tradition of faith. And I believe that government and religion are each best served without influencing the other. Each person here has the right to believe or not to believe as he or she sees fit. In my opinion, to see it any other way is, well, un-American!

[dawnking2]

Scott, if more Christians were like you, people like me wouldn't be afraid of them!

[kaliveotin]

Maybe we should promote religion in government. We could be more like Iran, Israel, Pakisthan,
Iraq or India. These are nations we should want to emmulate.

[randalds]

Government and religion are not supposed to be linked. At all. Period.
Posted by Scott4261 at 10:28 PM : Feb 24, 2007

Amen.

[markster6]

Faith based programs sponsored and/or funded by the government violates the First Amendment, just as teaching creationism in public schools does. Hopefully, the justices will recognize the programs for what they are. The challenges we see recently to the First Amendment are indeed troublesome.
With that in mind, the institutions of religion and religious customs should be respected as provided in the First Amendment. Personally, I see the openness and welcoming nature of societies created by Christians. The world sees America as "the land of opportunity" because Christians created that environment. Yet, ironically I see increasingly virulent attacks against Christian philosophy.

[matter77]

Atheism is a white religion.

[kevboom]

"You can't simply object because your portion of your tax dollars is going to something you really don't like."

But that's not really the point, is it? Funding Islamic charities or Catholic charities or Baptist charities, all opens the door to our government sticking their noses into houses of worship and having a stake in how we worship, who/what we worship, and when/where. This is a slippery slope our founders realized coming from nations where they were persecuted and run out for their beliefs. Keep church and state separated at all costs, lest we have self-righteous, bound-for-hell bigots like Pat Falwell telling us how to think. No thanks. Maybe if the government would invest our tax money in education for once, instead of funneling money to religious interests for votes, we wouldn't have so many clueless drones arguing against the separation of church and state. Let's see, whose thinking on this matter should we trust... Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and Franklin, or George Bush? 230 years of near-perfect government brought down by one idiot from Texas? I don't think so. To hell with Bush and faith-based initiatives, tax plundering ploy of the religious right.

[dawnking2]

Well, matter77, I'm truly enlightened by your statement. I didn't realize atheism was a religion, or even attributed to a particular skin color. Does your church preach this message or did you come up with this baloney on your own?

[kevboom]

Make that Pat Robertson. The name is so scary, I have trouble getting my fingers to type it. :-)

[jdweymouth]

Re: "Afraid of them"? -Posted by DawnKing2

What is your problem? What have we ever done to you? Do we fly planes into buildings? Do we blow things up? No, we don't. There are outspoken people like Pat Robertson, but so are there people like Cindy Sheehan, Jane Fonda, and Annie Laurie Gaylor. Do you give these people hard times? Anyway, though Robertson is outspoken, what has he done to you? We preach that if you DON'T confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, you will go to hell. If you sincerely believe, you will be saved, and you don't have to do anything after that. Islam teaches martyrdom, and the moderates aren't true Moslems because the Koran warns against moderates.

I ask you these questions, but they are rhetorical because I know the answers. You can't effectively argue against Christianity, because it teaches peace, and love. You are sorry Moslem apologists that are under conviction. Christians take your hatred of us as the greatest evidence of the truth of Christianity. The Bible teaches that the world hates God, and His Son, and your hatred of us proves it. But that's all right, we will simply pray for you, unlike our Moslem counterparts who would kill you.

[oleander8]

It amazes me that people in this country who think Christianity has a place in our government don't have a clue that this is exactly what the Taliban is, and what the fundamentalist radical Muslims think about their governments and their religion. Christians think they are "different"...that Christianity is the "true" religion. They aren't different at all - and their thinking is as destructive as all the others.

[dawnking2]

kevboom, I totally agree. Good post. Pat Falwell, Jerry Robertson - they're all the same and their names are interchangeable.

[matter77]

This has nothing to do with Bush and this woman is just trying to capitalize on discord over the war in Iraq. Atheism is the new ultra-white religion. It has nothing to do with teaching creationism. They hate all these programs to help the disadvantaged. What makes atheism a religion DawnKing2?? - they worship themselves, just like you.

[matter77]

The first thing mega-tyrants always did when they came to power was destroy the Church. Atheists love to talk about the crusades, but hundreds of millions of people have been put to death by Atheists and you're either too stupid to see it, or you're part of it. The only thing keeping a lot of poor countries and the starving people are the NGOs, which you also want to destroy so they can't help people in Haiti, etc.

[randalds]

Atheism is not a religion, it's the denial of one. It's not devil worship or anti-christian or anything like that. It's a catch all word for people (like myself) who don't believe in a Creator or god. Other then that we have little or nothing in common. There is not a creed or manifesto or church or clubhouse or organization or set of beliefs for atheists. The only problem atheists have is that people who do follow a religion seem to be incapable of understanding people who don't, so they tend to lump us all in together as anti-religion when we are not. In fact there is no "we" in atheism and I wish someone would come up with a different word because the only real correct label for atheists is no label at all. We don't worship anything or anyone.

[jdweymouth]

RandalDS: Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God. There is no evidence to either prove or disprove the existence of God, so it is all faith. Christians don't deny it, you do. You are a hypocrite in denial. You believe that there is no God/gods/god, you therefore a religious person. Theism, atheism... Notice the %u201Cisms%u201D, what does that tell you?

[johnshaft4]

"I don't care if it rains or freezes
'Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
Through my trials and tribulations
And my travels through the nations
With my plastic Jesus I'll go far

Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes
Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
I could go a hundred miles per hour
Long as I got the almighty power

Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus
Riding on the dahboard of my car
His halo fits just right
And I will use it as a sight
And they'll scatter or they'll splatter near and far...

[scott4261]

I find your observation interesting, Randal, because in my community (you know, the gay one), when people find out I'm a Christian, they expect for me to turn into a fundamentalist like siginrick who wants to beat them over the head with his Bible at every opportunity. That's certainly not me. I was raised to respect the differences in others. And since I discovered my own little difference more than 30 years ago (I'm 45 now), I've tried to be open-minded, tolerant and accepting.

But we Episcopalians in general are not about proselytizing anyway. For most of us, religion is very personal and we try to actually follow Christ's tenets: you know "do unto others," "love your neighbor as yourself," things like that. I personally get a lot of growth helping charities which help the poor. See, I thought that's what I was supposed to be doing.

And you know what? I have a few agnostics and a few atheists in my circle of friends, as well as people from faiths other than Christianity. I cherish each one of my friends, because they all are individuals who have contributed a unique gift to my life just by being a part of it.

Thanks for letting me share that and I hope that you and other atheists and agnostics understand that not not all Christians are of the fundamentalist variety. Some of us are even unrepentant, unapologetic, bleeding-heart liberals. And not all of us are straight, either.

[randalds]

RandalDS: Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God. There is no evidence to either prove or disprove the existence of God, so it is all faith. Christians don't deny it, you do. You are a hypocrite in denial. You believe that there is no God/gods/god, you therefore a religious person. Theism, atheism... Notice the %u201Cisms%u201D, what does that tell you?
Posted by jdweymouth at 01:27 AM : Feb 25, 2007

Well (and no offense) but you're just plain wrong. Atheism is not an alternative form of religion. It's a lack of belief, not a belief in there being no god. That's one of the hardest things to get through to people who do believe in religion. They see all people as believing in something, even if it's a "belief" in no god, but it's not like that at all. Deciding that there was no god in spite of my upbringing was one the most freeing moments of my life. Once it sank in I realized how silly the whole religion/no religion thing was. It's all a joke and has no more relevance in my life the Druids or followers of Odin. It really is that simple. It just doesn't apply.