Get The Troops Out Of Iraq, And Fast

The Nation: U.S. Presence In Iraq Only Begets Us More Enemies

(The Nation)  This column is an editorial that appears in The Nation

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With Iraq descending ever further into chaos and civil war, the first order of business of the new Democratic Congress when it convenes in January must be to pass a resolution establishing a clear and expeditious timeline for the withdrawal of U.S. forces. Such a resolution would not only reflect the will of the American people; it would offer the only reasonable course of action. The inescapable truth is that the Bush Administration — first with its illegal and unjustified invasion and then with its divide-and-rule occupation — has produced in Iraq a strategic and human catastrophe of untold proportions. There is nothing we can responsibly do except withdraw U.S. troops and work with other nations to keep the civil war and chaos from spreading to neighboring countries while providing humanitarian relief to Iraq's victims.

Some members of Congress, however — including some in the Democratic Party —continue to resist setting a clear timetable for withdrawal. Others say they prefer to wait and see the recommendations of the Baker-Hamilton Iraq Study Group (ISG), which according to preliminary reports will offer a range of familiar policy ideas for stabilizing Iraq, including reining in the militias, training more Iraqi troops and pressuring the Shiite-dominated government to include more Sunnis.

Yet the monstrous events of November put an end to the illusion that U.S. forces can somehow stabilize Iraq before they leave. The bloody civil war, brutal revenge killings and escalating sectarian violence claimed more than 200 Iraqi lives over the Thanksgiving weekend alone, promising to make November an even deadlier month than October, which according to a United Nations report saw 3,709 Iraqi civilians killed. The 140,000 American troops in Iraq were unable to prevent this violence, just as they have been unable to stop the ethnic cleansing that has taken place over the past year. According to the UN, 365,000 Iraqis have fled their homes and communities since the bombing of the mosque in Samarra in February, and more than 50,000 are fleeing their homes every month.

These statistics do not fully capture the gruesome horror that much of Iraq has become. Nor do they capture how helpless U.S. forces are to establish security. As journalist Nir Rosen reported earlier this year, "The Americans are just one more militia lost in the anarchy." Indeed, the Iraqi government has no authority outside the Green Zone, nor any control over the proliferating Shiite and Sunni militias.

The notion that the Iraq Study Group can offer new ideas for stabilizing Iraq is just the latest imperial illusion preventing Washington from facing reality. If it is honest, the Baker-Hamilton commission will acknowledge that the only feasible option for America is to leave — as quickly as possible.

The recommendations that the ISG is reportedly considering have all been attempted, without success, in one guise or another over the past two years. The Administration has tried training the Iraqi army and police and has only empowered and supplied more militias, who have used the police and now the army as cover for their death squads. It has pushed the Maliki government to dismantle the Shiite militias, only to be told that both the Mahdi Army and the Badr Organization are either off-limits because they're aligned with the government or beyond its control.

[macusweil]

No matter how you slice it the war reflects grave incompetence and failure of leadership by the Bush administration.

Any president who takes the country to war without 100% confidence in the correctness of their justification should be held accountable to the highest degree possible.

Further the President must employee the only the best and brightest resources to insure the best possible outcome. Anything less should be punishable by impeachment and/or prision. There is absolutely no room for loyalty appointments for cronies and profiteering as has taken place with this Iraq disaster.

[bluestardad]

Thank you The Nation, It is about time some media started telling it like it is.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[observantx]

Here's the lead to the column of the executive editor of Roll Call, the Capital Hill newspaper, Morton Kondracke.
%u201CAll over the world, scoundrels are ascendant, rising on a tide of American weakness. It makes for a perilous future.
President Bush bet his presidency %u2014 and America%u2019s world leadership %u2014 on the war in Iraq. Tragically, it looks as though he bit off more than the American people were willing to chew.
The U.S. is failing in Iraq. Bush%u2019s policy was repudiated by the American people in the last election. And now America%u2019s enemies and rivals are pressing their advantage, including Iran, Syria, the Taliban, Sudan, Russia and Venezuela. We have yet to hear from al-Qaida.%u201D

This is total b*llsh*t. This idiot blames the massive bloody failure in Iraq on you and me instead of Fearless Leader. Boy George is the one who lied, cooked intel, failed to secure the country after his Mission Accomplished photo op, and blundered away the lives of our sons and daughters.
The American people did not bite off anything; that was done by Fearless Leader. I hope the taste of failure is making him gag. Mort and the rest of boy George%u2019s apologists should just admit that he screwed it up and that it is ALL HIS FAULT! They cannot shift the blame to the people who have been questioning the reasons for and the wisdom of being there in the first place. This is a d@mmed lie and should not be tolerated. Shame on you Mr. Kondrake for this slander.

[feelfree1]

Let's not forget that the fascists that have taken control of the Republican Party could not have been nearly as successful with their "War on Freedom", without the complicity of their Democrat Party sympathizers.

Now, the "leadership" of both "major" parties is attempting to blame the failure of criminally inept U.S. policy in Iraq, on the Iraqis, and on their puppet-government. Disgusting.

We need to withdrawal our troops form Iraq, IMMEDIATELY, apologize for our disgraceful behavior there, and develop a reparations fund.

I would like to suggest that we liquidate the assets of war-profiteering corporations like Bechtel, Halliburton, Exxon-Mobile, Blackwater, Lockheed Martin, Chevron-Texaco, General Electric, etc, etc, and use the proceeds to create a reparations fund for the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, and for our abused U.S. soldiers.

These funds could also be used to publicly fund fresh U.S. elections, and to pay for war-crimes proceedings against the Bush Regime and their collaborators/enablers.

[dogsoul]

This Liberal policy of appeasement toward the enemies of the United States is shameful - not to mention it doesn't work. Were we in Iraq or Afghanistan when 9/11 occurred? Did Al Queda or anyone else need the excuse of Iraq back then to become our enemies? Liberals have joined forces with Al Queda & other Islamic Radicals in an ongoing effort to demoralize the American people against this mission in Iraq. Liberals want to defeat Bush, so does Islamic Radicalism - and they're both waging a war on America in order to defeat their common enemy. I don't know if it's more accurate to call you cowards, traitors or French... you digust me.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[aeasus]

SO,does this mean we are going to finish in Afghanistan now? Provide the troops that are needed to leave the way they should leave? OR Have we learned nothing?

[marcodele]

Dogsoul: What disgusts me is people like Bush and you who have no problem with other people dying in a horrific civil war in another country, yet you would never serve yourself. If you think anyone who disagrees with Bush is a liberal terrorist supporter, then there are quite a few republicans that fit that profile too. Its called Democracy: there is room for opposing views. You are at the polarized right of logic where anything or anyone who disagrees with Bush or Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter is a terrorist sympathizer. Get real.

[rafterman1]

Appeasement? The people of the ME want us out of their countries and their affairs and if we do that - if we leave THEIR countries - we are appeasing them? It's conservative policies like this that put America in danger.

You know, you can fantasize all you want about how the US can act with imunity anywhere we want and the peoples in those countries are just going to bend over and say "thank you sir, may I have another". But the REALITY is, the longer we stay, the more of them will get pi$$ed at us and the more longer pi$$ed off they will stay. This isn't the old days, where colonial powers could come in and set up shop and no one resisted. These days, these countries fight - with everything they got, including terrorism. We can't continue to act like it's the colonialism of the 19th century.

If there was a major strategic objective that was vital to the interests of the US, that would be one thing. Sometimes sacrifice if necessary, even if it doesn't look like you may win. But staying in Iraq? For what? All we are doing in worstening the strategic situation by staying, not making it better. But because the hawks can't swallow their pride and admit a mistake, their hubris is going to lead us down a long, dark path for years to come.

[marcodele]

"Liberals have joined forces with Al Queda & other Islamic Radicals in an ongoing effort to demoralize the American people against this mission in Iraq."

The mission in Iraq was to find weapons of mass destruction and remove Saddam Hussein from power.
There were no WMD's and Saddam is out. Mission accomplished.

There's big difference between being a global citizen and a global bully. The "shock and awe" mentality is over: it ended on Nov. 7th, 2006.

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

The people of Iraq have every right to defend themselves against the brutal and illegal invasion of their country.

Fomenting blind hatred and fear will not mittigate the failure and disgrace which has been foisted upon us by U.S. fascistic extremists.

The whole planet will rejoice when the U.S. criminals responsible for this catastrophe are finally brought to justice.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[cathaleen]

The reason we need a timeline is so that the politicians cannot back out on their word to withdraw. What we have in this country is a bunch of congressman and senators that tend to go with the flow or whoever is paying them or flying them around.
Also, this will give the Iraqi's a chance to get their act together. If they know we'll be leaving, maybe they will finally take responsiblity for themselves and start acting like one country instead of three different ones.

[random_radar]

If Iraq invaded and occupied the United States, I would gladly fight to repel the invasion. I would consider it a duty and honor to kill the foreign soldiers, and I would bet that my fellow Americans would consider me a hero for it, too.

Would you like to disagree with me? Who would say that if America were invaded and occupied by a foreign power (or Nato or the United Nations), we should stand for it? What argument would someone like to pose to say that we should submit to military occupation and dictatorship?

But if we would not tolerate be subjected to the kind of treatment our government is handing out to Iraqis, why do we think Iraqis should not only accept it, but be grateful for it? Why are we so surprised that no one likes being killed if they don't do what we want?

[notblue]

FeelFree1, the fascists in this country preside on the left. America was attacked for years by the Islamic extremests long before going into Iraq. If we were to adopt your philosophy of retreat and hope for the best, what makes you think they would now leave us alone and stop there Jihad against the west? I think we all know the answer to that question. It would be naive and selfdestructive to think retreat from this world conflict would enhance Americas security. It's time to smell the coffee and see this conflict for what is.

[feelfree1]

cathaleen,

Re: "What we have in this country is a bunch of congressman and senators that tend to go with the flow or whoever is paying them or flying them around."

Agreed. This has to stop.

[random_radar]

notblue,

More Americans have died in the Iraq war than died in the 9/11 attack. People make hypothetical claims that fighting in Iraq somehow prevented terrorist attacks in America. But if anything, the Iraq war should motivate terrorist attacks and that has not happened due to domestic security (which has been 100% effective independent of, or perhaps inspite of, the foreign war).

If we really want to honestly wake up and smell the coffee, we would admit that our own government is directly causing more deaths than the terrorists. I oppose the war in Iraq because I am tired of seeing loyal, patriotic soldiers give their lives in a useless war.

What good is a war on terror that causes more deaths than the terrorists? The cure is worse than the disease. Domestic security is working fine. The Iraq war has no effect on our safety. End the war and worry about securing our borders.

[tejasdemo]

This article is exactly right !!!!

Get out now and fast. Bush and his ridiculously stupid and I mean stupid ideas have been proven as some of the dumbest ideas ever to hit the planet !

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[feelfree1]

notblue,

Re: "the fascists in this country preside on the left"

"On the left" of what?

Is the 'merger of the Corporation and the State' a required element of fascism?

The illegal U.S. war of aggression against Iraq will be remembered as one of the biggest military and moral defeats in all of "American" history.

Choose the size of your humiliation?

You have selected, SUPPERSIZE!

You are free to cower in your corner, eagerly sacrificing the blood and treasure of others to appease your delusions.

I will not surrender to fear, in exchange for a false sense of security, and I will not allow the U.S. to be overrun by fools and fascists, such as the members and supporters of the "Project for a New American Century", the "Heritage Foundation", and the "American Enterprise Institute".

Members and supporters/appeasers of these groups, represent the greatest terrorist threat to the people of the U.S., and to the planet- by far.

They will be held to account for their deeds.

[changeit4]

Isn't this past stupidity now? We know Dubya ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, but insanity is trying the same thing expecting different results. This operation was a valiant effort (albeit arrogant and self-serving to those in the Capitol), but there are no winners in this debacle. It's time to go home.

Insane and stupid, powerful and imperialistic: a recipe for disaster. The historical company George W. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld et al will have at the end of this mess is infamous!

[dogsoul]

The war in Iraq is part of a long-term strategy to reshape the landscape of the middle east from a region ruled by psychotic despots, terror organizations, and the like to one ruled by Democratic influences - think Turkey, think Japan, think Germany. THAT is poison for terror organizations and regimes that sponsor them. If we could be certain that 9/11 was a one-time event, then your observations about more deaths in Iraq would be valid - but that's the point, unless you think some minor reaction like lobbing a couple cruise missiles in the general direction of terrorists who attack us is an effective long-term counter measure - fine, let's try it.... oh wait, we did try that. Unless you're happy to experience an occassional 9/11 here & there, or worse, ad infinitum - go ahead, cut & run, try to appease them... see where it gets you. You, Al Queda, and your mass media may well succeed in demoralizing America to defeat Bush - but you and unfortunately everyone else will reap the rewards in the future.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[dogsoul]

As to the whole, they're just fighting an occupation force that invaded their country... are you forgetting how many Iraqi citizens not only joined our effort, cut celebrated in the streets when Saddam was toppled? Are you forgetting how people, much like yourself I'd imagine accussed the U.S. of "abandoning" the Iraqi people back in Desert Storm when we did NOT proceed with removing Saddam? You are not siding with the Iraqi people that want a free Democratic stable country - You are siding with the Islamic radicals that want to establish a government much like Iran's.... shame on you.

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

Re: "The war in Iraq is part of a long-term strategy to reshape the landscape of the middle east from a region ruled by psychotic despots, terror organizations, and the like to one ruled by Democratic influences..."

Sounds like the same flavor of tripe, regularly churned out by the likes of William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Richard Perle, David Frum, and the rest of the PNAC apologists.

Three key problems with their collective strategy:

1) The use of terrorism is never an effective way to fight terrorism.

2) If we surrender our hard fought Constitutional rights, out of blind fear, what exactly are we defending?

3) Their plans been demonstrated beyond doubt, to be an abject failure; tactically, strategically, and morally.

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

Re: "are you forgetting how many Iraqi citizens not only joined our effort, cut celebrated in the streets when Saddam was toppled?"

No, I have not. This a prime example of the U.S. pro-war, staged propaganda machine in action.

There were hardly any "Iraqis celebrating" at the Saddam statue site. At least ABC had the courage to report this on ABC Nightline.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/1598451_comment.php

The Jessica Lynch "rescue" is an even more aggregious compilation of Western media fables, in my opinion.

Please do some reading. You've been duped.

[tejasdemo]

The only way to solve the terroism thing and make it go away is resolve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

And, the only way to solve that is to give the Palestinians back the land that they feel was taken from them. Period.

I have never understood the big deal anyway. God is supposed to be in our hearts and our actions not just some piece of land. So, why all the killing in the name of a peaceful God just doesnt make any sense to me.

Anyway, what do I know anyway, right ?

[marcodele]

If you don't agree with Dogsoul, Rush Limbaugh, and Anne Coulter, then you are a terrorist. Its that simple. And so is Dogsoul.

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

The idea that we "would be greeted as liberators" was yet another false claim foisted upon us by the PNAC extremists, using their faith-based, Chalabi-supplied intelligence.

We are not welcome in Iraq. We never were, (except maybe by the Kurds), and the Iraqi people have every right to defend themselves against the brutal and illegal invasion of their country.

On Tuesday in Iraq, U.S. soldiers fired on a house, using tanks and machine guns, resulting in the deaths of 5 little girls.

Our disgrace is only deepening in Iraq. We were defeated there a long time ago. Most people are just now realizing that. You do not appear to be among them.

[feelfree1]

tejasdemo,

Good points!

[notblue]

FeelFree1, "left" is a political term referring to your extreme ideology. Summing up your logic the U.S. is bad, the extremists cause is righteous. I am not a coward and would proudly fight if allowed.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[szelag19]

The "Iraq War" has ceased to be a war....it is now the occupation of Iraq by U.S.troops..who have ceased fighting...who are now just being mamed and killed. This is justification for a withdrawal of these troops. THE IRAQUI PEOPLE DO NOT WANT US THERE.WE ARE NOT SERVING A PUPOSE THERE. The people of America were lied to about the reason for this war right from the very beginning. There is an outcry in th U.S...as witnessed in the last elections..where we are tired and heartsick of hearing about these kids getting killed every day. The Democrats better remember that this is one of the biggest reasons the last vote went the way it did. Of course the Pentagon and all their fat assed Generals don't want to withdraw...they can sit in the comfy chairs far away from the fray and play war..which they haven't had a chance to do since Vietnam and Desert Storm..2 more fiasco's where lives were lost at the hands of these arm chair warriors..exactly what does it take for these politicians to get the message that the American people want our kids home??

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

Re: "I am not a coward and would proudly fight if allowed."

Why aren't you allowed? Are there any men with white uniforms standing around you? If not, I can put you in touch with the folks at Blackwater and Wackenhtut, if you are truly interested in 'joining the fight'. They can help you to wrap yourself in the flag, while making the "big bucks".

Re: "If we could be certain that 9/11 was a one-time event, then your observations about more deaths in Iraq would be valid"

We can't be certain of that. I think that Cheney would do virtually anything to stay in power.

[feelfree1]

notblue,

Re: "Summing up your logic the U.S. is bad, the extremists cause is righteous."

You got most of the words right, but the order is wrong. Let me help you:

"Summing up (my) logic, the U.S. extemists' "righteous" cause, is bad.

[dogsoul]

Wow - why don't you cowardly liberals just don some black turbins & start shouting Allah Akbar! War is hell, and despite our efforts to restrict casualties to non-civilians - that is going to happen, particularly since the Islamic Radicals you support use them as human shields without so much as an after-thought...

When even a slightest glimpse of anything positive happens to slide past the liberal media & make its way on screen... you think it's some conspiracy & propoganda ploy - pathetic... absolutely shameful that we have to fight these enemies from within our own country.

I recall back when that massive terror plot on U.S. soil was thwarted - I actually sensed REAL DISSAPPOINTMENT from Liberals, they were genuinely upset that a successful counter-terror measure had occurred under Bush's watch... They couldn't even see past their own partisan fog enough to be happy that we foiled the attack - THAT'S the American Liberal for ya, and I use the term American loosely.... cowards, traitors.

[feelfree1]

notblue,

Re: ""left" is a political term referring to your extreme ideology."

The concepts of decency, the rule of law, and accountablility, are hardly extreme views. They only seem that way to extremists.

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the (Nazi) Nuremberg trials

[feelfree1]

Dogsoul,

Re: "War is hell, and despite our efforts to restrict casualties to non-civilians..."

655,000 excess violent Iraqi deaths so far, by the best available estimate, as a result of the brutal and illegal U.S. war of aggression against the people of Iraq. Millions more Have been humiliated, wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, and sexually abused.

Nice going.

You must be very proud.

[feelfree1]

Re: "The Administration has tried training the Iraqi army and police and has only empowered and supplied more militias, who have used the police and now the army as cover for their death squads."

I think that we can thank John Negroponte and Ahmad Chalabi for this accomplishment.

[marcodele]

So if a soldier in Iraq is a liberal democrat, he's a coward and a traitor? Oh my, we are so full of our Limbaugh selves, aren't we?

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to World War II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. To a hypothetical, I can answer, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country that can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front being a big one. Now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?...I'm waiting.

[dogsoul]

...well FeelFree, you could have posted that Nazi quote in relation to ANY war - even the one that toppled the Nazi's themselves and landed Goering on trial. My guess is that you liberals would have used these very same tactics during WWII - that of appeasement, cowardice, and treason... I thought Bin Laden & friends had greatly underestimated American Courage & Resolve when they attacked us - but now I see how right they were about certain people unworthy to call themselves American - Liberals.

655,000 civilian Iraqi deaths so far eh??? Well there ya have it folks... THIS is the kind of information your side buys into... "Millions more Have been humiliated, wrongfully imprisoned, tortured, and sexually abused" - Geee, compared to the good ol' days under Saddam & Sons...

[dogsoul]

...and this *** can BushRocks has set up this spamming device that's all OVER the internet - so sick of it...

But I suppose you liberals got tin foil wrapped around your head & probably think it's some Bush Administration conspiracy to throw out more propoganda....

[feelfree1]

dogsoul,

Re: "Geee, compared to the good ol' days under Saddam & Sons..."

The scope and the rate of the death/misery toll inflicted against the people of Iraq over the last few years, by the Bush League, has now exceeded the misery toll which took the Saddam regime decades to accumulate.

The Bush-puppet Fuhrer will be remembered as the true "Butcher of Baghdad".

You will be remembered as someone who supported him.

[mrthornman]

dogsoul:

Even many of the neocons that orginally supported Iraq are now publicly stating that we need to get out. Are they liberals?

Is that how you see the world? Anyone that does not agree with your point of view is a liberal? Bush only has about 30% approval at this point. So, that means that 70% of those polled are liberal?

[fascistusa]

Hey hey hey.

Let's not go there.

The FASCISTS in our Country are truly nice people.

They are.

Just don't give them anything sharp.

And please, keep back 10 feet at all times. The last time a FASCIST got too close to a NON-Fascist... he bit off a piece of their face. Oh, wait. That was Hannibal Lector. SO hard to tell Fascists from homical maniacs...

[fascistusa]

as for the PROPOGANDA...

It works. It works so well.

The "news" says that anyone not agreeing with the "news" or not believing the "news" is crazy.

What do the Sheeple say?

You don't believe the "news"?? You are crazy!!

I've got Orson Wells rising up from the grave to repeat the War of The Worlds. Those silly people thought aliens were invading the Earth!! You people are so much smarter. They'd NEVER fool YOU into thinking something UNTRUE is TRUE.

Dammit..better invade Iraq...they got them there Weapons O' Mass Destruction!

[tibu987]

This is worthy of some serious thought. Almost 3,000 young Americans killed, almost 30,000 injured, estimates that over 200,000 Iraqis have died, 300 billion dollars spent and counting, many Iraqi homes destroyed, their infrastructure almost all gone, many of the Iraqi's killed were not soldiers or insurgents but innocent people, many of whom were women and children. Even a high school kid can figure this out and that it is not worth continuing. In the annals of history, this will go down as the biggest and most tragic, and most preventable war of all time. We just had a young man from a suburb of Chicago, Brian Anderson, come home with only one arm left, he lost his two legs and other arm in Iraq.
I am ashamed of the actions of the U.S. government.
Enough, get out now.