Olmert Tries To Defuse Anger Over War

Israeli PM Responds To Public Discontent, Rules Out Talks With Syria

(CBS/AP)  Prime Minister Ehud Olmert tried to defuse growing public anger Monday over his handling of the war against Hezbollah, promising to rebuild rocket-scarred border areas but rejecting peace talks with Syria, a key supporter of the Lebanese guerrillas.

With efforts to recruit troops for an international peacekeeping force facing resistance from Europe, the week-old truce appeared increasingly fragile. The Israeli army, which is waiting for the U.N. force to arrive before fully withdrawing from southern Lebanon, said its soldiers shot two Hezbollah guerrillas who approached in a "threatening manner" late Monday. A Hezbollah official called the report "untrue and entirely baseless."

The Lebanese army has orders to shoot anyone who breaks the ceasefire, reports CBS News correspondent Allen Pizzey, but for the moment, all they seem to be concentrating on is re-establishing checkpoints which are now dominated by Hezbollah posters.

Italy has indicated it would be prepared to send 3,000 soldiers and offered Monday to command the enhanced international force. France, which currently leads the force, has pledged only 400. If Rome follows through, other European countries might be more willing to commit troops.

Meanwhile on Monday, President Bush called for quick deployment of an international force to help uphold the fragile cease-fire in Lebanon. "The need is urgent," Mr. Bush said at a news conference.

But Europe has been hesitant to get involved because of questions about whether the force will be called on to disarm Hezbollah fighters, who have largely melted back into the civilian population. Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh have offered front-line troops but Israel does not want them because those Muslim nations have not recognized the Jewish state.

Since the U.N.-brokered cease-fire took effect, ending 34 days of war, the Israeli public's frustration with the performance of the government and the military has grown steadily. On Monday, hundreds of reservists signed a petition calling for an official inquiry, some marching outside Olmert's office to demand his resignation.

Olmert's government, a coalition headed by his centrist Kadima party and the moderate Labor party, is in no immediate danger of collapse. It could be brought down only by parliament, which is in recess until October, and it is not clear whether the public storm will last until then.

"I think Olmert will simply allow the anger to pass and get on with his business," said Gadi Wolfsfeld, a professor of political science at Hebrew University. He said none of the parties in the ruling coalition are eager to hold new elections, and there is no leader in Kadima with the clout to replace him.

The war, launched in response to a Hezbollah raid in which two soldiers were captured and three killed, initially enjoyed broad public support that withered as the fighting dragged on and the Israeli death toll grew. Critics said Israel's political and military leaders were indecisive, set unrealistic goals and settled for an insufficient truce.

The harshest criticism has come from reserve soldiers, who form an integral part of the military. Reservists returning from Lebanon complained about poor command and a lack of food, water and equipment.

"No goal was achieved. ... Nothing was done in this war," Roni Elmakyes, whose son Omri was killed in the fighting, told Israel Radio.

Even the army's leadership began to show signs of dissent. Brig. Gen. Yossi Hyman, the outgoing head of infantry, said this week that "we all feel a certain sense of failure."

Olmert has said he is ready for an investigation, but did not say what kind. An independent commission could call for the resignation of government and military officials.

During a tour of the north Monday, Olmert appeared cool toward such an inquiry, saying the second-guessing would undermine the army. "I won't play this game, the game of beating ourselves up," he said.

The defense ministry has already established a team to look into the war, but the panel of retired generals has been derided as toothless.

Olmert's tour stops included Kiryat Shemona, one of the hardest-hit border towns, and the Arab village of Maghar, which also came under Hezbollah rocket fire during the fighting.

Facing local officials, Olmert pledged speedy reconstruction and defended his government's performance. He also appeared to pin some of the blame on his predecessors, saying his government had been in power for just two months when the war broke out.

"We knew for years that there was a great danger, but for some reason, we didn't translate that understanding into action, like we just did," he said. "We knew what Iran was doing, what Syria was doing, arming Hezbollah. We acted as if we didn't know."

Olmert also rejected a proposal by some members of his Cabinet to resume peace talks with Syria, a key Hezbollah supporter. He said talks could resume only if Syria stops supporting militant groups.

"Syria is a committed, aggressive member of the axis of evil, which starts in Iran," Olmert said. "Before we negotiate with (President) Bashar Assad, let him stop launching missiles, by means of Hezbollah, onto the heads of innocent Israelis."

The three main U.S. allies in the Arab world — Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia — have been pushing for a revival of negotiations between Israel and Syria because they are worried the Lebanon war has given a boost to Iran, an ally of Syria.

In other developments:

Nearly all of the 180,000 Lebanese who took refuge in Syria during the war had returned by Sunday, leaving only 2,500 to 5,000 refugees there, said U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees spokesman Jack Redden.

Lebanon needs about $3.5 billion to repair buildings and infrastructure damaged during the war, and the rebuilding effort was being hampered by lack of government leadership, the Lebanese official in charge of reconstruction, Fadel al-Shalaq, told CNN.

The deputy leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Naim Kassem, said in a television interview that one of his sons was badly wounded during fighting against Israeli troops.

Israel handed over to U.N. peacekeepers five Lebanese men who were captured during an Israeli commando raid on Aug. 1 in Baalbek. At least 16 Lebanese were killed in the raid on what authorities in the Bekaa Valley city said was in Iranian-built hospital. Israel said the building was a Hezbollah base.



©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Add a Comment See all 28 Comments

by grazinggoat August 21, 2006 9:04 AM PDT

What if Lebanese government built a long wall along its border with Israel, 3 feet in Lebanese territory? Would that draw International condemnation?

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by lochlan-2009 August 21, 2006 9:16 AM PDT

It looks like Israel is just itching to start blowing up Lebanese citizens again, now that Bush looks like he tried and accomplished a temporary cease fire. We'll be hearing from our media within a week that a rocket went into Israel with caualties, whether it's true or not they'll have their excuse.

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by grazinggoat August 21, 2006 9:40 AM PDT

LOCHLAN, it seems to be the case. They will act in duet, Israel on Lebanese Population and its resistence, and GWBush over Iran. See the Oil price has increased significantly since this week end. Very much likely the petroleum industry has decided to go ahead, with the increase in order to finance the USArmy plan and actions in the Middle East. We, poor taxpayers, who have no word saying have to pay despite one's refusal to support war effort.

Reply to this comment

by ronniehm August 21, 2006 9:57 AM PDT

How would it benefit Israel to blow up Lebanese citizens? How does it benefit the US Army to have higher oil prices? Just wondering. P.S. Goat, if you're just going to keep repeating how stupid and ignorant I am, let someone else answer.

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by emanualhyman August 21, 2006 10:10 AM PDT

Grazingoat, Israels actions are aimed at preventing additional import of arms aimed at Israel. The Hizbula idea of rockets in private houses, if repeated in Lebanon, Gaza, Judea and Samaria would constitute an incredible existential threat to Israel, given the Jihadists proclaimed objective of Israel%u2019s destruction, and the state of war that still exists between Lebanon and Israel following Lebanon%u2019s attack in 1948. Israel%u2019s right of self defense includes preventing introduction of additional weapons in Hizbulas hands. Do I seem to remember the U.S. being nervous about the prospect of Soviet weapons in Cuba? Certainly, Israel has much more to fear from a ring of armed nations round it than the U.S. ever had to fear from Cuba.

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by grazinggoat August 21, 2006 10:40 AM PDT

RonnieHm, Sorry but you are confusing me with Reuben110. I try not to insult anybody when I commit a comment or an answer. It never pays well to inflame or poison a discussion with personal attacks. Go to Bloomberg.com/energy/ and you'll see the increase in price. Why such an increase for a sudden? There 's no indication of instability. Truce in Lebanon is still holding, Iran is showing its muscles, but that is it, not planning attacks or whatsover. It recently increased it's oil production by 125, 000 barrel per day. There is no oil delivery disruption anywhere in the world, so why is it, this increase? You check it yourself at the gaz pump. Every once there had been a sharp increase in the gaz price, it was followed by a US Army incursion in a country or major US army action in an already occupied one.

Why did Israel at first attack civilians, and civilian infrastructure? What benefited to Israel? Nothing most probably. No gain except in preparation for occupying the Land of Lebanon, because it's part of the Biblical Plan, to occupy the whole middle-east From Mediterranea to Euphratis. This is what's most dangerous, because it's pushed by the whole Neo-Cons/ Evangelicals/ teaming up with the Pro-Israeli lobby in order to push their agenda and plan in the middle-east. That did not work. The Lebanese resistence has stopped them from doing that. I'm sure that they'll retry again, and again.

Reply to this comment

by ronniehm August 21, 2006 11:17 AM PDT

Goat, sorry if I lumped you in with Reuben. I know the price is up about 70 cents today. The generally accepted cause is the announcement by Iran that they intend to ignore the UN on its nuclear program. Anyway, I'm certainly not disputing the price of oil. Number are numbers. What I was wondering is how that 70-cent increase in oil prices will benefit the US Army.

I can't speak for Israel, nor would I try, but the statements out of there suggest that the infrastructure of Hezbollah-run territory was destroyed in order to prevent the arrival of weapons from Syria and Iran. Israel probably feels that had UN resolution 1559 been implemented, we would not be in the situation that we're in today. I agree with that. As for civilians, I saw no indication that Israel targeted civilians. The fact that civilians died does not in itself prove that they were targeted unless you are also injecting your own opinion of Israel into the conclusion. As I understand it, Israeli strikes that killed civilians were generally in tune with the locations of Hezbollah rocket launchers. But that's neither here nor there. My question was how does it benefit Israel to kill civilians? If there's no obvious benefit to Israel, it seems unlikely that it was Israel's goal. Occupying Lebanon is not a likely goal because Israel had already done that and left years ago. Besides, killing civlians on purpose would not help to achieve that goal. It would hinder that goal.

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by ronniehm August 21, 2006 11:21 AM PDT

I'd ask how Lebanese civilian casualties benefit Hezbollah, but I already know that answer. It's why that "massacre" was initially reported as 40 dead civilians, when in fact only one guy died. It's why photos of rescue operations are staged (badly). It's why missiles are added to images of planes flying overhead. If the Israelis were such butchers, such exaggerations would hardly be necessary.

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by abe124 August 21, 2006 8:01 PM PDT

The havoc wreaked on Lebanon is perhaps a million times more than what Israelis suffered. And yet most Israelis feel victimized. It is this sort of irony that has provoked some quarters around the world to question the exaggerated statistics whenever the Jews are the likely victims. I love the Jews but their statistics are questionable whenever they happen to be a beneficiary of such inflated data.

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by peace_missio August 21, 2006 8:01 PM PDT

Israel is terrorist country and US is harboring and providing weapons to these terrorists, Who ever kills civilians is a terrorist.

PEACE.

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by ronniehm August 21, 2006 8:07 PM PDT

But Abe, didn't you hear? Hezbollah won.

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 8:20 AM PDT

Oh dear Ronnie,allow me to correct you once again if I may, as you are sarcastically claiming Hizbollah won.

Hizbollah did actualy win. Had Olmert been informed as to how the war would unfold, he would have been insane to have conducted it. Had he been told, you will not secure the release of the 2 captured soldiers, you will not disarm Hizbolah, you will be forced into a ceasefire, you will evoke mass support for Hizbollah to the extent they may very well dominate Lebanese politicss, you will draft in reservists who have not thrown greandes in 15 years, you will equip them poorly to the extent that they will pittifully have to drink from a Hizbollah canteen, that you soldiers communications will be so bad that the soldiers will shoot each other believing they are facing Israeli disguised Hizbollah guerillas, had he been informed that there would be violent protests in places as obscure as Manilla, had he been informed how badly his ratings would suffer,had he been informed that he would be unable to take al manar off the air, had he been informed that on the very last day of war Israel would still be unale to intercept 250 rockets with Iraelis living in terror...do you think he would have conducted it?

Ronnie you are being silly (censored) you are looking at it from the erspective of Israel vs Lebanon, not Israel versus Hizbollah...wake up my friend!

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 8:21 AM PDT

Oh dear Ronnie,allow me to correct you once again if I may, as you are sarcastically claiming Hizbollah won.

Hizbollah did actualy win. Had Olmert been informed as to how the war would unfold, he would have been insane to have conducted it. Had he been told, you will not secure the release of the 2 captured soldiers, you will not disarm Hizbolah, you will be forced into a ceasefire, you will evoke mass support for Hizbollah to the extent they may very well dominate Lebanese politicss, you will draft in reservists who have not thrown greandes in 15 years, you will equip them poorly to the extent that they will pittifully have to drink from a Hizbollah canteen, that you soldiers communications will be so bad that the soldiers will shoot each other believing they are facing Israeli disguised Hizbollah guerillas, had he been informed that there would be violent protests in places as obscure as Manilla, had he been informed how badly his ratings would suffer,had he been informed that he would be unable to take al manar off the air, had he been informed that on the very last day of war Israel would still be unale to intercept 250 rockets with Iraelis living in terror...do you think he would have conducted it?

Ronnie you are being silly (censored) you are looking at it from the erspective of Israel vs Lebanon, not Israel versus Hizbollah...wake up my friend!

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 8:32 AM PDT

Oh and the aspect you and the Israelis care about the least...had he been told that you will displace 5million, kill 1000 civillians(mostly women and children) and injure at least 3000 without achieveing the objectives you started the campaign with..can you really say its been worth it?

I would like you to be so kind as to consider a parrallel, had England decided in the 80s as it too was facing the very dangerous IRA(based in North) to bomb cities such as Dublin and Corke on the basis that IRA members were partially based there, had Britain killed 1000 Irish displaced 5 million in that procss whilst refusing to allow aid in...Had they done that, do you not think there would have been world wide outrage? Perhaps this will help your understanding as to why Israel is percieved as a butcherer, If that doesnt cut it for be sure to holler, there are a plethora of reasons...ask and you shall recieve...(If i have the spare time to wait around and see what your response is)

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by johnny51214 August 22, 2006 8:42 AM PDT

Ronnie, time to pack up bro, we all witnessed and cringed upon the last embarrasement you suffered at the hands of this guy last time.You cant have it both ways, your side is more poweful that is a victory for you dont get greedy..and try to claim righteousness simultaniously...before you embarass yourself once again!

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by ronniehm August 22, 2006 8:45 AM PDT

Wow, 5 million displaced people in a country with a population of less than 4 million. Yeah, I guess you won.

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 9:02 AM PDT

I have read claims, and i need not specify the point of origin before it is percieved that I have a personal vendetta..that Israel do not taret civillians.

When a man with the stature of Kofi Annan claims i front of a world audience that Israel intentionally attacked the UN, Im sure that he is sure that they did, for a man with his knowledge and experience knows full well the unfortunate repercussions it would have had it not been the case.

Israels tactics are plain to see, they use sledge hammers to crack wallnuts. They are a well-equipped army that have a vast array of weaponry, instead of use the appropriate weapon to destroy a flat that harbours a rocket launcher, their tactics include flattening the 12-story building that harbours the launcher!

It was proven on sky news that there was no Hizbollah activity in the building that was flattened in Qana, in which 50 people died, in fact the building where there was activity in Qana was left alone! Its almost humerous for Dan Gillerman o release such ridiculous statements such as:'we mourn with the Lebanese people'. Good at propaganda, better at deception and destruction.

cont..

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 9:02 AM PDT

cont..
If I was to ask the point of destroying the whole of Lebanon, a certain person would probably spout something along the lines of Syrian supplies, though if you look at the map the Lebanese Syrian border is on the North East, why then bother attacking the North West? This war was not about soldiers, nor was it about 1559(by the way not a chapter 7)because Israel have disobeyed more resolutions than

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 9:08 AM PDT

sorry I misread 500000 is the figure, perhaps now you would ike to actually attempt to address some of the issues other than a misquote you disagree with!

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by grazinggoat August 22, 2006 10:48 AM PDT

(...Continued 2)
Israel is considering giving back the Golan Heights, can you imagine... I'm just wondering Y the CBS, ABC, CNN and FOX of this nation are not covering this newer development that would shup-the-KCUF-up mouths of the RonnieHM, Cheungs and other Evangelical-Neo-Cons of this Blog... and Turtle-Face Olmert has stopped (as if he has ever tried before!) the withdrawal from the West-Bank. He's using the West-Bank as bargaining chips. He just cannot give up too much. He is already in catastrophy (S3X scandal of Ramon his minister of defence, S3X scandal of the Israeli President Katsav, And RealEstate scandal of Turtle-face Olmert himself...)...
No wonder Y Israel has not succeeded and will not succeed as long as they have such greedy and sick people on top of it. GOD is there to give and make good share of victories to all his creatures.

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by grazinggoat August 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT

(...continued 1)
Those people in South Lebanon, as much as Lebanese in general) were the originals who were living in this region since the beginning of the history of humans. They just changed, adapted to new realities, generation after the other, a century after the other... They were settled there during the first tribal migrations, then became hittitians, phoenicians, and then to sumarians, arameans, and lastly arabians. Adapting from one invasion through another. Gaining more and more resolve like a bacteria that gains more resistence by being put in contact with others... The type of resistence in this case is military and existentialist . The Southern Lebanese are grounded there for ever. Israel now knows. Israel has started to open negotiation channels with the Syrians. Should have not Lebanese resistence resisted to the Israeli push, the later would have not come to Syria negotiating. (please see continued 2)

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by grazinggoat August 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT

Thanks yall guys for bringing in such nice debate. Its really enriching. One day the History we're making now shall judge the horror of what has been committed by belligerents in the South Lebanon-North Israeli Borders. We all are humans. Everybody gets wrong in decision making. One can say that war is always avoidable. Israelis and Lebanese are CONDEMNED to live one by others proximity. The reslove the Lebanese Resistence has shown is really something. It has surprised many in the world, including the US military head planners. This small under armed militia, being or not being backed by the IRONian regime has realised something no one could expect to the extent that many of you guys agree to say they won this little skirmish ;). They are there to stay forever. History has taught us that an invading nation cannot annihilate another, without inflicting a LOT of damage on itself.
(Please continued 1...)

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by grazinggoat August 22, 2006 11:53 AM PDT

For all of you guys Have a look at this video. You may then see another version of what is going on in hte other side of the world; Just copy and past into your URL space and click go

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html

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by ronniehm August 22, 2006 1:27 PM PDT

Yeah, nice debate. Now let's argue about how Poland was at fault for how they reacted to being surrounded by Nazis. How many German civilians died in World War II? Poor Nazis. Stupid evangelical neo-cons probably blame them for everything.

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by ronniehm August 22, 2006 1:45 PM PDT

" It never pays well to inflame or poison a discussion with personal attacks." -- goat

"...would shup-the-KCUF-up mouths of the RonnieHM, Cheungs and other Evangelical-Neo-Cons of this Blog" -- goat

I guess you win the "debate," but those of us who actually know the difference between debate and hate will win the war. History repeats itself, and the Ottoman Empire already lost once.

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 3:27 PM PDT

Why dont you take a look at the stories Moses, Abraham, Noah, when civilisations got so arrogant as to oppress, murder, and cause much mischeif and greif in the land. Look at what happned to those civilisations, If history repeats itself again, what do you think will happen to ours? In a period of 50 years imagine how many people have died under the Israeli occupation of Palestine!

But hey at least you can say the Israelis have a reasonalably proffessional army, although they have such murderous poliicians, at least the Israelis rape less and dont have places like Abu Ghuraib to their name.

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by reuben110-2009 August 22, 2006 3:28 PM PDT

Why dont you take a look at the stories Moses, Abraham, Noah, when civilisations got so arrogant as to oppress, murder, and cause much mischeif and greif in the land. Look at what happned to those civilisations, If history repeats itself again, what do you think will happen to ours? In a period of 50 years imagine how many people have died under the Israeli occupation of Palestine!

But hey at least you can say the Israelis have a reasonalably proffessional army, although they have such murderous poliicians, at least the Israelis rape less and dont have places like Abu Ghuraib to their name.

Reply to this comment

by ronniehm August 22, 2006 4:44 PM PDT

I would be glad to compare the actions of a few idiots in Iraq to Hezbollah's suicide truck bombing of the American and French barracks in Beirut. Incidentally, that attack was only successful because the Marines at the gate were under orders not to shoot if it might result in a civilian getting killed.

So to compare civilizations, what was the reaction to each incident? We are still investigating and punishing the people responsible. Beirut had a street party. Nothing could possibly make me see Hezbollah as the good guys, and nothing could ever make me see their supporters as civilized.

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[grazinggoat]

What if Lebanese government built a long wall along its border with Israel, 3 feet in Lebanese territory? Would that draw International condemnation?

[lochlan-2009]

It looks like Israel is just itching to start blowing up Lebanese citizens again, now that Bush looks like he tried and accomplished a temporary cease fire. We'll be hearing from our media within a week that a rocket went into Israel with caualties, whether it's true or not they'll have their excuse.

[grazinggoat]

LOCHLAN, it seems to be the case. They will act in duet, Israel on Lebanese Population and its resistence, and GWBush over Iran. See the Oil price has increased significantly since this week end. Very much likely the petroleum industry has decided to go ahead, with the increase in order to finance the USArmy plan and actions in the Middle East. We, poor taxpayers, who have no word saying have to pay despite one's refusal to support war effort.

[ronniehm]

How would it benefit Israel to blow up Lebanese citizens? How does it benefit the US Army to have higher oil prices? Just wondering. P.S. Goat, if you're just going to keep repeating how stupid and ignorant I am, let someone else answer.

[emanualhyman]

Grazingoat, Israels actions are aimed at preventing additional import of arms aimed at Israel. The Hizbula idea of rockets in private houses, if repeated in Lebanon, Gaza, Judea and Samaria would constitute an incredible existential threat to Israel, given the Jihadists proclaimed objective of Israel%u2019s destruction, and the state of war that still exists between Lebanon and Israel following Lebanon%u2019s attack in 1948. Israel%u2019s right of self defense includes preventing introduction of additional weapons in Hizbulas hands. Do I seem to remember the U.S. being nervous about the prospect of Soviet weapons in Cuba? Certainly, Israel has much more to fear from a ring of armed nations round it than the U.S. ever had to fear from Cuba.

[grazinggoat]

RonnieHm, Sorry but you are confusing me with Reuben110. I try not to insult anybody when I commit a comment or an answer. It never pays well to inflame or poison a discussion with personal attacks. Go to Bloomberg.com/energy/ and you'll see the increase in price. Why such an increase for a sudden? There 's no indication of instability. Truce in Lebanon is still holding, Iran is showing its muscles, but that is it, not planning attacks or whatsover. It recently increased it's oil production by 125, 000 barrel per day. There is no oil delivery disruption anywhere in the world, so why is it, this increase? You check it yourself at the gaz pump. Every once there had been a sharp increase in the gaz price, it was followed by a US Army incursion in a country or major US army action in an already occupied one.

Why did Israel at first attack civilians, and civilian infrastructure? What benefited to Israel? Nothing most probably. No gain except in preparation for occupying the Land of Lebanon, because it's part of the Biblical Plan, to occupy the whole middle-east From Mediterranea to Euphratis. This is what's most dangerous, because it's pushed by the whole Neo-Cons/ Evangelicals/ teaming up with the Pro-Israeli lobby in order to push their agenda and plan in the middle-east. That did not work. The Lebanese resistence has stopped them from doing that. I'm sure that they'll retry again, and again.

[ronniehm]

Goat, sorry if I lumped you in with Reuben. I know the price is up about 70 cents today. The generally accepted cause is the announcement by Iran that they intend to ignore the UN on its nuclear program. Anyway, I'm certainly not disputing the price of oil. Number are numbers. What I was wondering is how that 70-cent increase in oil prices will benefit the US Army.

I can't speak for Israel, nor would I try, but the statements out of there suggest that the infrastructure of Hezbollah-run territory was destroyed in order to prevent the arrival of weapons from Syria and Iran. Israel probably feels that had UN resolution 1559 been implemented, we would not be in the situation that we're in today. I agree with that. As for civilians, I saw no indication that Israel targeted civilians. The fact that civilians died does not in itself prove that they were targeted unless you are also injecting your own opinion of Israel into the conclusion. As I understand it, Israeli strikes that killed civilians were generally in tune with the locations of Hezbollah rocket launchers. But that's neither here nor there. My question was how does it benefit Israel to kill civilians? If there's no obvious benefit to Israel, it seems unlikely that it was Israel's goal. Occupying Lebanon is not a likely goal because Israel had already done that and left years ago. Besides, killing civlians on purpose would not help to achieve that goal. It would hinder that goal.

[ronniehm]

I'd ask how Lebanese civilian casualties benefit Hezbollah, but I already know that answer. It's why that "massacre" was initially reported as 40 dead civilians, when in fact only one guy died. It's why photos of rescue operations are staged (badly). It's why missiles are added to images of planes flying overhead. If the Israelis were such butchers, such exaggerations would hardly be necessary.

[abe124]

The havoc wreaked on Lebanon is perhaps a million times more than what Israelis suffered. And yet most Israelis feel victimized. It is this sort of irony that has provoked some quarters around the world to question the exaggerated statistics whenever the Jews are the likely victims. I love the Jews but their statistics are questionable whenever they happen to be a beneficiary of such inflated data.

[peace_missio]

Israel is terrorist country and US is harboring and providing weapons to these terrorists, Who ever kills civilians is a terrorist.

PEACE.

[ronniehm]

But Abe, didn't you hear? Hezbollah won.

[reuben110-2009]

Oh dear Ronnie,allow me to correct you once again if I may, as you are sarcastically claiming Hizbollah won.

Hizbollah did actualy win. Had Olmert been informed as to how the war would unfold, he would have been insane to have conducted it. Had he been told, you will not secure the release of the 2 captured soldiers, you will not disarm Hizbolah, you will be forced into a ceasefire, you will evoke mass support for Hizbollah to the extent they may very well dominate Lebanese politicss, you will draft in reservists who have not thrown greandes in 15 years, you will equip them poorly to the extent that they will pittifully have to drink from a Hizbollah canteen, that you soldiers communications will be so bad that the soldiers will shoot each other believing they are facing Israeli disguised Hizbollah guerillas, had he been informed that there would be violent protests in places as obscure as Manilla, had he been informed how badly his ratings would suffer,had he been informed that he would be unable to take al manar off the air, had he been informed that on the very last day of war Israel would still be unale to intercept 250 rockets with Iraelis living in terror...do you think he would have conducted it?

Ronnie you are being silly (censored) you are looking at it from the erspective of Israel vs Lebanon, not Israel versus Hizbollah...wake up my friend!

[reuben110-2009]

Oh dear Ronnie,allow me to correct you once again if I may, as you are sarcastically claiming Hizbollah won.

Hizbollah did actualy win. Had Olmert been informed as to how the war would unfold, he would have been insane to have conducted it. Had he been told, you will not secure the release of the 2 captured soldiers, you will not disarm Hizbolah, you will be forced into a ceasefire, you will evoke mass support for Hizbollah to the extent they may very well dominate Lebanese politicss, you will draft in reservists who have not thrown greandes in 15 years, you will equip them poorly to the extent that they will pittifully have to drink from a Hizbollah canteen, that you soldiers communications will be so bad that the soldiers will shoot each other believing they are facing Israeli disguised Hizbollah guerillas, had he been informed that there would be violent protests in places as obscure as Manilla, had he been informed how badly his ratings would suffer,had he been informed that he would be unable to take al manar off the air, had he been informed that on the very last day of war Israel would still be unale to intercept 250 rockets with Iraelis living in terror...do you think he would have conducted it?

Ronnie you are being silly (censored) you are looking at it from the erspective of Israel vs Lebanon, not Israel versus Hizbollah...wake up my friend!

[reuben110-2009]

Oh and the aspect you and the Israelis care about the least...had he been told that you will displace 5million, kill 1000 civillians(mostly women and children) and injure at least 3000 without achieveing the objectives you started the campaign with..can you really say its been worth it?

I would like you to be so kind as to consider a parrallel, had England decided in the 80s as it too was facing the very dangerous IRA(based in North) to bomb cities such as Dublin and Corke on the basis that IRA members were partially based there, had Britain killed 1000 Irish displaced 5 million in that procss whilst refusing to allow aid in...Had they done that, do you not think there would have been world wide outrage? Perhaps this will help your understanding as to why Israel is percieved as a butcherer, If that doesnt cut it for be sure to holler, there are a plethora of reasons...ask and you shall recieve...(If i have the spare time to wait around and see what your response is)

[johnny51214]

Ronnie, time to pack up bro, we all witnessed and cringed upon the last embarrasement you suffered at the hands of this guy last time.You cant have it both ways, your side is more poweful that is a victory for you dont get greedy..and try to claim righteousness simultaniously...before you embarass yourself once again!

[ronniehm]

Wow, 5 million displaced people in a country with a population of less than 4 million. Yeah, I guess you won.

[reuben110-2009]

I have read claims, and i need not specify the point of origin before it is percieved that I have a personal vendetta..that Israel do not taret civillians.

When a man with the stature of Kofi Annan claims i front of a world audience that Israel intentionally attacked the UN, Im sure that he is sure that they did, for a man with his knowledge and experience knows full well the unfortunate repercussions it would have had it not been the case.

Israels tactics are plain to see, they use sledge hammers to crack wallnuts. They are a well-equipped army that have a vast array of weaponry, instead of use the appropriate weapon to destroy a flat that harbours a rocket launcher, their tactics include flattening the 12-story building that harbours the launcher!

It was proven on sky news that there was no Hizbollah activity in the building that was flattened in Qana, in which 50 people died, in fact the building where there was activity in Qana was left alone! Its almost humerous for Dan Gillerman o release such ridiculous statements such as:'we mourn with the Lebanese people'. Good at propaganda, better at deception and destruction.

cont..

[reuben110-2009]

cont..
If I was to ask the point of destroying the whole of Lebanon, a certain person would probably spout something along the lines of Syrian supplies, though if you look at the map the Lebanese Syrian border is on the North East, why then bother attacking the North West? This war was not about soldiers, nor was it about 1559(by the way not a chapter 7)because Israel have disobeyed more resolutions than

[reuben110-2009]

sorry I misread 500000 is the figure, perhaps now you would ike to actually attempt to address some of the issues other than a misquote you disagree with!

[grazinggoat]

(...Continued 2)
Israel is considering giving back the Golan Heights, can you imagine... I'm just wondering Y the CBS, ABC, CNN and FOX of this nation are not covering this newer development that would shup-the-KCUF-up mouths of the RonnieHM, Cheungs and other Evangelical-Neo-Cons of this Blog... and Turtle-Face Olmert has stopped (as if he has ever tried before!) the withdrawal from the West-Bank. He's using the West-Bank as bargaining chips. He just cannot give up too much. He is already in catastrophy (S3X scandal of Ramon his minister of defence, S3X scandal of the Israeli President Katsav, And RealEstate scandal of Turtle-face Olmert himself...)...
No wonder Y Israel has not succeeded and will not succeed as long as they have such greedy and sick people on top of it. GOD is there to give and make good share of victories to all his creatures.

[grazinggoat]

(...continued 1)
Those people in South Lebanon, as much as Lebanese in general) were the originals who were living in this region since the beginning of the history of humans. They just changed, adapted to new realities, generation after the other, a century after the other... They were settled there during the first tribal migrations, then became hittitians, phoenicians, and then to sumarians, arameans, and lastly arabians. Adapting from one invasion through another. Gaining more and more resolve like a bacteria that gains more resistence by being put in contact with others... The type of resistence in this case is military and existentialist . The Southern Lebanese are grounded there for ever. Israel now knows. Israel has started to open negotiation channels with the Syrians. Should have not Lebanese resistence resisted to the Israeli push, the later would have not come to Syria negotiating. (please see continued 2)

[grazinggoat]

Thanks yall guys for bringing in such nice debate. Its really enriching. One day the History we're making now shall judge the horror of what has been committed by belligerents in the South Lebanon-North Israeli Borders. We all are humans. Everybody gets wrong in decision making. One can say that war is always avoidable. Israelis and Lebanese are CONDEMNED to live one by others proximity. The reslove the Lebanese Resistence has shown is really something. It has surprised many in the world, including the US military head planners. This small under armed militia, being or not being backed by the IRONian regime has realised something no one could expect to the extent that many of you guys agree to say they won this little skirmish ;). They are there to stay forever. History has taught us that an invading nation cannot annihilate another, without inflicting a LOT of damage on itself.
(Please continued 1...)

[grazinggoat]

For all of you guys Have a look at this video. You may then see another version of what is going on in hte other side of the world; Just copy and past into your URL space and click go

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html

[ronniehm]

Yeah, nice debate. Now let's argue about how Poland was at fault for how they reacted to being surrounded by Nazis. How many German civilians died in World War II? Poor Nazis. Stupid evangelical neo-cons probably blame them for everything.

[ronniehm]

" It never pays well to inflame or poison a discussion with personal attacks." -- goat

"...would shup-the-KCUF-up mouths of the RonnieHM, Cheungs and other Evangelical-Neo-Cons of this Blog" -- goat

I guess you win the "debate," but those of us who actually know the difference between debate and hate will win the war. History repeats itself, and the Ottoman Empire already lost once.

[reuben110-2009]

Why dont you take a look at the stories Moses, Abraham, Noah, when civilisations got so arrogant as to oppress, murder, and cause much mischeif and greif in the land. Look at what happned to those civilisations, If history repeats itself again, what do you think will happen to ours? In a period of 50 years imagine how many people have died under the Israeli occupation of Palestine!

But hey at least you can say the Israelis have a reasonalably proffessional army, although they have such murderous poliicians, at least the Israelis rape less and dont have places like Abu Ghuraib to their name.

[reuben110-2009]

Why dont you take a look at the stories Moses, Abraham, Noah, when civilisations got so arrogant as to oppress, murder, and cause much mischeif and greif in the land. Look at what happned to those civilisations, If history repeats itself again, what do you think will happen to ours? In a period of 50 years imagine how many people have died under the Israeli occupation of Palestine!

But hey at least you can say the Israelis have a reasonalably proffessional army, although they have such murderous poliicians, at least the Israelis rape less and dont have places like Abu Ghuraib to their name.

[ronniehm]

I would be glad to compare the actions of a few idiots in Iraq to Hezbollah's suicide truck bombing of the American and French barracks in Beirut. Incidentally, that attack was only successful because the Marines at the gate were under orders not to shoot if it might result in a civilian getting killed.

So to compare civilizations, what was the reaction to each incident? We are still investigating and punishing the people responsible. Beirut had a street party. Nothing could possibly make me see Hezbollah as the good guys, and nothing could ever make me see their supporters as civilized.