BAGHDAD, Nov. 24, 2006

Iraqis Burned Alive In Revenge Attacks

Mosques And Homes Burned, Unknown Number Killed Following Massive Attack On Shiite Slum

  • Play CBS Video Video Iraq: 5 Sunni Mosques Burned

    Shiite gunmen apparently burned down five Sunni mosques killing 31 people despite an indefinite curfew in Baghdad today. Elizabeth Palmer reports that high-level talks may avert a civil war.

  • Video Funerals Fill Baghdad Streets

    November has become the deadliest month for Iraqi civilians, as the death toll from sectarian violence keeps climbing. Susan Roberts reports.

  • Video Deadly Day For Iraqi Civilians

    In northern Iraq, a car bombing killed at least 22 people after more than 200 died in the bloodiest attack since the war began. As Elizabeth Palmer reports, the country is in shock.

    • A relative reacts while taking part in a funeral procession for a victim of the previous day's attacks, in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006. Photo

      A relative reacts while taking part in a funeral procession for a victim of the previous day's attacks, in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006.  (AP Photo/Karim Kadim)

    • Iraqis inspect the wreckage of the previous day's car bombing in  Baghdad's impoverished district of Sadr City, Nov, 24, 2006. Photo

      Iraqis inspect the wreckage of the previous day's car bombing in Baghdad's impoverished district of Sadr City, Nov, 24, 2006.  (Getty Images/Ahmad Al-Rubaye)

    • Women cry as friends and relatives take part in the funeral procession of the victims of previous day's bombing in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006. Photo

      Women cry as friends and relatives take part in the funeral procession of the victims of previous day's bombing in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006.  (AP Photo/Karim Kadim)

    • Friends and relatives take part in the funeral procession of the victims of previous day's attacks in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006. Photo

      Friends and relatives take part in the funeral procession of the victims of previous day's attacks in Sadr City district of Baghdad, Iraq, Friday, Nov. 24, 2006.  (AP Photo/Karim Kadim)

    • An Iraqi mourns over the coffin of a relative outside the morgue of a hospital in Baghdad, Nov. 23, 2006. U.S. forces killed four Iraqis and wounded eight more Thursday after a raid in Sadr City. Photo

      An Iraqi mourns over the coffin of a relative outside the morgue of a hospital in Baghdad, Nov. 23, 2006. U.S. forces killed four Iraqis and wounded eight more Thursday after a raid in Sadr City.  (AFP/Getty Images)

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  • Interactive Battle For Iraq

    The government, the insurgency, key players, background and photos.

  • Who's Who Iraq Insurgency

    More on the militant groups behind the insurgency in Iraq and their motivations.

  • Interactive Attacks Map

    Details on the insurgency and terrorism that has continued to take lives since the fall of Saddam.

(CBS/AP)  Revenge-seeking militiamen seized six Sunnis as they left Friday prayers and burned them alive with kerosene in a savage new twist to the brutality shaking the Iraqi capital a day after suspected Sunni insurgents killed 215 people in Baghdad's main Shiite district.

Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in Friday's assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed at least 19 other Sunnis, including women and children, in the same neighborhood, the volatile Hurriyah district in northwest Baghdad, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.

Last night, Iraqi politicians representing all ethnic groups called for restraint, and unity, but today, the man whose word could do more than any other to to prevent reprisal killings didn't deliver, reports CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer.

At Friday prayers Mosqtada al Sadr did not forbid his followers to take revenge. Instead he made a series of hard-line demands including that:

  • A fatwa — a religious edict — be issued requiring Sunnis to stop attacking Shiites

  • A firm timetable be set for the withdrawal of U.S. forces

  • That Sunnis pay for the rebuilding of bombed Shiite shrines

  • That Sunni leaders break all ties with al Qaeda

    Most of the thousands of dead bodies that have been found dumped across Baghdad and other cities in central Iraq in recent months have been of victims who were tortured and then shot to death, according to police. The suspected militia killers often have used electric drills on their captives' bodies before killing them. The bodies are frequently decapitated.

    But burning victims alive introduced a new method of brutality that was likely to be reciprocated by the other sect as the Shiites and Sunnis continue killing one another in unprecedented numbers. The gruesome attack, which came despite a curfew in Baghdad, capped a day in which at least 87 people were killed or found dead in sectarian violence across Iraq.

    In Hurriyah, the rampaging militiamen also burned and blew up four mosques and torched several homes in the district, Hussein said.

    Residents of the troubled district claim the Mahdi Army has begun kidnapping and holding Sunni hostages to use in ritual slaughter at the funerals of Shiite victims of Baghdad's raging sectarian war.

    Such claims cannot be verified but speak to the deep fear that grips Baghdad, where retaliation has become a part of daily life.

    President Jalal Talabani emerged from lengthy meetings with other Iraqi leaders late Friday and said the defense minister, Abdul-Qader al-Obaidi, indicated that the Hurriyah neighborhood had been quiet throughout the day.

    But Imad al-Hasimi, a Sunni elder in Hurriyah, confirmed Hussein's account of the immolations. He told Al-Arabiya television he saw people who were drenched in kerosene and then set afire, burning to death before his eyes.

    Two workers at Kazamiyah Hospital also confirmed that bodies from the clashes and immolation had been taken to the morgue at their facility. They refused to be identified by name, saying they feared retribution.

    And the Association of Muslim Scholars, the most influential Sunni organization in Iraq, said even more victims were burned to death in attacks on the four mosques. It claimed a total of 18 people had died in an inferno at the al-Muhaimin mosque.

    The extreme violence continued to tear at the Iraq's social fabric even after the government had banned pedestrians and cars from the streets and closed the international airport until further notice in anticipation of a storm of retaliation for the five bombings and two mortar rounds which killed 215 in Sadr City on Thursday.

    The airport closure forced Talabani to delay his planned Saturday departure for Tehran for meetings with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Iranian leader also invited Syrian President Bashar Assad, but it now appeared he would not attend.

    The chaos also cast a shadow over the Amman, Jordan, summit next week between Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and President Bush.

    Politicians loyal to radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr threatened to boycott parliament and the Cabinet if al-Maliki went ahead with the meeting. The political bloc, known as Sadrists, is a mainstay of support for al-Maliki. The Mahdi Army is the organization's armed wing.

    Sadrist lawmaker Qusai Abdul-Wahab blamed U.S. forces for Thursday's attack in Sadr City because they failed to provide security.

    “We say occupation forces are fully responsible for these acts, and we call for the withdrawal of occupation forces or setting a timetable for their withdrawal,” Abdul-Wahab said.

    A U.S. helicopter patrolling above Sadr City came under intense fire from the ground and shot back, wounding two people Friday night, according to police 1st. Lt. Qassim Mohammed and witnesses.

    The U.S. military said the helicopter had taken fire from six rockets launched from one site and destroyed the launcher. The military statement did not address whether there were casualties.

    White House spokesman Scott Stanzil said there was no change in the president's plans to meet with al-Maliki on Wednesday and Thursday.

    Al-Maliki is increasingly at odds with the Bush administration for his refusal to disband militias and associated deaths squads that are believed responsible for killing thousands of Sunnis since an al Qaeda attack last February blew up the Golden Dome Shiite shrine in Samarra, north of Baghdad.

    Mortar fire rained down again on Sunni Islam's holiest shrine in Baghdad, the Abu Hanifa mosque in the Azamiyah neighborhood, wounding at least five people. Several mortars crashed into the area Thursday night within hours of the attacks in Sadr City, one of them puncturing the dome of the shrine and damaging the interior, including its library.

    Also, militia gunmen raided a Sunni mosque in the Amil section of west Baghdad, killing two guards, according to police 1st Lt. Maitham Abdul-Razaq.

    And in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, Sunni insurgents blew up the dome of the important Shiite mosque of leading cleric Abdul-Karm al-Madani.

    In the northern Iraqi city of Tal Afar, 23 people were killed and 43 wounded when explosives hidden in a parked car and in a suicide belt worn by a pedestrian detonated simultaneously outside a car dealership, said police Brig. Khalaf al-Jubouri.

    Altogether, 56 people were killed across in Iraq on Friday, and police said they found 31 bodies dumped throughout Baghdad, most of them tortured before being shot.

    In Sadr City, cleanup crews continued removing remains of the dead from wreckage of the car bombs, and tents were erected throughout the ramshackle district for relatives to receive condolences.

    Hundreds of men, women and children beat their chests, chanted and cried as they walked beside vehicles carrying the caskets of their loved ones toward the holy Shiite city of Najaf for burial. Despite Baghdad's curfew, al-Maliki, himself a Shiite, ordered police to guard the processions.

    As the funeral processions reached the edge of Sadr City in northeastern Baghdad, the cars and minivans left most of the mourners behind and began the 100-mile drive south to Najaf, a treacherous journey that passes through many checkpoints and areas controlled by Sunni militants in Iraq's so-called “Triangle of Death.”

    ©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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    Add a Comment See all 128 Comments
    by radiob-2009 November 23, 2006 10:48 AM PST
    Iraq on the day of our thansgiving is spiralling out of control.Over 200 years ago we came together with the native Americans and pledged peace.It was a historic moment,albeit not a reality as towards our future with the native Americans.Iraq needs a national reconillation that is lasting and meaningfull.Who actually fire the rockets is unknown although the Sunnis were automatically blamed.It is time for Iraqis to come together as one country.How many innocent children,women and men lost their lives today and for what?Division amongst Iraqis will not end their bloodshed.Common ground must be found.It is time for Iraqis to lay down their weapons,abandon their theological differences and unite as one country.We cannot do this for them,it has to come from within.When will all Iraqis realize that the bloodshed has gone to far and is breaking their country in to pieces.
    Reply to this comment
    by antoniof123 November 23, 2006 11:17 AM PST
    What a shame and how sad but I fear it is too late now. This country made a mess and we can not clean it up. I hope this time we learn and never let anyone lie to us again.
    Reply to this comment
    by jhindson1 November 23, 2006 11:33 AM PST
    The problem is Religion - all Religion. All Religion is bogus - Mark Twain. The basic problem is that Religion leads to imposing value systems on others. Christians go around imposing Christianity on the belief that non Christians will burn in hell. Muslims beleive that all non-believers are infidels and that it is their right and duty to kill infidels.
    We have to get past being being so PC that the Religious roots to all this violence cannot be aired.
    To fully understand why this is true read *End of Faith* or *Letter to a Christian Nation* by Sam Harris.
    Reply to this comment
    by November 23, 2006 11:44 AM PST
    IF they keep this up we won't need to clean up the mess they will all be dead and the oil is ours
    Reply to this comment
    by old300d November 23, 2006 12:04 PM PST
    I don't see how President Bush can live with himself. Everything he has said about Iraq has been wrong. He is the worse President we have ever had. At least Nixon had the good sense to resign. Can the world survive with him as our President for 2 more years ?
    I am a Republican. He has taken us for a ride. A ride to hell.
    Reply to this comment
    by old300d November 23, 2006 12:13 PM PST
    President Bush, please resign. You have shamed Republicans, Christians and our country.
    Reply to this comment
    by kdi9 November 23, 2006 12:23 PM PST
    I am saddedned for the whole world ... and feel we have a failed leadership in this country that is ruining our country. The costs are too high, this is destroying our nation's (and global) families, our country, and our place in the world and putting now not only our children, but our grandchildren's, and future generations lives at risk.I am angered by the greed and dishonesty that can never replace the lives of those lost on both sides of the issue.I am amazed to the capacity that Bush and Cheney have no moral compass or sense,decency, or human dignity.
    Reply to this comment
    by kdi9 November 23, 2006 12:28 PM PST
    President Bush, VP Cheney, Ms Rice and all croneys- please ALL resign or deman as a country an impeachment!
    Reply to this comment
    by kdi9 November 23, 2006 12:33 PM PST
    Why is the gov't trying to again HIDE and LIE the fact that TODAY Cheney was in IRAQ ????

    ( supposedly "with our soldiers" for Thanksgiving vs meeting).... Enough of the HIDING, LYING, an DECEPTION!! and using our troops good name as a front for failed leadership. How much LYING can American stand or tolerate?????
    Reply to this comment
    by Marlies November 23, 2006 12:33 PM PST
    Antonio: 'This country made a mess' Speaking as a European: Your COUNTRY didn't make a mess; it's that so-called Christian GOVERNMENT.
    OK, Americans chose Bush, Cheney et al., but they were lied to. Many times over. Impeach those people and while you're at it, accuse Blair, Berlusconi and Balkenende as well. They all deserve punishment.
    Reply to this comment
    by marcpcbs November 23, 2006 12:49 PM PST
    I am not a fan of Bush, nor did I vote for him but I do believe that Iraq would be having the same problems no matter who we had as President. NY was hit with a terrorist attack and any president would have had to do somethimg. This country wouldn't have stood for no responce.

    That area of the world has been a hot bed for religiously motivated terrorist activity for many years now and all this was bound to come to a boiling point sooner or later, one way or another, no matter who we had in the office of president. Because of the "export" nature of religiously motivated terrorism, this is really a global civil war. We can run away now but we'll just have to deal with it again later. then we can all blame that president to.
    Reply to this comment
    by ralphj53 November 23, 2006 12:52 PM PST
    November 23, 2006

    Hello;

    The Government DENIED that CHENEY was in IRAQ so as NOT to ENDANGER the SECURITY of the vice president.

    Things are getting HOT in IRAQ. Haven't you heard?

    I sincerely feel that Americans SHOULD NOT be involved in playing the role of MEDDIATOR between the SECTARIAN wars. This is DANGEROUS. Al Maliki already said that he COULD take care of this PROBLEM within six months, if GIVEN free rein.

    Thanks,
    rjm
    Reply to this comment
    by ceekuei November 23, 2006 12:56 PM PST
    When we read about the mayhem Bush and gang have unleashed, I am amazed how such men can sleep at night. It seems the devil and his disciples are alive and well and could be residing in the White House. There must be accountability at all levels of government just as we are responsible and accountable for our acts. If there is any honor left in Bush, he should resign follow by Cheney. They are international war criminals and must be dealt with accordingly. A clear message must be sent to all politicians that they are not above the law!
    Reply to this comment
    by bob_burd November 23, 2006 1:05 PM PST
    The Bush administration and the US military did a commendable job in driving out Saddam Hussein, tracking down he, his sons and his henchmen, removing them from power, and in some cases, from the gene pool. I commend them.

    Of course, the ones crying the hardest are the Euros like Germany, Spain and France, whose armies are unfit for anything but parades and garrison duty. They are contributing nothing in Afghanistan either, other than taking up space with their presence.

    It is weak and lame to blame the US for a civil war now taking place in Iraq, fought by tribal, ignorant and easily led legions of backward pawns whose ridiculous culture of revenge and theological beliefs make it impossible for them to leave the 13th century.

    Blame Mohammed.

    Selah
    Reply to this comment
    by dacademy November 23, 2006 1:14 PM PST
    More troops, less troops, does it really matter, does anyone really think this war is winable? The dye is cast, the genie is out of the bottle, lets get the hell out before it gets even worse. Shame on Bush, he will go down in history as the worst President ever. He has divided and bankrupted the country, finacially and morally, and now even those who were with him are asking, When is enough enough?
    Reply to this comment
    by dacademy November 23, 2006 1:15 PM PST
    More troops, less troops, does it really matter, does anyone really think this war is winable? The dye is cast, the genie is out of the bottle, lets get the hell out before it gets even worse. Shame on Bush, he will go down in history as the worst President ever. He has divided and bankrupted the country, finacially and morally, and now even those who were with him are asking, When is enough enough?
    Reply to this comment
    by marcpcbs November 23, 2006 1:16 PM PST
    Bob_Burd at 01:05 PM : Nov 23, 2006

    Curt but poignant.
    Reply to this comment
    by vamecegr November 23, 2006 1:22 PM PST
    Preach on bro
    Give them hell
    Happy thanksgiving
    Reply to this comment
    by marcpcbs November 23, 2006 1:36 PM PST
    Bob_Burd, Good point!
    Regardless of what started it or who's involved this is truly a global civil war between the 13th century and the 21 century.
    Reply to this comment
    by tiddsanbeer November 23, 2006 1:41 PM PST
    Hey Old300, if you are a republican, why don't YOU resign...you would make a good demoncrat because;
    1. I bet you fold like CHEAP luggage when the going gets tuff.
    2. You blame Bush for everything.(even the weather, ie Katrina)
    3. You offer no answers,solutions or ideas of your own. (If you have one, please, we are ALL listening.)
    4.You speak as if ALL republicans jump for joy upon hearing this continuing tragic news out of Iraq. Most ALL of us don't like it either.
    5.Worst President ever?? No major attack on US soil since 9/11. At the end of the day,Isn't that what it's TRULY ALL about?

    When we get hit again, (make no mistake, we will)You will WISH Bush was back in charge. Hind sight 20/20.

    As any good and decent man, Bush has done or tried to do everything right, and, has had both successes and failures along the way, this is REALITY. Let the politicians make it political.

    Think about this,I AGREE with you on the basic premis, we need to get out of Iraq because it has turned into a civil war. Let them fight their own civil war, then go back when they try to go nuclear.(Iran)

    In the meantime, Godspeed and enjoy...




    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 23, 2006 2:11 PM PST
    If one wish to cast blame for Iraq then one all one has to do is read two books written by republicans and never rebuked.AGAINST ALL ENEMIES and THE PRICE OF LOYALTY,I would hope by now that we are past casting blame and trying to find a solution that provides Iraq with stability.No I never voted for Bush.This is no longer and has not been about Bush for awhile.It is about a country that is torn apart for theological reasons,monetary reasons and terrorism which prior to our invasion was virtually null.The fate of Iraq does not rest in our hands alone,we are not capable of bridging their differences.They must be willing to put aside their differences and unite for their own good.T.I.T. for tat killings will not bring them any peace,the sooner they realize this and their goverment actually stands up for all of Iraqis the sooner this conflict will end.Until then we can expect more of the same.Those who have been equating Iraq with 9/11 have not researched the facts or read all of the various reports,private and goverment alike that unequivicably state that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.Let us as Americans remain civil towards each other,put our political partisanship aside and on this day pray for a better tommorrow for Iraqis and everyone else.I am a independent,and have no loyalty to any party.My only loyalty is to the citizens of America.Can we all say that and move on?
    Reply to this comment
    by old300d November 23, 2006 2:12 PM PST
    Yes, Have him resign and go back to the farm. I know, it's not his fault. He is just a C student that won't listen to his dad. What ever happended to " The buck stops here" ? Is he our leader or just a mouth piece. If he thinks Iran and Syria can stop the fight then we are really in trouble. His crazy ideas are wrecking Iraq. I am starting to think the only people he cares about are his oil buddies back in Texas. I didn't vote for him because I always give the war vet my vote and both times he was running against a war vet. I believe that someone who has been to war makes a better president no matter what party they are in.
    Reply to this comment
    by old300d November 23, 2006 2:15 PM PST
    No, I think John McCain is right. We should do the job right and quit playing.
    Reply to this comment
    by j-whitman November 23, 2006 2:34 PM PST
    Not a Civil War ??
    Reply to this comment
    by j-whitman November 23, 2006 2:34 PM PST
    Happy Thanksgiving
    Reply to this comment
    by vamecegr November 23, 2006 2:36 PM PST
    Nope not a civil war... just a gang war
    Reply to this comment
    by bushrocks1 November 23, 2006 2:39 PM PST
    Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.
    Reply to this comment
    by j-whitman November 23, 2006 2:52 PM PST
    Bushrocks,,, I'm confused, who are the trators on the home front??
    Reply to this comment
    by nadeau4201 November 23, 2006 2:57 PM PST
    "Bush is planning on exile in Paraguay" look this up.
    Reply to this comment
    by pyrimid1 November 23, 2006 3:18 PM PST
    I think that the American policy should be to support the Iraqi government by defending its institution with our military and resources. Iran,Syria and Al Queda want to support the insurgency let them but at the end of the day the Iraqi government hae to holds in thes rogue provinces that will allow a well equipped police force project its presence and that of the government. Any internal strife that that does not involve directly government institution would be quashed on case-by case basis.

    We as Americans should support action that leads to a strong Iraqi government. This support should not be limited to action that does not involve us in civil war...since currently acivil war is defined as a break down in government.

    So if Sunni and ***** via Iran and Syria are determined gain power in Iraq American policy should be to deliver the resources to the Iraqi government that nullifies the neighbors influence.

    Democrates are u listening?
    Reply to this comment
    by arthurcl1 November 23, 2006 3:44 PM PST
    Look at what Bush has done for us, what he won't talk about like spending billions on a failed policy in Irag. Going over the UN to go it alone! Recently millions of dollars of our taxpayer money for weapons for their armed forces was ripped off from under our noses by the Corrupt Iraqi government. No reconstruction going on for the people, civil war, their own corrupt police are killing their own people, and the Cleric is back to controlling Sadar City? Now ****** and Sunnis' are fighting it out in Sadar City even the Cleric can't control it! They told us to get out! Our National Debt is at 4 TRILLION! Left for our grandchildren to try to pay? What a mess Bush has us in. It's another Vietnam. We will never be able to get out of there thanks to Bush! Our country is going to go broke paying for this "Stay the Course"? war that is going nowhere fast.
    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 23, 2006 4:40 PM PST
    J-Whitman glad you have survived sunshine-2 attack on you,go to the site Bush 41 defends his son and look at how misconstrued she took your comment.
    Reply to this comment
    by rsoxfan1123 November 23, 2006 7:28 PM PST
    pyrimid1- do you even understand what is happening over there? Iran is 90% shiite. considering that the majority of Iraqis are shiite, enforcing a vote for power there effectively put the shiites in power since the Iraqis vote strictly along religious lines. If you believe that the Iranians would support an insurgency which is sunni, you have absolutely no clue how the middle east works. I bet you voted for bush also.
    Reply to this comment
    by jhindson1 November 23, 2006 7:34 PM PST
    It is spelt Q_U_A_G_M_I_R_E !!

    Reply to this comment
    by macusweil November 23, 2006 9:34 PM PST
    Impeach Bush & Cheney now!! Then let's have set of trials snd all the companies who stole from US taxpayer in this illegal was shall pay back every dime.
    Reply to this comment
    by bushrocks1 November 23, 2006 9:34 PM PST
    Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.
    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 23, 2006 10:05 PM PST
    This is a tragety that occurs to frequentially in Iraq.We sit here and post,asking questions,giving meaningless answers when we should be giving our condolences to the people of Iraq.They are enduring a civil war that regardless of how or why it began it is extracting a huge toll on their lives.The question that we should all be asking is how can we help end this conflict?
    Reply to this comment
    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 12:18 AM PST
    Radiobob saod, "The question that we should all be asking is how can we help end this conflict?
    ---

    Simple, radiobob-- make it a local issue. Make your voice heard with friends, family, your local media outlets-- they, especially, crave local POVs. Sometimes, a lone witness is all it takes to give others back their voice and conscience.

    Iraq has moved beyond a strategic problem-- these people are a bleeding, humanitarian issue. Don't think al Jazeera isn't broadcasting every second of this carnage, which what a full-fledged civil war looks like in an urban setting. The last time the world saw this was the Balkans (Bosnia), and before that (probably) Lebanon.

    Ultimately, citizen protest is what stopped Vietnam. When the pols finally got wind that staying with Nixon and secretly carpet bombing Cambodia and anybody else who got in the way was over the limit and unacceptable, they pulled back. They pulled back with enough determination to cut off funding for the war-- otherwise it would have meandered on under Ford. (radiobob pop quiz: Who was Ford's Chief of Staff?)
    Reply to this comment
    by mreldude November 24, 2006 12:22 AM PST
    yeah in other words, ******** about it on the internet is not going to help
    Reply to this comment
    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 12:27 AM PST
    Time's up!
    ---
    Ford's Chief of Staff was none other than Der Herr General Reichsmarschall Donald "You Go with the Army You've Got" Rumsfeld.
    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 24, 2006 12:43 AM PST
    Richard Cheney was Ford's chief of staff.I have written congressmen and congresswomen about Iraq for over three years regardless of their political afflilation.I do not favor staying the course as there is no plan,cutting off funds or withdrawing from Iraq is not going to settle this.If it were that easy we would be out tommorrow.There are to many deep divisions amongst portions of the Iraqi public,goverment,military and police that want control.Auotomatically it was stated by the shiite militia that this was the result of the Sunnis.Who really knows the truth?Where is the president of Iraq in governing his country?Why has Al Malki stood by and done nothing?He has failed to disarm the militias or rid the military and police of its own traitors.Iraq is in desperate need of a leader that bring the country together.
    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 24, 2006 12:48 AM PST
    I was away but you are correct Rumsfield was his chief of staff and Cheney was his assistant chief of staff.
    Reply to this comment
    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 12:52 AM PST
    Thanks radiobob-- Half of research is being able to discover new things-- I do every day.

    I stumbled upon the factoid about Rumsfeld at this site--
    http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/secdef_bio.html
    and this site--
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Inauguration/story?id=122155
    Reply to this comment
    by radiob-2009 November 24, 2006 12:56 AM PST
    I unfortunately was going off of memory at first and then did a google.I was in Nam towards the end of the war and remember it all to well.Pop quiz for you when was the last military unit out of Nam?
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    by radiob-2009 November 24, 2006 12:59 AM PST
    You can try a google but I do not beleive you will get an accurate answer.Special Forces remained into 74.
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    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 1:07 AM PST
    Bob, all I remember reading about the Last Minutes of the Last Hour was the shot of the last helicopter out of Saigon. (I always wondered about The Guy Left Behind who took that shot). l

    I draw a blank-- I am only a history buff, and I need that factoid. Was it your unit?
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    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 1:27 AM PST
    Partitioning Iraq-- 2
    In the British model for partitioning, lines are drawn and refugees allowed to pass to their home sector. In the case of India, there was no effective officialdom to safeguard passage, and groups of refugees of opposite faiths set upon each other with massive carnage. Obviously, the way to avoid that is to have the US forces-- under auspices of the UN-- shepherd the respective groups. There is no other means to keep each side from attacking refugees of the other.

    Yes, Iran would get something out of it, but so would the Saudis in secured protection for the Shia. The end point being, regional resolution of a regional problem. More than one diplomat has counseled an end to unilateralism from Bush, because he obviously does not have the attention of anybody-- least of all, those who count most.

    Iraq is the epicenter of a web of political fault lines and a history predating the United States, so the height of folly is Bush imposing his vision of the Emerald City of Democracy. Only a neocon with oil reserves in his eyes would think like that... only a neocon would want to.
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    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 1:27 AM PST
    radiobob said-- "I do not favor staying the course as there is no plan,cutting off funds or withdrawing from Iraq is not going to settle this... there are to many deep divisions amongst portions of the Iraqi public,goverment,military and police that want control..."
    ---

    Partitioning the country is likely, simply because (1) Iraq is not a nation, but a political amalgam crafted by Europeans after WWI (2) partitioning Iraq allows all sides to win something, since the violence stops, and there is no longer the issue of US withdrawal from Iraq, because there is no Iraq. The Sunnis join Syria, the Shia join Iran and the poor Kurds have no sponsor but us and a lot of diplomacy-- for example, letting Turkish Kurds migrate safely to the south to join the Kurds in North Iraq is the most likely scenario.
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    by bushrocks1 November 24, 2006 1:44 AM PST
    Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.
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    by alphaa10-2009 November 24, 2006 1:47 AM PST
    The Net is Worthless?-- 3
    If the net were not important, why do you post here, unless to make an important point? Likely, you are typical of the web user who gets his news from the web (I carelessly use "web" and "internet" as the synonyms they are not, quite). And you get the depth of print and photos/video from multiple sources, about 12 hours ahead of the evening news, and maybe five or six hours ahead of radio spot news.

    So, as you say, "*** on"-- someone, at least, is paying attention.
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