U.N.: 3,709 Iraqis Killed In October

Highest Monthly Civilian Toll Since War Started; Bush, Al-Maliki To Meet Next Week

(CBS/AP)  At least 101 Iraqis died in the country's unending sectarian slaughter Wednesday, and the United Nations reported that 3,709 Iraqi civilians were killed in October, the highest monthly toll of the 44-month-old war and one that was sure to be eclipsed when this month's dead are counted.

The United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq also said citizens were fleeing the country at a pace of 100,000 each month, and that at least 1.6 million Iraqis had left since the war began.

President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki announced they will meet Nov. 29-30 in Jordan to discuss the deteriorating security situation in Iraq. "We will focus our discussions on current developments in Iraq, progress made to date in the deliberations of a high-level joint committee on transferring security responsibilities, and the role of the region in supporting Iraq," they said in a statement.

Although collecting accurate statistics in a war zone is impossible, these figures, compiled with the help of the Iraqi health authorities, give some idea of the overall scale and shape of the violence, CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer reports. One hundred and ten children were killed in the past two months and 351 women, according to this report, are being singled out for abuse by religious extremists.

Life for Iraqis, especially in Baghdad and cities and towns in the center of the country, has become increasingly untenable. Many schools failed to open at all in September and professionals — especially professors, physicians, politicians and journalists — were falling to sectarian killer at a stunning pace.

Three hundred teachers have been killed since the start of the year. About 2 million Iraqis have either left, or been forced from their homes, since the invasion, and 1.5 million have left the country already, Palmer reports. And many of those leaving are the best and the brightest.

Lynchings have been reported as Sunnis and Shiites conduct a merciless campaign of revenge killings. Some Shiite residents in the north of Baghdad neighborhood of Hurriyah claim that militiamen and death squads are holding Sunni captives in warehouses then slaughtering them at the funerals of Shiites killed in the tit-for-tat murders.

"Because the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq is on the ground throughout Iraq, they have a more accurate birds-eye view of the deteriorating conditions," said CBS News foreign affairs analyst Pamela Falk from the U.N. "The human rights report covers areas that have not been available from other agencies or the press, including arbitrary detentions and torture."

The U.N. report was released as assassins killed a bodyguard of Iraq's parliament speaker one day after a bomb exploded in the hot-tempered politician's motorcade as it drove into a parking lot inside the fortified Green Zone in central Baghdad. It was a major security breach in the heavily guarded compound that houses the U.S. and British embassies and the Iraqi government.

In other developments:

The U.S. military reports that three Marines have been killed in Anbar province, the troubled region of western Iraq where many Sunni-Arab insurgents are based. The command says the Marines, assigned to Regimental Combat Team 7, died Wednesday from wounds sustained during enemy action. So far this month in Iraq, 52 American service members have been killed or died.

The Marines may need to grow a bit. The Marine Corps commandant says unless more men and women are added to the force, the Marines might not be able to sustain their deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan without undue stress, or without sacrificing needed training. General James Conway also told reporters this morning it could take years to adequately train and equip Iraq's security forces. And he says that could be longer than the timeline that the American people "will support."

U.S. and Iraqi forces backed by helicopters swept into Baghdad's Sadr City Shiite slum in a dark-of-night raid Tuesday that netted seven militiamen, including one believed to know the whereabouts of an American soldier kidnapped nearly a month ago.

A Marine pleaded guilty Tuesday to aggravated assault and conspiracy to obstruct justice in the death of Iraqi civilian who was shot and killed by his military unit. Lance Cpl. Jerry E. Shumate Jr. entered his pleas through his civilian attorney Steve Immel during court-martial proceedings and was expected to testify about the April incident in the town of Hamdania.

The debate over what to do about the war on Iraq - complete with catch phrases to describe each plan - has intensified, with word of a secret report on the issue, commissioned by Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. According to the Washington Post Monday, the options are: "Go big, go long or go home."

Violence also continued against Iraq's journalists Wednesday, when gunmen sprayed Raad Jaafar Hamadi with bullets as he drove his car in the capital's Washash neighborhood, said police 1st Lt. Maitham Abdul-Razaq. Hamadi worked for the state-run al-Sabah newspaper.

Continued

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©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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by itchyb-2009 November 22, 2006 7:57 AM PST

I am always baffled, given the situation and numbers of civilian deaths, how this administration and it's supporters keep warning us that Iraq could deteriorate into a "civil war". What is it, exactly, that they're in right now. Confused in WV.

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by alphaa10-2009 November 22, 2006 8:13 AM PST

The Bush regime is a criminal act in progress. Bush and Cheney and other co-spirators sought objectives in Iraq which had nothing whatever to do with national security or al Qaeda. Bush, Cheney, et al continuously lied to the American people in congress assembled, and to this day continue to lie about the reasons and justification for the American presence in Iraq.

The ten secret, multibillion-dollar military bases Halliburton builds are intended to provide American control of Iraqi oil for decades to come, and a power projection base for further American military intervention in the region. The billion-dollar American embassy bunker in the heart of Baghdad has essentially the same purpose.

The brazen criminal act of Bush and his co-conspirators goes down in history as the worst and most costly political scandal in American history, a black mark of shame on all who supported and endorsed Bush and his party. We who witness the suffering of American soldiers, their families and Iraqi civilians must do all in our power to end this criminal administration. Lies created Iraq, but more lies will not prevent disaster of major proportions.

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by radiob-2009 November 22, 2006 8:14 AM PST

itchyb There is no confusion, there is a state of denial to pardon the pun about Iraq.This is still considered small scale civil war that could very well develop into a full blown civil war.

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by krotec54 November 22, 2006 8:15 AM PST

What about the insurgents? How many killed from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Suadi Arabia and other Arab States??
How many insurgents are unidentified, in jail or sent back to their country.??

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by antoniof123 November 22, 2006 8:15 AM PST

If these fanatical right wingers say that Iraq is in a civil war then they have admitted defeat. To do that would mean that maybe just maybe God really did not send them but the went with someone else or something else. Take your pick either one is the wrong side to be on.

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by grumpas November 22, 2006 8:35 AM PST

Where is the point to these talks????? They talk and it's the same old run around all over again! They have been telling us the same tales for the last year or two! They won't admit it's a full scale civil war! To admit that would be to admit it's there own fault it's happening! They were warned that was going to be the end result! And that warning came to pass. When are the American people going to get tired of this clown wasteing their hard earned tax dollars playing his ridiculous game of "Commander in Cheif"! That is what has been the biggest surprise to me! People aren't marching in the street's over the obscene costs of this needless war! The utter waste that has taken place in Iraq! And literally nothing has been accomplished!

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by huskerarmy November 22, 2006 9:08 AM PST

I have a simple question to ask you neo-con "Christians" out there. I would sincerely like an answer. It is your assertion that this war is necessary so as to "Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here." Given your own paradigm and this obvious implication thereof... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?

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by angryliberal-2009 November 22, 2006 9:23 AM PST

Well at least the US is trying to kill the people that did this......

It would be nice if Iraq gave a **** about their people.

This is all the more reason for us to stay in Iraq, This proves that the terrorists are there.

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by krotec54 November 22, 2006 9:35 AM PST

... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?
Posted by huskerarmy at 09:08 AM : Nov 22, 2006

Are you including insurgents wives, sister, mothers and grandmoms??

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by frankly6 November 22, 2006 10:11 AM PST

We are breading a new generation of terrorists who will surely want revenge for what we've done to their country and they're people. Every innocent Iraqi that dies creates ten insurgents. These insurgents are getting hands-training in urban warfare and terrist methods. What we've actually done is turn a country the size of California into one giant terrorist training camp.

They had nothing to do with 9/11. We invaded them for their oil and we have now killed more of them than even Sadam. This moron's war is already lost and bumper sticker slogans can't cover that up any more.

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by houser123 November 22, 2006 10:16 AM PST

This is all the more reason for us to stay in Iraq, This proves that the terrorists are there.
Posted by ANGRYliberal at 09:23 AM : Nov 22, 2006

ANGRY- It's not that you just dont get it, it's the fact you can't sell it any longer. Yes there are terrorist in Iraq, especillay since the war started,before the war is a matter for debate. How can anyone defend the constant killing of innocent children, women and men. These facts cannot be contested, innocent people are dying in great numbers and we are creating more terrorists and insurgents everyday. This war was a mistake from the start and it remains a mistake. Sadaam was under control and contained. His regime would have fallen in time by the people of Iraq much like the current regime in Iran will eventually fall. Freedom starts within oneself and grows. It cannot be force fed.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 10:43 AM PST

The sooner we face reality and pull out the better off we will be. The same arguments for staying in Iraq were used in Viet Nam, except then it was the "commies" that were going to get us and now it is the "terrorists". History is repeating itself. After we pulled out of Viet Nam, everyone in America then wondered why in the world we waited so long to do so and why we threw away so many American lives. Look at Iraq and the people insisting we throw more Americans kids into that eternal cycle of violence and it becomes obvious why we didn't pull out of Viet Nam sooner. The faces have changed, but the people didn%u2019t. If history continues to repeat, we won't pull out of Iraq until the toll in human lives and on our economy is horrendous.

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by vet999999 November 22, 2006 11:18 AM PST

So, the theory is that all of this is the USA's fault....interesting. How about all the people that were being killed before we got there? Wake up, the media's motivation is to their stickholders, not the whole truth. Telling one side of a story is not telling the truth. Don't get me wrong, this is terrible, but there is more to the story than this.

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by vet999999 November 22, 2006 11:20 AM PST

That should have been stockholder....:)

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by xcrunner24 November 22, 2006 11:24 AM PST

"... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?
Posted by huskerarmy at 09:08 AM : Nov 22, 2006

Are you including insurgents wives, sister, mothers and grandmoms??"


Krotec54, so if you husband kills someone, does that mean you, your sister in law, your grandmother, mother, kids and so on all deserve to die?

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 11:52 AM PST

Most of these deaths are Iraqis killing Iraqis. The Iraqi citizens have to make a decision. They have to realize that this is not a question of who is or isn't a Muslim, this is a question of the Iraqi people who aren't bombers taking the necessary steps to stop those who are. The big problem is that many households are filled with both. This has evolved into civil war and we're in the middle of it.

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by clestes-2009 November 22, 2006 11:54 AM PST

vet999999 , let me remind you that when Saddam was in power, there was no civil war. Most of these dead are because of the raging civil war, that no one in the whitehouse will admit exists, that came about because of removing Saddam in a stupid and ill conceived plan by people who live in a fantasy world where forcing democracy on a govn will solve all problems. Lets not think about reality here, oh no. That is too much of a bummer. Just go in topple Saddam, install a democratic govn (partial to the US) and leave. All will work out.

What monumental arrogance and downright idiocy the neocons are. And now to blame the failure on Bush and the pentagon. They didn't execute the plan correctly! Well, Bush is no soldier so how can he know anything about war plans, and the pentagon had plenty of advice from soldiers on the likely outcome of their plan. The big problem was listening to the neocons in the first place.

Good going guys! I hope all these unnecessary deaths haunt you at night.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 12:03 PM PST

"and ill conceived plan by people who live in a fantasy world where forcing democracy on a govn will solve all problems."
Posted by clestes at 11:54 AM : Nov 22, 2006

right on the money, except for the fact that the "plan" never involved creating democracy except in a cursory sense. it was junior one upping daddy and making money for his oil friends that helped him rise to power.

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by vet999999 November 22, 2006 12:07 PM PST

clestes remember, there was no opinion other than sadams. he made sure of it. We don't know what was going on before the US got involved becuase the media was not reporting on it. What have been the monthly deaths for the last 20 years? I would suspect that you would find it higher than now even though it is bad. When a holiday death total is reported here is the US it is always stated with a comparison to years past so we can guage our current situration. This is not the case with iraq or even Vietnam. This is how the media is pushing their agenda and I fear we are reacting without thinking about the consequences.

How many people in iraq have jobs and access to education now, that did not 5 years ago?

Who's definition are we using to declare a civil war in iraq? 2 or 3 digruntled retired generals? Be very carefull on this.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 12:10 PM PST

Why not use a dictionary definiton of a Civil War and think for ourselves?

civil war%u2002

a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 12:15 PM PST

vet999999
When Saddam was in power there was total civil oppression and the brewings of terrorism. The problem with terrorism is that it tends to spill out of country.

Were in a difficult situation. If we stay, then we are an easy scapegoat for what should be their civil war. If we leave too soon than the Iraq will most likely fall back into a hot bed of lethal civil rights violations and a headquarters for terrorist groups. We (The UN) need to stay no longer than necessary and we need to help the Iraqi people with a decision that they have to make soon and fully commit to for their country's sake.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 12:19 PM PST

marcpcbs-what you haven't yet figured out (yet your hindsight one day will be 20/20, mark my words) is that this chaotic death pit will be endless for us. sooner or later we'll pull out and future generations will ask us why we waited so long.

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 12:23 PM PST

vet999999
You couldn't be more right about their being much more to this story.

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 12:32 PM PST

rsoxfan1123

I agree with you because I am a Viet Nam Vet. I do know a little about staying in a war too long and about the cost of lies.

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by lochlan-2009 November 22, 2006 12:36 PM PST

Good job Bush. I'm sure, as you've been telling us, the Iraqi people are thrilled we came and completly demolished their infrastructure giving them a nice safe place to live. Mission Accomplished!!! I hope you really do believe in God, I know where He's putting you.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 12:40 PM PST

marcpcbs- when Bush was running for re-election, no matter how obvious it was he was a corrupt moron, the American people just couldn't see it. NOW everyone is figuring it out and they voted the dems in power, but much damage has been done. Now the Iraq situation looks so totally obvious to me and it is frustrating that so many apparently intelligent people can't see what is happening. I have nothing but respect for those who have served in foreign wars. We owe you a debt of gratitude. We also owe it to those serving to see that their lives and limbs are not wasted meaninglessly.

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 12:44 PM PST

rsoxfan1123

Amen

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by marcor1371 November 22, 2006 12:52 PM PST

Obviously, most of you writing in with your slanted comments haven't spent one day in Iraq. So here is my suggestion to you. Go to Iraq and talk to the people. ASK THEM IF THEY THINK IT IS BETTER THAN IT WAS. Prior to the elections in Iraq, I was talking to some of the Iraqi's near Fallujah and they all said the same thing. "We will never have the freedom to vote" After the elections I had the chance to talk to them again, their index finger had purple dye, they voted. One last thing while your in Iraq, go to Fallujah or Ferris Town (south of Fallujah) and visit one of the slaughter houses (human slaughter houses). Women and children have been dying in Iraq long before we arrived. The media doesn't promote the good things that are happening in Iraq because it doesn't grab the attention of Americans as much as talking about the bad. During our reconnaissance in Iraq it was common to find dead Iraqis, that have been bound and gagged, shot execution style in the back of the head. Most of these individuals were identified as having helped the coalition forces in on way or another. I believed while I spent my tours in Iraq that an over whelming majority supported us for being there and I still do. We as Americans did not make this country free by ourselves, we needed help as well. Not everyone living in the United States at the time of the revolutionary war supported the separation from England. Changing hatred and belief doesn%u2019t happen overnight, it takes time.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 12:56 PM PST

Marcor1371- and if you want to give up your arms and legs, or your life, for a foreign country halfway across the world that, even as we write, is beginning to forge alliances with syria and iran, go right ahead. just don't ask me to give up my child for a country that I don't, to be honest, really even care that much about.

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by marcpcbs November 22, 2006 1:04 PM PST

rsoxfan1123

Our troops are fighting for more than just the country thay happen to be in.

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by bushrocks1 November 22, 2006 1:09 PM PST

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:09 PM PST

marcpcbs-they are fighting for the reasons they are told. the reality is they were put in harm's way so Junior can do better than his dad and make some money for his oil barons friends. Anyone who believes we went in there for WMD, or because we love democracy so much that we want to spread it through the world one country at a time and just decided to start with Iraq is naive.

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by diverinnl November 22, 2006 1:12 PM PST

rsoxfan1123, that is that exact same attitude that kept the US out of Europe until 1944. How many innocent people were slaughtered because we were isolationists and turned a blind eye then? The world is getting smaller everyday and we live in a "global village". If you don't want to volunteer, that is your right and I support your decision. But by saying that what is happening so far away does not effect us here is a little narrow minded. We've debated before and I know you're smarter than that.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:14 PM PST

bushrocks1-quit copy-pasting this stuff. it's annoying.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:15 PM PST

diverinnl-I'm smarter than to get my kid killed for a country that's forging aliances with our enemies even as our troops die there. talk about stupid.

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by diverinnl November 22, 2006 1:16 PM PST

Well, I have to admit that is a valid point.

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by bushrocks1 November 22, 2006 1:17 PM PST

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.

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by marcor1371 November 22, 2006 1:18 PM PST

I never asked nor did this country ask you to enlist your son or daughter in the military. It is still a choice, one decides on his own. But if your son or daughter did join, because, they felt compelled to make a differance in someone elses life, would you no longer love them, no longer value their opinions, disown them, lose respect for them? Your the type of person that would witness a violent crime and then do nothing because it didn't involve you, unless you could get something out of it.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:20 PM PST

diverinnl-thanks. that's what I like about you, you are rational and don't adhere blindly to a party line. you think for yourself and therefore make valid points as well. how you got dragged into the repubs is a mystery. maybe you are part of the extremely wealthy voter base of theirs?

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:22 PM PST

Marcor1371-I wouldn't throw thier lives away. defending our country is one thing, dying so that bush's oil buddies can make money and so Junior can try to be the great conqueror is another.

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by diverinnl November 22, 2006 1:25 PM PST

I WISH!!! My voter registration card says 'NP' for No Party. I generally vote Republican based on Fiscal values (i.e. taxes) but I have voted Democrat and am willing to again if the person is right for the job.

I sincerely appreciate the kind words and the feeling is mutual.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:25 PM PST

Marcor1371 -you're the kind of person that believes what he's told by the higher-ups and doesn't think for himself. you've bought the party line hook and sinker and believe we are there for WMD, or to spread democracy, or because iraq blew up the world trade center, or whatever other new reason comes along. wake up.

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by observantx November 22, 2006 1:28 PM PST

That is what has been the biggest surprise to me! People aren't marching in the streets over the obscene costs of this needless war! The utter waste that has taken place in Iraq! And literally nothing has been accomplished!

Grumpas;

I think to the real reason there has been no protest is that there is not a draft. Fearless Leader knows that if there was a draft and the average voter saw their sons and daughters being rounded up for service in this debacle, the fence around our White House would have been flattened by hordes of protesters by now. Since we don%u2019t have unwilling conscripts being thrown into the meat grinder, there is no fuss.

His backdoor solution is the National Guard. Fearless Leader just keeps rotating them in over and over and delaying their return to their families when their tours are up. In essence, they HAVE been drafted.

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by laurieleemoo November 22, 2006 1:41 PM PST

way to go bozos---thats it ...keep killing your own people you MORONS! What idiots those Iraqis are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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by marcor1371 November 22, 2006 1:42 PM PST

Well rsoxfan1123, you are obviously a democrat and vote directly on that line. Which is fine. Your son or daughter may not have a choice, the democratic party would like to re-instate the draft. I'm not sure why, the services are holding, recruiting levels have not dropped that drastically, and everyone that is currently in a branch of the service joined while this country was at war. The only way my friends and subordinates will have died in vain, would be to pull out now. The lives that have been lost should be for something, we need to stay the course. I am active duty Marine Corps and I just finished my 3rd tour in Iraq. I have spent 21 months out of the last 32 in Iraq. I know what it is to spend time away from my wife and two daughters (age 6 & 8). The first time I went over to Iraq my oldest daughter at that time was 6 and told me it was time to be someone elses hero for awhile. I told her I was no hero. She stated "a hero is someone who does something good for someone else.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 1:48 PM PST

Marcor1371-you do realize that the same logic you are using now was tried in Viet Nam? We'd STILL be "staying the course" there as well had we followed it. I do have a tremendous amount of respect for those who serve, however, and have friends in the army that have also served in Desert Storm. I just hate to see you die for lies.

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by diverinnl November 22, 2006 2:03 PM PST

One of the major problems the military now faces over there is that we are asking these fine guys and gals to be diplomats, much as we did in Vietnam. That is not their job. They are caught in the crossfire of a civil war between Islamic sects and can't readily identify the enemy. I am a veteren of the first gulf war and know full well the capabilities of Saddam if left to his own devices. He had to go, it's that simple but if we leave now, we run a very distinct risk of the Iranians creating another nation of zealots, further destabilizing and already shaky region. I am split on this. I don't want to subject our citizens, especially those who willingly sacrifice for us, to be the worlds police force. On the other hand, I don't want our nation to create a deeper vacuum in that region that sucks in terrorists and zealots and spits them out at us and our allies. Is there a right answer?

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 2:04 PM PST

Marcor1371- my daughter is six now. I hope everything turns out ok for you. your daughter deserves to know her father.

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by rsoxfan1123 November 22, 2006 2:05 PM PST

diverinnl-the answer lies in rebuilding the ties with the UN that bush wrecked and working cooperatively in the region.

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by diverinnl November 22, 2006 2:09 PM PST

You're right but we've probably lost any and all credibility in the UN. If we go back now, hat in hand, we will definitely lose any leverage we may still have. They will eat us alive with "I told ya' so's".

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[itchyb-2009]

I am always baffled, given the situation and numbers of civilian deaths, how this administration and it's supporters keep warning us that Iraq could deteriorate into a "civil war". What is it, exactly, that they're in right now. Confused in WV.

[alphaa10-2009]

The Bush regime is a criminal act in progress. Bush and Cheney and other co-spirators sought objectives in Iraq which had nothing whatever to do with national security or al Qaeda. Bush, Cheney, et al continuously lied to the American people in congress assembled, and to this day continue to lie about the reasons and justification for the American presence in Iraq.

The ten secret, multibillion-dollar military bases Halliburton builds are intended to provide American control of Iraqi oil for decades to come, and a power projection base for further American military intervention in the region. The billion-dollar American embassy bunker in the heart of Baghdad has essentially the same purpose.

The brazen criminal act of Bush and his co-conspirators goes down in history as the worst and most costly political scandal in American history, a black mark of shame on all who supported and endorsed Bush and his party. We who witness the suffering of American soldiers, their families and Iraqi civilians must do all in our power to end this criminal administration. Lies created Iraq, but more lies will not prevent disaster of major proportions.

[radiob-2009]

itchyb There is no confusion, there is a state of denial to pardon the pun about Iraq.This is still considered small scale civil war that could very well develop into a full blown civil war.

[krotec54]

What about the insurgents? How many killed from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Suadi Arabia and other Arab States??
How many insurgents are unidentified, in jail or sent back to their country.??

[antoniof123]

If these fanatical right wingers say that Iraq is in a civil war then they have admitted defeat. To do that would mean that maybe just maybe God really did not send them but the went with someone else or something else. Take your pick either one is the wrong side to be on.

[grumpas]

Where is the point to these talks????? They talk and it's the same old run around all over again! They have been telling us the same tales for the last year or two! They won't admit it's a full scale civil war! To admit that would be to admit it's there own fault it's happening! They were warned that was going to be the end result! And that warning came to pass. When are the American people going to get tired of this clown wasteing their hard earned tax dollars playing his ridiculous game of "Commander in Cheif"! That is what has been the biggest surprise to me! People aren't marching in the street's over the obscene costs of this needless war! The utter waste that has taken place in Iraq! And literally nothing has been accomplished!

[huskerarmy]

I have a simple question to ask you neo-con "Christians" out there. I would sincerely like an answer. It is your assertion that this war is necessary so as to "Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here." Given your own paradigm and this obvious implication thereof... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?

[angryliberal-2009]

Well at least the US is trying to kill the people that did this......

It would be nice if Iraq gave a **** about their people.

This is all the more reason for us to stay in Iraq, This proves that the terrorists are there.

[krotec54]

... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?
Posted by huskerarmy at 09:08 AM : Nov 22, 2006

Are you including insurgents wives, sister, mothers and grandmoms??

[frankly6]

We are breading a new generation of terrorists who will surely want revenge for what we've done to their country and they're people. Every innocent Iraqi that dies creates ten insurgents. These insurgents are getting hands-training in urban warfare and terrist methods. What we've actually done is turn a country the size of California into one giant terrorist training camp.

They had nothing to do with 9/11. We invaded them for their oil and we have now killed more of them than even Sadam. This moron's war is already lost and bumper sticker slogans can't cover that up any more.

[houser123]

This is all the more reason for us to stay in Iraq, This proves that the terrorists are there.
Posted by ANGRYliberal at 09:23 AM : Nov 22, 2006

ANGRY- It's not that you just dont get it, it's the fact you can't sell it any longer. Yes there are terrorist in Iraq, especillay since the war started,before the war is a matter for debate. How can anyone defend the constant killing of innocent children, women and men. These facts cannot be contested, innocent people are dying in great numbers and we are creating more terrorists and insurgents everyday. This war was a mistake from the start and it remains a mistake. Sadaam was under control and contained. His regime would have fallen in time by the people of Iraq much like the current regime in Iran will eventually fall. Freedom starts within oneself and grows. It cannot be force fed.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

[rsoxfan1123]

The sooner we face reality and pull out the better off we will be. The same arguments for staying in Iraq were used in Viet Nam, except then it was the "commies" that were going to get us and now it is the "terrorists". History is repeating itself. After we pulled out of Viet Nam, everyone in America then wondered why in the world we waited so long to do so and why we threw away so many American lives. Look at Iraq and the people insisting we throw more Americans kids into that eternal cycle of violence and it becomes obvious why we didn't pull out of Viet Nam sooner. The faces have changed, but the people didn%u2019t. If history continues to repeat, we won't pull out of Iraq until the toll in human lives and on our economy is horrendous.

[vet999999]

So, the theory is that all of this is the USA's fault....interesting. How about all the people that were being killed before we got there? Wake up, the media's motivation is to their stickholders, not the whole truth. Telling one side of a story is not telling the truth. Don't get me wrong, this is terrible, but there is more to the story than this.

[vet999999]

That should have been stockholder....:)

[xcrunner24]

"... How many deaths of Iraqi women and children equals to one American death?
Posted by huskerarmy at 09:08 AM : Nov 22, 2006

Are you including insurgents wives, sister, mothers and grandmoms??"


Krotec54, so if you husband kills someone, does that mean you, your sister in law, your grandmother, mother, kids and so on all deserve to die?

[marcpcbs]

Most of these deaths are Iraqis killing Iraqis. The Iraqi citizens have to make a decision. They have to realize that this is not a question of who is or isn't a Muslim, this is a question of the Iraqi people who aren't bombers taking the necessary steps to stop those who are. The big problem is that many households are filled with both. This has evolved into civil war and we're in the middle of it.

[clestes-2009]

vet999999 , let me remind you that when Saddam was in power, there was no civil war. Most of these dead are because of the raging civil war, that no one in the whitehouse will admit exists, that came about because of removing Saddam in a stupid and ill conceived plan by people who live in a fantasy world where forcing democracy on a govn will solve all problems. Lets not think about reality here, oh no. That is too much of a bummer. Just go in topple Saddam, install a democratic govn (partial to the US) and leave. All will work out.

What monumental arrogance and downright idiocy the neocons are. And now to blame the failure on Bush and the pentagon. They didn't execute the plan correctly! Well, Bush is no soldier so how can he know anything about war plans, and the pentagon had plenty of advice from soldiers on the likely outcome of their plan. The big problem was listening to the neocons in the first place.

Good going guys! I hope all these unnecessary deaths haunt you at night.

[rsoxfan1123]

"and ill conceived plan by people who live in a fantasy world where forcing democracy on a govn will solve all problems."
Posted by clestes at 11:54 AM : Nov 22, 2006

right on the money, except for the fact that the "plan" never involved creating democracy except in a cursory sense. it was junior one upping daddy and making money for his oil friends that helped him rise to power.

[vet999999]

clestes remember, there was no opinion other than sadams. he made sure of it. We don't know what was going on before the US got involved becuase the media was not reporting on it. What have been the monthly deaths for the last 20 years? I would suspect that you would find it higher than now even though it is bad. When a holiday death total is reported here is the US it is always stated with a comparison to years past so we can guage our current situration. This is not the case with iraq or even Vietnam. This is how the media is pushing their agenda and I fear we are reacting without thinking about the consequences.

How many people in iraq have jobs and access to education now, that did not 5 years ago?

Who's definition are we using to declare a civil war in iraq? 2 or 3 digruntled retired generals? Be very carefull on this.

[rsoxfan1123]

Why not use a dictionary definiton of a Civil War and think for ourselves?

civil war%u2002

a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

[marcpcbs]

vet999999
When Saddam was in power there was total civil oppression and the brewings of terrorism. The problem with terrorism is that it tends to spill out of country.

Were in a difficult situation. If we stay, then we are an easy scapegoat for what should be their civil war. If we leave too soon than the Iraq will most likely fall back into a hot bed of lethal civil rights violations and a headquarters for terrorist groups. We (The UN) need to stay no longer than necessary and we need to help the Iraqi people with a decision that they have to make soon and fully commit to for their country's sake.

[rsoxfan1123]

marcpcbs-what you haven't yet figured out (yet your hindsight one day will be 20/20, mark my words) is that this chaotic death pit will be endless for us. sooner or later we'll pull out and future generations will ask us why we waited so long.

[marcpcbs]

vet999999
You couldn't be more right about their being much more to this story.

[marcpcbs]

rsoxfan1123

I agree with you because I am a Viet Nam Vet. I do know a little about staying in a war too long and about the cost of lies.

[lochlan-2009]

Good job Bush. I'm sure, as you've been telling us, the Iraqi people are thrilled we came and completly demolished their infrastructure giving them a nice safe place to live. Mission Accomplished!!! I hope you really do believe in God, I know where He's putting you.

[rsoxfan1123]

marcpcbs- when Bush was running for re-election, no matter how obvious it was he was a corrupt moron, the American people just couldn't see it. NOW everyone is figuring it out and they voted the dems in power, but much damage has been done. Now the Iraq situation looks so totally obvious to me and it is frustrating that so many apparently intelligent people can't see what is happening. I have nothing but respect for those who have served in foreign wars. We owe you a debt of gratitude. We also owe it to those serving to see that their lives and limbs are not wasted meaninglessly.

[marcpcbs]

rsoxfan1123

Amen

[marcor1371]

Obviously, most of you writing in with your slanted comments haven't spent one day in Iraq. So here is my suggestion to you. Go to Iraq and talk to the people. ASK THEM IF THEY THINK IT IS BETTER THAN IT WAS. Prior to the elections in Iraq, I was talking to some of the Iraqi's near Fallujah and they all said the same thing. "We will never have the freedom to vote" After the elections I had the chance to talk to them again, their index finger had purple dye, they voted. One last thing while your in Iraq, go to Fallujah or Ferris Town (south of Fallujah) and visit one of the slaughter houses (human slaughter houses). Women and children have been dying in Iraq long before we arrived. The media doesn't promote the good things that are happening in Iraq because it doesn't grab the attention of Americans as much as talking about the bad. During our reconnaissance in Iraq it was common to find dead Iraqis, that have been bound and gagged, shot execution style in the back of the head. Most of these individuals were identified as having helped the coalition forces in on way or another. I believed while I spent my tours in Iraq that an over whelming majority supported us for being there and I still do. We as Americans did not make this country free by ourselves, we needed help as well. Not everyone living in the United States at the time of the revolutionary war supported the separation from England. Changing hatred and belief doesn%u2019t happen overnight, it takes time.

[rsoxfan1123]

Marcor1371- and if you want to give up your arms and legs, or your life, for a foreign country halfway across the world that, even as we write, is beginning to forge alliances with syria and iran, go right ahead. just don't ask me to give up my child for a country that I don't, to be honest, really even care that much about.

[marcpcbs]

rsoxfan1123

Our troops are fighting for more than just the country thay happen to be in.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.

[rsoxfan1123]

marcpcbs-they are fighting for the reasons they are told. the reality is they were put in harm's way so Junior can do better than his dad and make some money for his oil barons friends. Anyone who believes we went in there for WMD, or because we love democracy so much that we want to spread it through the world one country at a time and just decided to start with Iraq is naive.

[diverinnl]

rsoxfan1123, that is that exact same attitude that kept the US out of Europe until 1944. How many innocent people were slaughtered because we were isolationists and turned a blind eye then? The world is getting smaller everyday and we live in a "global village". If you don't want to volunteer, that is your right and I support your decision. But by saying that what is happening so far away does not effect us here is a little narrow minded. We've debated before and I know you're smarter than that.

[rsoxfan1123]

bushrocks1-quit copy-pasting this stuff. it's annoying.

[rsoxfan1123]

diverinnl-I'm smarter than to get my kid killed for a country that's forging aliances with our enemies even as our troops die there. talk about stupid.

[diverinnl]

Well, I have to admit that is a valid point.

[bushrocks1]

Would I send my son to this war? You might ask would I send him to WW II? Or Vietnam? Maybe you would distinguish those conflicts and whether you would send your son to fight in them. But that question is misdirected in a very important way: I can't command my son to go to war. He has to make that choice. So the better question would be: would I volunteer to fight in Iraq, WW II, Vietnam? Would I volunteer to fight in any war? Respond if drafted? I don%u2019t know. I'm not equivocating, only addressing that it is a hypothetical. As a hypothetical, I can say, sure I'd fight. But I have nightmares of battle (from my past life as a Jacobite). So how do I feel toward those who do volunteer? Impressed and maturely knowing that many things go into their decision. But I do strongly believe that a country who can't find those men is doomed. The fact that we can find them is one reason why I say there is no failure in Iraq. Objectively, I also believe it for other reasons. An attempt to establish democracy in the Middle East is a bold, brilliant, noble effort, facing a high chance of failure. That's why I greatly respect and admire those who have made the attempt--the Bush administration. They have been resolute, something I have not seen in my lifetime. They may not succeed, for reasons outside their control or fault: traitors on the home front, being a big one. But now those traitors have apparently occupied the high ground. Yet... we're still in Iraq. Why?... I'm waiting.

[marcor1371]

I never asked nor did this country ask you to enlist your son or daughter in the military. It is still a choice, one decides on his own. But if your son or daughter did join, because, they felt compelled to make a differance in someone elses life, would you no longer love them, no longer value their opinions, disown them, lose respect for them? Your the type of person that would witness a violent crime and then do nothing because it didn't involve you, unless you could get something out of it.

[rsoxfan1123]

diverinnl-thanks. that's what I like about you, you are rational and don't adhere blindly to a party line. you think for yourself and therefore make valid points as well. how you got dragged into the repubs is a mystery. maybe you are part of the extremely wealthy voter base of theirs?

[rsoxfan1123]

Marcor1371-I wouldn't throw thier lives away. defending our country is one thing, dying so that bush's oil buddies can make money and so Junior can try to be the great conqueror is another.

[diverinnl]

I WISH!!! My voter registration card says 'NP' for No Party. I generally vote Republican based on Fiscal values (i.e. taxes) but I have voted Democrat and am willing to again if the person is right for the job.

I sincerely appreciate the kind words and the feeling is mutual.

[rsoxfan1123]

Marcor1371 -you're the kind of person that believes what he's told by the higher-ups and doesn't think for himself. you've bought the party line hook and sinker and believe we are there for WMD, or to spread democracy, or because iraq blew up the world trade center, or whatever other new reason comes along. wake up.

[observantx]

That is what has been the biggest surprise to me! People aren't marching in the streets over the obscene costs of this needless war! The utter waste that has taken place in Iraq! And literally nothing has been accomplished!

Grumpas;

I think to the real reason there has been no protest is that there is not a draft. Fearless Leader knows that if there was a draft and the average voter saw their sons and daughters being rounded up for service in this debacle, the fence around our White House would have been flattened by hordes of protesters by now. Since we don%u2019t have unwilling conscripts being thrown into the meat grinder, there is no fuss.

His backdoor solution is the National Guard. Fearless Leader just keeps rotating them in over and over and delaying their return to their families when their tours are up. In essence, they HAVE been drafted.

[laurieleemoo]

way to go bozos---thats it ...keep killing your own people you MORONS! What idiots those Iraqis are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[marcor1371]

Well rsoxfan1123, you are obviously a democrat and vote directly on that line. Which is fine. Your son or daughter may not have a choice, the democratic party would like to re-instate the draft. I'm not sure why, the services are holding, recruiting levels have not dropped that drastically, and everyone that is currently in a branch of the service joined while this country was at war. The only way my friends and subordinates will have died in vain, would be to pull out now. The lives that have been lost should be for something, we need to stay the course. I am active duty Marine Corps and I just finished my 3rd tour in Iraq. I have spent 21 months out of the last 32 in Iraq. I know what it is to spend time away from my wife and two daughters (age 6 & 8). The first time I went over to Iraq my oldest daughter at that time was 6 and told me it was time to be someone elses hero for awhile. I told her I was no hero. She stated "a hero is someone who does something good for someone else.

[rsoxfan1123]

Marcor1371-you do realize that the same logic you are using now was tried in Viet Nam? We'd STILL be "staying the course" there as well had we followed it. I do have a tremendous amount of respect for those who serve, however, and have friends in the army that have also served in Desert Storm. I just hate to see you die for lies.

[diverinnl]

One of the major problems the military now faces over there is that we are asking these fine guys and gals to be diplomats, much as we did in Vietnam. That is not their job. They are caught in the crossfire of a civil war between Islamic sects and can't readily identify the enemy. I am a veteren of the first gulf war and know full well the capabilities of Saddam if left to his own devices. He had to go, it's that simple but if we leave now, we run a very distinct risk of the Iranians creating another nation of zealots, further destabilizing and already shaky region. I am split on this. I don't want to subject our citizens, especially those who willingly sacrifice for us, to be the worlds police force. On the other hand, I don't want our nation to create a deeper vacuum in that region that sucks in terrorists and zealots and spits them out at us and our allies. Is there a right answer?

[rsoxfan1123]

Marcor1371- my daughter is six now. I hope everything turns out ok for you. your daughter deserves to know her father.

[rsoxfan1123]

diverinnl-the answer lies in rebuilding the ties with the UN that bush wrecked and working cooperatively in the region.

[diverinnl]

You're right but we've probably lost any and all credibility in the UN. If we go back now, hat in hand, we will definitely lose any leverage we may still have. They will eat us alive with "I told ya' so's".