Text Of Democratic Debate (4)

Four Presidential Hopefuls Spar In New York City

(CBS)  BUMILLER: Are you a liberal?

KERRY: Let me just...

BUMILLER: Are you a liberal?

KERRY: ... to the characterization. I mean, look, labels are so silly in American politics.

I was one of the first Democrats in the United States Senate in 1985 to join with Fritz Hollings in deficit reduction. Now, does that make me a conservative?

I fought to put 100,000 police officers on the streets of America. Am I a conservative?

BUMILLER: But, Senator Kerry, the question is...

KERRY: I know. You don't let us finish answering questions.

BUMILLER: You're in New York.

(LAUGHTER)

KERRY: Well, I'm going to fight for it. And that's exactly what I'm going to do, I'm going to fight for it.

BUMILLER: All right.

KERRY: Do you know what they measured in that? First of all, they measured 62 votes. I voted 37 times; 25 votes they didn't even count because I wasn't there to vote for them.

Secondly, secondly, they counted my voting against the Medicare bill, which is a terrible bill for seniors in America, they called that being liberal. Lots of conservatives voted against that.

In addition, they counted my voting against George Bush's tax cut that we can't afford. I thought it was fiscally conservative to vote against George Bush's tax cut. They call it liberal.

BUMILLER: Is this a helpful characterization in this campaign?

KERRY: I think it's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

KUCINICH: Let me answer directly. I'm liberal, and I'm co- chairman of the Progressive Caucus in the United States Congress. And as such, I stand for full-employment economy, universal health care, protection of Social Security, canceling NAFTA and the WTO, creating a Department of Peace.

These are the kinds of things that relate to creating a sustainable society where people can have peace and prosperity simultaneously.

RATHER: Congressman, do you consider Senator Kerry a liberal by your definition?

KUCINICH: I think it's important to hear how the senator describes himself.

RATHER: But my question is, how do you describe him? Is he a liberal?

KUCINICH: I don't think so, because he voted for the war. He voted for the Patriot Act. He supported NAFTA and the WTO. I would say that...

RATHER: Reverend Sharpton, do you consider Senator Kerry a liberal?

SHARPTON: No. I think that anyone -- if you want to use George Bush as the definition of conservative, most of America is liberal now, because most of America would vote against Bush.

(LAUGHTER)

So in that broad definition, he is.

But I think that compared to some of us, no. I think we've made ourselves clear on that.

But I don't think -- "liberal" is going to lose this dirty name in 2004, because George Bush has so let down what conservative -- I remember when conservatives were respectable.

BUMILLER: Thank you, yes.

RATHER: Senator Edwards, I want to...

EDWARDS: May I respond to just to this question, Dan...

RATHER: Sure.

EDWARDS: ... because all three others have.

RATHER: Well, I'm coming to you. Are you a liberal?

EDWARDS: I don't believe anybody -- this is actually a subject that John and I agree about. I don't think anybody in America cares about what some inside-Washington publication says about your ideology.

What they care about is: What are your values, where you come from, what do you believe in, and who are you fighting for? And do you understand the real world and the problems that people face every day in their life? That's what the people of the United States are looking for.

KIRTZMAN: Let me pick on that.

EDWARDS: This president...

KIRTZMAN: Senator Edwards...

EDWARDS: ... this president does not understand what's going on in people's lives. He is completely out of touch.

I wish he would so one day what the four of us do every single day, which is go out, campaign, conduct town-hall meetings, not ticketed events, not when you make people pay $2,000 to get in the door, but actual real people and listening to what their problems are.

This president does not know what's going on in the real world.

KERRY: Can I say one other thing?

RATHER: If it's brief.

KERRY: Well, I will be brief. But is this president a legitimate Republican or conservative? Because there's nothing conservative about driving deficits up as far as the eye can see.

There's nothing conservative about trampling on the line of division between church and state in America.

There is nothing conservative about letting your attorney general trample on civil liberties and civil rights, and be twice cited by his own inspector general for doing so.

This administration is extreme. And I believe we're offering America mainstream American values.

RATHER: But, if you will, Andrew has a question and I wanted to get to it. But I let me pick up on that and what Senator Edwards said.

The latest poll I've seen shows that a combination, that a Kerry- Edwards ticket or an Edwards-Kerry ticket, would at this moment get more votes than a Bush-Cheney ticket. It would be stronger than either one of you, Senator Kerry or Senator Edwards, running alone, and Reverend Sharpton, with you or the congressman alone.

My question is, Senator Kerry, are you prepared here and now to say, if you get the nomination, you will run with John Edwards and that's a strong ticket?

KERRY: No, and I don't think John Edwards would be prepared to say that he would necessarily run with me.

RATHER: Would you, Senator Edwards?

EDWARDS: I think there's no way to say that. We're still in a fight for the nomination.

KERRY: We're vying for the nomination.

KUCINICH: And let me say why neither Senator Kerry nor my good friend, Senator Edwards, would be appropriate as nominees: Because they supported the president on the war, said there were weapons of mass destruction, which you actually embroidered, Senator Kerry.

And you know what? Think of the 2004 debate, standing next to President Bush where he says, "Oh, look, I said there were weapons. Senator, you said there were weapons. I was for the war; you supported the war. I was for the occupation; you supported the occupation. And Senator, thank you, you want to send more troops to the armed services."

You know what? I'm in the best position to challenge this president, because the war should be the singular issue. They lied to get the American people to accept the war. We have 130,000 troops there who are still at risk. We've spent over $200 billion of money that's needed for our domestic agenda. Over 10,000 Iraqis have lost their lives.

I mean, this war ought to be the single issue. And frankly, John...

BUMILLER: Let me ask a question about Iraq. I have an Iraq question.

KIRTZMAN: This morning you have -- go ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

KERRY: You're having to work to get in.

(LAUGHTER)

KIRTZMAN: Tough crowd.

Senator Edwards, through the campaign, and again this morning, you have spoken very eloquently and movingly about the fight against the rich and the powerful on behalf of the working class. And yet, you yourself are rich and powerful. You're worth upwards of $36 million. You have a $4 million house in Georgetown, a $1 million beachhouse in North Carolina, a $1 million home in Raleigh.

Do you think your supporters know that you live this way?

EDWARDS: Well, first of all, in fairness, if you're going to list our assets, I hope you'll list John Kerry's too...

(LAUGHTER)

... because he's got a lot more than I've got.

CROSSTALK)

EDWARDS: Here's the truth. The truth is that I come from the same place most Americans have come from. I grew up in a family where my father worked in the mill, working -- didn't make me any different than most people in this country. I mean, he worked hard, he had a high school education. I was the first person in my family to go to college.

KIRTZMAN: But they've heard that part, but have they heard the other part, is the question.

KUCINICH: Why should that disqualify him? I mean, that's crazy. You know what? He has spoken...

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: John, let me defend you on this.

(LAUGHTER)

Because I'm saying that the fact that he's speaking about these issues relating to two Americas, that there's poverty in this country, and those issues ought to be addressed, I'm glad you're talking about it, John, and I...

SHARPTON: And I am, too. But I think, Andrew, the point is...

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: I will let you finish, like you did me.

I think the point is, though, the reason I say there's more than two Americas is because he could come from there to where he is. And many of us can't because of other obstacles: because of race, because of sex, because of sexual orientation.

So the reason I disagree with just two Americas is, he could go from a mill to $36 million. Many people can't do it.

And I might add, there was nothing more biased in the South than some of those mill towns, where some of us couldn't even work in the mills.

So I think that his story should be told, but it should be told in the broader context of why everyone can't have the same kind of achievement.

(CROSSTALK)

KIRTZMAN: I've got to interrupt you, because Dennis was defending...

(CROSSTALK)

KIRTZMAN: I will give you the turn. I just want to remind you of the question that I...

EDWARDS: I remember the question.

KIRTZMAN: Do you think your supporters know you live this way?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir, I think that most of them do. They know I've done very well.

And the truth is this. Let me just put this in the simplest terms I know how. I come from the same place that most Americans come from. I am running for president of the United States so that millions of American get the same chances that I've had. I mean, it's just that simple.

And Al Sharpton is completely right about one thing. This is not just wealth and class. It's race -- we have two health-care systems in America. We have two public school systems. We have two governments, one for the insiders and the lobbyists and one for everybody else.

What this is about for me, in its simplest terms, is trying to make sure that other Americans get the same chance that I've had.

I don't want to see us, those of us who've had the great luck to have done pretty well in this country, to pull the ladder up behind us. We want to make it available to more people, no matter where they live, who their family is or what the color of their skin is.

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